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GW2 free to play vs subscription model...


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#61 4thVariety

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 06:25 AM

We do not have to invent arguments as to why companies "need" to charge monthly fees. NCsoft is a publicly traded stock company, they have to publicly announce how they spend their money.  

Let's see then, this is how NCsoft spends its money
Posted Image

You notice that there is a distinct lack of giant server and bandwidth costs. But look closely, they are hidden in a footnote. Right, an afterthought, something almost not worth mentioning. In a three month period, NCsoft spends $2.3 Million on bandwidth. That is for ALL games, ALL websites, ALL downloads they have, EVERYTHING. Next to it is "rent", which is "server rent" (dig up older reports, you'll see), another $1.8 Million. So in order to power all servers for Aion, GW, Lineage, Lineage 2, and City of Heroes, while also maintaining all official websites, NCsoft has to spend $1.3 Million per month.

If you take a look at NCsofts revenue, you notice that the quarterly earnings from Guild Wars alone are be sufficient to pay for all that. Still, NCsoft has high costs, because they have a lot of staff to pay. That's where the money goes. This is where your subscriptions end up, staff and earnings paid to investors. Running the servers has nothing to do with it. MMOs requiring $15 per user and month to keep the server running is nothing but a myth created by the players. No company will challenge this belief though, capitalism, you know. Why educate the user? What's to gain from that?

Just because you pay $15 a month does not mean you will get anything. No, the content the developers will crank out, will most likely be sold to you as an expansion. $40 please, and those $40 will pay for the development of the expansion, then $15 afterwards are just sugar topping, clearest of clear bottom line profit. That's why everybody wants to create an MMO. Why slave away for three years, struggle to make your money back on a market full of piracy, rentals and used sales, when you can charge monthly and basically have smooth sailing?

Guild Wars is a normal game in every respect. The developer ArenaNet found a publisher who gave them money to do a game. ArenaNet made the game and the publisher tries to get the development money back by selling it. Then the publisher fronts them some more money to do a new game and that is the cycle of life, cue Elton John.

The advantage of GW is that it cannot be pirated, it cannot be resold by an organized reseller such as Gamestop and it cannot be rented by the likes of Blockbuster. Sprinkle some microtransactions across for added revenue and you have a winner. You do not need to charge monthly at all for that business to remain viable.

But as long as people think that an MMO server costs trillions of Dollars to maintain, people will pay and companies will charge them for something that could be free.

#62 Intrepid

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 06:52 AM

Please stay on topic and contributing.

#63 Storm of the Ages

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 06:55 AM

Free to play games can be way more expensive than Monthly games.  And its all because of the cash shop.  I played a game called perfect world while I was taking a break from guildwars and I found myself spending more money than I would have liked for things I never really needed.  Even with items that give no advantage at all.

So when it comes down to guild wars 2 im sure they will make alot of money in the same way.  Maybe with things like exclusive weapon and armor skins.  I would buy that!

#64 tmakinen

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 07:15 AM

Can we please get 4thVariety's response stickied to stomp out the proliferation of these threads since it's the best slam dunk I've seen for a while /clap

#65 Guardian of the Light

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 09:25 AM

4thVariety said:

We do not have to invent arguments as to why companies "need" to charge monthly fees. NCsoft is a publicly traded stock company, they have to publicly announce how they spend their money.  

Let's see then, this is how NCsoft spends its money
Posted Image

You notice that there is a distinct lack of giant server and bandwidth costs. But look closely, they are hidden in a footnote. Right, an afterthought, something almost not worth mentioning. In a three month period, NCsoft spends $2.3 Million on bandwidth. That is for ALL games, ALL websites, ALL downloads they have, EVERYTHING. Next to it is "rent", which is "server rent" (dig up older reports, you'll see), another $1.8 Million. So in order to power all servers for Aion, GW, Lineage, Lineage 2, and City of Heroes, while also maintaining all official websites, NCsoft has to spend $1.3 Million per month.

