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Is magic find as a game mechanic even necessary?

magic find mechanic

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#61 Wordsworth

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 12:18 PM

They won't do anything. Not only is this not the ANet forum, I doubt the argument, "I don't like people using MF," will ever warrant any change by ANet.

This discussion only really matters in dungeons, and in dungeons a crap player is going to be crap no matter what he's wearing, and a good player will be good. You probably don't even notice if anyone is wearing MF, ever. Never mind the fact that you can easily be an elitist and call for a gear check if you're really that anal about it, the perceived problem and its solution are with the players already.

On the off-chance that someone wears a MF set with the exact same skin as his "real" set then you're out of luck, I guess.

#62 Ostra

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 12:49 AM

I just created my magic find set, using it only in Cursed shore farming DEs. Although I use it... I too would love to see it gone.

its not a case of others using it and thus not being "optimal" when playing with me, frankly I dont care as long as they know how to play if their gear isnt exotics. Its a case of the economic model says if I want to be able to get money, i NEED to be on equal footing with an equal chance to get the level of money that is becoming common. 2-4g a day running an hour or so is a lot when most dungeons still give what 30silver per run? add in drops and this MIGHT give 1 gold on average

Figure average player can do at most 1 dungeon every 2 days. Compare that to someone farming with magic gear for the same time period and the farming is simply a lot more profitable. Without magic gear it would probably be closer to the dungeon running.

So thus that farm with MF will simply have 50% more money or more then those without MF over the course of a longer period. That is my main beef with MF.

#63 RyuuAkari

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:10 AM

As all of the post above you should read this to get an idea where the MF set does work... (it is stated BY an areananet employee...)
http://www.guildwars...ic-find-chests/

As mention above... the only  reasonable place to use that set is to kill mobs to get potential better crafting materials, and loot. A sample would be in cursed shore where these events comes with hordes of mobs... that's the only place I personally find Magic Find gear worth having on, or any area that have hordes of mobs coming running towards you.

Why run MF gear in dungeon? You going to hope for a better drop from the trash mob? is that is? what about the bosses? they don't drop anything at all (or just more trash and rarely any rare). In dungeons you run the build/ gear that makes a good balance of offence and sustain.

2nd of all why would you run MF in wvw...? isn't the idea to deal potential damage and have enough sustain in a long termed battle in this zergfest?

No really... before anyone comment on MF they should be sure of where it does work and where it doesn't work. cause clearly... it makes this discusion much easier, when people get the idea it only works on MOBS.

#64 notum

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 01:47 AM

you should never have to gimp yourself to get better loot. period. bad game mechanic IMO.

There are already consumables, banners and other guild buffs. we don't need MF on armor and weapons.

#65 Gremlin

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 02:02 AM

Lots of rubbish posted about the rights and wrongs of MF whether its necessary why anet created it etc.
Wordsworth has the right of it a good player will play good and a bad player will play bad irrespective of the build.
I predict if this keeps up they will either drastically change the way the dungeons work or there will be AI assistance be it mercs or heroes by this time next year.

Problem comes from the comparatively few players who tweak  their characters till they get the last 0.0001 point damage out of it then insist playing any other way is wrong.
The same theory leads to lots of players unable to get on dungeon parties or finish some parts of the map.
Its elitism in its most extreme form, anet may have got rid of the trinity but they haven't managed to rid us of the real barrier to cooperative gaming.

Magic find gives better loot, the game doesn't run on dungeon completion or wvw it runs on cold hard cash, be in in game gold or real currency.
Creating a great big hoohah over something as unimportant as MF is just silly, so you take 3 minutes longer to do a dungeon so what if you have to work a little harder to win.

#66 Graystone

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:08 PM

Magic find is a necessity in the sense that ANet wants incredibly low % drops for rare + items. There has to be a legitimate way to increase it without giving everyone magic find. It does more harm than good though, I am guilty of only having one set of gear. After reading this though I will look into having a second set.

#67 Achilles Tennyson

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:00 AM

GW1 had many aspects of it where there was really only one option that was far and away the best choice to make. A "dominant strategy" you could call it (in reference to game theory).

I believe magic find is one of those things for GW2. If everyone used magic find, then everyone would have an easier time buying fixed-price items (unless Anet adjusts) and an equally difficult time buying anything sold on the TP. For those in the know, it makes life even easier, and the less people that know about MF the better for those of us who do hehe

#68 ashleigh mcmahon

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 01:54 AM

+1 to OP.

