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Zerj's PvE/Dungeon DPS Thief Build


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#61 Oronyx

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 02:39 PM

View PostTenofas, on 07 October 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

I use a very similar build, actually it's 30/30/0/0/10, but IMHO you are wasting too much attributes points in Critical Chance %.
You have 89% in your H windows.  I think that 45-55% is more than enough to have almost every hit crit.  Probably it's just a matter of taste and style, but I rather have 13k+ health.
Posted Image

It works great in Dungeons, but I still have to test it in PvP.

what inscriptions have you got on and what pieces?

#62 Zerj

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 05:18 PM

View PostCepaCepa, on 07 October 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:



Thanks for the fast reply! And this damage can be repeated indefinitely right?

If it is, then people haven't been kidding about thief damage. :) Given (as it turns out) the public's misconception of ranger/warrior damage I was suspecting something like that for thief too, but a 6-7K dps is no joke. Other than MAYBE a full glass cannon mesmer on a good day, with this number thieves would have no competition in dungeons as top damage dealer.

Thanks for your help!

Pretty much indefinitely ya. A full berserker warrior can do almost as much with 16 or 18k hp without any hp gear and have a 100% hp heal every 30s

View PostBalala, on 07 October 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:



For single target, yes, it yes. It is wonderful to use Haste and cast 3 Unload in 4 seconds.
And some boss fights, where everyone keeps running is just too hard to get Cluster Bomb hit.
Ya I end up unable to use cluster bomb on a lot of fights.

#63 Zerj

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 05:49 PM

The math I did vs my guildies full glass cannon warrior put him about 5 to 10% behind me with a lot more survivability.

#64 CepaCepa

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 06:23 PM

View PostZerj, on 07 October 2012 - 05:49 PM, said:

The math I did vs my guildies full glass cannon warrior put him about 5 to 10% behind me with a lot more survivability.

From the numbers I get out of annoying quite a few warriors asking their detailed damage, glass cannon warriors do about 4-5K direct dps, with a bit of bleed damage on top of that. So that 10% figure seems right. But after asking through lots of them, in dungeon typically they'd only do melee damage (optimal damage) less than 50% of the time, this figure goes up depends on how survivable the warrior is but for a glass cannon it means getting out of melee at the first sign of trouble. Staying in range would half his dps if not more.

This problem however is not as severe for thieves, since thieves can be reserving initiatives and dumping all the damage at once on an enemy when the chance is right, even though at range your damage halves as well (P/P doing 2-3K dps). Hence for damage comparison in dungeons, thieves are in fact quite a bit ahead of warriors.

More health is the only edge that glass cannon warriors have over thieves, which isn't much considering the aggressive playstyle and how hard dungeon mob hits. If a player is skilled at dodging and evading attacks he'd be able to survive as glass cannon, warrior OR thief. However, for a warrior any time spent dodging the attack/getting out of range/putting up defenses is time not doing damage. For a thief, again, this simply means saving up initiatives to unload all the damage later on. So a glass cannon warrior doesn't have the edge that glass cannon thieves have.

So really, the only glass cannon builds that synergize their abilities very well in dungeons are thieves and mesmers, that's about it, every other profession has to sacrifice more than just survival by going into glass cannon (evasive builds = lost damage up-time, which more or less defeat the purpose of going glass cannon). Not to mention that some professions just cannot do that kind of number period.

With that in mind, I have another question: in your judgement, how often in dungeons can your thief pull off that 6-7K dps numbers? (50%? 75%? 90%?) Even though thieves would take less penalty by evading attacks due to the initiatives system, in reality it probably is still a drawback, hence I'm wondering what the realistic numbers are like. Thanks again!

#65 Tenofas

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 08:06 PM

View PostOronyx, on 07 October 2012 - 02:39 PM, said:

what inscriptions have you got on and what pieces?

Damn, you are right... I was wearing a few Valkyrie pieces in that screenshot... 2 or 3 of them, the other were Berserker's.

Here are the stats with a full Berserker's set:

Posted Image

Edited by Tenofas, 07 October 2012 - 08:19 PM.


#66 LOCOMOFO

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Posted 07 October 2012 - 09:56 PM

View PostTenofas, on 07 October 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

Snip

I see you haven't put anything into toughness.  Do you find yourself pretty squishy in dungeons even with the slight buff to vitality?

#67 Zerj

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:12 AM

View PostCepaCepa, on 07 October 2012 - 06:23 PM, said:

With that in mind, I have another question: in your judgement, how often in dungeons can your thief pull off that 6-7K dps numbers? (50%? 75%? 90%?) Even though thieves would take less penalty by evading attacks due to the initiatives system, in reality it probably is still a drawback, hence I'm wondering what the realistic numbers are like. Thanks again!

