285 replies to this topic

[zip]

Kind sir,

Allow me to rectify your aberration.

Brand, on 04 December 2012 - 10:54 PM, said:

It's Sonic Boon™

[Brand]

zip, on 04 December 2012 - 11:23 PM, said:

Kind sir,
Allow me to rectify your aberration.

Yeah, sure. I like that. Since it is my build, and I'm like the only one on these forums to actually give their build a clever name.

However, this whole debacle is quite frankly off topic, I'd prefer my post actually be read rather than buried under a bunch of non important comments. Like I said, want to talk about me? Make a thread for that. Otherwise, I'd like to hear some intelligent discussion regarding this build and the falsities/inconsistencies I pointed out in my post.

[zip]

There is no point in discussion with individuals who are self-biased and have an inherit need to impose their ideas on every post and reply as if it were their lifes calling.

[Arngrim Einheri]

So what is the weak point of this build?

[Brand]

zip, on 05 December 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

There is no point in discussion with individuals who are self-biased and have an inherit need to impose their ideas on every post and reply as if it were their lifes calling.

Yes, because I did not just state (And you can check for yourself, by all means) that I in fact do tell people of other builds. I refer to Sithicus' build quite a bit for those looking for a tankier build, I throw out Strife's build for those looking to use an Axe, I even post serveral other build ideas that I did not create, such as Sword/Warhorn and Hammer/LB and refer people to those who talked about said builds (Lucav and Siroso). In fact, I just posted earlier about such a matter here (Note that I've posted that same quote, as a reference to that Hammer/LB build, in 3 different threads so far).

I can see why you call me self biased, since it's very clear that I think my build is the only good one. Excuse me while I post a little quote from the OP here:

Red_Falcon, on 16 October 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

Warrior class is full of kids with Dual Axes / Wammo shout / signet builds who think they are the best setups and I hardly want to go through the process of explaining them why this is awful terribad noobdom.

Maybe I should be more like Red_Falcon, insulting every single build out there for warriors except my own.

Also your remark there about my "Inherit need" is quite biased and speculative in and of itself. You don'tr know me, nor can you prove such a statement. Obviously it isn't true, I'm active on my thread and subsequently on the forums. When I maintain my thread I look at the other posts that have been made. Giving my input on a subject is what forums are for.

Not to mention that (Outside of Sonic Boon) I've seen significantly more forum posts here by MrCats, talking about his build. So I suppose the best reason you can come up with for singling me out and debating such a trivial matter is the fact that I named my build something cool, and have a lot of fans/supporters.

It's painfully obvious how wrong you both are, so I'm not going to contribute to this off topic discussion any more. Have a great day, and by all means, stop by my thread and try to pick out a false promise or inconsistency in my build. Perhaps you'd like to read through the comments there and see all of the people that I have helped in great detail, or given them a link to another, more effective build for the playstyle they wanted, etc.

To really bring this home, I think I'll quote Sithicus:

Sithicus Dias, on 04 December 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

But how people will simply defy reason with conjecture will always confuse me.

Edited by Brand, 05 December 2012 - 01:03 AM.

[Brand]

Arngrim Einheri, on 05 December 2012 - 12:29 AM, said:

So what is the weak point of this build?

Basically Arngrim, this:

Brand, on 03 December 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

Ok so, this build was brought up on my thread, and I'd like to point out inconsistencies and issues with it. Take note that this is not bashing or flaming, I am just pointing out things that do not add up or are not efficient. I am merely doing this to bring light to this post, rather than due to any personal gripe or arrogant attitude.

I'm just going to start at the head of the post and work my way down...

At the top it says x25 might stacks, this makes a reader assume that you can not only get those stacks, but keep them as well. Fact of the matter is, the only time you would ever get 25 might stacks with this build without major group support, is if you had out the Greatsword. Even if you do have out the Greatsword, getting 25 stacks is highly improbable. You don't use Signet of Rage for the 5 free stacks, you barely have any boon duration so "For Great Justice!" is only giving you three stacks. You get 4 stacks of Might from your Elite on a ridiculous cooldown, the 3 from "For Great Justice!", and 5 second stacks from Forceful Greatsword every time you crit. If you think that even matters, think again, as a post by Lilitu explains:

Strike through the irrelevant bit.

That is accurate, self explaining math that anyone should be able to follow. Add up the sources (4+3+5 = 12), and you get 12 stacks of Might (During Battle Standard, and if you are constantly attacking with the Greatsword only) and that's if you have 80% Crit, which this build does not. If you add up all his gear choices (Assuming Ruby Jewels in armor), you get 74% crit with a constant Fury buff. That said, I don't see any way that this build would achieve constant Fury either. You get it for the duration of Battle Standard, and you get 8 seconds from "For Great Justice!", testing shows that the Fury gained here ends after 112 seconds, making Fury up only 8 seconds every 25 for the last 80 seconds. This ends up being ~26 seconds of Fury if I am not mistaken, adding that to the 112 and then dividing by 192 (Banner CD) gives us a Fury up time of ~72%, far from constant. You could supplement this number slightly by using the Greatsword burst skill (Generally accepted as an awful idea, and in any GS build you should be taking Berserker's Power and/or Heightened Focus) but that would take away from your Might stacking as it is a slow hitting skill.

Next is the the screenshot which, as commented on in Lilitu's post, is a "little misleading". The screenshot does not belong to him, as far as I can tell he did not ask for permission, he did not credit the owner, and most importantly I believe it portrays a build that is not this one. If I am seeing this right, it reflects another member's build, which is more damage oriented.

