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HoD: Solution or Problem

hod www wvw population server

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#1 pharmx

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 11:57 AM

Do people want every server to have 24/7 coverage like HoD, or would they rather have rules in place to prevent any other server from turning into something similar to Henge?

Basically, what would a level playing field be?

#2 demonk

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 12:03 PM

I think as it is, is a level playing field. Every server has the same options of establishing round the clock coverage. Its all just part of the metagame

#3 lesath

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 12:06 PM

naw we broke the game.

#4 Meepok_maopok

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 12:26 PM

ppl who are too lazy to plan n prepare are now trying to change the rules of the game

#5 phobos

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 12:31 PM

Since when does winning or losing actually matter?

#6 Vyssra

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 12:33 PM

I wasn't a forum goer in dark ages, shadow bane, and warhammer days but did people complain about their time being the end all and all activity should cease outside of it?  Not sure region lock was in those games even so there were those dedicated to put in the extra hours to see their side win.  So even without oceanics we'd have people coming back to complain about the "no lifers and school kiddies".

#7 Vihar

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 12:39 PM

HoD is the solution.

   They should never have designated servers as EU or NA...that is the problem.

   Also, far too many whiners and quitters in today's MMO players.

  They have no heart and no mental toughness. Just a bunch of mama's boys.

  They either quit when they are losing, or try to jump on the coattails of someone else's success so they can pretend they are good, too.

  You PVP for the joy of slaughter, not because of a scoreboard.

  Suck it up.

#8 Seimore

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 12:47 PM

I played through War in its entirety, people complained much more because the imbalance wasn't something you could fix. It was a constant horror to log in as Order and spend all day defending and having to wait until off-peak times from both Oceanic and NA to finally assault the Destruction city and get a shot at some sweet sweet loot.

That didn't change. We still fought on every night in a losing position, cause it was fun. You suck it up, get better, and play on. Blaming the more popular server for being more popular isn't a solution because without Henge another will take our place, and if you think by simply removing Henge it'll change much you're a little deluded...

There always will be a 1st, and reasons to hate them for being 1st, no matter who it is.

#9 NutUpOrShutUpGW2

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:07 PM

View Postpharmx, on 26 September 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

Do people want every server to have 24/7 coverage like HoD, or would they rather have rules in place to prevent any other server from turning into something similar to Henge?

Basically, what would a level playing field be?

WvWvW is about a 24/7 coverage. HoD, SBI, ET and JQ are playing the game the way it was meant to be played. It's up to YOU (not exactly referring to you, just in general) to make a change if you want to be playing in a higher teir, which should be going to a server where your prime time players are needed, not riding the coattails of success.

People need to stop asking for something to be done for them and just go out and do it themselves.... you lazy pieces of crap. Don't whine or cry or quit because ANet didn't take it upon themselves to think for you. Do something about it or shut the hell up.

#10 pharmx

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:13 PM

So if alliances/guilds can't/won't move willingly, and the population doesn't rebalance itself naturally...should Anet implement an artificial solution such as merging specific servers to have an even distribution of players across timezones?

Or is everything working as intended considering the game was just released? What sort of incentives can they offer to stabilize server populations across time zones?

#11 Taka87

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:18 PM

They need to limit WvW player limits during offpeak hours. It needs to be dynamic based on the number of players participating. If people dont like their daytime queues they can go to another server.

#12 Seimore

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:19 PM

View Postpharmx, on 26 September 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

So if alliances/guilds can't/won't move willingly, and the population doesn't rebalance itself naturally...should Anet implement an artificial solution such as merging specific servers to have an even distribution of players across timezones?

Or is everything working as intended considering the game was just released? What sort of incentives can they offer to stabilize server populations across time zones?

This current excuse/reason is being used in the game thread with the servers involved. The problem is that SBI and ET have people playing right now, but refusing to go to WvWvW. Merging servers may help this slightly, but there is a fundamental flaw in believing that merging servers brings together a higher population of WvWvW players.

At this current time. 11pm GMT+10
ET Medium
Henge High
SBI High

I don't know a solution to make people join wvwvw. I join even when losing, so do my guild mates and my server seems to do well under pressure. It's not our fault we don't give up.