Why do i need to swap my gear set to find better loot?

Loot should be set at the same % regardless of your gear.

#69 Nephele

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 02:10 AM

It's a (very poor) mechanic designed to increase the amount of gear you have to buy for your character. Basically to make crafting more important and increase trade through the TP. MF doesn't make your farming better, it just sets the values to what Anet thinks they should be in the first place.

I'm actually not totally against things like the guild buff and guild banner giving MF, as long as it's in small quantities. 15% is fine, 150% is not. The food buffs and gear should never have been in the game. They punish casuals who either don't know they should have MF or don't want to spend the gold to buy MF gear and food. MF benefits the hardcore farmer over the casual, which is exactly what you don't want to do. The hardcore players already know more profitable ways to farm, throwing MF gear into the equation just adds to the imbalance.

#70 Relair

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 02:31 AM

They should have just added a luck stat instead of precision that increases MF, crit chance etc all in one, so people wouldn't need a whole second set of gear just for grinding.  Most of the people that want MF seem to be glass cannon dps farming kings that would have alot of precision anyway.

#71 Requiamer

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 07:54 AM

I like magic find, i think the idea to implement it was great. The only thing i don't really like is that the number go up to 250% and maybe more so you really feel like you need it in pve, and second it is magic find or an important stat. Somehow i think it should have been an extra.

#72 Alleji

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 12:03 PM

I'm not convinced magic find gear is even worth it. You reduce your damage output, tag less mobs and get less vendor drops as a result.

#73 Lady Rhonwyn

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:40 AM

View PostWordsworth, on 08 November 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

Also, Lol@people who think using MF means you're not pulling your weight. Guess no one without Lvl 80 non-MF exotics should be playing dungeons or WvW, then. Apparently this game revolves around numbers, and skill and knowledge account for nothing.

Indeed.  As I "only" have a Knight's Noble armor and not a Knight's Embalzoned armour I shouldn't do any dungeons....



View PostSnapalope, on 08 November 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

Too much missing stats when you do dungeons or WvW.  Our guild refuse to take anyone that wears MF in dungeons.  Just do the math on how much useful stats you are missing if you use MF.  Numbers don't lie.

Just do the math on how much useful stats you are missing if you only use rares instead of exotics.  Numbers don't lie.  So you also refuse to take anyone that doesn't have exotics?

#74 Snapalope

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:28 PM

View PostLady Rhonwyn, on 12 November 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

Indeed.  As I "only" have a Knight's Noble armor and not a Knight's Embalzoned armour I shouldn't do any dungeons....





Just do the math on how much useful stats you are missing if you only use rares instead of exotics.  Numbers don't lie.  So you also refuse to take anyone that doesn't have exotics?

To be honest yes and no.  The guild I run with sometimes have to pick up one random to go on runs.  Most of the time we get someone, they die a lot and just play bad; usually we end up 4 manning or 3 manning the entire dungeon which isn't fun.  We ask the person what they're wearing and I would say 9 out of 10 they would have really under leveled gear or full MF.  I had people try to join our CoE runs in under leveled greens and die over and over again.  I've only seen one person that we picked up randomly that is a very good player but doesn't have good gear; now he's in our guild we got him fully geared up.  I rather not take my chances because we like to run our dungeons fast.

Edited by Snapalope, 12 November 2012 - 04:31 PM.


#75 Larsen

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 04:52 PM

Not only does magic find not belong in MMORPGs, it's even more out of place in this game because they've ruined farming. The itemization is so shallow that it doesn't encourage the pursuit of wealth, and most of the gear is obtained by grinding dungeons. What can you find as drops off of mobs? Mostly vendor trash and crafting materials. They removed the Diabloesque farming element of GW1 where you could get a lucky drop and sell it for a lot of money. Aside perhaps from runes/sigils, can mobs drop anything at all that'll sell for even one gold?

#76 Snapalope

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 06:55 AM

I also have another point to make to the people that defend their decision to wear MF in dungeons.  See, magic find is a glass cannon setup – well, let’s say glass gun set up because you're missing out a lot of critical damage and power. If you can run a glassy build and not die, by not running a proper glass cannon build you are making the run slower, essentially wasting your own time, as you could get those tokens and money rewards way faster with proper gear.

