285 replies to this topic

[Red_Falcon]

Butcher, on 06 October 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Yes, because with 30 traits in Toughness, a butt-load of toughness on gear, a quicker regenerating dodge bar, and EP(een?) you sure are sacrificing a whole lot in survivability. I guess, rezzing everyone after what could have been a group wipe (because of superior personal survival) isn't supportive enough.

You so silly.



Maybe you should actually play the build and learn it before making judgements.

As far as I'm concerned, everyone arguing with red are just flapping their lips with nothing to prove their case. It's just a bunch of people wailing "poast #s pl0x!". Put your disillusions aside for a moment and think beyond the builds utility bar.

Get real, people. Actually try the build for yourself for a while, play it right, and then come in here with a verdict. I've been playing the build for a few days now, and my DPS is sky high. My Sword+Axe/Rifle build falls somewhat short of this Berzerker build, but I'm still working on mine. As it rests, this build is just amazing.

So please stop eating around the fruit in the jello.

Thank you for that post.
I prefer that criticism comes from people who actually have a clue of what the build at hand does and tested it.

Defense-wise, you're running around with 3200+ toughness and two Endure Pain, you can hardly get more survivability.

When thinking of support, think of it like this.
In war, a field medic heals wounded units, giving great support to the soldiers but none or little damage.
A M1 Abrams tank instead is dealing fearsome damage while being very resilient, blowing things up before they can harm the soldiers and absorbing otherwise lethal damage.
Now give that tank a banner that resurrect soldiers.


On another note, this build works very well with Rifle too.
The big damage applies even more to Rifle due to the fact CritDmg is affecting it even more than it affects the GS.
If you build up your stacks and then use the Rifle you'll get such big hits that make you look around suspiciously to make sure no one noticed how OP that shot was.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 07 October 2012 - 12:12 AM.

[KrayZ33]

Butcher, on 06 October 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Yes, because with 30 traits in Toughness, a butt-load of toughness on gear, a quicker regenerating dodge bar, and EP(een?) you sure are sacrificing a whole lot in survivability. I guess, rezzing everyone after what could have been a group wipe (because of superior personal survival) isn't supportive enough.

You so silly.

better make sure that you team doesn't wipe in the first place by supporting them
hows that?
and guess what
healing increases your EHP too. and that of others

but thats actually not what I said, I was talking about skills, dem fancy things you put into your utility bar.
not traits.. you can still trait 30 points in toughness and use better skills - its as simple as that

Quote

I can name a ton of enconters where the mobs uses 1200 range pull+oneshot or dozen others "inevitable death" gimmicks; in those situations dodging isn't enough.

thats a lie

Edited by KrayZ33, 07 October 2012 - 12:33 AM.

[Red_Falcon]

Confirmed, Rifle seems to be hitting good considering it's a defensive build.

PS: The Rifle I used is a rare, not exotics. No max damage/stats.
Anyone can try this with exotic? I'm kind of broke now.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 07 October 2012 - 12:37 AM.

[Corteaz]

Heya mate, nub warrior here. I've seen you post around Guru for a while now, and I've come to know that, well, you understand the warrior profession quite well. Right now my 80 warrior is running Knights Gear with Soldier runes, as well as weapons that give Crit/prec/power (Or is it toughness? Haha, need to check, working atm). My jewellery set up however, is Knights as well.

Reading this- is it advisable to sacrifice the Knights jewellery and go for crit? Just when do you exactly 'feel' the diminishing effects of toughness, and when do you actually see it effective?

Thanks.

[Butcher]

KrayZ33, on 07 October 2012 - 12:31 AM, said:

better make sure that you team doesn't wipe in the first place by supporting them
hows that?
and guess what
healing increases your EHP too. and that of others

but thats actually not what I said, I was talking about skills, dem fancy things you put into your utility bar.
not traits.. you can still trait 30 points in toughness and use better skills - its as simple as that.

It's not my utmost duty to keep my team alive. Addtionally where's this "your team" thing coming from, as though I'm supposed to live up to the generic stigma of a tank? Sure there might be better skills to use, if this were a different build. However, you're missing the point entirely when I say that I'm not sacrificing a thing because the skills used for THIS build are perfect...for THIS build.

Are you really that dense?

[KrayZ33]

I never said anything about YOU sacrificing anything, wth?
guess who's dense. l2r and understand m8

Quote

where's this "your team" thing coming from, as though I'm supposed to live up to the generic stigma of a tank?

dude...
just so you know, it has nothing to do with being a tank if anything this build is one of the most tankish you can make
...
people take FGJ instead of the might signet for a reason, the same could be said about "shake it off!" and the endurance signet
especially if someone decides to go with soldier runes

Edited by KrayZ33, 07 October 2012 - 04:59 PM.