View PostTaka87, on 26 September 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

They need to limit WvW player limits during offpeak hours. It needs to be dynamic based on the number of players participating. If people dont like their daytime queues they can go to another server.

Nope. This is my prime-time. Devs support persistent access and if they back flip it'll cause a lot more outrage than happiness.

Edited by Seimore, 26 September 2012 - 01:20 PM.


#13 bdatty

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:23 PM

View PostVihar, on 26 September 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

HoD is the solution.

   They should never have designated servers as EU or NA...that is the problem.

   Also, far too many whiners and quitters in today's MMO players.

  They have no heart and no mental toughness. Just a bunch of mama's boys.

  They either quit when they are losing, or try to jump on the coattails of someone else's success so they can pretend they are good, too.

  You PVP for the joy of slaughter, not because of a scoreboard.

  Suck it up.

Wow, true words have never been spoke.

#14 Chamcham

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:32 PM

View PostVihar, on 26 September 2012 - 12:39 PM, said:

HoD is the solution.

   They should never have designated servers as EU or NA...that is the problem.

   Also, far too many whiners and quitters in today's MMO players.

  They have no heart and no mental toughness. Just a bunch of mama's boys.

  They either quit when they are losing, or try to jump on the coattails of someone else's success so they can pretend they are good, too.

  You PVP for the joy of slaughter, not because of a scoreboard.

  Suck it up.

Holy snykees someone actually gets it. I had this conversation over dinner with a friend of mine who leads one of the top wow raiding guilds. We came to the exact same conclusion, in a game like GW2 you PvP because you want to PvP not for a tangible reward or for shinies.

Just as in WoW you pve for a sense of reward and entitlement, in the top tier raiding scene.

Good on you sir, good on you.

#15 AugustusGraves

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:32 PM

What's important is just identifying the situation and waiting for it to balance out.  The current discussions are pointless, as you've got a large number of arrogant minorities and whiners who are coming to these forums to either boast, find answers to an unrecoverable situation, or simply troll a situation that everyone saw coming.  None of these people represent the armies/forces involved in any of this competition.  And a lot of people are silently on the sidelines reading all this, shrugging, and walking away.

So, on to identifying the situation:
  • Currently, you have one highly organized-to-win server.  They are demanding other's to meet their preparation, but have likely already absorbed the general demographic of players interested in this level of organization.
  • The current servers competing with the top server are less organized, and likely consist of individuals not interested in organizing.  And while there is boasting/whining on the forums, the majority of those involved are keeping it 'in the game'.
  • Due to the differences in mentality between the top server and their immediate (current) competition, you have the top server demanding a server with the same amount of organization/coverage.  While the competition is viewed as quitting because they never came to the battle intending to commit and dedicate that much organization to it.  And beyond the small numbers on the forums... most of the taunts never reach those who are happily finding something else to do.

What this means is that there's going to be several months of growing pains as, theoretically, one of the servers begin to organize and meet HoD's challenge.  Or, no one ever will, and servers that 'casually' rank up to HoD's bracket are going to spend the next few months saying:  Faaaak - when WvW resets and they see their victory has been 'rewarded' with a chance to fight against the only server that attracted high volume 24/7 coverage.

In my opinion, HoD's initial call-to-arms and organization has attracted nearly the entirety of players interested in the level of cohesion and coverage they currently have.  So at some point, after weeks-or-months of completely stomping the competition, either boredom will settle in.  Ideally, if ArenaNet can allow guild progression to transfer across servers, some of these organized groups will spread to two other servers.  But that's highly unlikely.  Boredom and a 'new game' will neutralize this situation long before those who organized this imbalance will save it.

As it stands, there will still be SBI, ET, JQ, etc. casually playing as they always have.  You will not feel a 'push' however.  They'll be killing for fun, like they did when all of this started.  They'll invest in cheap siege weapons, but will no longer invest in upgrades due to their inability to hold a structure after hours.  Players will focus more on skirmish fights and no longer on taking/holding points - unless they get bored, of course.  There are always exceptions.

