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Bladetrail


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#1 oxmox

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:17 AM

Recently I Started to play a bit more often pvp with an Elementalist, instant lvl 80 Hot Joins. I did choose a tanky build to survive longer on the battlefields.

These are the stats:

Posted Image

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As you can see the armor and toughness values are very high, HP is a bit low but  this doesnt matter in this case since we will talk about incomming dmg against a tank build. At 50% health the used runes for this build trigger additional protection for some seconds by the way. In addition the traits at 50% health trigger Armor of Earth and at 25% another Shield, called Arcane Shield. ......didnt help me at all.

These screenshots show what I get confronted with in pvp when it comes to dmg, but in this case I was surprised about the dmgoutput from BLADETRAIL, which is a 900 range spell to cripple someone. 2x Bladetrail in a row which is almost 9k dmg.

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Not to mention the overall dmg output against a tank build with not really that high condition dmg.

Whats going on here, especially with Bladetrail ?

Edited by oxmox, 29 September 2012 - 10:30 AM.


#2 Lilitu

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 10:25 AM

heh, you got hit by bladetrail on the throw out AND the boomerang?

#3 Kutsus

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 03:01 PM

To expand on Lilitu's comment, it doesn't matter how tanky you are. If you stand in attacks like that you're going to get smushed. Passive tanking barely exists in this game... Sure you can get higher hp and take less dmg from physical hits, but if you don't use your abilities to avoid the damage (often greatly improved in a tank specs) then yes, you're going to get rocked.

#4 SemiAutomagic

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 03:59 PM

You shouldn't expect your stats alone to mitigate all the damage for you.

Also, conditions ignore toughness/armor.

#5 oxmox

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 05:31 PM

View PostKutsus, on 29 September 2012 - 03:01 PM, said:

To expand on Lilitu's comment, it doesn't matter how tanky you are. If you stand in attacks like that you're going to get smushed. Passive tanking barely exists in this game... Sure you can get higher hp and take less dmg from physical hits, but if you don't use your abilities to avoid the damage (often greatly improved in a tank specs) then yes, you're going to get rocked.

It is a difference if you fight with 20k HP and only 1200 toughness or 13k HP and 2k-2.2k toughness, the survival in general is higher with the higher toughness build...you cant say this doesnt matter except you didnt try it. I go down a lot faster with a squishy 20k HP build, the question is what dmg range would I have seen in the combat log with a squishy build.

I would love to see a more detailed combat log, there are no infos about dmg mitigation i.e.  shield procs from rune and traits, misses and so on....

Edited by oxmox, 29 September 2012 - 05:33 PM.


#6 Kutsus

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 06:39 PM

View Postoxmox, on 29 September 2012 - 05:31 PM, said:

It is a difference if you fight with 20k HP and only 1200 toughness or 13k HP and 2k-2.2k toughness, the survival in general is higher with the higher toughness build...you cant say this doesnt matter except you didnt try it. I go down a lot faster with a squishy 20k HP build, the question is what dmg range would I have seen in the combat log with a squishy build.

I would love to see a more detailed combat log, there are no infos about dmg mitigation i.e.  shield procs from rune and traits, misses and so on....

Way to miss the point. You're going to keep dying to "insert ability here" over and over until you learn that passive tanking isn't going to save you.

#7 Garethh

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Posted 29 September 2012 - 09:59 PM

View PostKutsus, on 29 September 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

Way to miss the point. You're going to keep dying to "insert ability here" over and over until you learn that passive tanking [alone] isn't going to save you.
ftfy

The warrior was a balls to the wall offensive spec, odds say, so flops like a wet noodle to the first person to more than glare angrily at him (good backstab specs can literally insta-kill them if frenzy is up).

Blade trail is a fantastic ability, especially with the 1s immobilize on cripple trait (which makes the 2nd round usually always hit if at a medium range).
You have to be able to avoid/kite allot, and well (or CC), if you really want to face a well played offensive warrior 1v1 and survive.
Bad 100-blades warriors are bad.
Lol.

