53 replies to this topic

[Steadfast Gao Shun]

Sorry to derail the thread further, but the conversation on Forgotten is an interesting topic by itself.

Whatever the Prophecies manuscripts may be, I think we can agree on that the Forgotten really do seem to serve the Gods, rather than Glint. One of the interviews with the devs seem to basically expliitly mention that.

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The facets are interesting (this is a reference to a set of quests in Eye of the North in which the player tracks down the facets of the various gods for a researching asura). They are not the gods themselves, but rather ghostly servants, and are tied to the Forgotten, who are not minions of the Elder Dragons.

Quote

When it comes to the survival of their civilisation... well, I'd like to know where you got the idea that their positions within the Mists are being overrun thanks to Dhuum, since as far as I know we haven't had anything concrete on how or if the Forgotten fare outside of the Crystal Desert and the Redeemed Realm, and furthermore also as far as we know Dhuum is still confined in the Hall of Judgement (although the number of underworld portals around might be indicating that Grenth is not as in control as he'd like to be). Certainly, I'd agree that they're a race in decline, but keeping in mind that we're comparing to three races that are all but extinct as far as we know and one that has fallen into barbarism. So if there's a viable (if reduced) population of Forgotten anywhere, and they haven't degenerated in the past two and a half centuries, they're doing better than any of the rest.

Quests in the Domain of Anguish, post-Nightfall, shows that things are going in a less-than-optimal setting. I should probably go back on the Wiki and finish up some of the missing dialogue. At least two separate quests have last-stand-esque styled missions, and one of the in-quest dialogue even have the guy you're supposed to escort state that they're the last of their race. One of the other quest-giving NPCs state that the Margonites overwhelmed them and pushed them back there to one of the outposts (same guy who gave you a list of the demons they fought - I just can't remember his name off the top of my head), etc. In sum, they need the PC's help because Mallyx is absolutely wrecking things.

A lot of really depends on interpretation, and I think it fuels discussion. My interpretation of the Forgotten (again, just an interpretation) is based on some in-game circumstantial statement saying that people all over Tyria tried to come to ascend, only having failed to do so. Their motivation for helping you, the PC, seems to stem from the observation that you are part of the Flameseeker prophecies rather than out of any desire to "help" you achieve their goal. In that sense, they were more closely aligned with Glint, who also have her own agenda. Between that, and interactions with the Margonites (who can't possibly be positive. If anything, the Margonites ascended too, and we know that the Margonites were also in the Crystal Desert even after their banishment since they built those structures), my interpretation is that the Forgotten can't be terribly warm to humanity after all of it.

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 02 November 2012 - 05:19 AM.

[draxynnic]

I've scanned over the Anguish quests and dialogue, and I don't see anything to indicate that the Forgotten thought their race was threatened with extinction. Losing the battle in the Realm of Torment, perhaps. Fearing that they've lost enough numbers to stop being a viable species, no.

Possibly more importantly is that while Mallyx certainly caused problems, he was defeated in the end.

When it comes to ascension... we don't have the story about what happened with the Margonites precisely, but while the Elonian ghosts acknowledge that the Forgotten were an obstacle, they credit their failure to their own disunity. The Forgotten seem to be pro-the-Five and anti-Abaddon - yes, they have a grudge against the Margonites, but I don't think they indiscriminately extend that grudge to other humans that worshipped the Five (or, post-Nightfall, the new Six). Consider the final test of entry into Glint's domain, for instance - there's a Forgotten there that cheerfully informs you that the Forgotten guardians you're about to cut your way through are not there to defend Glint (because Glint is perfectly capable of defending herself) but to stop the unworthy from wasting Glint's time. That they'd "die" for such a cause suggests to me that they're not really dying... and the same is thus likely true for the tests of Ascension. Ergo, in that respect, there's nothing to forgive.

Deaths in the Realm of Torment are another matter, but keep in mind that Forgotten in the Realm of Torment have also been isolated for centuries, shut into the Realm of Torment along with their prisoners. If you do have dialogue that hasn't made it to the wiki that implies that some of the Forgotten believe themselves to be the last of their race, that just means they don't know about other populations that may exist. Or that they're taking the worst case scenario because that's better than going "Oh, well, if we fail that's all right, there's more elsewhere" - similar to how Krytans believe their nation to be humanity's last stand. Intellectually, they might know that Cantha and Elona are also places where humans lived, but without having been in contact, they're not going to assume those nations are still viable when it comes to survival of the species.