So is this a problem?  Has this broken WvW?  It all depends on how HoD responds to having no one challenge them.  Will they get bored and find something else to do?  Will a random few hundred players suddenly organize on a server with the goal of taking HoD down?  It's very unrealistic to expect people to change their work/school/life schedules for something like this.  And it's very unlikely we'll have a second and third organization of players looking for 24/7 coverage.  If that happens, HoD has to do nothing but keep doing what they do.

And that's it, really.  Feel free to return to the butt-hurting and wound salting.

#16 Phaded

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:39 PM

View PostTaka87, on 26 September 2012 - 01:18 PM, said:

They need to limit WvW player limits during offpeak hours. It needs to be dynamic based on the number of players participating. If people dont like their daytime queues they can go to another server.

We already have consistent queues 24/7 on all borderlands, and 2+hour queues for EB 24/7.

How do you define offpeak when its always peak?

#17 MayorOfBartertown

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 01:53 PM

View PostAugustusGraves, on 26 September 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

HoD's initial call-to-arms and organization has attracted nearly the entirety of players interested in the level of cohesion and coverage they currently have.

Valid on organiztion, but there was NO call-to-arms, save for winning.

#18 AugustusGraves

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 02:12 PM

View PostMayorOfBartertown, on 26 September 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

Valid on organiztion, but there was NO call-to-arms, save for winning.

Organizing = Call to Arms.  It doesn't matter what semantics you use.  If people are getting the guilds together, requiring organization, cohesion, formal communication channels, etc. - the simple gesture of organizing advertises that they are taking this very seriously.  Which means practically every member that gets brought on is going to brag to their friends, spread the word, etc:  These people really are taking this seriously, you should join.

The Call-to-Arms in this case was a side-effect of organizing.  And the results, the 'winning', further advertised.  It's not an excuse to why you've won, but the types of people attracted to this are not going to jump ship to another server in order to balance teams and stimulate WvW for the sake of a good fight.  So far, all I've seen from SBI, JQ, and ET have been casual groups.  And as nice as it must be to be American Number 1, it's only interesting when the underdogs can give you a black eye.  Even if it just means every hillbilly for miles will wake up in the dead of night for revenge.

You'll stay on top forever.  Or at least until the challenges dwindle to the point that boredom and other games begins to drain your numbers.  Or until ArenaNet changes the mechanics or metrics to shape the current preferred methods of competition.  I do not foresee enough players organizing 24/7 coverage on a 'different' server just to for a chance to win WvW.  You people have clearly already chosen the server you want to do this on.  Though, if this does happen, it'll be a Win/Win for everyone.

#19 NutUpOrShutUpGW2

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 02:13 PM

View Postpharmx, on 26 September 2012 - 01:13 PM, said:

So if alliances/guilds can't/won't move willingly, and the population doesn't rebalance itself naturally...should Anet implement an artificial solution such as merging specific servers to have an even distribution of players across timezones?

Or is everything working as intended considering the game was just released? What sort of incentives can they offer to stabilize server populations across time zones?

The Problem: The People who enjoy WvWvW generally want a good competition and want it played the way it was meant to with 24/7 coverage, but if they are not part of a multi-guild alliance they are hesitant to make the move, because they know they need more than just their guild to make a big enough difference on a server that needs people playing during their prime time.

The Solution: The people need more specific information available to them in order to make an informed decision on what's best for their guild.

In my opinion if ANet were to step in the best solution as far as WvWvW is concerned would be to have a system where you can only transfer to a given server if there is a time slot available to you when most of your guild is online. There would need to be a system in place on the GW2 website to register your guild where you can pick your timezone for your guild. Additionally, the system would need the number of members on your roster in order to ensure that the entire guild can be moved and everyone will be able to play together if everyone is online. Everyone would get an option on the GW2 website to choose which guild they are apart of in order for the system to ensure accurate data or it would simply take it from the game itself.The process for transfering would be something like this:

Step 1:  The Guild Leader goes to the GW2 website and chooses a server(s) and the time slot
Step 2:  Wait for a reply from ANet either allowing or not allowing the transfer to the server(s)
(Lets say you apply to transfer to 3 servers and within 24 hours later you get an e-mail stating you are approved to transfer to 2 servers. You weren't approved for the third because it was filled by other guilds who applied before you did.)
Step 3:  On the GW2 website pick which server you want to transfer your guild to
Step 4:  Within 24 hours your Guild Leader will recieve either an e-mail or an in-game option to move the guild to the selected server
Step 5: Those players who were not logged in during the time of the transfer will either automatically be moved or will get an in-game option to move with the guild.