Edited by Garethh, 29 September 2012 - 10:09 PM.


#8 oxmox

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 06:19 AM

You guys miss the point what  iam talking about: mitigation of survival builds, a tank build gives up their dmg output and exchange it for more survival. This is just one example where I think the game has a suboptimal pvp balance. It is not that worse like the discussion about the thief. Condition dmg in general has a luckluster in this game currently and the necro is just another example, it takes time and the player has actually to work a lot in a fight and there is not much difference if your dots tick for 95dmg or 115, which is actually a huge difference in your characters dmg stats.

What skill is needed if someone is pressing just a button and does 9k dmg from 900 range, which is actually ~ 75% of your HP. You have to kite/avoid and use your skills with a tank build or a pure dmg skill, there is no difference with your logic except that one build of them kills a lot faster. This build here uses 2x daggers, so you need to go into melee range to use most of your skills and in the rest of your time you are just a runner.

Someone did wrote in another thread the following:
I believe it would be better for the game as a whole if burst damage for all quickness accessable classes was tuned down a bit and they were given something else to compensate.



I dont want to say that this example did happen a lot to me, no there are the occasional thieves with their exceptional and questionable burst or the classes which have haste for their burst like the ranger or warrior. But the question was since when Baldetrail, which is a crippling skill can dish out such a high amount of damage....thats why I did wonder about it. Maybe some of you should start playing other classes/builds in pvp aswell and not the Fotm ones to see what is going on.

Edited by oxmox, 30 September 2012 - 06:47 AM.


#9 Tumri

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 08:11 AM

I'm calling bullshit. The greatsword auto attacks cannot hit 1500 per hit even against a heavy armor dummy(2200 armor as opposed to your 3100+) without more than 2.4k power and 50%+ crit damage. I'm guessing you were 100% glass cannon Elementalist against some fully glass cannon Warrior and lost so you put on a bunch of toughness gear and posted on the forums. Blade trail cannot do 9k damage unless you're practically naked and the Warrior has 25 stack might. GG 8/10 on the troll.

Edited by Tumri, 30 September 2012 - 08:12 AM.


#10 oxmox

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 09:04 AM

View PostTumri, on 30 September 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

I'm calling bullshit. The greatsword auto attacks cannot hit 1500 per hit even against a heavy armor dummy(2200 armor as opposed to your 3100+) without more than 2.4k power and 50%+ crit damage. I'm guessing you were 100% glass cannon Elementalist against some fully glass cannon Warrior and lost so you put on a bunch of toughness gear and posted on the forums. Blade trail cannot do 9k damage unless you're practically naked and the Warrior has 25 stack might. GG 8/10 on the troll.

Wut ? Well thats why Iam here to ask, Iam not posting crap or manipulated infos. The values are correct and from my combat log aswell from the character I used. Be carefull to make not yourself a troll, if you dont even know what kind of defence values the dummy has.

Edited by oxmox, 30 September 2012 - 09:16 AM.


#11 Tumri

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Posted 30 September 2012 - 10:25 PM

View Postoxmox, on 30 September 2012 - 09:04 AM, said:

Wut ? Well thats why Iam here to ask, Iam not posting crap or manipulated infos. The values are correct and from my combat log aswell from the character I used. Be carefull to make not yourself a troll, if you dont even know what kind of defence values the dummy has.

I'm saying it's mathematically impossible for those hits to be as hard as they are on a 3100 armor target. It's complete bullshit or a troll. The only possible explanation is some crazy 25 vuln stack on the target whilst the warrior simultaneously had 25 stack might. Bladetrail simply does not hit that hard. You ARE posting bullshit because it's literally impossible for a Bladetrail to hit for 5k.

Edited by Tumri, 30 September 2012 - 10:27 PM.