[Lillium]

Slightly back on topic, I figured he was just a hook that they might use later to link in new content. Like Mhenlo's history in Cantha was used to draw Proph characters into the story of Factions. I have similar suspicions about Ogden, a race that was supposed to all be dead, and a certain underground dragon. They could pretty easily expand on the Pact to allow characters in other orders a reasonable reason to be around these NPCs.
The guy could be from anywhere though, as was said. He doesn't look Elonian, but that doesn't mean he's Canthan when we don't know what's in MOST of the world map, nor what's going on in the Mists (aside from WvW), nor the Realm of Torment, etc. Hey, maybe he's really the Doctor with a fake name.

[Tregarde]

Hopefully ArenaNet is planning to expand on this in the future.

After all, they can't give away all the secrets at once.

[Mockingjay74]

Overall I had the same thoughts as Lillium. There are so many open hooks in game that are obviously set up for expansions and content patches, it seems like this is one. Why else would Cantha be mentioned? It's been inaccessible for so long... 250 years maximum, right?

Tregarde, on 06 November 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

Hopefully ArenaNet is planning to expand on this in the future.

After all, they can't give away all the secrets at once.

I was told that NCSoft didn't want ArenaNet to add Cantha at any point because they found it to be too racist, although I had never heard of anything along those lines. Has anyone else heard about this?

[Valkaire]

Mockingjay74, on 08 November 2012 - 02:45 AM, said:

Overall I had the same thoughts as Lillium. There are so many open hooks in game that are obviously set up for expansions and content patches, it seems like this is one. Why else would Cantha be mentioned? It's been inaccessible for so long... 250 years maximum, right?


I was told that NCSoft didn't want ArenaNet to add Cantha at any point because they found it to be too racist, although I had never heard of anything along those lines. Has anyone else heard about this?

Never heard of it and don't understand how it would even be considered racist...

[FoxBat]

Mockingjay74, on 08 November 2012 - 02:45 AM, said:

I was told that NCSoft didn't want ArenaNet to add Cantha at any point because they found it to be too racist, although I had never heard of anything along those lines. Has anyone else heard about this?

That would explain why the Canthan district was turned into a crater...

I imagine "racist" is in the context of not offending the Asian market, which did not serve GW1 well in the long run, albeit I'm not sure the two are particularly related. Anyway because GW1 Asia wasn't a great seller, NCSoft may have stepped in on managing their Asia plans a bit, which might include the perception that Factions was poorly received for whatever reason. It might not be anything particularly racist and just a business noticing that  sales took a sudden nosedive, and assuming the problem was with the Factions content.

Edited by FoxBat, 09 November 2012 - 10:41 PM.

[Arngrim Einheri]

I don't think he's from Cantha. He doesn't have any asiatic features, nor skin colour nor eye shape. I thnk he is from a completely new continent/kingdom.

Edited by Arngrim Einheri, 09 November 2012 - 10:46 PM.

[lmaonade]

FoxBat, on 09 November 2012 - 10:36 PM, said:

That would explain why the Canthan district was turned into a crater...

I imagine "racist" is in the context of not offending the Asian market, which did not serve GW1 well in the long run, albeit I'm not sure the two are particularly related. Anyway because GW1 Asia wasn't a great seller, NCSoft may have stepped in on managing their Asia plans a bit, which might include the perception that Factions was poorly received for whatever reason. It might not be anything particularly racist and just a business noticing that  sales took a sudden nosedive, and assuming the problem was with the Factions content.

I can understand why some people might be turned off on Factions (the horrible voice acting for one thing, it was amusing to me but might make other people not want to play it), but I don't understand how i could have offended anyone :\ it was an honest homage to Asian culture, no satire (well MAYBE someone might interpret the voice acting as satirical) or any implications of the sort

and I also don't understand why NCsoft would want it kept out of GW2, especially since Cantha's not going to be a GW1 type stand alone expansion, it's going to be packed into the game that people have already bought, so what would be the problem ._.

