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Rune and Sigil testing for glass builds


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#31 velourfog

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 09:25 PM

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but unfortunately weapon swap and air/fire sigils don't work together.  Every time I swapped sigil of intelligence, air and fire would not proc for at least 5 seconds, although it may have been 10 (the weapon swap cooldown).  Even worse, if air/fire just procced, the weapon swap sigil wouldn't even work.  Hopefully this is a bug, although it seems like they're secretly trying to reduce bursty sigil combinations.

For now it seems like the only reliable way to not interfere with any cooldowns is to take a % increase sigil, although who knows if they stop working when another one is on cooldown.  Anet needs to rework sigils to make the dual wield restrictions less ambiguous.

Also a side note on the air vs fire discussion, with over 2300 power air consistently did about 150 more damage than fire (varied by armor and %damage modifiers).  I never got one of those double fire procs either, so air is better for pure single target dps and fire is better for AoE, but also not bad for single target.

#32 pestizide

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 07:37 AM

I went with all divinity.  It seems well rounded.  Decent damage gain and a bit of tough/vitality/healing etc never hurt anyone.  I am also running a balanced build.. so it seemed like the logical way.

#33 justOneWord

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 01:51 PM

How would you rank 5% damage increase versus Lightning Strike if you could only choose one? Rather naive and theoretical, but if you could hit your enemy 20 times for 1000 each in a time frame of 20 seconds, you would do 20 000 damage. 5% would bring that to 21 000. If Lightning Strike would proc as often as it could in the same amount of time you would do 20 000 + 4 x 1000 damage.

Does a Lightning Strike proccing every 5 seconds add more damage than 5% even in praxis?

#34 Dairuiner

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 04:08 PM

View PostKutsus, on 29 September 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Share the same internal cooldown means that if your sigil of rage goes off and you have a sigil of air on the other weapon, neither will proc for 45 seconds because the sigil of rage has a 45s cooldown.

That's very interesting, and makes the $1,000,000 question this:

Suppose you have the sigil of rage in your main weaponset and sigil of air on your shortbow....  if sigil of rage procs, and you then weapon swap to your bow, is the sigil of air still on the 45 second cooldown?  If so, you'd never want to run ANY other proc sigil on EITHER weaponset if you're using a sigil of rage.

EDIT: WOW, I just tested this and it's true.  If you proc sigil of rage, no other sigil will proc on EITHER weaponset for 45 seconds. This INCLUDES sigils that proc ON weapon swap (sigil of superior energy/superior battle). That's pretty huge.

Good info in this thread!

Edited by Dairuiner, 14 October 2012 - 04:19 PM.


#35 Kutsus

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 04:43 PM

View PostDairuiner, on 14 October 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

That's very interesting, and makes the $1,000,000 question this:

Suppose you have the sigil of rage in your main weaponset and sigil of air on your shortbow....  if sigil of rage procs, and you then weapon swap to your bow, is the sigil of air still on the 45 second cooldown?  If so, you'd never want to run ANY other proc sigil on EITHER weaponset if you're using a sigil of rage.

EDIT: WOW, I just tested this and it's true.  If you proc sigil of rage, no other sigil will proc on EITHER weaponset for 45 seconds. This INCLUDES sigils that proc ON weapon swap (sigil of superior energy/superior battle). That's pretty huge.

Good info in this thread!

This is true info.

Typically I run bloodlust on shortbow, then air or fire + force on my 1hers. This has returned the most total benefit for me so far, while working around the shared internal cooldowns across the board.

#36 velourfog

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 02:21 AM

View PostjustOneWord, on 14 October 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

How would you rank 5% damage increase versus Lightning Strike if you could only choose one? Rather naive and theoretical, but if you could hit your enemy 20 times for 1000 each in a time frame of 20 seconds, you would do 20 000 damage. 5% would bring that to 21 000. If Lightning Strike would proc as often as it could in the same amount of time you would do 20 000 + 4 x 1000 damage.

Does a Lightning Strike proccing every 5 seconds add more damage than 5% even in praxis?

That's not a very good example because that's not a lot of damage in 20 seconds.  You would definitely do more damage with air than force.  To figure out which is better you need to calculate how many procs you will likely get in a certain amount of time.  Take your crit chance, number of attacks per rotation, 30% proc chance, and the 5 sec cooldown into consideration.  Then figure out how much total damage you do during that rotation.  Compare the proc damage to 5% more damage and you have your answer.

Also don't forget that you probably won't get a proc every 5 seconds.  Backstab thieves, for example, get off about 6 hits every 5 seconds.  After doing the maths you should get a proc every 7.5 seconds, depending on your crit of course.