If you take a look at NCsofts revenue, you notice that the quarterly earnings from Guild Wars alone are be sufficient to pay for all that. Still, NCsoft has high costs, because they have a lot of staff to pay. That's where the money goes. This is where your subscriptions end up, staff and earnings paid to investors. Running the servers has nothing to do with it. MMOs requiring $15 per user and month to keep the server running is nothing but a myth created by the players. No company will challenge this belief though, capitalism, you know. Why educate the user? What's to gain from that?

Just because you pay $15 a month does not mean you will get anything. No, the content the developers will crank out, will most likely be sold to you as an expansion. $40 please, and those $40 will pay for the development of the expansion, then $15 afterwards are just sugar topping, clearest of clear bottom line profit. That's why everybody wants to create an MMO. Why slave away for three years, struggle to make your money back on a market full of piracy, rentals and used sales, when you can charge monthly and basically have smooth sailing?

Guild Wars is a normal game in every respect. The developer ArenaNet found a publisher who gave them money to do a game. ArenaNet made the game and the publisher tries to get the development money back by selling it. Then the publisher fronts them some more money to do a new game and that is the cycle of life, cue Elton John.

The advantage of GW is that it cannot be pirated, it cannot be resold by an organized reseller such as Gamestop and it cannot be rented by the likes of Blockbuster. Sprinkle some microtransactions across for added revenue and you have a winner. You do not need to charge monthly at all for that business to remain viable.

But as long as people think that an MMO server costs trillions of Dollars to maintain, people will pay and companies will charge them for something that could be free.

/thread

/clap

/bow

I do believe you just owned the OP.

I think Anet has mastered the art of transactions too. That GW1 store is stuffed with little things hardcore players will spend cash on but won't anger the player base and it's not cheap too... seriously $15 for an "extreme makeover"?... can't believe some of you guys.

#66 haviz

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 09:50 AM

4thVariety said:

/snip

All those fees are not in dollars. They are in South Korean Won and 1 South Korean won = 0.000837 U.S. dollars. So the quarterly fees for bandwith and rent is like 5,000$. There you have your 'service costs'.

#67 Obosi

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 09:51 AM

When I saw the title of this thread I laughed for about five minutes! Reason being is I've just spent the last few days arguing this very point across multiple threads IN FAVOUR of the OP.

This time though I think I'll speak for the other side. :devil:

After looking into a few things and gauging the level of sheer excitement across multiple forums, not to mention a very impressive Gamescom debut, I think that this game will sell huge.
I also reckon that, if handled correctly, that the micro-transaction market could be just as lucrative as subscriptions. If that happens then the days of pricey subs could be over across the whole genre.

I'm not gonna talk about their quarterly reports or the cost of servers as I've talked long enough about them on other threads. All i'll say is that if ANet get the current GW2 model to work (and I think that they will) then it will be by far the best thing for the industry since MMOs went 3D

However, I believe that there is no right or wrong; there is only opinion until the results are in. If it all goes 'Pete Tong' for Arenanet then it will become evident to us all in time. Until then, look to both sides of every story party-people ;)

Forgive typos - wrote this on my phone :o

#68 piralchemist

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 09:55 AM

Rmz said:

In a age when PC games are costing as much as movies to make (e.g. Starcraft 2 cost $100 million in dev cost only), before you begin investing hours of your life in a game, it's probably a good idea to figure out the likelyhood of the company who developed that game sticking around.

When the game company in question is based in one of the most liberal (read: anti-corporate)  states in the union, you have to wonder if the "play-for-free" principle is not a utopian dream just waiting for the needle of Capitalism to bust it's bubble.

STFU you say! Let me play my games and don't bore me with boring details of business, I don't care... Besides it's worked so far, look ArenaNet is still around since 2005!