Lastly in the header, a point in your favor, the shield should also be accounted for in your "Traitable Weapons".

Next is the "This build offers" section, in which he states that the build is capable of great damage, great survivability, great control, great mobility, very good condition removal, and the ability to use 6 weapons to their full effectiveness.

The build does not provide "great damage" it provides good damage at best. With 30 points in Defense and less than 15 average might stacks, you definitely aren't doing anything "great" in this regard.

Great suvivability is something you don't have either. With the amount of points you sacrifice to damage in leu of defensive stats, you're only ending up in the "good" section here, too.

Great control and mobility are both relative to the current build you are using (As well as damage, matter of fact..) and you can't really say that your entire build has all these things seeing as it's three seperate builds meshed together using one trait set and 8 weapons. I also wouldn't call your control "great", however the mobility is pretty high due to Signet of Stamina (Which you for some reason remove from the mobility build).

Very good condition removal is yet another overstatement. You have Mending to remove two, and Signet of Stamina (In 2/3 builds) which removes all of your conditions. Problem is, you would only ever use that Signet if you had many conditions since it is on a 36 second cooldown (Traited). Not to mention, in most scenarios you would never gain more than two perhaps three conditions to remove.

Lastly in this section, we have the "ability to use 6 weapons to their full effectiveness." Now I think it should be common sense here that you are not using these weapons (Any of them) to their full effectiveness. You are putting so many traits in all these different ares that nothing is really effective any more. It's simply a very versatile build, but you aren't supposed to be this versatile. Any good build focuses on one or two aspects and creates synergy between them. A support build uses healing/survivability and control, things that compliment each other. What you've done, is taken a fine dps weapon like the Greatsword, and placed it on a mostly tanky build. What this means is that your Greatsword is providing nothing to your build, it's not increasing the effectiveness of it in any way.

This goes the same for all weapons, control sets need you to be more tanky so you can actually stay in and control, condition sets need condition damage and duration, etc.

You say in the build that there is "no weapon setup that alone is capable of dealing with every single situation in the best way". This is certainly true, but you aren't expected to handle all of those situations for your team. Each team member has a duty, rather than have your sub par control skills or dps skills, a team should have a main damager and a main controller. The max efficiency controller allows your role as damager to remain at max efficiency as well. This way is much better, as a "middle-man" build is not effective for you or your team (And can often hurt team dynamics).

Knight's gear is fine, and so are all your other gear choices, except Soldier's runes. At no point ever should this build sacrifice six rune slots so that it's one shout (In only 1/3 builds) can remove one condition every 20 seconds. Not only is that a ridiculous waste, but you gain even more defensive stats that aren't needed.

You use Signet of Fury on a Control build simply for the purpose of gaining adrenaline, which is a monumental waste.

I'd like to point out at this point that your Control build retains the Vulnerability on crit and GS traits in Arms, which are incredibly worthless in such a setup (In fact, all of Arms is practically worthless). Not to mention in your Mobility set you retain the Shield trait which is again, wasted.

You use one pathetic banner, which you have augmented with a trait. You use a two Signets (Though only one in each build) that should remain of cooldown, and have augmented them with a trait to reduce it's cooldown. You have a single 5 second Endure pain stance in one build, and an 8 second Berserker's stance in the other two as well as Frenzy in the last. You have augmented these Stances with 25% duration, increasing Endure pain to 6 seconds, Frenzy to 5 seconds, and Berserker's to 10 seconds. You use one shout in one build that you suggest augmenting with Soldier's runes.

I'm not sure if you noticed, but that's 3 traits and a full set of runes gone to augment each separate skill on your bar. That's not even counting all of the traits you have put into all of your different weapon types (Some of which go wasted completely, the others remain ineffective for the build).

Basically what you have here is a mix-match of skills and traits to support a build philosophy that should not exist. You should never be prepared for every situation, that's like asking a soldier to be trained efficiently in every single type of combat. There may be some that can do it, but a master of 2-3 weapons will always come out on top. You need to rely on others to bring the things your build can't, and you need to build for whatever is most effective for your playstyle.

Build effectiveness is NOT a linear relationship. What this means is that by putting a Greatsword on a full cleric's shout build instead of Mace+Shield, the damage I receive is NOT equal to the defense I lost. This is because the control/defense of Mace+Shield synergizes with the build and increases it's effectiveness, whereas the GS does not have such synergy. The same thing would happen if you put a defensive weapon on an offensive build.

In essence, this build not only lies about a fair number of details, but the details that are true aren't effective in any way. An optimal build is not one that can do everything, it's one that can do a specific thing that your teammates benefit from. Then your teammates have that same option, and can create an effective build that you benefit from.

Instead of having five people who are decent at everything, you get five people each with a specific task, and by doing so group dynamics, social experience, and efficiency all skyrocket.

That's my two copper on this build, again I will say this is not to flame or bash, just putting the facts out there. I realize this is a very long post, and it did take some time to write. Therefore I would appreciate people to read it thoroughly, and upon such a point that they would like to post their thoughts to please make them respectful, mathematically sound, and detailed.

If you have an opinion please state it, but keep in mind all of the math here is correct, and you can test it. All the thing's I've said are very true as well, and as such I'd not like to see people saying, "Brand is wrong, this build is great!" The fact if this build works or not is not the argument I am making. I am simply saying that it is not optimal or effective by any definition.

Look forward to replies, perhaps some people will recognize this build's flaws, lies, and inefficiencies as I have.