In the case of thieves, air will always do more damage.

Edited by velourfog, 15 October 2012 - 02:26 AM.


#37 IDarko

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:56 AM

Dayum, i need to drop sigil of rage then. That's a bug that is hurting my damage output a lot i think.

#38 chillchilla

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:04 AM

What about Exquisite Ruby Jewels? 6 of them give 150 power, 65 precision and +18% crit dmg.
Am I missing something about jewels? Is there a reason not to use them?

#39 Shishusha

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:22 AM

Exquisite are only for jewels. You could use ruby orb although but with less numbers

#40 Kogarashi

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:57 AM

May I ask something a little off-topic?
I have 2 bows equiped on my character.
The first bow has Superior Sigil of Luck (gain .6 Magic Find each time I kill a foe (max 25 stacks) and my second bow has Superior Sigil of Perception (gain +10 percision each time I kill a foe (25 stacks). If I will gain 25 stacks from Sigil of Luck and then swap my bow to the other one (Sigil of Perception) will I gain +10 percision AND keep the Magic Find I gained from Sigil of Luck?

#41 Gaaroth

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:26 AM

nope those kind of sigils drop their stacked effects on "downed" and "weapon swap" AFAIK ;)

Edited by Gaaroth, 16 October 2012 - 11:26 AM.


#42 stefanplc

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:30 AM

Ruby Orbs:
120 power, +12% Crit Damage, 84 Precision

That feels like it's pretty up there stats wise, a contender for top 2 choices.

I'm actually inclining towards using Ruby Orbs myself. I play a SB thief, rarely switching to a second weapon set and these stats look much better for me. I'm also using Sigil of Rage so higher crit chance means more procs.

#43 chillchilla

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:42 AM

So for full berserker p/p+sb thief should i go for scholar or ruby orbs? Somehow orbs look better for me, but i dont really know.

#44 Kutsus

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:45 PM

View Postchillchilla, on 16 October 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

So for full berserker p/p+sb thief should i go for scholar or ruby orbs? Somehow orbs look better for me, but i dont really know.

View Poststefanplc, on 16 October 2012 - 11:30 AM, said:

Ruby Orbs:
120 power, +12% Crit Damage, 84 Precision

That feels like it's pretty up there stats wise, a contender for top 2 choices.

I'm actually inclining towards using Ruby Orbs myself. I play a SB thief, rarely switching to a second weapon set and these stats look much better for me. I'm also using Sigil of Rage so higher crit chance means more procs.

I like ruby orbs, they are a strong contender and beat divinity for DPS. I personally prefer scholar b/c I find myself >90% life the majority of my time spent in WvW and they still outpace the Ruby Orbs pretty substantially in that situation.

#45 stefanplc

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:48 PM

View PostKutsus, on 16 October 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

I like ruby orbs, they are a strong contender and beat divinity for DPS. I personally prefer scholar b/c I find myself >90% life the majority of my time spent in WvW and they still outpace the Ruby Orbs pretty substantially in that situation.

Under 90% the Ruby Orbs are better though aren't they?

#46 Kutsus

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:51 PM

View Poststefanplc, on 16 October 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

Under 90% the Ruby Orbs are better though aren't they?

Did you read what I wrote?

#47 stefanplc

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:32 PM

View PostKutsus, on 16 October 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Did you read what I wrote?

"I personally prefer scholar b/c I find myself >90% life the majority of my time spent in WvW and they still outpace the Ruby Orbs pretty substantially in that situation."

You basically said twice that the scholar are better than the rubies above 90% HP

#48 chillchilla

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 02:33 PM

Did you do some serious testing with orbs?
Could you add some numbers (dmg) to compare them with runes?

#49 Kutsus

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:57 PM

The gold cost of doing an orb test would be prohibitive because all of the other rune tests would have to be redone with PvE equipment as well in order for comparison. I'm not sure if there are steady weapons even available in PVE zones, guessing there must be somewhere.

All of the testing in the OP was done in the mists where it was free.

Using the other testing as a reference point, you're probably looking at 64-65 non-crit damage, and 142-144 or so on the crit damage. You'd also need to consider in the ~4.2% crit chance.

Edited by Kutsus, 16 October 2012 - 05:06 PM.


#50 realmisr

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:00 PM

For a burst bs build, I'm wondering if using D/D with Sup Air + Sup Battle (3 stacks of might on switch) would be better than Sup Force (5% dmg)...

