53 replies to this topic

[Red J]

So, does anyone knows from where this guy is? Or rather, who is he? In one of his dialogues upon meeting him for the first time, when your character asks him where he is from, he gets strangely confused.

Spoiler

Doern Velazquez: What can I do for our newest agent?
Excuse me, but who are you?
Doern Velazquez: My name is Doern Velazquez. I'm one of the preceptors of the Order of Whispers.
Are you from Kryta?
Doern Velazquez: Kryta? No, no...I mean, yes! Of course. The human nation, right? Kryta. Yes.
That sounds mighty suspicious. Cantha? You don't look Elonian...
Doern Velazquez: That information is classified. Maybe we'll talk more about it one day.

Unfortunetely, I never have had an opportunity to learn more about him. We know the Order is able to cross Tyrian borders, and is possibly in contact with other human cultures so he might be from outside the Tyria. Or, based on the way he answered the question, the fact he says "the human nation" makes me think he may not actually be human at all.

What do you think?

[Rukioish]

he's.... a robot? I'm not sure, all I know is he has such a sexy voice.

It "seems" he's probably from another nation... But who knows. . . he could be something in disguise.

[Konig Des Todes]

From his response, it's fairly clear he's not Krytan - and that he's not often asked where he's from. Though his name is more Krytan than any other known nation (GW1 Krytans had a mixture of various southern European names, mostly focused in the romantic languages - such as Spanish which his name is most familiar with), so it's probably a fake name. His model doesn't really look Ascalonian or Elonian, so Canthan's the best bet.

Or he can be from another land entirely - after all, the three continents really only make up about 1/16th of the world.

I don't agree with his use of "the human nation" indicating he's not human. Rather, that indicates he's not Tyria. How I read it, there is an implied "of Tyria" (continental Tyria, of course), indicating he's just not from this continent. Which is pretty likely, given that the Order of Whispers is the only known organization to have contact with others outside of continental Tyria (as they can move to and from Elona somehow).

Sadly, I never saw an elaboration on this.

[ensoriki]

It seemed implied that he was from modern Cantha and is probably one of if not the only sources they have for what has occured in Cantha, which would make sense why he's with the Whisperers.

Edited by ensoriki, 03 October 2012 - 11:35 PM.

[Red J]

He doesn't look Canthan though. Not even Kurzick or Luxon. My first impression was he is from somewhere outside the Tyria- perhaps some yet unknown continent with human population.

From another dialogue, we know he was field agent along with his wife, until she was killed. But that's about all we know about him. I was hoping we would find more at the end of the personal story, as implied in the conversation, but there was nothing.

Edited by Red J, 04 October 2012 - 08:55 AM.

[BuddhaKeks]

He really reminds me of Vael. I could see Doern being an ancestor of our mysterious friend from GW1.

[The Greyhawk]

Red J, on 04 October 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

He doesn't look Canthan though. Not even Kurzick or Luxon. My first impression was he is from somewhere outside the Tyria- perhaps some yet unknown continent with human population.

From another dialogue, we know he was field agent along with his wife, until she was killed. But that's about all we know about him. I was hoping we would find more at the end of the personal story, as implied in the conversation, but there was nothing.

To be fair, there are a few other minor NPCs that I've run into that have stated that they ARE Canthan, but don't quite look it either.

That said, he could very well be of a mixed heritage.

[nilzardo]

He could also have been born in the wild somewhere like Adain, or maybe he was raised by grawl or charr or wolves or quaggans or norn, who knows? He might be such a world citizen that he doesn't identify as Krytan anymore, with the whole international multiracial order thing and all. Perhaps he is actually Lazarus the Dire in disguise? >: |

[Konig Des Todes]

@Greyhawk: Those are of Canthan descent, rather than being born in Cantha like Doern may be.

@nilzardo: I don't think it'd be classified if it was merely "born in the wild" - it being classified means one of two things:
1) It's detrimental information
2) it's a spoiler/such an odd thing in the world that it grabs too much attention when known.

[draxynnic]

In fact, considering that someone saying "it's classified" regarding their origin is itself going to draw attention, whatever his origin is would have to be something that draws more attention.

BuddhaKeks, on 04 October 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

He really reminds me of Vael. I could see Doern being an ancestor of our mysterious friend from GW1.

It's the family that goes back in time!