With all your knowledge, experience and ability to coordinate with people and not die without those extra health/power/critical damage/armor you're missing out on by wearing MF, you're probably a decent player.  However you could dish out much more damage or stay alive much longer with a combat useful stat in the major stat slot of your equipment as oppose to MF.  This exactly means dragging the general performance down. Not wiping, dying all the time or whatever – but consciously and willingly making the run slower than it could be, even for yourself.

It gets even more so silly now that we know that MF doesn’t work with chests. We don’t kill that many mobs in dungeons to make MF worth it even for the user.  MF is still a RNG mechanic, and with proper gear you will do your runs faster which could make you a tiny tiny bit less money or the same depending on your luck.  However this also means that you have more time to run more dungeons which means more money and token rewards since you're clearing dungeons faster.  This means you get more cash and tokens in the long run.

It probably doesn’t affect you much if you run only one route per sitting – 10 extra minutes don’t make a difference then. However if you do all the routes, wasting extra 30+ minutes total because two people run mf instead of berserker (if they’re so super awesome and can make glassy builds work), is outright silly and I seriously hope you don't do this.

I'll repeat my statement.  Magic find rewards bad (maybe) players for using shit gear.

Edited by Snapalope, 13 November 2012 - 07:15 AM.


#77 Wordsworth

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 08:18 AM

I'll repeat my statement, too: I won't fault anyone for using MF. If they suck, it has nothing to do with their gear. I'm an understanding person. I understand that 90% of this game is acquiring gear and gold, and MF helps with that. So go on ahead. Everyone's working toward the same goal here. If you're specced out for maximum profit and you don't suck, I'm cool with it.

#78 Snapalope

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 09:57 AM

View PostWordsworth, on 13 November 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

I'll repeat my statement, too: I won't fault anyone for using MF. If they suck, it has nothing to do with their gear. I'm an understanding person. I understand that 90% of this game is acquiring gear and gold, and MF helps with that. So go on ahead. Everyone's working toward the same goal here. If you're specced out for maximum profit and you don't suck, I'm cool with it.

Did you just TL;DR my entire post.  Getting tokens faster means you get top tier (as of now) faster.  If you can post a video clearly showing you can clear all 3 paths of AC in 45 minutes wearing MF gear I'll retract my statement.

Edited by Snapalope, 13 November 2012 - 09:58 AM.


#79 Swarfega

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:02 AM

+1 drop Magic Find from the game and give everyone a natural 50% or something.

#80 Lady Rhonwyn

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:16 AM

View PostSnapalope, on 13 November 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

Did you just TL;DR my entire post.  Getting tokens faster means you get top tier (as of now) faster.  If you can post a video clearly showing you can clear all 3 paths of AC in 45 minutes wearing MF gear I'll retract my statement.
I probably wouldn't even be able to do that with my Knight's armour...  (if you mean 45 minutes for 3 paths, and not each path 45 minutes, because we did just that this weekend, and while I don't know about the rest, but I had my pirate armour on, that is an explorer rare, with 2 noble runes, 2 flock runes and a traveler rune.  Only died once (not counting that second time, that was pure stupidity on my side, don't stand still on top of a trap while there's a gargoyle spouting flames at you...) on the first run.

#81 Snapalope

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 10:26 AM

Post your clear times with a party full of MF gear.  I'll time our runs and let's see how it compares.  I'm pretty sure CoE 1 and 2 takes about 30 minutes each for us.  Also 45 minutes for all 3 paths combined.

Edited by Snapalope, 13 November 2012 - 10:41 AM.


#82 Wordsworth

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:07 PM

View PostSnapalope, on 13 November 2012 - 09:57 AM, said:

Did you just TL;DR my entire post.  Getting tokens faster means you get top tier (as of now) faster.  If you can post a video clearly showing you can clear all 3 paths of AC in 45 minutes wearing MF gear I'll retract my statement.

I don't really care if you retract your statement or not, though...

But I like how you assume I just happen to have four people on hand with full magic find gear, the exact same class and builds as your four people, with the time and desire to speed clear AC in the exact same way... and some sort of FRAPs program to record it all.

Because that's what it takes for any comparison to matter.

Although I do have FRAPs... If you like your videos 15 seconds long.

Edited by Wordsworth, 13 November 2012 - 12:48 PM.


#83 Tevesh

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:35 PM

Quote

you should never have to gimp yourself to get better loot. period. bad game mechanic IMO.

This. You should be rewarded for contribution, higher skills or superior strategy. Equipping MF gear in any scenario provides nothing of that. In any group scenario having MF gear on diminishes your contribution, and, thus, griefs any player who chose to team with you as opposed to someone wearing real gear. This is toxic to the social environment of the game and it bothers me greatly that the developers did not even try to consider it when designing gear and stats.

