58 replies to this topic

[ogrejd]

Meh. The gold sinks should definitely be removed - they poison features that were considered awesome in GW1*, hurt the economy in the short term, and will have no positive effect in the long term.  Combine them with how hard it is to actually generate gold in the first place and they become punitive, especially early on.

If gold sinks are needed, give people optional stuff to buy**, don't punish them for using features that are absolutely necessary to play the game.

* (Free fast travel so you're not punished for wanting to play with your friends, guildmates, or party members.  Free respeccing in safe areas.  Death penalty to stats that you could work off by defeating monsters which worked far better than than armor damage that drains your wallet to encourage people to not just throw themselves at bosses that kill them over and over and over and over.  And so on...)

** (City of Heroes-style Auras that last for, say, 4 hours of in-game time, for example, would have people lining up to get them, even though it would mean most would have to re-buy it every day they play)

Edited by ogrejd, 02 October 2012 - 12:51 PM.

[Al Shamari]

ogrejd, on 02 October 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

Meh. The gold sinks should definitely be removed - they poison features that were considered awesome in GW1*, hurt the economy in the short term, and will have no positive effect in the long term.  Combine them with how hard it is to actually generate gold in the first place and they become punitive, especially early on.

If gold sinks are needed, give people optional stuff to buy**, don't punish them for using features that are absolutely necessary to play the game.

* (Free fast travel so you're not punished for wanting to play with your friends, guildmates, or party members.  Free respeccing in safe areas.  Death penalty to stats that you could work off by defeating monsters which worked far better than than armor damage that drains your wallet to encourage people to not just throw themselves at bosses that kill them over and over and over and over.  And so on...)

** (City of Heroes-style Auras that last for, say, 4 hours of in-game time, for example, would have people lining up to get them, even though it would mean most would have to re-buy it every day they play)

I'm sorry... but no positive effect in the long term? You're joking right? Do you understand what happened to the economy in Guild Wars? it was fine for awhile, but especially after the releases of Factions and Nightfall, it tanked. Things became extremely deflated because there were no viable gold sinks and over-farming was something anyone and everyone could do.

I may not agree with the degree of the gold sinks in Guild Wars 2, or all of them to the degree they're put into place. But, to say that they provide no long term security to what was once a failed market system, I can't even...

[Requiem For Dawn]

AlShamari, on 02 October 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

Oh don't even start with that... WvW is a zergfest regardless of being "skilled" or not. Players can still die frequently due to getting caught up in something, so don't give me that... the WvW system is flawed, end of story.

I don't think the system is flawed, I usually make more money in WvW than what I spend on repairs.
You just need to know how to pick your battles, if you are defending a tower with 2-3 more people against 20+ invaders and you don't see any backup on the way, you freaking bail when the gate is left with 10%
When you are outnumbered in an open world fight and you don't have supporting NPC (camps for example), you switch to your running gear and spread. Then you regroup and recapture the objective

Think of a real world battle, you won't rush into a 5vs10 situation unless you know you have some adventage

But enough about dying, just run the numbers: at level 80, 1 death is about 2.5s repair bill. capturing a tower is almost 4s, capturing a camp is almost 2s, killing a dolyak or a sentry is almost 1s etc etc...

The only thing I hate about WvW is sometimes you won't get the event reward because you've ran after running invaders and went too far from the event location

(also JP campers, they simply suck...)

[Al Shamari]

Quote

The only thing I hate about WvW is sometimes you won't get the event reward because you've ran after running invaders and went too far from the event location

Hate, hate, hate this...

[aurora2]

I'm up for any kind of gambling Anet might put into the game I love it

Scratchcards and lottery would be fun Oh and maybe on the scratchcards you could also have a chance to win items... not just gold.. that would make it even better :_)

Edited by aurora2, 02 October 2012 - 01:06 PM.