[7hm]

Brand, on 05 December 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

Yes, because I did not just state (And you can check for yourself, by all means) that I in fact do tell people of other builds. I refer to Sithicus' build quite a bit for those looking for a tankier build, I throw out Strife's build for those looking to use an Axe, I even post serveral other build ideas that I did not create, such as Sword/Warhorn and Hammer/LB and refer people to those who talked about said builds (Lucav and Siroso). In fact, I just posted earlier about such a matter here.

I can see why you call me self biased, since it's very clear that I think my build is the only good one. Excuse me while I post a little quote from the OP here:

Maybe I should be more like Red_Falcon, insulting every single build out there for warriors except my own.

Also your remark there about my "Inherit need" is quite biased and speculative in and of itself. You don'tr know me, nor can you prove such a statement. Obviously it isn't true, I'm active on my thread and subsequently on the forums. When I maintain my thread I look at the other posts that have been made. Giving my input on a subject is what forums are for.

Not to mention that (Outside of Sonic Boon) I've seen significantly more forum posts here by MrCats, talking about his build. So I suppose the best reason you can come up with for singling me out and debating such a trivial matter is the fact that I named my build something cool, and have a lot of fans/supporters.

It's painfully obvious how wrong you both are, so I'm not going to contribute to this off topic discussion any more. Have a great day, and by all means, stop by my thread and try to pick out a false promise or inconsistency in my build. Perhaps you'd like to read through the comments there and see all of the people that I have helped in great detail, or given them a link to another, more effective build for the playstyle they wanted, etc.

zip, on 05 December 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

There is no point in discussion with individuals who are self-biased and have an inherit need to impose their ideas on every post and reply as if it were their lifes calling.

Notice how zip generalized people' attitude not you in particular. Also, you contradict yourself since you say you are active and constantly replying to every single warrior thread and mostly all of them show you advertising your build. You seem apt to try to come off as intelligent; so as a suggestion, don't assume people single you out because you named "your" build something "cool".

[MrCats]

If anyone has randomly found this build, please look through the pages. There has been a discussion of numbers before now.I don't have something agaisnt Brand mind. I just see this build, albeit an old GS one i used when i hit 80 and i still think it is pretty good considering the circumstances. The build doesn't specialise in anything but might gain (GS) and ofcourse holding it for as long as possible. All i'm saying is that if the build is designed for that then you will need to accomdate your runes/sigils for it. Maybe it was a mistake on the front page that wasn't addressed. There is no clear set of optimal runes or sigils there but they're within the main body. Check 4-7.

As for the build itself, it worked for me in the past. No reason why it shouldn't work for others if they prefer the defence and attack over attack and heals, or defence and heals etc. Have fun with whatever build you like.

Edited by MrCats, 05 December 2012 - 02:18 AM.

[Brand]

7hm, on 05 December 2012 - 12:59 AM, said:

Notice how zip generalized people' attitude not you in particular. Also, you contradict yourself since you say you are active and constantly replying to every single warrior thread and mostly all of them show you advertising your build. You seem apt to try to come off as intelligent; so as a suggestion, don't assume people single you out because you named "your" build something "cool".

Whether you want to say zip generalized or not, it doesn't matter. S/he was talking to me, and the comment was very much geared toward me (It was after all, a response to my post). I'll get to your next point in a second as I'd first like to clarify how much of a jest the "Build named something cool" was. It was meant as a sarcastic comment, which would imply that the only thing they had against me was nothing. I put a valid and truthful counter argument for every single argument they had against me, what else is left but the snazzy title on my build? (And yes, it is MY build as the current rendition of it has not been thought of by any, not to mention I was the first to post it, and the first to thoroughly explain it etc. Just because someone else thought of the same build or a similar concept before me does not make it any less mine. You have to represent your ideas for them to become yours, it's almost like... Sonic Boon™)

For your second gripe there about how I "contradict myself since I say am active and constantly replying to every single warrior thread and mostly all of them show me advertising my build." I'd just like to show you something... My content.

I want you to count all of the posts where I have "Advertised" my build. In order for it to count, these conditions must be met:
1) No post was made that related to a Greatsword build such as Sonic Boon.
2) No poster was looking for a build such as Sonic Boon.
4) I didn't used Sonic Boon as a comparison tool.

Obviously all posts on my thread do not count, since that is where I am supposed to be advertising my build.

Basically, we're looking for instances when I jump out of the wood work for no reason in a discussion that has nothing to do with Sonic Boon, and I post my build and say "If you like being cool, try this!"

I'm seeing one post, on Strife's thread, and to be honest even that had some merit. Particularly considering how hard Strife was bashing the Greatsword.

While you're there with your pen and paper out doing tally marks, count all the posts where I suggest/link a build that are NOT Sonic Boon. It's very high.

I have evidence to back up all of my statements, sir. You seem apt to try to come off as intelligent; so as a suggestion, don't assume at random and research your arguments thoroughly before you post them please.

Edited by Brand, 05 December 2012 - 04:11 AM.

[Brand]

MrCats, on 05 December 2012 - 01:56 AM, said:

The build doesn't specialise in anything but might gain (GS) and ofcourse holding it for as long as possible. All i'm saying is that if the build is designed for that then you will need to accomdate your runes/sigils for it. Maybe it was a mistake on the front page that wasn't addressed. There is no clear set of optimal runes or sigils there but they're within the main body.

I'd like to say here that this build does not specialize in might gain, and it doesn't hold it as long as possible. Disregarding the fact that the build is clearly NOT designed for that, I'm basing my words on the things Red_Falcon has said in the comment and the main post.