#84 Wordsworth

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 12:47 PM

View PostTevesh, on 13 November 2012 - 12:35 PM, said:

This. You should be rewarded for contribution, higher skills or superior strategy. Equipping MF gear in any scenario provides nothing of that. In any group scenario having MF gear on diminishes your contribution, and, thus, griefs any player who chose to team with you as opposed to someone wearing real gear. This is toxic to the social environment of the game and it bothers me greatly that the developers did not even try to consider it when designing gear and stats.

But that means it's okay if all 5 players have MF and help others get shinies, right?

#85 MazD

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:12 PM

View PostWordsworth, on 13 November 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

But that means it's okay if all 5 players have MF and help others get shinies, right?

Even then it's not ok. Even when everything seems fair to all of the teammembers, the entire aspect of customizing your gear to your playstyle is reduced to Magic Find.

There is for many players a lot of fun in trying to make a superefficient build or to attempt to fill a certain role within a group to somehow make it through a dungeon with less armorscratches for the team. Magic find takes away a large part of the customizeability required to make a 'build'.
This isn't just min-maxing, this is as common as choosing for condition damage to improve your bleeding damage or picking that 'lightning strike on crit' sigil for high critical strikes builds. Because it works so well together, and making a synergetic build is just loads of fun.

In the 5 player MF-gear group they miss out on that.

If they like to weigh off a bigger challenge versus a bigger reward, I recommend this being solved in a different way, not through magic find. (see my earlier post in this thread)

#86 Resolve

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:23 PM

It's just another stupid mechanic in a game that already has too many stupid mechanics.

#87 Wordsworth

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:27 PM

View PostMazD, on 13 November 2012 - 02:12 PM, said:

Even then it's not ok. Even when everything seems fair to all of the teammembers, the entire aspect of customizing your gear to your playstyle is reduced to Magic Find.

There is for many players a lot of fun in trying to make a superefficient build or to attempt to fill a certain role within a group to somehow make it through a dungeon with less armorscratches for the team. Magic find takes away a large part of the customizeability required to make a 'build'.
This isn't just min-maxing, this is as common as choosing for condition damage to improve your bleeding damage or picking that 'lightning strike on crit' sigil for high critical strikes builds. Because it works so well together, and making a synergetic build is just loads of fun.

In the 5 player MF-gear group they miss out on that.

If they like to weigh off a bigger challenge versus a bigger reward, I recommend this being solved in a different way, not through magic find. (see my earlier post in this thread)

They can do that if they want to. Or they can use MF if they want to. How does this become an issue?

#88 MazD

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 03:44 PM

View PostWordsworth, on 13 November 2012 - 02:27 PM, said:

They can do that if they want to. Or they can use MF if they want to. How does this become an issue?

The issue is that if they choose Magic Find, it is a choice for gains, not for playstyle. It is counterintuïtive that an optimized build would be less efficient at earning rewards as a relatively poor build. Try to see the benefits of the game without magic find.
It is a lot of fun to adapt your gear to a specific skill/trait setup. Having to trade that off against better loot is not making the game any richer. It is reducing options for those who like decent loot, instead of adding an option as it appears to do at first sight.

Magic find is not adding as much to this game as building gear to traits/skills is.

All this only applies to people who care for loot ofcourse, those who just like to slaughter, crush through challenges and don't care about rewards aren't bothered by this at all.

Somehow, I get the feeling that a great many people do care about loot though.

What are the benefits of magic find, really? What is it adding? Just a way to create 'Hard Mode' (Guild Wars 1's way of making the game more difficult to get greater rewards), and as that, it is poorly executed.

Edited by MazD, 13 November 2012 - 03:44 PM.


#89 KazNaka

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:05 PM

before you keep arguing further, read this -> MF doesn't affect chests
source: https://forum-en.gui...gic-Find-Chests

Edited by Ethereal, 14 November 2012 - 10:14 AM.
Please don't abuse the font size button.


#90 Snapalope

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 04:38 PM

View PostKazNaka, on 13 November 2012 - 04:05 PM, said:

before you keep arguing further, read this -> MF doesn't affect chests
source: https://forum-en.gui...gic-Find-Chests

This was one of my arguments made in post 76.

Edited by Ethereal, 14 November 2012 - 10:15 AM.
resized quote font





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