In order to do the above there would also need to be a server list setup with the population online during each timezone at their prime time and off-peak time. An example of the idea would be a site where you can see what the population is like during a specific timezone:

Blackgate:   Prime Time   Off-Peak Time
  US PST (6PM - 2AM) - High (3AM - 5PM) - Low
  US CST (6PM - 2AM) - High (3AM - 5PM) - Low
  US EST (6PM - 2AM) - High (3AM - 5PM) - Low
  Europe (6PM - 2AM) - Low   (3AM - 5PM) - Low
  Asia (6PM - 2AM) - Low    (3AM - 5PM) - Low
  Oceanic (6PM - 2AM) - Low   (3AM - 5PM) - Low
***The times above would be individually based on your timezone. For example if you're US EST you'll see Prime Time for US PST listed as 9PM - 5AM.

This would be a relatively large undertaking, there's no question about that, but as far as the most efficient solution I don't see any other way. You definitely don't want to be forcing people one way or the other with server merges. You want guilds to still maintain control of where they want to be. I would say each guild has a 1 time free transfer (assuming free transfers are over by the time this is setup, this transfer would also not penalize your guild upgrades) that they can use for each member of the guild, after all this is GUILD wars not individual-run-around-killing-people wars. This option would only be given to the guild leader obviously.

The one thing most guilds who are thinking about transfering ask themselves the following question:
What will queue times be like for my guild in WvWvW or even logging in?

A guild wants to play with each other, they don't want to sit in a queue waiting an eternity to play with their guild. If ANet can provide the information for guilds to make accurate and informed decisions they will all move accordingly because the risks will be just about eliminated.

TL;DR: ANet adds a system that gives players more information about server populations during prime and off-peak times, which in turn eliminates a good amount of risk in deciding to transfer or not.

Edited by NutUpOrShutUpGW2, 26 September 2012 - 03:34 PM.


#20 Zeropass

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 02:17 PM

We just need some more oceanic guilds to join either SBI, ET, or JQ... then we will have the "players" to stop HoD... then it will just be getting the coordination in place.  It's not too far fetched really.. .

#21 CharliePrince

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 02:24 PM

View Postpharmx, on 26 September 2012 - 11:57 AM, said:

Do people want every server to have 24/7 coverage like HoD, or would they rather have rules in place to prevent any other server from turning into something similar to Henge?

Basically, what would a level playing field be?

I think it's excellent to have a server like the "Zerg of Denravi" :) this way we know exactly where the bar is at and how amazing true greatness in wuvwuv can be

Denravi is basically the standard which all other servers strive to be

they have "The mix" right and is doing something I previously thought impossible.. which I will make its own thread when the time comes

needless to say, Denravi is what every other server looks up to and knows "that's what real greatness in wuvwuv is"

regardless of reasons, if you ask "which server is the best?"

one answer: Denravi

#22 AugustusGraves

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 02:24 PM

View PostZeropass, on 26 September 2012 - 02:17 PM, said:

We just need some more oceanic guilds to join either SBI, ET, or JQ... then we will have the "players" to stop HoD... then it will just be getting the coordination in place.  It's not too far fetched really.. .

Unfortunately, it is far fetched.  The concept isn't hard to understand, sure.  But realistically, GW2 has probably already attracted the bulk of it's long term player base already - at least until the first expansion.  Furthermore, it's unrealistic for players to transfer in order to even out the playing field.  The ego and pride, the allegiances, the resources (influence) invested in guilds, and eventually the cost of server transfers - are all working against this.

It's what I want... that's easy.
It's getting it... that's complicated.

#23 Barab

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 02:25 PM

HoD is the measuring stick. Welcome the challenge and ignore the troll rage from all four top servers. Props to the majority of guilds on HoD for remaining humble with the success that is well deserved.