He offers Sigil of Sup Accuracy here:

Red_Falcon, on 04 October 2012 - 08:46 PM, said:

It's personal preference, but I grab sup accuracy on GS.

And "Crit sigils" here:

Red_Falcon, on 16 October 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

I tend to go with crit sigils in order to maximize crit chance.
Since this build has very high crit damage, the higheryour crit, the better your overall damage.

He TALKS DOWN on sigil of strength here:

Red_Falcon, on 16 October 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

You don't really need might honestly, you can get 25 stacks easily, you better max your crit.

At no point does he talk about using anything other than Runes of Divinity, Runes of the Soldier, or Ruby orbs in his build. However, there are many speculative posts by other users suggesting other traits/runes/sigls, but again, were talking about the OP's build, not the builds that are speculated.

I have looked through the entire thread for this information. I stress that no discussion should ever be taken personally, these are facts, not opinions (Just because they are harsh facts, it doesn't mean I'm insulting anyone). I agree that you should have fun with whatever build you like, but it should be optimal for your team. Basically what this means is that you pick a weapon set you like, and find a build for that weapon set that you really like.

This build is not optimal or effective in any way, and users should really finds a more defined, optimal build.

[MrCats]

Ah ok, i see where you got your ideas from. I was looking at the entire thread. Not the proposed build itself.

[Brand]

MrCats, on 05 December 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

Ah ok, i see where you got your ideas from. I was looking at the entire thread. Not the proposed build itself.

Yes, you must keep in mind that many people aren't going to read through the entire thread looking for things that make the build more efficient. They expect the build to be efficient and updated in the main post. Since the OP has not been updated or changed to reflect builds speculated by others, it must then be assumed that Red_Falcon still finds his rendition to be the best. Which is why I exposed all of it's flaws, to reduce the amount of people trying to use this ineffective build.

(If this doesn't count as advertising: This is the reason you need to keep your builds updated and current, and listen to speculation by posters. Sonic Boon has been updated 3 times now based on ideas from posters, and they were all given credit.)

Edited by Brand, 05 December 2012 - 03:46 AM.

[Sithicus Dias]

I think it's easy for people to criticize this build, however it must be said that criticism seems largely drawn from the out of date front page. I think this build was posted at a time when there was very little in the way of written builds (let alone DPS builds). As a result, this build was favoured by players who like to find a build they might like to try, and then give it a go. Since then, it seems the average poster in the Warrior forums is more clued up about the numbers.

My only question would be is it possible the author could update the OP to address some of the general trends, and suggestions from what is clearly a fairly significant number of players interested in this build. Updating an OP is vital to keep threads like this up to date, especially when they get as long as this one is now.

I think while generally I would have some of the same questions as Brand when it comes to different aspects of this build,  I don't really have time to read the thread properly, as such my credibility in asking questions would be limited here. As such I think the criticisms for this build are somewhat skewed, I mean you can't criticize an Academic's Thesis based on his Hypothesis, you need to read the whole body of the work to see if it was really a good idea.

Edited by Sithicus Dias, 05 December 2012 - 09:18 AM.

[Brand]

Sithicus Dias, on 05 December 2012 - 09:14 AM, said:

I think it's easy for people to criticize this build, however it must be said that criticism seems largely drawn from the out of date front page. I think this build was posted at a time when there was very little in the way of written builds (let alone DPS builds). As a result, this build was favoured by players who like to find a build they might like to try, and then give it a go. Since then, it seems the average poster in the Warrior forums is more clued up about the numbers.

My only question would be is it possible the author could update the OP to address some of the general trends, and suggestions from what is clearly a fairly significant number of players interested in this build. Updating an OP is vital to keep threads like this up to date, especially when they get as long as this one is now.

I think while generally I would have some of the same questions as Brand when it comes to different aspects of this build,  I don't really have time to read the thread properly, as such my credibility in asking questions would be limited here. As such I think the criticisms for this build are somewhat skewed, I mean you can't criticize an Academic's Thesis based on his Hypothesis, you need to read the whole body of the work to see if it was really a good idea.

While true, if you did read through the comments, you'll see that even while other suggestions were being thought of he stuck to his guns with the original build. Combine that with the fact that Red_Falcon is a pretty active poster, and you should be able to assume without much doubt that the OP is the way he wants it. My problems with this build are specific to the main post, as you can't really accept speculation by members to be fact (Imagine if I didn't explain the choices for Sonic Boon thoroughly, and people posted ideas that I shrugged off. The ideas might be good, but if I'm sticking to my guns with the OP then the build doesn't change.)

Again, my issue is the main post, and the lies in it. The main post is what most people are going to refer to, and I just wanted to shed some light on it to hopefully diminish the number of people using a build as ineffective as the OP.

(Also, really Sith? Updating keeps a thread up to date? *Mind blown* xD Sorry, I had to )

[Red_Falcon]

Brand, I actually posted what the build specializes about:

Quote

A Warrior’s role is to be a mobile fighter capable to adapt to every situation, not die and deal gigantic amounts of DPS: this build achieves exactly this.

This build offers:

• Great Damage
  
• Great Survivability
  
• Great Control
  
• Great Mobility
  
• Very good Condition Removal
  
• Ability to use 6 weapons at their full efficiency

The core of this build is versatility, aka the ability to swap to -any- Warrior weapon at any point while having it traited at its best efficiency, while also maximizing the ability to negate damage and deal great damage.