[draxynnic]

It could be that Cantha's a general mashup of cultures - some Asians are sensitive about Asian cultures being viewed as a homogenous blob by Westerners who don't appreciate the differences between the individual Asian cultures. If so, it'd be missing the point that all of the cultures in Guild Wars are mashups to an extent, but I can see it as being something that enough Asians would object to to be a problem.

Alternatively, it could be something unrelated to Factions and more related to the Movement of the World's portrayal of Cantha as being racist (or speciesist) and isolationist - somebody might view that as stereotyping and take offense, and NCSoft may have decided they'd prefer to sweep that under the rug.

Mind you, I'm just throwing stuff out here - I haven't seen anything personally about there being issues with Cantha being seen as racist.

[Theworldasd]

I'm asian, and I don't see cantha as anything being remotely racist - in fact, out of all the GW1 campagins, I liked factions most.

[Steadfast Gao Shun]

Sorry, I didn't mean to drop an interesting conversation, but it is awfully hard to run a character through all of Nightfall again for the quests. ;-;

draxynnic, on 02 November 2012 - 02:30 PM, said:

I've scanned over the Anguish quests and dialogue, and I don't see anything to indicate that the Forgotten thought their race was threatened with extinction. Losing the battle in the Realm of Torment, perhaps. Fearing that they've lost enough numbers to stop being a viable species, no.

Possibly more importantly is that while Mallyx certainly caused problems, he was defeated in the end.

When it comes to ascension... we don't have the story about what happened with the Margonites precisely, but while the Elonian ghosts acknowledge that the Forgotten were an obstacle, they credit their failure to their own disunity. The Forgotten seem to be pro-the-Five and anti-Abaddon - yes, they have a grudge against the Margonites, but I don't think they indiscriminately extend that grudge to other humans that worshipped the Five (or, post-Nightfall, the new Six). Consider the final test of entry into Glint's domain, for instance - there's a Forgotten there that cheerfully informs you that the Forgotten guardians you're about to cut your way through are not there to defend Glint (because Glint is perfectly capable of defending herself) but to stop the unworthy from wasting Glint's time. That they'd "die" for such a cause suggests to me that they're not really dying... and the same is thus likely true for the tests of Ascension. Ergo, in that respect, there's nothing to forgive.

Deaths in the Realm of Torment are another matter, but keep in mind that Forgotten in the Realm of Torment have also been isolated for centuries, shut into the Realm of Torment along with their prisoners. If you do have dialogue that hasn't made it to the wiki that implies that some of the Forgotten believe themselves to be the last of their race, that just means they don't know about other populations that may exist. Or that they're taking the worst case scenario because that's better than going "Oh, well, if we fail that's all right, there's more elsewhere" - similar to how Krytans believe their nation to be humanity's last stand. Intellectually, they might know that Cantha and Elona are also places where humans lived, but without having been in contact, they're not going to assume those nations are still viable when it comes to survival of the species.

Ran through Arah's Forgotten path earlier. Got some more information on the Forgotten. I think you're probably more right on this than I am. Furthermore, no matter what they are, they are DEFINITELY anti-Elder dragon/pro Six God/humanity.

Spoiler

So they apparently restored Glint. That's a fascinating tidbit of detail, and suggests that these guys are much more powerful than many players gave them credit for. Leonidas was a fool to engage them.

The interpretation I made was based on several assumptions that may or not be true. I had assumed that the group of Forgotten in the Crystal Desert to be the only Forgotten population, and that they left the deserts at the end of the events of Prophecies. I had also assumed that things were left in a state of flux in the Domain of Anguish, which doesn't appear to be the case due to dialogue at the end of the Ebony Citadel. Canonically, Mallyx also had to be defeated, as Kormir would not be able to take control of the blessed realm otherwise. They were still getting their rear end kicked pretty hard, of course, but your PC apparently did make things better.

The fact that they do have a strong streak of individualism would not at all preclude some individual leaving the Domain of Anguish, too. Should be interesting to see if Velaquez starts hissing in future updates.

Edited by Steadfast Gao Shun, 17 November 2012 - 07:01 PM.

[Mockingjay74]

Steadfast Gao Shun, on 17 November 2012 - 06:59 PM, said:

Spoiler

So they apparently restored Glint. That's a fascinating tidbit of detail, and suggests that these guys are much more powerful than many players gave them credit for. Leonidas was a fool to engage them.