Edited by Barab, 26 September 2012 - 02:25 PM.

View PostKurthos, on 23 January 2013 - 05:06 PM, said:

When Jade Quarry awakens, they will ask themselves, when were we ever asleep?

#24 CharliePrince

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 02:32 PM

if you search my post history from the beginning of wuvwuv, I even made a thread about it: World-vs-World-vs-World was never meant to be balanced.. DEAL WITH IT

the key is "Getting it right".. having a crushing NA primetime presence with the top PVP guilds for example means absolutely nothing if you have no coverage beyond that

it's always been a NUMBERS game which I have gotten flak for because there are people out there who honestly believe "teamwork", "coordination", blah blah blah are the real factors in v8 (WvWvW)

look.. there are "tiers" if you will.. and each tier has that dominant server

tier 1 = Denravi, point blank Denravi will beat: JQ, SBI, ET (previously NSP)
tier 2 = Isle of Janthir, point blank will beat everybody else
tier 3 = not really sure who the dominnant guild is.. it's a few really

here's the problem. the difference between t1, t2 and t3 are enormous.. any of the 2-3-4 (1900s) servers can crush Janthir (1700s) because we do not have the numbers to face them and the same goes with JAnthir

IoJ can crush everyone else because of our enormous (yes, greater than SoS) International Players in v8..

and then whichever guild is leftover from t2: Dragonbrand, Crystal Desert, Beastgate, etc can crush the t3 servers they match up with

WE ALL SEE THIS REFLECTED BY THE CURRENT MATCHUP SCORES

now, is it good? is it bad? in my opinion.. excellence is always something to behold.. specially when it grows from within.. Denravi wasn't flocked to/mass transferred to/etc.. it was Titan Alliance that fueled their rise

what makes Denravi seperate from 2-3-4 is their Oceanic presence.. it's like taking Janthir's players and dumping it into any of the 2-3-4 servers and making them another Denravi powerhouse

all in all, Excellence is a good thing

it's good to have a Denravi around

#25 Corvindi

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 02:54 PM

I want to see 24/7 coverage on at least six servers, giving two tiers of very competitive WvW servers for people to play on, then the  third tier should be just as packed as possible.  That might mean we only end up with 9 active WvW servers, but so be it.  The joy of being able to jump in and fight it out in a close match, day or night, is far more important than winning, rankings, or whatever.  And for that, we need lots more packed servers.

They need to fix the queue bugs and get rid of the botters on their end.  On our end, we need consolidation.  Back on their end, it would be nice if they allowed guilds to transfer without losing all their upgrades for a short period of time while everything gets straightened out.  And then after it's all straightened out, they need to lock down the full servers and not allow anymore transfers to them.

There are good pvpers on servers without proper coverage, and it's sad, but it can be fixed, partly by us, partly by Arenanet.

#26 Iifa

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 03:01 PM

I have to agree with the statement that servers should never have been tagged with NA/EU. It's a little too late for that now, though.

Things will have to even themselves out over time.

#27 CharliePrince

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 03:12 PM

I know some people out there are thinking, "why can't the Janthir servers" or "SoS servers" just transfer to SBI?!

i guarantee you, if you could take the oceanic/international players on these servers and dump it into SBI, you'd have the best matchup Denravi could think of and might even beat Denravi

problem is international players are set and we on Janthir call it home, NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS

we have gone thru a 3 day spanking at the hands of Dragonbrand which I call "the Labor Day slaughter".. 2-3 days of +710 (yes, JAnthir had 0 points for all those days) and I am pretty sure whoever stayed on Janthir after that is not ever gonna leave :)

like a wise man once said here: "after the flames of war burns the garbage away, only steel remains"

:) that's how i feel about Janthir.. newer transfers/wuwuv players talk about the ET match this past week but in my opinion there are 2 past events that was Janthir's crucible
- Crystal Desert owning us for 4 days in a row in (because of connectivity issues with AN and international players)
- Dragonbrand's Labor Day Slaughter

"after the flames of war burns the garbage away, only steel remains"

ps: why SBI not ET or JQ? Not sure about JQ I don't think JQ is in SBI's league and as for ET? Nobody wants to join a Mentally Fragile and Immature server like that.. so really there's only one choice for another "super server" from the current roster: SBI :) but then again Janthir's getting an influx of people coming in so maybe we can break into that upper tier sometime

#28 MrZero

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 03:16 PM

View PostVyssra, on 26 September 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

I wasn't a forum goer in dark ages, shadow bane, and warhammer days but did people complain about their time being the end all and all activity should cease outside of it?  Not sure region lock was in those games even so there were those dedicated to put in the extra hours to see their side win.  So even without oceanics we'd have people coming back to complain about the "no lifers and school kiddies".