[Red_Falcon]

Corteaz, on 07 October 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

Heya mate, nub warrior here. I've seen you post around Guru for a while now, and I've come to know that, well, you understand the warrior profession quite well. Right now my 80 warrior is running Knights Gear with Soldier runes, as well as weapons that give Crit/prec/power (Or is it toughness? Haha, need to check, working atm). My jewellery set up however, is Knights as well.

Reading this- is it advisable to sacrifice the Knights jewellery and go for crit? Just when do you exactly 'feel' the diminishing effects of toughness, and when do you actually see it effective?

Thanks.

Jjewelry is the gear that gives the most crit damage.
If I remember correctly it's 36% crit damage for all jewelry and only 16% from armor, 9% from weapon, 12% for runes/orbs.

Definitely go with crit jewelry, no reason not to.

KrayZ33, on 07 October 2012 - 04:40 PM, said:

I never said anything about YOU sacrificing anything, wth?
guess who's dense. l2r and understand m8



dude...
just so you know, it has nothing to do with being a tank if anything this build is one of the most tankish you can make
...
people take FGJ instead of the might signet for a reason, the same could be said about "shake it off!" and the endurance signet
especially if someone decides to go with soldier runes

I already explained that utilities need to be swapped depending on the situation.

Let's make a real example: the colossus path.
That path is 99% about AoE fights with almost no conditions or control, therefore SIO is useless whereas signet of stamina gives you more dodges to stay alive longer while kiting.

Adapting to situations is pretty much the fundamental rule of a Warrior.
There is no such things as "this skill is always better than this", it's all situational.
If you run around with the same utilties/traits/weapons all the time you're being very inefficient Warrior.

[Alexander Dragonfang]

I don`t like this build.

It`s an hybrid, i thank that, but the combination is awful, this build makes yourself a good tank-dps solo player, but when in party, you are pretty much useless, any dedicated DPS or tank can do it better you, and without tactics you can`t support, this is a build for solo playing, maybe even solo leveling, but in no case for teamplay, unless you have a lot of buddies that will support you and keep you alive...

Those 10 in Dicipline should go to tactics, or even to power but dicipline is plain useless here, you wont get nothing but an already useless signet faster... In dicipline at least you could get some support trait, or in power to support your DPS.


Anyway, is better than any GS hurr durr hundred blades build... And the presentation is perfect. It`s a good build if you go solo.

[Butcher]

@Alexander.

When you're ready to link us a build that does just as much damage without having to sacrifice survivability, then please let us know.

When the going gets tough, I just switch to Axe+Shield and block everything. Then activate EP.
It's really not hard to keep yourself alive with this build. It's also pretty damn good for keeping other people out of danger too.

So what you're telling us is, "hurr durr, i make inexperienced judgement. gief meee credit"

Edited by Butcher, 08 October 2012 - 11:55 AM.

[Domifuling]

"Fixed a bug with Rune of Divinity that was causing it to do 50% more critical damage than listed."

Hmmm, noticed any difference since yesterday? =P

[Alexander Dragonfang]

Butcher, on 08 October 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

@Alexander.

When you're ready to link us a build that does just as much damage without having to sacrifice survivability, then please let us know.

So what you're telling us is, "hurr durr, i make inexperienced judgement. gief meee credit"

If i don`t then what? you will come to hit me or something? lol.

I can`t link such a build cause i think this maybe the best build for that. Im not saying there are better ways or builds to archive this, what i say is this: "This build is useless for teamplay". This builds offers nothing to group but a semi-dps/semi-tank that can`t beat dedicated ones.

So what im telling you is that this is a good build if you go solo, if you go party, it`s terrible.

[Red_Falcon]

Alexander Dragonfang, on 08 October 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

If i don`t then what? you will come to hit me or something? lol.

I can`t link such a build cause i think this maybe the best build for that. Im not saying there are better ways or builds to archive this, what i say is this: "This build is useless for teamplay". This builds offers nothing to group but a semi-dps/semi-tank that can`t beat dedicated ones.

So what im telling you is that this is a good build if you go solo, if you go party, it`s terrible.

So you wanted to hop in and throw an insult to the build without having tried it, nor having a clue about Warrior mechanics and showing that you're another shouting Wammo that is the current joke in dungeon teams.

The build has already been proved very efficient by a few people here who actually have a clue of what they're talking about, so no amount of noobs coming here saying their Wammo builds are good will make a dent into the build.

Domifuling, on 08 October 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

"Fixed a bug with Rune of Divinity that was causing it to do 50% more critical damage than listed."