I've used this build widely and wildly in all type of content including Fractal up to lvl 22 with great success, and it's very effective.
Many others have been reporting the same degree of success too.
Just because it's not *your* cup of tea it doesn't mean it's not effective or it doesn't achieve what I stated, not all Warriors need to be the copy of what *you* find yourself to be best with.
Also, I haven't "bashed" sigil of might, I've actually said *I* prefer accuracy myself - but the ultimate choice is up to the user.
I don't want to force people to use exactly what I do, nor I believe there is a "best" rune/sigil setup for all situations and all playstyles.

If you believe you have a better build you're free to make your own thread rather than bashing mine without any physical evidence.
I started playing a Warrior 3 months before you even registered to this forum, you're coming off as a jerky newb who wants attention and fame through bashing a famous build.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 05 December 2012 - 11:56 AM.

[Symbiont]

you were trying to sell me the latest graphics card weren't you?

[Brand]

Red_Falcon, on 05 December 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

The core of this build is versatility, aka the ability to swap to -any- Warrior weapon at any point while having it traited at its best efficiency, while also maximizing the ability to negate damage and deal great damage.

I've used this build widely and wildly in all type of content including Fractal up to lvl 22 with great success, and it's very effective.
Many others have been reporting the same degree of success too.
Just because it's not *your* cup of tea it doesn't mean it's not effective or it doesn't achieve what I stated, not all Warriors need to be the copy of what *you* find yourself to be best with.
Also, I haven't "bashed" sigil of might, I've actually said *I* prefer accuracy myself - but the ultimate choice is up to the user.
I don't want to force people to use exactly what I do, nor I believe there is a "best" rune/sigil setup for all situations and all playstyles.

If you believe you have a better build you're free to make your own thread rather than bashing mine without any physical evidence.
I started playing a Warrior 3 months before you even registered to this forum, you're coming off as a jerky newb who wants attention and fame through bashing a famous build.

Hokay. So it's pretty obvious that you read nothing that I said, or at least not thoroughly. Going through the colors:

Yes, perhaps you do have the weapons TRAITED to their max efficiency. You state in the build, however, that they are at their "Full efficiency" which they are not.

I NEVER brought my personal opinion towards this build into the discussion. Everything I said was factual, based off of your posts, the build, math, testing, etc. I also very much know that not all warriors need to use what I like best. Which is why I post many builds other than my own, such as Strife's, Sithicus', Siroso's, Lucav's, etc.

I don't know why you put bashed in quotes, because I never even said that. Usually quotes actually quote someone. I said you "TALKED DOWN" on it, which you did. You said you did not think the might was worth it and "You better max your crit." Bashing is hostile and aggresive, talking down means "To depreciate" which in turn means that you think it is not needed or that you value it less. By saying you thought it wasn't worth it, and that crit was better, you talked down on it.

I have.

I specifically stated in my post that I was not intending to bash or flame you. Simply bringing to light inefficiencies/falsities in the build. Also, I do have evidence (I'm not sure what you mean by physical here, since no material evidence can ever be provided in a game) which I did in fact post in my argument. Math and etc as to why the build cannot do everything it says it can.

Telling me that you started playing a warrior 3 months before I joined the forums is a really pitiful argument. I've been in the game since the end of beta and since 50 seconds after prelaunch started, playing a warrior. My time on the forums has no hold on the amount of experience I have as a warrior. It also makes you sound very pretentious, as if trying to prove that you are better than me.

Perhaps to people who did not read half of my post, I come off that way. I already have plenty of attention, I don't need to get it in your thread. Calling your build famous again makes you sound pretentious. Perhaps "Popular two months ago because it had 'Invincible' in the title" would be a much better phrasing.

I made perfectly logical and accurate statements about your build. "Defying my reason with conjecture", as Sithicus so nicely puts it, makes you seem like the "jerky newb". I'm not sure what I expected though, any logical/mathematical discussion brought to this build so far has been laughed at by you. Apparently you prefer to make arguments personal, rather than actually discuss the problems with your build.

Edited by Brand, 06 December 2012 - 01:44 AM.

[Khrushchev]

Brand, on 05 December 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

snip

Oh god my eyes they burn.

[Brand]

Khrushchev, on 05 December 2012 - 09:14 PM, said:

Oh god my eyes they burn.

I like my rainbow posts I find it to be a pretty efficient way to cover every point so that the person I'm talking to knows exactly what each section is referring to.

[Red_Falcon]

Brand, on 05 December 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

Hokay. So it's pretty obvious that you read nothing that I said, or at least not thoroughly. Going through the colors:

Noooo not a colors post nooo!

Quote

Yes, perhaps you do have the weapons TRAITED to their max efficiency. You state in the build, however, that they are at their "Full efficiency" which they are not.

That's your opinion; I don't see how they're not at their best efficiency and you failed to show it so far.

Quote

I NEVER brought my personal opinion towards this build into the discussion. Everything I said was factual, based off of your posts, the build, math, testing, etc. I also very much know that not all warriors need to use what I like best. Which is why I post many builds other than my own, such as Strife's, Sithicus', Siroso's, Lucav's, etc.

All you said was that my build is not efficient but you did not prove that in any way. I see no math nor videos anywhere in your posts.
It's just your opinion.

Quote

I don't know why you put bashed in quotes, because I never even said that. Usually quotes actually quote someone. I said you "TALKED DOWN" on it, which you did. You said you did not think the might was worth it and "You better max your crit." Bashing is hostile and aggresive, talking down means "To depreciate" which in turn means that you think it is not needed or that you value it less. By saying you thought it wasn't worth it, and that crit was better, you talked down on it.
I have.