Well, it is important to question this stuff! Yes, AreanNet has survived all these years, but the question is at who's expense? New content really stopped rolling out of ArenaNet in 2007 after Eye of the North. The sum of all Guild Wars series of games is around 6.5 million units (6-million units reported late 2009). Assuming the initial development cost + all operational expenses + marketing, advertising etc topped out around a conservative $10-$15 million per title (Prop, Factions, Nightfall, EoTN), where is the recouped money coming from??? Keep in mind it cost a lot of money to maintain servers, create new in-game content, etc... The answer of course is the deep pockets of NCSoft and their faith in ArenaNet delivering Guild Wars 2.

If a for-pay MMO only sells 3-million units. It has a steady $14/month revenue stream coming in. Let's say only 1/4th of those who make that purchase decide to keep their subscription current. 1/4 of 3-million is 750,000. Multiply that by $15 and you get the point- $10-million in monthly revenue. That's a lot of money for the developer to pump back into the game! Money a company like ArenaNet forfeits on the principle of "let the gamers play for free".

You don't need a degree in economics to realize how insane in principle the "play-for-free" model is.... Take a close look at Guild Wars 2 and tell me you would not pay to play this game? Would you pay if you knew it would insure your favorite game had plenty of fresh content? If you knew Guild Wars 2 could be a much better game with subscription money coming in would you prefer it to remain free or would you rather play!

In absence of a subscription model we're told ArenaNet will keep revenue flowing in through micro-transactions. But micro-transactions can soil the virtual economy (see Ruins of Magic). Perhaps ArenaNet has some strong innovate ideas around micro-transactions that they don't want to reveal just yet... I for one would like to know a lot more about this ASAP.



wrong... wrong... wrong...
Anet sold one new campaign every six months for about 40$ per campaign wich makes for 6.x $ per month as long as they published, that's less lucrative than 12.5 per month, but it's still not bad, certainly if you got six million players ready to pay you those 6 bucks per month, you've got 36/37 million coming in each month, that's far more than enough, don't you think?
As for the funding of gw2, that's all coming from the pockets of NCsoft in the hope that there'll be about 10 million people out there willing to pay those six bucks per month, accounting for 60.x million per month, development costs will be paid back in two months at most.

#69 Wakers

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 10:00 AM

Please sticky 4th Variety's post somewhere.  In fact, someone please go post it on the EQ, WoW and other pay monthly games forums too.

It's irritating seeing everyone say "it can't survive, the bandwidth costs will be too high!"

#70 GhostBoy

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 10:03 AM

haviz said:

All those fees are not in dollars. They are in South Korean Won and 1 South Korean won = 0.000837 U.S. dollars. So the quarterly fees for bandwith and rent is like 5,000$. There you have your 'service costs'.
It's not quite that cheap. Look at the top right. I says (Units KRW in MN), or "million korean won". His numbers are correct. Even if they weren't, the point still stands though :P

#71 piralchemist

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 10:07 AM

amitai said:

totaly agree

yah and u know a lot of economy as well i bet you do. because how they say in america they are as capitalists as you can be
this is why most of the pepole lives in the more socialist countrys that found in europe have better lives at average.
and the gap between the rich and poors is much smaller than the usa.

cause obviously a person that made a huge disscovery one time in his life or had a parent who did it or even a grandfather totaly deserve to have way more money than those pepole who works two jobs for all day long all the time.

+1, at least, someone shut that irritating mouth of maldeus' down, socialism helps everyone, capitalism helps those who pay for it.

#72 Juk3n

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 10:07 AM

Rmz said:

Take a close look at Guild Wars 2 and tell me you would not pay to play this game? Would you pay if you knew it would insure your favorite game had plenty of fresh content? If you knew Guild Wars 2 could be a much better game with subscription money coming in would you prefer it to remain free or would you rather play!

In absence of a subscription model we're told ArenaNet will keep revenue flowing in through micro-transactions. But micro-transactions can soil the virtual economy (see Ruins of Magic). .