[Red Sonya]

AlShamari, on 02 October 2012 - 12:34 PM, said:

Oh don't even start with that... WvW is a zergfest regardless of being "skilled" or not. Players can still die frequently due to getting caught up in something, so don't give me that... the WvW system is flawed, end of story.

Baddies would say something like this ^    

[Al Shamari]

Red Sonya, on 02 October 2012 - 01:30 PM, said:

Baddies would say something like this ^

I don't even play WvW, so your point is really invalid...

[Red Sonya]

AlShamari, on 02 October 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

I don't even play WvW, so your point is really invalid...

Since you CLAIM you don't even play WvW then how can you KNOW 100% what WvW is like? So now you obviously don't know what you are talking about since you haven't experienced it yet. Oh and don't give me because other players have said so. If they told you the sky was falling would you believe them without checking it out for yourself? lol

[Al Shamari]

Red Sonya, on 02 October 2012 - 01:37 PM, said:

Since you CLAIM you don't even play WvW then how can you KNOW 100% what WvW is like? So now you obviously don't know what you are talking about since you haven't experienced it yet. Oh and don't give me because other players have said so. If they told you the sky was falling would you believe them without checking it out for yourself? lol

I've played WvW twice, I understand the concept behind it and I know how to play. While playing, I did die several times... but nothing extraordinary to be honest, I considered myself decent. Anyways, I don't play at the moment because to be honest, I'm only level 20... and the scaling for WvW is flawed - so I'm at an extreme disadvantage due to lack of trail rolls. I find it a better use of my time to play PvE at the moment, that is all. But, as said... I understand the concept, I can see the flaws.

[mastermage264]

I'm really surprised at this thread, I mean I knew some people would think this way but so many? Anet has an Economist on staff that helps design these systems, and for good reason. They have a gold to gem conversion, they have to keep a very close eye on how much gold is out there.

In every instance I've made more money than lost (TP, waypoint, WvW, Dungeon, ect). If you are loosing money to deaths play more defensivly, work on improving your game. If you are loosing money on TP or waypoint, just stop using them. TP is meant for you to make money, and waypoints are optional. If you aren't killing enough things after a waypoint to make your money back before your next jump just don't use them.

These systems are in place for a reason, they aren't intrusive, and do a good job at it. Oh, and before I forget, the respec cost is super low at 80 compared to any other mmo I've seen it in. Sorry you aren't swimming in gold.

[Red Sonya]

mastermage264, on 02 October 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

I'm really surprised at this thread, I mean I knew some people would think this way but so many? Anet has an Economist on staff that helps design these systems, and for good reason. They have a gold to gem conversion, they have to keep a very close eye on how much gold is out there.

In every instance I've made more money than lost (TP, waypoint, WvW, Dungeon, ect). If you are loosing money to deaths play more defensivly, work on improving your game. If you are loosing money on TP or waypoint, just stop using them. TP is meant for you to make money, and waypoints are optional. If you aren't killing enough things after a waypoint to make your money back before your next jump just don't use them.

These systems are in place for a reason, they aren't intrusive, and do a good job at it. Oh, and before I forget, the respec cost is super low at 80 compared to any other mmo I've seen it in. Sorry you aren't swimming in gold.

I think many of these complainers came from GW1 where they gave everything to you on a candy stick. They are used to FREE and EASY. Why I remember you used to have to PAY and/or wait a certain amount of time for your attribute changes in GW1 and they whined and cried about that so much they finally made that FREE. Traveling was always FREE and I never liked that and they got RAN to everywhere in the game to get high level equipment and skills and I never liked that either. At least in GW2 you have to be a certain LEVEL and have a certain amount of skill points before you can get that equipment and ELITE skills.....thank goodness for that. Plus no more lvl 55 MONKS or INVULNERABLE cheating SINS.

[Ritualist]

AlShamari, on 02 October 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

I'm sorry... but no positive effect in the long term? You're joking right? Do you understand what happened to the economy in Guild Wars? it was fine for awhile, but especially after the releases of Factions and Nightfall, it tanked. Things became extremely deflated because there were no viable gold sinks and over-farming was something anyone and everyone could do.