I haven't talked down on might sigil, I said I prefer another sigil.
Expressing a preference doesn't mean talking down. That's very different.
It's like you ask me if I like Britney Spears and I tell you I prefer Rihanna, it doesn't mean I'm talking down on Brit.

Quote

I specifically stated in my post that I was not intending to bash or flame you. Simply bringing to light inefficiencies/falsities in the build. Also, I do have evidence (I'm not sure what you mean by physical here, since no material evidence can ever be provided in a game) which I did in fact post in my argument. Math and etc as to why the build cannot do everything it says it can.

I've yet to see any of that evidence. They're all your opinions so far, that's why your posts here sound like a lot of bull.

Quote

Telling me that you started playing a warrior 3 months before I joined the forums is a really pitiful argument. I've been in the game since the end of beta and since 50 seconds after prelaunch started, playing a warrior. My time on the forums has no hold on the amount of experience I have as a warrior. It also makes you sound very pretentious, as if trying to prove that you are better than me.

Perhaps to people who did not read half of my post, I come off that way. I already have plenty of attention, I don't need to get it in your thread. Calling your build famous again makes you sound pretentious. Perhaps "Popular two months ago because it had 'Invincible' in the title" would be a much better phrasing.

Yeah, you played since day -1 for sure, and yet you only came here now.
What I see for sure is that registered here a handful of days ago and promptly came here to say this build is inefficient out of nowhere.
That, and the fact I'm hearing from my fellows that you're a shout build maker really make it hard to give you any credibility.

To be honest, GW2 Warrior is probably the easiest class I've min-maxed in the last 20 years, I doubt there is anything I could have missed.
If you have any suggestion to improve it then post evidence, if you don't have either then I have no reason to listen to you talking down on my build without the slighest clue.

[Brand]

I'll reply more thoroughly when I can, for now, check out post #201. That is my original post with math, etc.

[Brand]

Red_Falcon, on 06 December 2012 - 08:15 AM, said:

1) That's your opinion; I don't see how they're not at their best efficiency and you failed to show it so far. All you said was that my build is not efficient but you did not prove that in any way. I see no math nor videos anywhere in your posts.
It's just your opinion.

2) I haven't talked down on might sigil, I said I prefer another sigil.
Expressing a preference doesn't mean talking down. That's very different.
It's like you ask me if I like Britney Spears and I tell you I prefer Rihanna, it doesn't mean I'm talking down on Brit.

3) I've yet to see any of that evidence. They're all your opinions so far, that's why your posts here sound like a lot of bull.

4) Yeah, you played since day -1 for sure, and yet you only came here now.
What I see for sure is that registered here a handful of days ago and promptly came here to say this build is inefficient out of nowhere.
That, and the fact I'm hearing from my fellows that you're a shout build maker really make it hard to give you any credibility.

To be honest, GW2 Warrior is probably the easiest class I've min-maxed in the last 20 years, I doubt there is anything I could have missed.
If you have any suggestion to improve it then post evidence, if you don't have either then I have no reason to listen to you talking down on my build without the slighest clue.

1) I showed most of it here:

Brand, on 03 December 2012 - 11:17 PM, said:

Knight's gear is fine, and so are all your other gear choices, except Soldier's runes. At no point ever should this build sacrifice six rune slots so that it's one shout (In only 1/3 builds) can remove one condition every 20 seconds. Not only is that a ridiculous waste, but you gain even more defensive stats that aren't needed. You use Signet of Fury on a Control build simply for the purpose of gaining adrenaline, which is a monumental waste. I'd like to point out here that your Control build retains the Vulnerability on crit and GS traits in Arms, which are incredibly worthless in such a setup (In fact, all of Arms is practically worthless). Not to mention in your Mobility set you retain the Shield trait which is again, wasted.

You use one pathetic banner, which you have augmented with a trait. You use two Signets (Though only one in each build) that should remain off cooldown, and have augmented them with a trait to reduce it's cooldown. You have a single 5 second Endure pain stance in one build, and an 8 second Berserker's stance in the other two as well as Frenzy in the last. You have augmented these Stances with 25% duration, increasing Endure pain to 6 seconds, Frenzy to 5 seconds, and Berserker's to 10 seconds. You use one shout in one build that you suggest augmenting with Soldier's runes.

I'm not sure if you noticed, but that's 3 traits and a full set of runes gone to augment each separate skill on your bar. That's not even counting all of the traits you have put into all of your different weapon types (Some of which go wasted completely, the others remain ineffective for the build).
Basically what you have here is a mix-match of skills and traits to support a build philosophy that should not exist. You should never be prepared for every situation, that's like asking a soldier to be trained efficiently in every single type of combat. There may be some that can do it, but a master of 2-3 weapons will always come out on top. You need to rely on others to bring the things your build can't, and you need to build for whatever is most effective for your playstyle.

Build effectiveness is NOT a linear relationship. What this means is that by putting a Greatsword on a full cleric's shout build instead of Mace+Shield, the damage I receive is NOT equal to the defense I lost. This is because the control/defense of Mace+Shield synergizes with the build and increases it's effectiveness, whereas the GS does not have such synergy. The same thing would happen if you put a defensive weapon on an offensive build.

2) No you did not say you preferred another sigil. You said that you could not see Sigil of Strength as worthwhile, and that crit was better. I will quote you:

Red_Falcon, on 16 October 2012 - 11:19 PM, said:

You don't really need might honestly, you can get 25 stacks easily, you better max your crit.