No i would not rent-game-time from any company ever, i flat out refuse to pay any subscription fees ontop of a $120 (collectors edition) initial fee.

As for micro transactions ruining the v-economy. I lol at you if you think Anet will have the rarest items in-game for sale at 5 bucks on there site..Are you insane?

What Anet sells through the micros is COMPLETLEY asthetic, untradable in-game, and /or account locked content.

Describe a type of transaction , micro or otherwise that Anet would use to ruin the economy in there game..


It's ok, i'll wait...

This isn't some bum money grabbing company, this is a labour of love, a peice of Art, by the most talented artists in gaming. And we've never seen a lack of content or maintenence in the 5 years of GW1, there is no reason to suspect it will happen in GW2 no reason at all.

#73 borovnica

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 10:14 AM

Again with the subscription fee model... give it a rest already... GW2 will be b2p, since Anet knows that most people who play MMO's play more than one game, meaning people will buy the game, if they like it they will continue to play it and buy expansions, if not.. hey Anet is richer for 50$...
4thVariety explained it already really nice...

#74 Turambar

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 10:22 AM

In effect, there will be Net Profit if X amount of box sales are sold. This is including o/h costs.

That point is the Break-Even point. It should be pretty easy to gauge this point. I read somewhere it would be at about 2million box sales [check?]

But another consideration is this: If the quality of the game is higher than other MMOs and the B2P pricing adopted is more competitive than other MMOs P2P, then you could imagine both of these factors both stimulating box sales to well above 2 million? After all it is cheaper to the customer (over the long-term or appears to be) and is less in direct competition with a current MMO P2P subscription.

So the very act of adopting a more competitive pricing model (which is still proportionally rare in the market) could in fact drive up both initial sales and work to sustain high a/c numbers (no monthly sub). Secondly once the core development of the MMO game engine is done, creating expansions based on this new/used engine should be easier... as long as there are a lot of a/c holders and those customers are satisfied they got the best quality game, then they will be more inclined to preferentially purchase this next at higher development rate and lower development cost.

It's persuasive based on the assumption the game design is solid, then the business model backs that even more. Microtransactions are the icing on the B2P cake.

#75 haviz

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 10:44 AM

GhostBoy said:

It's not quite that cheap. Look at the top right. I says (Units KRW in MN), or "million korean won". His numbers are correct. Even if they weren't, the point still stands though :P

Yes, and 1 million korean won is equal to $836.68. It's less than 1 thousand dollars.

#76 Mr Passion

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 10:59 AM

haviz said:

Yes, and 1 million korean won is equal to $836.68. It's less than 1 thousand dollars.

Err, it's ~5.1 thousand million KWR, not 5.1 million KWR
so more like $4.25million USD for 3 months, not $4250.

even so, compared to total quarterly expenses from that table
bandwidth and rent makeup somewhere between 15-20% of the total

#77 Lokomotiv

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 11:05 AM

Honestly i feel subscription fees for playing a game are totaly a rip off!
I'm a casual player and i hate to pay 1 month game for using 10 hours during that month.
I was going to be an AION player once they sugested the pay what you play model to the game. Aparently it was only for korean players.
The Atlantica Online model is not so good either, its a f2p game but u really need to get a teleport licence from store that lasts some time either you use it or not.
Any time based payment is a RIP OFF!!!
Probably GWs2 will have the best system for casual players.

#78 4thVariety

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 11:07 AM

Turambar said:

That point is the Break-Even point. It should be pretty easy to gauge this point. I read somewhere it would be at about 2million box sales [check?]

That would have been true four years ago, but since then, the metrics have changed. Ever since all platforms have very convenient systems for DLC and microtransactions in place, the publishers think more than ever about "monetization per user", than actual box sales. Not that box sales would be unimportant, but these days, publisher sell the retail game at $60 and then at least two DLC packs at $10. Not everybody buys those of course, but even if you consider the Sony/MS/Valve tax of 30%, the publisher retains a higher percentage of the sticker price than with the boxed product.