[BuddhaKeks]

draxynnic, on 04 October 2012 - 10:19 PM, said:

It's the family that goes back in time!

Took me a while to understand that I screwed up! xD A descendant of course.

*moonwalk of shame back to the dark corner*

[Cakemancer]

Konig Des Todes, on 03 October 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

the three continents really only make up about 1/16th of the world.

First time I've heard this number, where did you get that? Any info on the other parts of the world?

[Konig Des Todes]

Quite some time ago dat divers found a texture for a complete globe of Tyria. This globe can be found in the Chantry of Secrets. Tyria and Elona are pretty much dead center on the map. Note, however, that there are inconsistencies with this map and the world map - specifically northern Tyria (Janthir Bay and the Isles of Janthir are missing, as in Frostgorge Sound and its linked-to inland sea).

[Mark]

Personally I feel like he is toying with the PC a bit. He is after all one of the highest ranking OoW guys and he seems to misspeak quite a lot for that, misspeaking in an early conversation you can have with him along the lines of after the loss of my wi- uhm last mission partner, after which you get the option to ask him you were going to say wife, weren't you? He answers with that information is classified. I think a preceptor should know at least how to keep a secret, so, concluding, I heavily assume he's just toying with us.

[Wordsworth]

Mark, on 07 October 2012 - 08:55 AM, said:

Personally I feel like he is toying with the PC a bit. He is after all one of the highest ranking OoW guys and he seems to misspeak quite a lot for that, misspeaking in an early conversation you can have with him along the lines of after the loss of my wi- uhm last mission partner, after which you get the option to ask him you were going to say wife, weren't you? He answers with that information is classified. I think a preceptor should know at least how to keep a secret, so, concluding, I heavily assume he's just toying with us.

Pretty dark if he makes up a dead wife for the giggles.

[Konig Des Todes]

Considering that other members of the Whispers (think it was the sylvari proctor) mentions that he lost a wife who was his mission partner in the past, I don't think he's doing that on purpose - or he is, but he's not making it up.

[The Greyhawk]

Konig Des Todes, on 04 October 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

@Greyhawk: Those are of Canthan descent, rather than being born in Cantha like Doern may be.

@nilzardo: I don't think it'd be classified if it was merely "born in the wild" - it being classified means one of two things:
1) It's detrimental information
2) it's a spoiler/such an odd thing in the world that it grabs too much attention when known.

My point was that the current models ingame may not look as asian as we'd expect.

[Dainjah]

Is there any chance he could be from 'The Mists' similar to Razah? That could also explain how the OoW manage to travle between borders if there is some way to travel through etheral means? Its a long shot I know, but seeing how secretive the OoW are about everything and all the knowledge they have that, technically, they shouldn't, should they be discounted from having some kind of unknown travel means or link to beings other than ones we see ingame everyday. I may be miles off with this, but I thought can't hurt to throw the idea out there.

[Konig Des Todes]

I would assume the Order of Whispers conscripted asura and had asura gates made in Elona before Joko's return, and they just go to and fro the Tyrian Chantry of Secrets that way.

[Red J]

Not sure about asura gates in Elona. If there were any, Joko would get hold of them by know. It could be one of these old underground Asura gates, although there is no information about asura having gate network outside Tyria (except the first EotN quest instance, which was basically the same for every continent and hardly counts as proof.)

Then again, there was a part in EoD book talking about an old Asura gate showing random images from far-off places. Maybe the old asuran civilization did reach as far as Elona.

[Konig Des Todes]

The Order of Whispers would be able to keep secrets even from their enemy, wouldn't you think? That is, after all, the main thing about them.

[Xermaran]

I think it's a hint to the canceled GW1 Expansion Utopia which would have been based on an Aztec theme similar to how Tyria was Europe, Cantha -Asia, and Elona-Africa/Middle East.

That's why he says "the human nation".

http://wiki.guildwar...ild_Wars_Utopia

[draxynnic]

That seems to me to be a little too much of a parallel to the real world - ArenaNet's cultures are generally inspired by existing cultures rather than being direct ports of a particular historical situation, and having the mesoamerican culture having colonists nearby that have Spanish names - or even being Spanish themselves - would be a little too close to home. Elona was presented in GW1 as its own vibrant culture without being colonised by Tyrians (or any other European stand-in) - I would be very surprised if Utopia was to be any different.