#51 Kutsus

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 07:45 PM

View Postrealmisr, on 16 October 2012 - 07:00 PM, said:

For a burst bs build, I'm wondering if using D/D with Sup Air + Sup Battle (3 stacks of might on switch) would be better than Sup Force (5% dmg)...

Read the below quoted post from earlier in this thread:

View Postvelourfog, on 03 October 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

I don't think this has been mentioned yet, but unfortunately weapon swap and air/fire sigils don't work together. Every time I swapped sigil of intelligence, air and fire would not proc for at least 5 seconds, although it may have been 10 (the weapon swap cooldown). Even worse, if air/fire just procced, the weapon swap sigil wouldn't even work. Hopefully this is a bug, although it seems like they're secretly trying to reduce bursty sigil combinations.

For now it seems like the only reliable way to not interfere with any cooldowns is to take a % increase sigil, although who knows if they stop working when another one is on cooldown. Anet needs to rework sigils to make the dual wield restrictions less ambiguous.

Edited by Kutsus, 16 October 2012 - 07:45 PM.


#52 ilJumper

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 08:07 PM

Sigil of Force 5% more Damage vs Sigil of Bloodlust?

#53 realmisr

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:07 PM

View PostKutsus, on 16 October 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Read the below quoted post from earlier in this thread:

This is untrue, I just tested it and swapping to d/d with air/battle did not make them share c/ds.

Edited by realmisr, 16 October 2012 - 09:07 PM.


#54 Kutsus

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:16 PM

View Postrealmisr, on 16 October 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

This is untrue, I just tested it and swapping to d/d with air/battle did not make them share c/ds.

I tested it myself after reading velourfog's post and it has been confirmed by other posters as well. May I ask what you're doing to test?

#55 brunpal

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:00 AM

Has anyone tested damage between major/superior sigils?

For example, a sigil of fire has a 10%- 20%- 30% rate of activation on crit with a 5 sec internal cooldown. Do the better versions do more damage when they activate?

There's a point where you are criting so often that the only thing that really matters is the 5 sec internal cooldown.

#56 realmisr

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 12:12 AM

View PostKutsus, on 16 October 2012 - 09:16 PM, said:

I tested it myself after reading velourfog's post and it has been confirmed by other posters as well. May I ask what you're doing to test?

Hmm, I'll go back to test it again to see.


Back to the topic:

I'm still debating whether to use sig of rage or sig of air. Air obviously procs more often and does roughly 1.5-2k dmg, but when rage does proc(and it will), you're pretty much guaranteed a kill...3 secs of quickness for a 45sec c/d is pretty much using Haste minus 1 sec...you actually have a better c/d with the trait. Not to mention quickness = faster stomps. The 45s CD is actually great synergy with my d/d BS build, since basilisk also has a 45s c/d and as do assassin's signet.

I'll have to test this more.

Edited by realmisr, 19 October 2012 - 12:15 AM.


#57 Fade_Guin

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 07:37 PM

Some fun P/P sigil thoughts:

I spent the afternoon testing Sigil of Superior Strength on a power/crit WvW pistol/pistol roaming build.

Some basic stats:

25 in Deadly arts
Sigil of Superior Bloodlust
Sigil of Superior Strength (30% to proc might on crit)
Power of Inertia (might on dodge)
Ghost Pepper Poppers (40% chance to proc might for 10 seconds on crit during the day time, procs chill during the evenings)

Base Attack (counting the 25 stack of Bloodlust): 3554

Testing on various high health creatures, like the grub in EB, Grenth etc. , I was able to maintain right around 8-10 stacks of might with unload and dodging around. I frequently saw 4k attack during the longer fights.

This test was more for fun than anything, because I don't think it would be possible to maintain that sort of stacking in WvW or pvp, but I figured it might give others some ideas for some out of the box thinking.

Edited by Fade_Guin, 19 October 2012 - 07:48 PM.


#58 realmisr

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 06:59 AM

I'm gonna try out the Air set tomorrow (armor) since lowell uses it. He says the lightning proc crits for 5k, but I think it might not be worth sacrificing all that power + overall dmg for (like scholar)

Edited by realmisr, 20 October 2012 - 06:59 AM.


#59 Kutsus

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:43 PM

Runes of the pack proc still does not work on attacking (attacked AOE dummies for 5+ minutes with shortbow) and the 3rd set bonus +50 power is still broken.

#60 Kogarashi

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 02:38 PM

For Dagger/Dagger (critical dmg build) which sigils you suggest me to put in my daggers?
Does the damage of Superior of Sigil of Fire depends on your condition damage?




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