A good example is EA. They now dig heavily into all sorts of DLC and microtransactions, or straight game sales across all platforms. As a result, digital revenue is 20% of their entire business. But those are important 20%, since they incur less costs than trying to sell 20% more boxed copies.

No matter how much DLC comes after the initial release, the costs of developing it were already factored in by the publisher on the day he green lit the project. The developer does not gain more money by doing it, he owes the publisher a game, 3 dlc packs and some weird Sony/MS avatar stuff, backdrops and whatever. Take a game such as Fallout 3 and calculate the costs. The publisher does not expect everybody to buy the DLC, but he knows that if the entire content the publisher ordered is spread out like this, the per capita monetization is $46.2 instead $39. 20% more revenue, because you sold some optional sidestory content separately. Isn't that too good to be true? Just make sure you do not print it on the disc right away anymore, else people might notice the get coned.


Turambar said:

It's persuasive based on the assumption the game design is solid, then the business model backs that even more. Microtransactions are the icing on the B2P cake.

Right now it is the icing because microtransactions are simply more of the same, or visual variation. Nobody has yet tried to compartmentalize an entire game in such a way that it makes sense to micro it off, one game mode at a time. It will be interesting to see, if ArenaNet dares to hold back some minigames in GW2, or tries to sell them separately. You want Rollerbeetle? That's a $5 addon. You want the Punch out remake featuring Kilroy, that's another $5. The Tetris clone and all the other classic puzzle game remakes?

Indygames on Steam works like this in a very traditional online sales platform fashion. It be interesting to experiment with trying to make an MMO itself the platform for additional revenue. People are already invested in their character/account progression, so why buy it from Zynga or PopCap, when you can buy it from Anet and progress your character even more. Get the Bejeweled Armor :p I am no stranger to buying weird games off steam for achievements, who of you is?

If I look at Blizzard for their next MMO, then I see a bad storm brewing when it comes to that. And then Micro-Ts will not be the icing, they will be the subscription replacement. Those type of minigames sales require more effort though, that's where things are stuck right now.


haviz said:

Yes, and 1 million korean won is equal to $836.68. It's less than 1 thousand dollars.
The unit is million won and the coma is NOT indicating decimals. So the costs for bandwidth are 2810000000 Won (two point eight billion won). You can listen to the conference call, they read it out loud.

Edited by 4thVariety, 31 August 2010 - 11:10 AM.


#79 Pan

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 11:13 AM

piralchemist said:

+1, at least, someone shut that irritating mouth of maldeus' down, socialism helps everyone, capitalism helps those who pay for it.

On both accounts your examples don't stand the reality and history check.
Though I might be misunderstanding your intent and you are defending neither, either way this is not a personal attack against you or anything of that sort.

Socialism has never helped anyone but the upper class.
Capitalism only provides long term benefit to the upper class.

There are no real world examples of socialism or capitalism being in it for the benefit of the people. Thats not a surprise since both ideas stem from the same desire to rule and control a worker class.

Neither systems were invented for the good of regular people. Thats a historical fact backed up by present day observation. The solution is to identify the commonalities between both systems. Choosing 1 over the other plays into that idealogical divide, since profit is mostly generated through conflict.

Sorry,
------------------------------

On topic: This might be a silly question but are server costs not pre calculated into the development budget?

If I were to fund a MMORPG, I think I would invest in a projected server cost to ensure that the initial box sale can make up for all the costs.

edit: The thread moved quite a bit since I was writing this answer, I'll have to read up to see if the answer was posted.

edit nr 2: Who ever provided this link in this thread, Thank you!

Edited by Pan, 31 August 2010 - 11:21 AM.