#12 oxmox

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 01:53 PM

View PostTumri, on 30 September 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

I'm saying it's mathematically impossible for those hits to be as hard as they are on a 3100 armor target. It's complete bullshit or a troll. The only possible explanation is some crazy 25 vuln stack on the target whilst the warrior simultaneously had 25 stack might. Bladetrail simply does not hit that hard. You ARE posting bullshit because it's literally impossible for a Bladetrail to hit for 5k.

Well, lets arrange and call it bullshit. Thats why I did post it here. When I play this build again, I will watch my combat log again and see if I will see such numbers again and post it here. It isnt the average dmg income, it was extraordinary. Blaid trail hits me with 2k+ toughness, a little less than the toughness I played before, for around 3k+, hartseeker for up to 4k so far.

Edited by oxmox, 01 October 2012 - 01:55 PM.


#13 Morglum

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 02:12 PM

Hm strange my Bladestrail with 3100 power hits for like 900-1100. Also 2000+ GS swing (crit)? That´s what I do against dummies with 15+ stacks of might.
That aside a defensive Elementalist should never ever die against a 100B Warrior (in 1on1).

#14 Tumri

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 07:27 PM

http://imgur.com/a/ZsGuZ

Light dummy. Have 100% glass cannon maximum damage spec. Have maximum damage traits and full adrenaline for the 12% adrenaline based damage trait. Highest hits were 2500 against the light armor target dummy. The light armor target dummy has only the absolute base 1800 armor with no toughness. The medium and heavy dummies have the absolute base 2000 and 2200 armor base that those two armor classes have. If you had 3k+ armor as shown in your screenshot it would have been -IMPOSSIBLE- to hit that hard. It's impossible to hit that hit even if you had 0 toughness/1800 armor without max might stacks and a few vulnerability applications on you.

#15 oxmox

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Posted 01 October 2012 - 08:27 PM

View PostTumri, on 01 October 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

http://imgur.com/a/ZsGuZ

Light dummy. Have 100% glass cannon maximum damage spec. Have maximum damage traits and full adrenaline for the 12% adrenaline based damage trait. Highest hits were 2500 against the light armor target dummy. The light armor target dummy has only the absolute base 1800 armor with no toughness. The medium and heavy dummies have the absolute base 2000 and 2200 armor base that those two armor classes have. If you had 3k+ armor as shown in your screenshot it would have been -IMPOSSIBLE- to hit that hard. It's impossible to hit that hit even if you had 0 toughness/1800 armor without max might stacks and a few vulnerability applications on you.

Eat more dumplings for the next test. :lol:  3.7k on a heavy dummy, on medium dummy I hit for ~4.5k....didnt try that long. Seriously, thank you doing these tests. I did use of course the utilites from my bar to get a higher dmg output.

Posted Image

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I cant say if I had debuffs on me or if the opponent had buffs, the combat log is only limited but the fight was short.


By the way, which skill can lower the toughness from an opponent ? And where can I read about the dummy defence values you talk about ?

Thank you

Edited by oxmox, 01 October 2012 - 10:02 PM.


#16 Kutsus

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Posted 02 October 2012 - 03:07 AM

I don't think dummy defense works the same way as players. I've hit a glass cannon thief for 11.7k with cluster bomb (thief shortbow AOE) without any special buffs, but I can't hit over 8k on the light target dummy.

#17 Falhawk

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:27 AM

I was hit several times today with bladetrail up to 2000K. I have 1860 toughness and was simply blown away by this guy with ultra speed. He he took me several times within 2-3 seconds each time. With quickness I was simply completely unable to react. I normally know how to avoid 100b and stuff like that but it was impossible.

After this I see no point in going so high in toughness. Its just not worth it. Anyone know if there is a diminishing return on toughness? I know its a bit of topic...

Lol, I just ragequit and wrote this.