Could you elaborate on this please? What's happening, or what happened when and where?

[Steadfast Gao Shun]

Mockingjay74, on 17 November 2012 - 07:02 PM, said:

Could you elaborate on this please? What's happening, or what happened when and where?

Spoiler

Events from Arah explorable shows you that the Forgotten managed to break Glint away from big purple dragon whose name I still can't spell without resorting to wiki using one of their rituals. It puts the relationship that Glint and the Forgotten has in GW1 in a completely new light. Almost makes you wonder if the Flameseeker Prophecies were written by the Forgotten, rather than Glint herself.

[draxynnic]

Kralkatorrik.

With respect to the Forgotten in the Crystal Desert and the Realm of Torment, they actually have to be separate populations. The Forgotten in the Realm of Torment were the assigned jailors of the prison, and Abaddon and his servants in the Realm of Torment were only able to start pushing out after they'd already put the Forgotten on the back, errr, tail sufficiently to get to the weak spots in the prison. So, basically, the Forgotten we see in the Realm of Torment have been in there since it was sealed in the first place. (Which might explain also why they have no Enchanted - such expendable (more so than live Forgotten) troops probably would have started being sacrificed to save Forgotten lives as soon as things started looking bad, and in the RoT they may have lacked the ability to make more).

[ObscureThreat]

Xermaran, on 30 October 2012 - 04:47 AM, said:

I think it's a hint to the canceled GW1 Expansion Utopia which would have been based on an Aztec theme similar to how Tyria was Europe, Cantha -Asia, and Elona-Africa/Middle East.

That's why he says "the human nation".

http://wiki.guildwar...ild_Wars_Utopia

I like this theory. Makes the most sense and I really want an Aztec themed Guild Wars 2 expansion.

[Valkaire]

ObscureThreat, on 19 November 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

I like this theory. Makes the most sense and I really want an Aztec themed Guild Wars 2 expansion.

The asura pretty much have that covered if you look at the Asura armor and architecture in GW (even some of the armor and architecture in GW2).

[Soulstrider]

Is talk gave me the feeling that he IS human but from somewhere where humans aren't ruling themselves so no Human Nations. I assume he is from an yet to discover continent.

[draxynnic]

Well, the other possibility is that he's just from another human nation, and not accustomed to thinking of Kryta as THE human nation as many Tyrians are.

[Xunlai Agent]

I suspect he may be the Masters of Whispers

[Lordkrall]

Xunlai Agent, on 26 November 2012 - 01:41 PM, said:

I suspect he may be the Masters of Whispers

We already (if we have done the Order of Whispers Questline) know who the current Master of Whispers is.

[MithranArkanere]

This guy is really suspicious.
There's lots of unexplored land, and djinn and many other creatures are quite adept on taking human shape (emember Dehjah?), and we ourselves as player get quite often effects that completely change apeparance.

So he could be anything, from anywhere.
The possibilities are many, but the main ones are:
- He's from an undiscovered human nation.
- He's a human from another world in the mists.
- He's a descendant of Razah, the humanoid demon, disguising his gray skin and lack of body hair.
- He's a descendant of apostate margonites that slowly became humans again quite some time after Abaddon was defeated.
- He's whatever and from wherever Vael was.
- He's a disguised forgotten, seer or some other known race.
- He's a disguised creature of some new, unknown species.
- He's just messing with your head.
- Some combination of some of the previous.

I don't like the guy. My Socrates Note. Thats why I prefer the Priory: "Hey' guys! We know stuff! Here are the books! And See? We have a dwarf! You can see it's a dwarf!"

Edited by MithranArkanere, 28 November 2012 - 11:11 PM.

[Dawn Quickblade]

MithranArkanere, on 28 November 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

- He's a descendant of Razah, the humanoid demon, disguising his gray skin and lack of body hair.

Interesting thought, he could easily be Razah himself.

[Lordkrall]

It would be quite a twist if it turns out he is Lazarus the Dire.
True we don't know if the Mursaat can change form (we do however know that Lazarus has "infected" other people before.) but it is quite possible that they can, and it would make it a rather good way to get the Mursaat back in the game.