I may not agree with the degree of the gold sinks in Guild Wars 2, or all of them to the degree they're put into place. But, to say that they provide no long term security to what was once a failed market system, I can't even...

The difference was HOW the economy exploded. Armour prices, ID kits, ... heck, even some of the market-items such as runes we always cheap. The only thing that exploded were vanity items - but those, by definition, should be limited so it doesn't matter if only the 5 richest folks in the game can afford them.
GW2's problem is that the gold sinks prevent people from obtaining the mandatory items - people should never have to even think twice before getting an exotic piece of gear or travel around or pay for repairs. But that's exactly what's happening.
So please, explain why this situation is SO much better for the average player?

[Tallenn]

I have to admit, I'm a little disappointed in the way the economy works in GW2.

I have never been rich in any MMORPG, but I do typically manage to get a comfortable enough amount of money that I never have to worry about every day normal expenditures.

I get the idea behind all the gold sinks, I really do. It's just that it's not really working, and in fact, it can NEVER work how they want it to. There will always be people that figure out how to get around whatever you put in their way, who become vastly richer than the typical resident in your little virtual world. I guarantee you there are lots of people out there with literally thousands of gold. All of the gold sinks have NOT affected them in any way. It's just us typical people that sigh and deal with multiple loading screens to save a couple of silver.

[Vysander]

AlShamari, on 02 October 2012 - 01:45 PM, said:

I've played WvW twice, I understand the concept behind it and I know how to play. While playing, I did die several times... but nothing extraordinary to be honest, I considered myself decent. Anyways, I don't play at the moment because to be honest, I'm only level 20... and the scaling for WvW is flawed - so I'm at an extreme disadvantage due to lack of trail rolls. I find it a better use of my time to play PvE at the moment, that is all. But, as said... I understand the concept, I can see the flaws.

Now THAT is some funny stuff right there.

At your level, with no guild, yes, the zerg is the easiest PUG to join up with and feel like your doing something. The zerg is by no means how to win in WvWvW. The zerg is how you corral otherwise useless players into a distraction, while organized groups of people do useful things.

But, on topic, i dont really see the gold sinks as being that big an issues... very easy to make alot of money on top of the gold sinks....

[Al Shamari]

Vysander, on 02 October 2012 - 03:30 PM, said:

Now THAT is some funny stuff right there.

At your level, with no guild, yes, the zerg is the easiest PUG to join up with and feel like your doing something. The zerg is by no means how to win in WvWvW. The zerg is how you corral otherwise useless players into a distraction, while organized groups of people do useful things.

But, on topic, i dont really see the gold sinks as being that big an issues... very easy to make alot of money on top of the gold sinks....

I never said zergs were the right way to do things, simply that they happen whether you like it or not. Just as mobs did in alliance battles, even though it was not the way to go about effectively capping the map. Zergs happen in WvW, quite frequently from what I see... and they are part of the 'meta' tactics.

Protoss, on 02 October 2012 - 02:31 PM, said:

The difference was HOW the economy exploded. Armour prices, ID kits, ... heck, even some of the market-items such as runes we always cheap. The only thing that exploded were vanity items - but those, by definition, should be limited so it doesn't matter if only the 5 richest folks in the game can afford them.
GW2's problem is that the gold sinks prevent people from obtaining the mandatory items - people should never have to even think twice before getting an exotic piece of gear or travel around or pay for repairs. But that's exactly what's happening.
So please, explain why this situation is SO much better for the average player?

Yes, and vanity items deflated... that was the issue in Guild Wars, deflation of the value of goods because there were no gold sinks, no restrictions on farming for the most part, etc. Things that were once vanity items became pretty common and the prices plummeted... they became 'useless' in a sense due to the fact that they were no longer prestigious. Then a new expansion would come out and new vanity items would take over until they were over-farmed. A prime example... Fellblades, early on in the game they were a grade A+ vanity item, then deflated into nothing... absolutely nothing.