Hmmm, noticed any difference since yesterday? =P

Good thing I was using Ruby Orbs the whole time

[supacc]

i still find the standard shout warrior build to be superior.

http://www.gw2db.com...|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|


3k+ hp heals with MASSIVE utility, all on a ~20 second cooldown.  from damage buffs, to cc removal, and even a huge enemy debuff (+10% damage for everyone attacking it?!), i don't see how any other build can compare.  with max adren, you are healing for massive amounts, while dealing massive damage (+12% damage along with +9% crit chance and +1.5% damage for every buff on you, meaning +3% at all times from perma FGJ).  and yes, you will learn to swap in some utility skills for when you need it (ie signet of stam/endure pain/battle standard), but for everything that isn't an instance (and even in instances), this build would mop everything up.

i also run a similar armor set up as well (knight's armor+berserker trinkets), but with rune of the soldier.

Edited by supacc, 08 October 2012 - 07:43 PM.

[Alexander Dragonfang]

Red_Falcon, on 08 October 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

So you wanted to hop in and throw an insult to the build without having tried it, nor having a clue about Warrior mechanics and showing that you're another shouting Wammo that is the current joke in dungeon teams.

The build has already been proved very efficient by a few people here who actually have a clue of what they're talking about, so no amount of noobs coming here saying their Wammo builds are good will make a dent into the build.

None has isulted you, yet you can`t take a single critic without start to cry all over cause you haven`t become the jesuschrist of warrior builds... LOL.

BTW i use a Banner warrior, not a shout one, banners are far superior in terms of supporting mates and gives you a lot of freedom to do other things aswell. But i think you can`t understand it, the only thing you can do it seems to be 100B and volley, a good build in the hands of a natural born hurr durr 100B bandwagon user... Cause guys like you everyone says our class is the "brainless" class of the game.

supacc, on 08 October 2012 - 07:38 PM, said:

i still find the standard shout warrior build to be superior.

http://www.gw2db.com...|0|0|0|0|0|0|0|


3k+ hp heals with MASSIVE utility, all on a ~20 second cooldown.  from damage buffs, to cc removal, and even a huge enemy debuff (+10% damage for everyone attacking it?!), i don't see how any other build can compare.  with max adren, you are healing for massive amounts, while dealing massive damage (+12% damage along with +9% crit chance and +1.5% damage for every buff on you, meaning +3% at all times from perma FGJ).  and yes, you will learn to swap in some utility skills for when you need it (ie signet of stam/endure pain/battle standard), but for everything that isn't an instance (and even in instances), this build would mop everything up.

i also run a similar armor set up as well (knight's armor+berserker trinkets), but with rune of the soldier.

Far superior than this thread main build. Tactics gives you a lot of flexibility, in solo you go shout, in group you go banners, but i feel it lacks some toughtness, anyway, keeping distance will be important, and as you suggest using knight`s armor will do for the day... Now this is a good all-round build.

Edited by Alexander Dragonfang, 08 October 2012 - 07:48 PM.

[Millimidget]

Corteaz, on 07 October 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

Reading this- is it advisable to sacrifice the Knights jewellery and go for crit? Just when do you exactly 'feel' the diminishing effects of toughness, and when do you actually see it effective?

I've heard this mentioned before.

I know that in other games, while the tooltip value appears to undergo some sort of diminishing returns, you're still statistically getting just as much effectiveness for each additional unit of mitigation.

Is it the same here? Or did they really implement some sort of antiquated DR system which manifests as a decisive breakpoint beyond which stacking more toughness is useless?

[Red_Falcon]

Millimidget, on 08 October 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

I've heard this mentioned before.

I know that in other games, while the tooltip value appears to undergo some sort of diminishing returns, you're still statistically getting just as much effectiveness for each additional unit of mitigation.

Is it the same here? Or did they really implement some sort of antiquated DR system which manifests as a decisive breakpoint beyond which stacking more toughness is useless?

I tested this.

I changed my jewels to crit ones, got 36% more crit dmg and survivability seems roughly the same (even in WvW).
At this point I believe jewels are better used to stack crit dmg than anything.
Other sets (armor, wep, runes) give from 9% to 16% crit dmg, nothing comparable to a 36% bump.

[KrayZ33]

Why would I go banners in group btw?

just curious,

regeneration seem inferior to direct heals imho, especially since there are so many sources of regeneration out there and they don't stack (only in duration)

and isn't it a total pain in the ass to carry your banner around? always makes me think I'd slow down the group

or is it because you get the freedom to choose other runes than soldiers, because going shout without them seems to be so much of a waste

Edited by KrayZ33, 08 October 2012 - 09:47 PM.