I can't speak to the other games but, Shadowbane had very specific conditions which had to be met in order for a guild to lose their assets to an enemy.

Edit to add: The trolling and shit talking was just as bed if not worse though. A big difference in Shadowbane was that if people knew your guild tag on the forums, you could be found in game. There is a lot of anonymity in this game that never happened there. If your in game character was named Vyssra and you wrote some checks on the forums with your mouth, you could be certain your ass would have to cash them in game.

Edited by MrZero, 26 September 2012 - 03:20 PM.


#29 Corvindi

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 03:20 PM

View PostCharliePrince, on 26 September 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

I know some people out there are thinking, "why can't the Janthir servers" or "SoS servers" just transfer to SBI?!

i guarantee you, if you could take the oceanic/international players on these servers and dump it into SBI, you'd have the best matchup Denravi could think of and might even beat Denravi

problem is international players are set and we on Janthir call it home, NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS

we have gone thru a 3 day spanking at the hands of Dragonbrand which I call "the Labor Day slaughter".. 2-3 days of +710 (yes, JAnthir had 0 points for all those days) and I am pretty sure whoever stayed on Janthir after that is not ever gonna leave :)

like a wise man once said here: "after the flames of war burns the garbage away, only steel remains"

:) that's how i feel about Janthir.. newer transfers/wuwuv players talk about the ET match this past week but in my opinion there are 2 past events that was Janthir's crucible
- Crystal Desert owning us for 4 days in a row in (because of connectivity issues with AN and international players)
- Dragonbrand's Labor Day Slaughter

"after the flames of war burns the garbage away, only steel remains"

ps: why SBI not ET or JQ? Not sure about JQ I don't think JQ is in SBI's league and as for ET? Nobody wants to join a Mentally Fragile and Immature server like that.. so really there's only one choice for another "super server" from the current roster: SBI :) but then again Janthir's getting an influx of people coming in so maybe we can break into that upper tier sometime

I hope so, it was obvious even though you lacked coverage that you have some good pvpers and a solid off-peak crew as a foundation.  I see you guys as filling the fifth spot in those two tiers of heavy WvW servers I'd love to see happen (not fifth place, mind you, just fifth to become competitive with coverage), and after that happens, we'll just need one more server to fill that last spot and we'll have two solid top tiers to play in.  I really hope it happens.

#30 Quietnine

Quietnine

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Posted 26 September 2012 - 03:43 PM

View PostCharliePrince, on 26 September 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

I think it's excellent to have a server like the "Zerg of Denravi" :) this way we know exactly where the bar is at and how amazing true greatness in wuvwuv can be

Denravi is basically the standard which all other servers strive to be

...
regardless of reasons, if you ask "which server is the best?"

one answer: Denravi

are you serious? Denravi gets stomped on the weekends by SBI. It's embarassing. The only reason HoD is #1 is because we have so many Euro's covering our backs during the daytime hours, that we win by default during the work days. that is not greatness, and to imagine that other servers are striving to be us is completely ridiculous. Denravi would be better off as a EU server going up against goliaths like Desolation. Or, as vihar suggested, eliminating the NA/EU system and just putting all the servers in the same pile.

while the organization on this server is great, its become very hard to find smaller skirmishes because of the zerg mentality large guilds force (im looking at multiple servers, here, PRX/RMA/Ruin/TL). im kind of surprised that DAoC players havent fled to low pops in search of 5v5/10v10. that is probably where the long term enjoyment will be.

Edited by Quietnine, 26 September 2012 - 03:44 PM.






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