#80 Turambar

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 11:31 AM

4thVariety said:

That would have been true four years ago, but since then, the metrics have changed. Ever since all platforms have very convenient systems for DLC and microtransactions in place, the publishers think more than ever about "monetization per user", than actual box sales. Not that box sales would be unimportant, but these days, publisher sell the retail game at $60 and then at least two DLC packs at $10. Not everybody buys those of course, but even if you consider the Sony/MS/Valve tax of 30%, the publisher retains a higher percentage of the sticker price than with the boxed product.

A good example is EA. They now dig heavily into all sorts of DLC and microtransactions, or straight game sales across all platforms. As a result, digital revenue is 20% of their entire business. But those are important 20%, since they incur less costs than trying to sell 20% more boxed copies.

[...]

If I look at Blizzard for their next MMO, then I see a bad storm brewing when it comes to that. And then Micro-Ts will not be the icing, they will be the subscription replacement. Those type of minigames sales require more effort though, that's where things are stuck right now.



The unit is million won and the coma is NOT indicating decimals. So the costs for bandwidth are 2810000000 Won (two point eight billion won). You can listen to the conference call, they read it out loud.

You are spot on: Box Sales <> Downloads.

I did a few calculation on the NCSoft report above you supplied and GW2 is looking (potentially) very good news for them. I could see that being an understatement considering how well their other MMOs are already doing on P2P.

Those microtransaction egs great! :D

I'd say companies should take care not to intrude on the game experience too much. Once ppl are playing they get antsy if they have to put their budget hat on in the middle of a sword-fight!

#81 Obosi

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 11:44 AM

piralchemist said:

+1, at least, someone shut that irritating mouth of maldeus' down, socialism helps everyone, capitalism helps those who pay for it.

You need to enhance your calm, dude.



I am finding it quite amusing that some people actually think that keeping a game running is as simple as paying for bandwidth and servers. Oh well...

As much as I don't want to say it, it's only fair to make clear that there is nothing socialist about NCSoft. They are here to make money. If they could get away with subscriptions without totally betraying the Guild Wars faithful then they would. Anyone who believes otherwise is simply naive or blissfully ignorant to the world.

That being said...maybe micro-transactions is a way to please everyone and make some money-for-nothing.

After all. Let's face it, according to some, what they will be making available through microtransactions: outfits, emotes possibly, maybe a new weapon skin or two (nothing that gives an actual advantage); these things should really be in the game to begin with. Even if they are created after release, they should be just something that comes as a free update.

Well that's how other subbed MMOs do it. Take WoW as an example. They reskinned alot of their weapons and some of their armour from drab to bling as the game went along. Added many a costume too. Why not GW2?

Aaaaah but you are forgetting...It's FREE TO PLAY! (after purchase) :D
So all the money you are saving by paying no subs...well you can just blow in the game's online store and get what you're missing now, can't you?

And if you're not bothered about a few frilly dresses and the odd shiny thing, well it's all good then isn't it?

Unfortunately, if you are bothered about what you are missing out on, but can't (or by principle won't) pay a little extra to buy these things...well sorry chum. Capitalism and all that. You are easily the minority and are therefore, what the industry would call, inconsequential.

BEHOLD! The great subscription workaround! Maybe NCSoft and ArenaNet are more clever (and sneaky) than people give them credit for. ;)

#82 Stuart444

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 12:15 PM

Obosi said:

Well that's how other subbed MMOs do it. Take WoW as an example. They reskinned alot of their weapons and some of their armour from drab to bling as the game went along. Added many a costume too. Why not GW2?

Umm, yeah but WoW also released a mount that you had to buy (which some could argue should have been released as an update) which netted them 2 or 3 million (right?) in under 24 hours iirc

#83 Qehb

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 12:22 PM

This is the way I see it:

In the current AAA MMO market place near all MMO's are currently Subsription model, the generic price of which is 15$ a month.

People hence can only play 1 or 2 MMO's at a time at most which means any new MMO's using a subsription model must take players from other MMO's to fuel their own which is no easy task.

But with Guild Wars 2's payment method it means people from other MMO's can buy the game just as they would with a regular console game and do not feel the need to have to quit their current MMO to play it.