Edited by AlShamari, 02 October 2012 - 03:42 PM.

[Red Sonya]

Quote

So please, explain why this situation is SO much better for the average player?

That's easy: You have a REASON to PLAY LONGER just like the good old days MMO's. Remember Everquest?

[Arioch]

I think the only gold sink that's truly bothersome is the waypoint sink.

People farming are either going to stay to high level zones (in which case they're not travelling very much anyway) or going to events that will make much more then it'll cost (like world bosses).

So it'll drain a lot from people who want to travel for non-farming purposes, people playing with friends or people who just like exploring. Costs should be lowered and should also be scaled by the level of the zone. This would make it fairer. Let them put a few extra percent on trading, that's where the money is made anyway. But everyone will enjoy travelling more if WP are free or almost free.

Edited by Arioch, 02 October 2012 - 03:50 PM.

[Lastchime]

They should scale back the WvW tower/keep events to pay a repair canister as well. I mean you don't want too many cause that'd just encourage corpse bombing, but something should be done especialy when your side is down, it makes a bad night really awful when you get the bill.

[Pysgasm]

I would effing kill for a Gw2 casino... something like the ff7 golden saucer... would be effin epic and a great social hub.

[Ritualist]

AlShamari, on 02 October 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

Yes, and vanity items deflated... that was the issue in Guild Wars, deflation of the value of goods because there were no gold sinks, no restrictions on farming for the most part, etc. Things that were once vanity items became pretty common and the prices plummeted... they became 'useless' in a sense due to the fact that they were no longer prestigious. Then a new expansion would come out and new vanity items would take over until they were over-farmed. A prime example... Fellblades, early on in the game they were a grade A+ vanity item, then deflated into nothing... absolutely nothing.

People who had them first could brag with them first.
People who got them after a few months, got them when nobody cared about them any more.

The problem is ...?


It's a Guild Wars game. You play, you quit.Does it really matter that you have it all when nobody is around to give a shit about it?

[Malice]

AlShamari, on 02 October 2012 - 03:39 PM, said:

Yes, and vanity items deflated... that was the issue in Guild Wars, deflation of the value of goods because there were no gold sinks, no restrictions on farming for the most part, etc. Things that were once vanity items became pretty common and the prices plummeted... they became 'useless' in a sense due to the fact that they were no longer prestigious. Then a new expansion would come out and new vanity items would take over until they were over-farmed. A prime example... Fellblades, early on in the game they were a grade A+ vanity item, then deflated into nothing... absolutely nothing.

Inscriptions killed the main money sink in GW.

[Al Shamari]

Protoss, on 02 October 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

People who had them first could brag with them first.
People who got them after a few months, got them when nobody cared about them any more.

The problem is ...?


It's a Guild Wars game. You play, you quit.Does it really matter that you have it all when nobody is around to give a shit about it?

Because... prestigious weapons weren't the only thing that deflated... look at ectoplasm. As ectoplasm fell, so did almost everything. It became extraordinarily easy to achieve things that were once prestigious, such as high end armors, etc.

Malice, on 02 October 2012 - 08:52 PM, said:

Inscriptions killed the main money sink in GW.

Explain? I'm actually not sure what you mean, but this could be very true. Are toy saying that valuable rare weapons, with good attached stats were the money sink, and that the addition of inscriptions which provided a rather easy (and cheap) way to attach statistics to weapons with good skins ruined that? If so, I can agree with that completely.

[ogrejd]

AlShamari, on 02 October 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

Because... prestigious weapons weren't the only thing that deflated... look at ectoplasm. As ectoplasm fell, so did almost everything. It became extraordinarily easy to achieve things that were once prestigious, such as high end armors, etc.