As you said due to the initiative system you don't really "lose dps" when evading. I think of evading as extra initiative regen ;) Like I said I am on hiatus from MMORPGs currently due to school, so I can't definitively answer your 50 75 90 question.

Edited by Zerj, 08 October 2012 - 12:13 AM.


#68 funnyguy12345

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 01:10 AM

So what did you guys think of the latest patch? :qq:

#69 Zerj

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 01:12 AM

What I want to say would most likely get me infraction points. I am going to be testing a D/D Backstab C/D build. I will prob just stay S/P though.

Edited by Zerj, 08 October 2012 - 02:46 AM.


#70 Trixstir

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 04:12 AM

So are we saying that this build is dead? Don't have full gear to check it out really just have jewelry exotic and my weapons atm. Still switching out armor had a CD WVW  sset up for wvw before. Noticed 2-4k damage drop on the attack so far but not sure how bad that is yet if I had the full armor set up for it.

#71 Zerj

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 05:54 AM

It's not dead. I'm just mad bro. So mad. Its still good DPS and I will probably continue to use it.

#72 Trixstir

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 06:28 AM

Cool cool looks like I will keep setting this up for my pve the :)

#73 Tenofas

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 06:56 AM

View PostLOCOMOFO, on 07 October 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

I see you haven't put anything into toughness.  Do you find yourself pretty squishy in dungeons even with the slight buff to vitality?

Not too squishy.  Have to move carefully, pick the right moment to jump in and out melee range, but one gets used after a while.

#74 Tenofas

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 07:13 AM

View Postfunnyguy12345, on 08 October 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

So what did you guys think of the latest patch? :qq:

Oh my God.... I just saw it... and I could not believe it.  15% less damage is a lot... have to test it in game. :mad:

#75 LOCOMOFO

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 07:14 AM

View PostTenofas, on 08 October 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

Not too squishy.  Have to move carefully, pick the right moment to jump in and out melee range, but one gets used after a while.

Okay good to hear.  I've got similar vitality to you, but with a little bit of toughness chucked in.  Was just curious how you fair in dungeon content as I'm about to start hitting some up myself.

#76 Balala

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:27 PM

View PostTenofas, on 07 October 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

I use a very similar build, actually it's 30/30/0/0/10, but IMHO you are wasting too much attributes points in Critical Chance %.
You have 89% in your H windows.  I think that 45-55% is more than enough to have almost every hit crit.  Probably it's just a matter of taste and style, but I rather have 13k+ health.
It works great in Dungeons, but I still have to test it in PvP.
55% its not enough. I would say something around 80-85% "is more than enought to have almost every hit crit".
13k health is really overhated, you will be one shooted anyway without thoughness. Is just a placebo effect.


View Postfunnyguy12345, on 08 October 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

So what did you guys think of the latest patch? :qq:
That patch really ruined some things.
Does the 15% reduc affect 15% on overall damage? I guess not, maybe something like 5-10%.

---
Guess ill try S/D, Flanking Strike seens to be a good surv skill with a good damage.

Edited by Balala, 08 October 2012 - 12:35 PM.


#77 JaeJae

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 12:41 PM

After this patch, are you guys planning to change to D/D from S/P? Or remain unchanged??

I am quite confused whether to continue S/P or change to D/D after the patch! :qq:

Edited by JaeJae, 08 October 2012 - 12:42 PM.


#78 Balala

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 03:03 PM

Still havent played yet after this change.
Dont know for sure ohw this affect the gameplay.

But i am really considering keep Sword for hitting groups of mobs instead single target.
Even with the 15% damage nerf, will result more damage than backstabing single target every 4-5 seconds.

#79 Zerj

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Posted 08 October 2012 - 07:01 PM

View PostBalala, on 08 October 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

55% its not enough. I would say something around 80-85% "is more than enought to have almost every hit crit".
13k health is really overhated, you will be one shooted anyway without thoughness. Is just a placebo effect.

Very true, all of that.

I will be staying S/P. The damage is still very good and I prefer its playstyle. The requirement of being behind the mob or to throw yourself around is prohibitive sometimes in dungeons.

#80 shadowstorme1122

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 03:07 AM

Hello,
Just for damage reference i tested the damage of pistolwhip lastnight in CM explore and compared to unload the damage difference was down to 3k total all hits, im being generous here as at times unload deal more damage over pistolwhip.  i feel d/d is now more useful overall as compared to s/p.  s/p offered aoe attacks in skill 1 and 3, but now i think d/d has the edge interms of overall use, but i guess it will still depend on the user.  s/p is still okay if you want to quickly kill your target and don't want for the dots to tick.