This means Arenanet has the opportunity to sell far more copys of their game to people then they would of with a Sub-model, which renders the subscription model redundant.

And us as fans have to spend 60$ a year at most while people playing Sub-games have to pay 180$.

#84 Obosi

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 12:53 PM

Stuart444 said:

Umm, yeah but WoW also released a mount that you had to buy (which some could argue should have been released as an update) which netted them 2 or 3 million (right?) in under 24 hours iirc

I don't know what mount you are on about as I've not played WoW for a couple of years now, but I so would not put it past them. I reckon they secretly own half the gold selling companies too ;)

Qehb said:

This is the way I see it:

In the current AAA MMO market place near all MMO's are currently Subsription model, the generic price of which is 15$ a month.

People hence can only play 1 or 2 MMO's at a time at most which means any new MMO's using a subsription model must take players from other MMO's to fuel their own which is no easy task.

But with Guild Wars 2's payment method it means people from other MMO's can buy the game just as they would with a regular console game and do not feel the need to have to quit their current MMO to play it.

This means Arenanet has the opportunity to sell far more copys of their game to people then they would of with a Sub-model, which renders the subscription model redundant.

And us as fans have to spend 60$ a year at most while people playing Sub-games have to pay 180$.

I can dig that scenario. One issue though: Brand loyalty. Console games are easy to walk away from. People are fickle. Subs are harder to leave as the time and money invested are often a hook tying you there. So is the community which will disappear if a person cancels their subs (sure there's workarounds but you catch my drift). It's messed up but true.

Guild Wars 2 needs to be able to live up to it's billing as a reinvention of the wheel if it plans on keeping it's servers bustling. Man I want to demo this game so bad, so I could see what it's current state is really like.

#85 Lord of Potatoes

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 12:59 PM

Aions money->NCSoft->ANet I think, P2P games pays for GW2 a bit I believe.

#86 Evelgest

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 01:00 PM

Quote

You don't need a degree in economics to realize how insane in principle the "play-for-free" model is....
You know what? I'm positive NCsoft has employees with degrees in economics that worry about this, so you, the player, doesn't have to.

Cheers.

#87 Tonden Ockay

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 01:10 PM

I don’t believe most people understand that the largest amount of time, money and work that goes into building the game platform, classes, races, and all the balancing when a game is first created. That does not need to be done with expansions. It may take 3 to 6 years building a great game but expansions will not take all the time, work, and money as the first release did.

Take EQ (EverQuest) for example. They where releasing a new expansion every nine months or less. With all the core work all ready done they were able to just bring out new content quickly with little overhead involved. If GW2 does something like this then they can make more then enough money needed to do what ever they want to with GW2.

All so if Arenanet makes a game that is just as good or better (in its own way) then WoW with no monthly free to play. They will pull players from all MMOs and all the private servers as well this would more then likely let them make new record breaking sales in the MMO industry. Which will generate so much money it would be ridicules.

They are going to have:

* two different kinds of PVP (PVP players)
* real RPG in their MMORPG (Role playing fans)
* end game content (Hardcore players)
* fast pace game with lot of combat (Action players)
* fast leveling with sidekick system (Casual players)
* no monthly fee (Private server players)


If you really stop and take a few minutes to think about who all GW2 will attract. You will see it will be a lot larger group of people then WoW does and WoW is the king of MMORPGs at the moment.

#88 Chalky

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Posted 31 August 2010 - 01:11 PM

Oh, wow, cool. So this thread is fun.

Some sort of surreal combination armchair economists, off topic debates about socialism vs capitalism and a bunch of flames?

Awesome.

Especially since 4thVariety basically /thread'd this thing quite some time ago, I think we're really beyond the point of productive conversation on this topic.

Anet have run a non subscription game for several years now and they think they can run this one without a subscription too.  I'm gonna go ahead and take their word for it.
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