That is the one and only time you were asked a question about Sigil of Strength, and you responded that you "Didn't need it" and that "You better max your crit." That is not a preference, that is an observation. It is an observation showing one thing to have less value than another, which is to say, talking down on it.

3) I'm not going to quote my whole post, like I said, it's number 201 in the thread here, page 7 in the middle.

4) ... Forums aren't required to play, you know? I tend to play the game before I post my ideas about it. Also, if by handful of days ago, you mean a month, then yes. As for proof that I've been here since day one, that's pretty hard to get, though I think I can. This is a website I made for my guild, as you can see it was created August 27, two days after I got in game and made my guild. Also, here is a screenshot of the guild history, in which it says the message of the day was changed 3 months ago (It only goes by months, it should be closer to 4, but if you look there, I changed the MotD to incorporate the Guild website right after the site was created, on the 27) by yours truly. Hell, have this too. I did edit them to conceal personal information.

I hadn't even touched your forum until a person brought it up on my thread:

Kanister, on 02 December 2012 - 03:38 PM, said:

How does Sonic Boon compare to the Invincible berserker one?
http://www.guildwars...erker-its-back/

The credibility thing is on you, Sonic Boon is a great build, just because you are biased against shouts doesn't mean it isn't. It's also very popular, over 32k views in less than a month, with almost 300 replies. Regardless, were talking about YOUR build, I didn't come here to talk about MY build.
(Though you are free to go over to Sonic Boon and post evidence why it is bad, or your feelings on the matter. However, expect to be properly refuted.)

Look at my comment #201

Edited by Brand, 06 December 2012 - 01:24 PM.

[Setharos]

I recall pointing out before in this thread if superior sigil of strength on gs would be better than the sup sigil of accuracy. One of the things i did noticed before it was very hard to achieve 25 max might stacks with that sigil, and even if i did, they wouldnt last for very long. Well I did get that sigil(sup. sigil of str), and it ends up with superior sigil of strength is really better by far than the sigil of sup. acc((the 5% crit chance one) when its about mantaining and achieving a high number of  might stacks without group setup help.
I run with sup. runes of divinity, and i get around 3k armor, but even then, i still do take some heavy hits.
Something around this: http://www.guildhead...z7kGL70V7ofD70m
But with knight armor and zerker acessories as OP suggested.
I do find out that I don't like very much going a bit on tactics just to invest on the banner which I don't like using much as elite because it is pretty situational, if the group is good, i would barely need to use it(if not even use it), if the group is bad, well i will use it one time and the group will still die anyway and it's gonna be on a long cd.

Even then op's build is actually a good build and pretty flexible. The disavantage is pretty much being almost the number 1 target from everything inside dungeons due to high toughness and ending up having to escape meele range a lot(having to swap to rifles).  I'd appreciate tough some other runes suggestions to try alleviating some damage I take or if I should stick with sup.divinity without losing other important stats in the process.

Edited by Setharos, 07 December 2012 - 12:29 PM.

[Red_Falcon]

Brand, on 06 December 2012 - 11:56 AM, said:

I'm yet another Wammo noob who thinks shout healing is the holy grail

Again? I thought we were done.
All I have to say to you is that no one is interested in your embarassing newbie ramblings, just like they weren't interested in the last preacher of shout wammos or the one before him.
Pro Warriors around here have disproved the validity of shout builds 3 months before you even registered here, and the build is widely accepted to be an inefficient gimmick for below-average Warriors - you're nothing else than the next preacher of failshouts coming here to spit on pro builds thinking you found the meta.
We all extensively played the shout gimmick long before you made that thread, and reposting an existing build definitely doesn't give you credit for its invention either.
I like how you put trademark on a build that's been around for months, taking all credit for it and misleading newbs to think you're the maker, but I digress.

You're free to go preach in your own thread and leave mine for people who actually want to play the Warrior as it is meant to be played - might be a shock to you but most Warriors around here passed the shout phase and learned the game during this time.
You posted your opinion and declared yourself as a shout wammo, I think we can all accept that and go on discussing about serious things now.
See you and good luck learning the ropes of the Warrior class.

Setharos, on 07 December 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

I recall pointing out before in this thread if superior sigil of strength on gs would be better than the sup sigil of accuracy. One of the things i did noticed before it was very hard to achieve 25 max might stacks with that sigil, and even if i did, they wouldnt last for very long. Well I did get that sigil(sup. sigil of str), and it ends up with superior sigil of strength is really better by far than the sigil of sup. acc((the 5% crit chance one) when its about mantaining and achieving a high number of  might stacks without group setup help.
I run with sup. runes of divinity, and i get around 3k armor, but even then, i still do take some heavy hits.
Something around this: http://www.guildhead...z7kGL70V7ofD70m
But with knight armor and zerker acessories as OP suggested.
I do find out that I don't like very much going a bit on tactics just to invest on the banner which I don't like using much as elite because it is pretty situational, if the group is good, i would barely need to use it(if not even use it), if the group is bad, well i will use it one time and the group will still die anyway and it's gonna be on a long cd.

Even then op's build is actually a good build and pretty flexible. The disavantage is pretty much being almost the number 1 target from everything inside dungeons due to high toughness and ending up having to escape meele range a lot(having to swap to rifles).  I'd appreciate tough some other runes suggestions to try alleviating some damage I take or if I should stick with sup.divinity without losing other important stats in the process.