[Valkaire]

While it would be interesting if they brought a little bit of Utopia into GW2, they already did in EotN. Asuras pretty much took over the Aztec theme that would have been introduced, the sidhe turned into the Sylvari, the taneks into destroyers, kraits were introduced, etc.

It's far more likely to me that another culture has developed in far off places that the order of whispers have been to, finding civilizations/cultures unknown to most Tyrian's that ARE human but don't think of themselves as human. I know, that's kind of odd but if you look back to the Sylvari personal story that includes Malyck he doesn't really think of himself as Sylvari. It could be that there's an entirely alien (as in different/not from Tyria, not a different species) offshoot of humanity that developed with another name for themselves. I believe he says human nation as a racial identifier (not like Charr vs Human but race as in human classification). The like that he doesn't see Tyrians as Elonians, Ascalonians, Krytans, etc. but as Humans vs his culture's ____________

Unless he is or has had a powerful mesmer cast a glamour over him to hide an appearance that would alert most of the inhabitants of tyria (kind of like in the personal story when trahearne introduces you to Sayeh al'Rajihd or w/e).

Edited by Valkaire, 30 October 2012 - 08:22 AM.

[draxynnic]

Actually, that is an interesting observation - if he was, say, a Forgotten (who had associations with the Order in Nightfall) under a glamour, that could well explain it.

[Vahkris]

Red J, on 03 October 2012 - 09:02 PM, said:

So, does anyone knows from where this guy is? Or rather, who is he? In one of his dialogues upon meeting him for the first time, when your character asks him where he is from, he gets strangely confused.

Spoiler

Doern Velazquez: What can I do for our newest agent?
Excuse me, but who are you?
Doern Velazquez: My name is Doern Velazquez. I'm one of the preceptors of the Order of Whispers.
Are you from Kryta?
Doern Velazquez: Kryta? No, no...I mean, yes! Of course. The human nation, right? Kryta. Yes.
That sounds mighty suspicious. Cantha? You don't look Elonian...
Doern Velazquez: That information is classified. Maybe we'll talk more about it one day.

Unfortunetely, I never have had an opportunity to learn more about him. We know the Order is able to cross Tyrian borders, and is possibly in contact with other human cultures so he might be from outside the Tyria. Or, based on the way he answered the question, the fact he says "the human nation" makes me think he may not actually be human at all.

What do you think?

The human nation?  As opposed to the Charr nation, the Sylvari nation, the Asura nation, and the Norn nation?  Your character's assumption in the dialogue response that he's from another continent makes perfect sense, as you wouldn't be as familiar on the nation names.  I'd go with the first idea, it assumes a lot less and is more likely with the info we have.

As someone said above, it could easily be a hint (or just a nod) to the cancelled Utopia area, and perhaps the writers are going with the idea that the intended lands and people are really there.

Edited by Vahkris, 31 October 2012 - 03:24 PM.

[Steadfast Gao Shun]

I somehow doubt that he'd be Forgotten for a couple of reasons. He'd have no real business here dabbling in human affairs. Their general duty was, until Nightfall, to guard Abaddon and the Realm of Torment. Furthermore, the Forgotten as a whole seemed to be a race based on seclusion - that was why they retreated to the Crystal Deserts in the first place, after humans became numerous.

Barring him being an extraordinarily adventurous Forgotten with a penchant for forgiveness (hey, Turai Ossa did try to rampage through the Desert with somewhat disastrous results, and somehow I don't see "easiness to forgive" as a very Forgotten trait) and someone being bad at disguises by intentionally making those slip, I personally favor the interpretation mentioned above - he's just a Whispers agent who's messing with your PC.

If anything, a Djinn would make more sense if we're going for the supernatural route. They'd be trustworthy enough (one of the Vabbian sidequests mention that Djinn do not break their vows unless their master does it first), and can assume humanoid shape (evident from MoW's friend, Deljah who helps you to sneak into a Kournan base in one of the missions) but would still be alien enough to human culture to make slips as such.

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 31 October 2012 - 05:24 PM.

[draxynnic]

Also a possibility...

That said, though, the impression I had of the Forgotten involvement in the Trials of Ascension is that they are reasonably quick to forgive. They serve to test those who seek Ascension - once you've passed the test, it's all good. Personally, I have a suspicion that the Forgotten in the Trials of Ascension had a system set up by which they never actually died (permanently) according to the actions of the players.