[Red_Falcon]

KrayZ33, on 08 October 2012 - 09:46 PM, said:

Why would I go banners in group btw?

just curious,

regeneration seem inferior to direct heals imho, especially since there are so many sources of regeneration out there and they don't stack (only in duration)

and isn't it a total pain in the ass to carry your banner around? always makes me think I'd slow down the group

or is it because you get the freedom to choose other runes than soldiers, because going shout without them seems to be so much of a waste

Banner regen is pretty weak, IIRC it's 130hp +(0.0625*healing power) per second, less HP/s than healing shout Wammo.

You only use Battle Standard in groups because it resurrects downed people in its circle instantly when used.
Call it a mass-ress, team saver.
If no other Warrior is in the team then go for it.

[Millimidget]

Red_Falcon, on 08 October 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

I tested this.

Sorry, but that doesn't really address my question. Even without DR, there's a point where stacking more mitigation will not be especially noticeable against most common sources of damage (ie in PvP). But not noticing the extra damage reduction is not the same as not receiving it, particularly when accounting for sustained (HoT) healing (which has always been what sold me on a toughness+no vitality build).

I appreciate that you've found a toughness threshold beyond which you can focus on other stats, in particular that you've found an effective non-toughness trinket setup, but I'm still wondering about this alleged DR on toughness.

[Red_Falcon]

Millimidget, on 08 October 2012 - 11:11 PM, said:

Sorry, but that doesn't really address my question. Even without DR, there's a point where stacking more mitigation will not be especially noticeable against most common sources of damage (ie in PvP). But not noticing the extra damage reduction is not the same as not receiving it, particularly when accounting for sustained (HoT) healing (which has always been what sold me on a toughness+no vitality build).

I appreciate that you've found a toughness threshold beyond which you can focus on other stats, in particular that you've found an effective non-toughness trinket setup, but I'm still wondering about this alleged DR on toughness.

I'm going to test this later, collect data and report back. I'm too curious about this.
Btw I don't think it's a Toughness thresold but rather an Armor thresold.
Toughness is merely a factor that along with Defense results in Armor, so it's more efficient to test the Armor stat in order to see what's the damare reduction given by different amounts and compare results.

[Millimidget]

Red_Falcon, on 08 October 2012 - 11:15 PM, said:

I'm going to test this later, collect data and report back. I'm too curious about this.
Btw I don't think it's a Toughness thresold but rather an Armor thresold.

Fair enough.

I can't imagine it being drastically different from other games, though, so I'm assuming a relatively flat curve. It would be nice if the armor tooltip actually included a %mitigation value, and we could readily see if it works like other games or if they did something tricky.

Just to make sure you're aware of this before you start testing, take an example of a squishy with 10% mitigation and a tank with 60% mitigation. Regardless of their current toughness/armor values, adding another X amount of armor to the squishy brings his mitigation to 19%, while adding the same X amount of armor to the tank brings his mitigation to 64%. Most noobs look at that and scream diminishing returns, but they're both getting the same value out of X additional armor (ie an extra 10% damage reduction).

[Red_Falcon]

Millimidget, on 08 October 2012 - 11:30 PM, said:

Fair enough.

I can't imagine it being drastically different from other games, though, so I'm assuming a relatively flat curve. It would be nice if the armor tooltip actually included a %mitigation value, and we could readily see if it works like other games or if they did something tricky.

Just to make sure you're aware of this before you start testing, take an example of a squishy with 10% mitigation and a tank with 60% mitigation. Regardless of their current toughness/armor values, adding another X amount of armor to the squishy brings his mitigation to 19%, while adding the same X amount of armor to the tank brings his mitigation to 64%. Most noobs look at that and scream diminishing returns, but they're both getting the same value out of X additional armor (ie an extra 10% damage reduction).

I took screenshot of the average damage with different armor values (took quite a few hits lol).

Armor to Damage reduction:
2460 -> 3000 = 33% damage reduction.
2460 -> 2700 = 20% damage reduction.
2700 -> 3000 = 10% damage reduction.

Results show this:
Between 2460 armor and 3000 there is a 33% damage reduction gap.
Getting 240 armor when your armor is 2460 gives 20% damage reduction, but if you get another 300 armor you only get 10% damage reduction.

Less than half the benefits, and honestly 10% isn't a lot.
Therefore I believe one should stop at 2700-2800 armor.
The benefits of getting from 2700 to 3000 are negligible when compared to 36% crit damage.