Sadly, the endgame in GW2 doesn't allow for full-time meleeing most of the times, and sadly, no amount of defensive cooldowns or stats can change this.
There will always be a point where you're forced to swap to ranged no matter your setup.
With that said, Earth is prolly the only choice for delaying the need to swap to ranged, but sacrificing divinity/orbs is a stat loss.

I think Anet did a good job in creating anti-melee in endgame, there is little we can do about it beside delaying the time we will need to swap with endure/defy pain and dodges.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 07 December 2012 - 01:45 PM.

[Brand]

Not sure if you've noticed, but your thread dropped a star rating (Down to 2 now) and my posts have gotten several "likes". You say that I'm spitting on your build and yet all of my remarks are completely factual and tested. You are the one making this personal, trying to be some big shot by calling me a noob (And calling the entire idea behind a shout build noobish).

Insinuating that "I'm yet another Wammo noob who thinks shout healing is the holy grail" completely discredits anything you had to say due to you editing a quote like that. It also shows how utterly clueless you are. I support Strife's Axe/Mace build, I support VS builds like Sithicus', I support MrCat's Blood Fury, I support a Hammer/LB Might support build, I support Sword/Warhorn that Lucav uses, I support Nonlinear's build, and I support Sonic Boon.

Dunno if you noticed, but not even half of those are "Wammo shout builds" and 2/3s of the ones that are do great dps as well. The only build on these forums that I do not support, is "Invincible Berserker". I've given reasons, tests, math, and etc to prove how it is inefficient.

You are just the most clueless person I have ever seen, "might be a shock to you but most Warriors around here passed the shout phase and learned the game during this time." As if shout healing isn't part of the game? Are you really prepared to make that claim and discredit yourself even more?

"All I have to say to you is that no one is interested in your embarassing newbie ramblings"
Yeah, only 35,000 viewers who clicked on a build called "Sonic Boon - Shout Greatsword" Mind you that title has 'Shout' in it, and it does not have the word 'Invincible' in it.

"We all extensively played the shout gimmick long before you made that thread, and reposting an existing build definitely doesn't give you credit for its invention either."
I searched extensively, no one has posted a build like Sonic Boon, I am the first.

"I like how you put trademark on a build that's been around for months, taking all credit for it and misleading newbs to think you're the maker"
The TM was a joke based on a comment by zip, it would behoove you to actually read your thread. I give a good amount of credit to Sithicus and the other contributes so far, unlike some people who post screenshots that aren't even theirs.

You are constantly defying my tests and etc by calling me names and bashing shout builds. You do realize that me liking shouts is perfectly acceptable, the only one getting discredited for their ideals here, is you.

It would be a lot easier if you went through my post and gave arguments that didn't have to do with how much of a "newb" I am, then people might actually believe you when you say your build is for pros. Currently you are like a little kid saying "No u."

We're not here to talk about my build, were here to talk about yours. So lets talk. If you want to rant about how much of a "Newbie build" Sonic Boon is, then do it on my thread, not yours.

"I think Anet did a good job in creating anti-melee in endgame, there is little we can do about it beside delaying the time we will need to swap with endure/defy pain and dodges."
Funny, I know plenty of builds that can stand on a boss and melee without using Endure pain twice or Soldier's runes or 30 in defense.

"Again? I thought we were done."
Not the first time that you've been wrong.

Edited by Brand, 07 December 2012 - 02:41 PM.

[Itgotbinned]

You will have to apologise for me asking a rather off topic question here but due to the above argument destroying the thread as a whole I thought id quickly just pose a question to Falcon;

What is it exactly you have against shouts? (Im not defending them as I only ever run SIO in my warriors build anyway, and no I dont use VS either)

This is a genuine question btw

/Binit

[MrCats]

Itgotbinned, on 07 December 2012 - 02:52 PM, said:

You will have to apologise for me asking a rather off topic question here but due to the above argument destroying the thread as a whole I thought id quickly just pose a question to Falcon;

What is it exactly you have against shouts? (Im not defending them as I only ever run SIO in my warriors build anyway, and no I dont use VS either)

This is a genuine question btw

/Binit

When we first started playing the game many lv 80 warriors were rocking some varation of the shout healer build and it was posted here quite a bit. Then it died out for a while when a couple of people (Me included) either got bored of it or just didn't gel with it and over the last month it has come back again.

I don't want to put words in peoples mouths but overtime you may asume that the shout heal build has become the signet build for end game warriors. The stereotype build in other words. There is an image in the past couple pages which replaces "For Great Justice" with "For Great Healing!" with the warrior having a nurse's hat on which was pretty funny too. Kinda shows how long the shout warriors been around.

Edited by MrCats, 07 December 2012 - 05:37 PM.

[Itgotbinned]

Well i understand the stigma behind stereotypical builds etc. especially ye olde signet warriors, but at least there is a solid reason behind that (lack of group support etc. and far better methods of achieveing better DPS ).

but i was more curious as to Falcons views on them and whether they had any substance to it.

/Binit

[MrCats]

Itgotbinned, on 07 December 2012 - 05:44 PM, said:

Well i understand the stigma behind stereotypical builds etc. especially ye olde signet warriors, but at least there is a solid reason behind that (lack of group support etc. and far better methods of achieveing better DPS ).

but i was more curious as to Falcons views on them and whether they had any substance to it.

/Binit

Ok, just thought it was worth throwing out some other opinion on the matter for you.

[Itgotbinned]

Thankyou for that to

If i sounded rude i did not intend to

/Binit