The big question is... are the Forgotten still hiding somewhere in Tyria, or have they now all moved into the Mists entirely? If they ARE still here, then even after all that's happened they're probably the ancient civilisation that has best survived to the present day, with the mursaat, dwarves and seers being almost extinct and the jotun having regressed. In that case, I'd expect them to want to keep tabs on what's happening with the fighting against the dragons - and what better way than to infiltrate (or join with the knowledge of the top echelons) one of the organisations doing the fighting that the Forgotten have a prior relationship with? Taking human form as the disguise would then be an insurance policy against letting slip a reference to the gods or the like - from a human that would be expected, from a nonhuman it might raise eyebrows.

That said, I don't think the evidence is particularly strong at the moment, but it does remain an interesting possibility.

[Steadfast Gao Shun]

Interesting suggestion. However, I think to suggest that the Forgotten are "quick to forgive" is taking an extremely human-centric view on things. Humans pushed them into the desert in the first place, and in a sense, they were here long before humans did. I think it's also reasonable to think that the events you see in Prophecies are exceptional, rather than the norm - your PC was a part of the Flameseeker Prophecies, and Glint was guiding events along, too, so I felt the fact that Glint took an interest in you was the primary reason in why they helped you out. Below is a portion of the skill point quest from one of the Forgotten NPCs you encounter.

Quote

Know then that we Forgotten were the first race to rule Tyria. During our reign, the world was at peace until your people came, until the humans came. We could not compete with the savage humans and were slowly driven into this desert where we met our future master, the great crystal dragon Glint. It is she who you must seek if you wish to Ascend.

I also wouldn't say that their civilization has survived. Their outposts and positions in the Mists are being overran thanks to Dhuum. Mallyx the Unyielding is making huge dents in their numbers, and I don't think (just my interpretation) that they're doing all that well. NPC dialogue everywhere (especially those from quests in the Realm of Torment) suggest that they're also a race in decline, and that whatever their interaction may be with Tyria, their time is also ending. The last major deed we know of is that the Forgotten aided Kormir in cleansing Abbadon's realm. Though whether that's due to a willingness to help humans or a willingness to see the end of their duties - which is also mentioned by those very same keepers, I think, is an interesting debate best saved for another time.

Unlike the Mursaat or the Seers, however, I think you make a great point in the Forgotten are probably one of the most likely to help out humans in the event of GW2. They've always been staunch supporters of the Five, after all, and they do see the containment of Abbadon's forces with a zeal that borderlines insanity - Yithils is a good example where he basically tells your PC that he'll fulfill his "sacred" duty so long as one of his people is still remaining alive.

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 01 November 2012 - 12:05 AM.

[draxynnic]

From the Prophecies Manuscripts, however, it's said that the Forgotten withdrew - they weren't fighting all the way, although they did draw a line in the sand (possibly literally) when the Margonites started encroaching on their homes in the Crystal Sea. Now, we know that there are inaccuracies in the Manuscripts, but it fits with their character - they allied with the Five Gods (now Six) and their presence in other lands may have been simply as caretakers, not as inhabitants - apart from the Crystal Sea and possibly other homes around the world, that is. For instance, there's the account that they were in Cantha but didn't do anything to human civilisation there.

Our experience with the Forgotten in GW1 is one where they only fight humans in two circumstances - as part of a test, or when attacked. Testimony from the ghosts of the Elonians that followed Turai, in fact, is that when the Elonians came to the desert, they attacked the Forgotten first, not recognising the Forgotten as a sapient species. In other times when we meet the Forgotten, either they help us (the skill quest you mentioned) or we're the ones helping them.

When it comes to the survival of their civilisation... well, I'd like to know where you got the idea that their positions within the Mists are being overrun thanks to Dhuum, since as far as I know we haven't had anything concrete on how or if the Forgotten fare outside of the Crystal Desert and the Redeemed Realm, and furthermore also as far as we know Dhuum is still confined in the Hall of Judgement (although the number of underworld portals around might be indicating that Grenth is not as in control as he'd like to be). Certainly, I'd agree that they're a race in decline, but keeping in mind that we're comparing to three races that are all but extinct as far as we know and one that has fallen into barbarism. So if there's a viable (if reduced) population of Forgotten anywhere, and they haven't degenerated in the past two and a half centuries, they're doing better than any of the rest.