#81 Zerj

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 05:16 AM

I was dropping 10-12k out in DEs in Orr last night. I would imagine I would hit 12-18k in dungeons. Maybe a little more.

Edited by Zerj, 09 October 2012 - 07:09 AM.


#82 tony32p

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 01:24 PM

i want to run this build but with a bit more survivability how should i go about it? should i leave the spec alone and gain it through jewelry? or go valkr armor? or change the spec around? once im used to the build im sure ill go all out glass cannon but in the beginning i would like to add in some survivability just not sure where to add it to not take much away from the build... thanks

#83 Zerj

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:28 PM

If you want some more survivability I would prob go with some valkyrie gear.

#84 ivonbeton

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:56 AM

This is about as glass cannon as it gets. I play with 16k health and 300 toughness more. At the moment I'm still using some shitty runes and gear from my previous build and I'm out of money after buying cultural t3, but I should hit about 2k unbuffed power and 1.9 unbuffed precision. I'd have to agree that starting around 45% crit chance it seems like close to every hit crits while you just added so much more survivability.

Having survivability is really not underrated, most fights in dungeons are not about getting the boss killed asap, but about controlling the fight and being able to survive a few conditions or a few hits. Especially since pistol whip got nerfed, is it really worth it? I won't deny that my damage is subpar to glass cannons build, but thanks to thief aggro breakers and mobility : I don't die if I play it out correctly. Even on subject alpha I rarely die unless I'm unlucky.

Can you honestly say you have no problems surviving on bosses with a condition aura or e.g arah/subject alpha? Feels to me that living to see the end of the fight improves your DPS a lot more than bursting inconsistently.

Edited by ivonbeton, 18 October 2012 - 02:58 AM.


#85 Balala

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:39 PM

Condition aura is really a pain. I remeber doing CoF story and the last boss has a flame aura, had to P/P and spam unload.
Ive get down couple of times, but for sure i was the top damage on that fight, easily.

I just deal with down/deaths, this isnt a hardcore diablo hero, so, get up and fight back.
I really dont see a point putting surv gear.

#86 ivonbeton

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 01:17 PM

View PostBalala, on 18 October 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

Condition aura is really a pain. I remeber doing CoF story and the last boss has a flame aura, had to P/P and spam unload.
Ive get down couple of times, but for sure i was the top damage on that fight, easily.

I just deal with down/deaths, this isnt a hardcore diablo hero, so, get up and fight back.
I really dont see a point putting surv gear.

It's just a different opinion I guess. I prefer to survive nearly every encounter, I'm usually that one guy left standing reviving the entire team even as a thief. And since I don't die, I keep my damage during the entire fight. So while a glass cannon is doing great damage with a big risk of doing nothing for atleast some time (while downed), I prefer to not take that risk and keep the damage steady.

Imo the survivable thief works best with conditions, but I'm playing crit gear atm because of the current state of bleed in PVE.

#87 Balala

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 06:35 PM

View Postivonbeton, on 18 October 2012 - 01:17 PM, said:

Imo the survivable thief works best with conditions, but I'm playing crit gear atm because of the current state of bleed in PVE.

I do have to agree with that. Conditions are kinda hit-and-run, so, the longer you run, the better.
As long as you dont need 3 stats for condition (pwr/crit/crit dmg) you are free to stack vit/toug without any penalty to your damage.

#88 Fazzi00

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 07:56 PM

i like bezeker gear on my thief  but i got with emerald jewelry  still gives power and crit, but also gives toughness, makes up a bit for the lower max HP.

also i dont know why people love signet of malice so much, the heal per strike is complete trash

Edited by Fazzi00, 18 October 2012 - 07:59 PM.


#89 Balala

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 08:43 PM

View PostFazzi00, on 18 October 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

also i dont know why people love signet of malice so much, the heal per strike is complete trash

WHAT? Hitting just ONE mob, i get around 1k heal plus the evade timing, tanking better than anyone.
When i on low health and safe, i dont waste my heal, just wait a few second to get max health just with malice.

Would you pick Hide in Shadows for what in pve? Double active heal with double cd?
Even without passive, i would pick Malice just cause of low cd.
Stealth with this build is pretty much useless.

#90 tony32p

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 10:51 AM

I'm still using this after nerf and dmg seems alright.. It's too much fun to switch to anything else. I can't find another build that competes w it in dungeon xp's.   feels weird not using daggers. Wish I could find a equivelant dagger/dagger build




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