#18 Tumri

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 07:45 AM

View Postoxmox, on 01 October 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

Eat more dumplings for the next test. :lol:  3.7k on a heavy dummy, on medium dummy I hit for ~4.5k....didnt try that long. Seriously, thank you doing these tests. I did use of course the utilites from my bar to get a higher dmg output.

Posted Image

Posted Image


I cant say if I had debuffs on me or if the opponent had buffs, the combat log is only limited but the fight was short.


By the way, which skill can lower the toughness from an opponent ? And where can I read about the dummy defence values you talk about ?

Thank you

This doesn't seem even remotely legit. Bladetrail's damage is approximately the same as the auto attack on the GS. Just look at the tooltip damage and compare. Your AAs were hitting for 1.1k but somehow bladetrail on the log shows 3.5k. It might be a bug with some trait or something to that effect but that's not normal.

Edit: So you stacked might. Right. That's totally fair. Let me go get a 25 stack of might and auto attack with any random ability and I promise you it'll hit REALLY hard.

Edited by Tumri, 03 October 2012 - 07:46 AM.


#19 Fimconte

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Posted 03 October 2012 - 05:39 PM

Yes because it's impossible for GS warriors to easily hit ~10+ stacks when bursting. /s

But that doesn't change the fact that tanky gear/spec =/= that you can sit in HB and soak damage like a wall.

Edited by Fimconte, 03 October 2012 - 05:41 PM.


#20 Drexar

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 03:46 AM

View PostFalhawk, on 03 October 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

I was hit several times today with bladetrail up to 2000K. I have 1860 toughness and was simply blown away by this guy with ultra speed. He he took me several times within 2-3 seconds each time. With quickness I was simply completely unable to react. I normally know how to avoid 100b and stuff like that but it was impossible.

After this I see no point in going so high in toughness. Its just not worth it. Anyone know if there is a diminishing return on toughness? I know its a bit of topic...

Lol, I just ragequit and wrote this.

I will roll a warrior if Bladetrail hits for 2000K :P

#21 Falhawk

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 06:03 AM

View PostDrexar, on 04 October 2012 - 03:46 AM, said:

I will roll a warrior if Bladetrail hits for 2000K :P

2000k is not that much, I know :-). My real issue was the quickness (Frenzy its called?).

#22 Scarlet_Blossom

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 10:46 AM

View PostFalhawk, on 04 October 2012 - 06:03 AM, said:

2000k is not that much, I know :-). My real issue was the quickness (Frenzy its called?).

2000000 damage is quite a lot to be honest.

#23 Falhawk

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Posted 04 October 2012 - 04:19 PM

View PostScarlet_Blossom, on 04 October 2012 - 10:46 AM, said:

2000000 damage is quite a lot to be honest.

lol, I see it now. Took my slow brain some time to process what I actually wrote - 2 times:-) 2k...

#24 Fanatic

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:53 AM

we can never be 100% sure if your talking truth

#25 oxmox

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 03:40 AM

I knew it, something was wrong with Bladetrail :devil: and hope they fix it or fixed it already.

Look what damage others can do - what a bout 42510 damage on a heavy golem ?

Posted Image

#26 oxmox

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 11:49 AM

Here is the thread about it on the official GW2 forum:

https://forum-en.gui...mage-bladetrail

Edited by oxmox, 30 October 2012 - 11:49 AM.


#27 PresidentsBushes

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 01:36 PM

View PostTumri, on 30 September 2012 - 10:25 PM, said:

I'm saying it's mathematically impossible for those hits to be as hard as they are on a 3100 armor target. It's complete bullshit or a troll. The only possible explanation is some crazy 25 vuln stack on the target whilst the warrior simultaneously had 25 stack might. Bladetrail simply does not hit that hard. You ARE posting bullshit because it's literally impossible for a Bladetrail to hit for 5k.
Funny looking back on this seeing how idiots like you call bullshit and never think there is a bug. This game bugs all the time, I hit a 24k with bladetrail the other day and its a known issue.




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