Might be "easy" to get Globs of Ectoplasm these days, but they're only officially used for two things: Chaos Gloves and Obsidian Armor.  It's gotta be 2 years since I last noticed anyone with the former, and Obsidian armor has been something you saw maybe once or twice a week, depending on how much you played.  Few people actually used them for anything other than as an alternate currency and so their value declined (currently 6p500g at the RMT - compared to 11p for Rubies & 13p for Sapphire, used for the far more popular Vabbi armor).

And things people would buy with Ectos didn't start going down until people started getting focused on filling the HOM up as cheaply as possible in preparation for GW2 so, like with ectos themselves, demand for the higher end stuff fell off, lowering prices that had been artificially inflated by the switch to an unofficial currency.  Lack of a gold sink had nothing to do with it.

In fact, a gold sink would've just made things worse by increasing how much income you need to generate to afford the necessities of virtual life before you can start saving for the high end stuff (which would fall a bit more, actually, to try and get back some of the players who gave up on it and said "screw it, I'll never be able to afford it")

[Al Shamari]

ogrejd, on 02 October 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

Might be "easy" to get Globs of Ectoplasm these days, but they're only officially used for two things: Chaos Gloves and Obsidian Armor.  It's gotta be 2 years since I last noticed anyone with the former, and Obsidian armor has been something you saw maybe once or twice a week, depending on how much you played.  Few people actually used them for anything other than as an alternate currency and so their value declined (currently 6p500g at the RMT - compared to 11p for Rubies & 13p for Sapphire, used for the far more popular Vabbi armor).

And things people would buy with Ectos didn't start going down until people started getting focused on filling the HOM up as cheaply as possible in preparation for GW2 so, like with ectos themselves, demand for the higher end stuff fell off, lowering prices that had been artificially inflated by the switch to an unofficial currency.  Lack of a gold sink had nothing to do with it.

In fact, a gold sink would've just made things worse by increasing how much income you need to generate to afford the necessities of virtual life before you can start saving for the high end stuff (which would fall a bit more, actually, to try and get back some of the players who gave up on it and said "screw it, I'll never be able to afford it")

I actually can't argue with a lot of this, very valid points. Thanks.

[Dreamrunner]

mastermage264, on 02 October 2012 - 01:50 PM, said:

...If you are loosing money to deaths play more defensivly, work on improving your game. If you are loosing money on TP or waypoint, just stop using them. TP is meant for you to make money, and waypoints are optional. If you aren't killing enough things after a waypoint to make your money back before your next jump just don't use them....

This is laughable. No, the TP and waypoints are game features. But you're saying people shouldn't use these game features because it gives them economic burden? These things should be used, but the economic burden is carried with it is bad, simple because it has no evidence of helping the economy to begin with. It also makes no sense to burden players for things they have no control over. For instance, what about when I die because of lag? Or bugs? Or things happening in my real life that need my attention?

Edited by Dreamrunner, 03 October 2012 - 12:10 PM.

[UnDeadFun]

Dreamrunner, on 03 October 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

This is laughable. No, the TP and waypoints are game features. But you're saying people shouldn't use these game features because it gives them economic burden? These things should be used, but the economic burden is carried with it is bad, simple because it has no evidence of helping the economy to begin with. It also makes no sense to burden players for things they have no control over. For instance, what about when I die because of lag? Or bugs? Or things happening in my real life that need my attention?

I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say.  TP and way points are meant to be used, however if you are losing money, stop using them( meaning stop and educate yourself when & how to use them). One of the biggest issues I see with the TP , are the hundreds of players dropping items on the lowest bid without looking at the npc value and comparing it against the listing fee and tax. People are posting items for sale and losing money just with listing fee alone, not even including the tax.

[Dreamrunner]

UnDeadFun, on 03 October 2012 - 12:28 PM, said:

I think you misunderstood what he was trying to say.  TP and way points are meant to be used, however if you are losing money, stop using them( meaning stop and educate yourself when & how to use them). One of the biggest issues I see with the TP , are the hundreds of players dropping items on the lowest bid without looking at the npc value and comparing it against the listing fee and tax. People are posting items for sale and losing money just with listing fee alone, not even including the tax.