I would love if anyone with 3200, 3400 and 3500 armor would fight this Risen Corruptor and see what results they get.
I doubt it will get much lower though, the diminishing returns hit pretty hard beyond the 2700 mark, I guess they will hit even harder.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 09 October 2012 - 12:15 AM.

[Millimidget]

Red_Falcon, on 09 October 2012 - 12:12 AM, said:

I would love if anyone with 3200, 3400 and 3500 armor would fight this Risen Corruptor and see what results they get.
I doubt it will get much lower though, the diminishing returns hit pretty hard beyond the 2700 mark, I guess they will hit even harder.

I'm around 3300 with a shield on; I might be able to hit some of the higher numbers just by swapping out some gear, and definitely can by changing traits. Also, I don't think my explanation earlier was clear enough.

EDIT: I ran short tests at 3302 and 3402; averages were ~460 and ~445 respectively, but I think the 3302 test is a little low. I'm satisfied enough to say that there probably is no diminishing return, unless it kicks in higher than 3402. As it is, I already regenerate faster than these guys can deal damage.

Edited by Millimidget, 09 October 2012 - 02:11 AM.

[Red_Falcon]

So it's like this:
2460 -> 2700 = 20% damage reduction.
2700 -> 3000 = 10% damage reduction.
3000 -> 3300 = 10% damage reduction.
3300 -> 3500 = 7% damage reduction.

Basically, on a Warrior you get to 3.2k armor with Knight armor and then you have to decide between 10% dmg reduction and 36% crit damage.
I think I'll be sitting safely on 3.2k and then concentrate on damage.

[KrayZ33]

isn't that math-experiment here kinda lacking?

so many unknowns..

its like saying the jump from 98% dmg reduction to 99% dmg reduction isn't a huge step, but in the end it'll increase your survivability by 50%

example: I've got 100hp, the enemy deals 100 DPS  (no heals or regeneration)

0% reduction - I'll live for 1 second

50% reduction - I'll live for 2 seconds

75% reduction - I'll live for 4 seconds

98% reduction - I'll live for 50 seconds

99% reduction - I'll live for 100 seconds

[randomfail]

would this build work if you reversed the gear?  Berserker armor with Knights jewlry/pack?

[Red_Falcon]

KrayZ33, on 09 October 2012 - 04:59 PM, said:

isn't that math-experiment here kinda lacking?

so many unknowns..

its like saying the jump from 98% dmg reduction to 99% dmg reduction isn't a huge step, but in the end it'll increase your survivability by 50%

example: I've got 100hp, the enemy deals 100 DPS  (no heals or regeneration)

0% reduction - I'll live for 1 second

50% reduction - I'll live for 2 seconds

75% reduction - I'll live for 4 seconds

98% reduction - I'll live for 50 seconds

99% reduction - I'll live for 100 seconds

It doesn't work that way.

randomfail, on 09 October 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

would this build work if you reversed the gear?  Berserker armor with Knights jewlry/pack?

Assuming you also get zerk weapon, yes.

[KrayZ33]

Quote

It doesn't work that way.

interesting, how does it work then?

if there isn't some kind of diminishing return to compensate for the gain of additional %s reduction (each % reduction is more powerfull than the last one) then toughness would be, no doubt, overpowered.

and if we assume that it isn't working much different from other RPGs then yes, it does work that way


what you just did is that you looked at the relative DPS reduction by adding x armor/thoughness

the formula that really matters however should be this

Effective tme to live = 1 /  (1 - Damagereduction%) * base time to live

so in the end, while each additional 100 armor/thoughness will decrease the attackers DPS less and less (just as shown in your screens) the effective time to live will increase by the same amount over and over again,
e.g. (random numbers) 10 toughness will *always* give you 1 extra second to live

Edited by KrayZ33, 09 October 2012 - 07:39 PM.

[rentauri]

Interesting build, one of the primary things I like about this build is the fact that it does play nicely with so many weapons. Now when you run dungeons do you carry all your sets or some of them?

[qbar24]

Just a thought: How do you feel about dropping 10 in Discipline and going 20 into Tactics? You'd have access to 20% shout cd reduction (personally I've swapped signet of stamina for Shake it Off, that's 2 shouts) and more importantly, you could choose Quick Breathing and have access to condition removals which buff you at the same time, not to mention 15 sec cooldowns of warhorn skills... This means 66% uptime of quickness and vigor for the whole group. You need to sacrifice a fair bit of defense though (shield's block and a stun), but you can always swap between the shield and the warhorn and use the latter in a condition heavy environment.

20 points in Discipline can also boost your Longbow damage - 10% more against burning foes. Not a game-breaking trait, but definitely cool when using a Longbow.

You'd lose 10% Critical Damage tho, while gaining 100 vit.