No. I perfectly understood what he was saying.  This doesn't change the fact, waypoints are economic burdens which don't need to be active. If they do, please provide evidence of them showing a positive relationship with the playerbase.  Also, everyone is losing money on waypoints, the degree is just stronger or lesser depending on the players level and length of travel. However, saying "stop and learn how to use them properly" doesn't change, waypoints to be needed in the game.

[Vysander]

Dreamrunner, on 04 October 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

No. I perfectly understood what he was saying.  This doesn't change the fact, waypoints are economic burdens which don't need to be active. If they do, please provide evidence of them showing a positive relationship with the playerbase.  Also, everyone is losing money on waypoints, the degree is just stronger or lesser depending on the players level and length of travel. However, saying "stop and learn how to use them properly" doesn't change, waypoints to be needed in the game.

Economic burden..... really? Positive relationship...... what?  Its called not having to run from Orr to Frostgorge sounds.... id say thats a pretty positive relationship...

I dont understand how people are netting a loss on waypoints.... at most its 4.5s for a port, and thats from the two farthest extremes (northern frostgorge to southern cursed shore).
You can make the money to use a waypoint in killing what 2-3 mobs?

Or if your doing it for say collecting, you can make that back in a few gatherings.... and if your'e doing ori then its ONE ori to cover the cost of using the waypoint in most cases.....

Basically you should never go to a zone and net a loss from using the waypoints, unless your literally going there to say, buy something from a karma merchant... or.... i dunno... running around doing nothing for five minutes then going back to sitting in lions arch?

Edited by Vysander, 04 October 2012 - 01:43 PM.

[mastermage264]

Dreamrunner, on 03 October 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

This is laughable. No, the TP and waypoints are game features. But you're saying people shouldn't use these game features because it gives them economic burden? These things should be used, but the economic burden is carried with it is bad, simple because it has no evidence of helping the economy to begin with. It also makes no sense to burden players for things they have no control over. For instance, what about when I die because of lag? Or bugs? Or things happening in my real life that need my attention?

Really? Because of work and life I have no control over how much time I can dedicate to this game. I should get gold/xp/tokens/karma/ect for the amount of time I don't log in between sessions? Why burden me with things I don't have control over?  I'm sorry but that whole path of logic makes no sense.

And yes, don't use 'game features' that aren't netting you profit. That's kind of the point. Waypoints are there to make travel over large distances faster. A large portion of this game is exploration. One of the main reasons for making them cost coin is to make sure you aren't using them every 5 seconds. Walk around a bit, the cost is easily offset by killing a few things, doing a DE/heart, or gathering some resources. If you are loosing money on it use it less. It's an expense, just like a car in real life. The goal is to limit use, they could have just made it so you only have so many uses per day, but instead they base it off your currency and leave you to decide when the cost is prohibiting you. Both limit the use, one also provides a gold sink to help the economy. I think they made a good choice.

"No evidence of helping the economy to begin with." are you nuts? Every single MMO I have ever played, and I've played my fair share, have a gold sink system in place. Without a system like that in place inflation runs rampant and wealth gaps become really large. The goal is to limit how much gold is in the economy at any given time. Without a sink you have no control over it, and eventually everything costs so much any new/casual players are screwed. Instead of having a strait up increase like that, a sink helps to keep it closer to level. They will be tweaking costs as the game goes on, in an attempt to keep prices that way. Take a look at the gem/gold conversions since launch, they have been pretty steady. That's your measure, if that starts rising/falling steadily that's their queue to tweak things. Gold sinks let them control the amount of gold in the world, and thereby help control the economy. Every country does the same thing with loan rates. Lower them to get more money in the system, raise them to stem that cash flow. You don't hire someone on staff just to handle these things if there is 'no evidence'.