29 replies to this topic

[actionjack]

I feel in a environment of WvW, having a repair cost discourage certain type of player from having full enjoyments.  It's true that you want death to have some type of consequence, as to prevent careless zerging, but feel could be done other way rather than the cost of silver or gold.

So what about this.  Death in WvW will handled a bit differntly.  Death will not result in equipment damage, rather it will have a debuff effect. (call it Moral Lost, or Death Sickness, etc).  Similar to that of GW1, on each death, you would have a say (-5% to -10%) on all stats and HP (number could be adjust and balanced, here use are just an example).  This stacks.  This debuff effect goes away after a while (say 10-25  mins), but can also be instantly remove by an NPC at the camp (at a cost of some copper/silver per stack).  The affected time can also be decreased by finishing objective, help rezing other, or making kills.   This affect is remove once out of WvW, however, returns when return back to WvW (within a 24 hours).  (this is so to avoid people resetting themself by just enter and exit).

I think this might help to make WvW more attractive and competitively, while still retain some of the desired usage of repair cost in game.


edit:  increase the suggested time of the debuff.

Edited by actionjack, 04 October 2012 - 03:03 PM.

[deitiesforce]

I think it is a great idea but then people are gonna use the gold sink argument.....

[Sheepski]

deitiesforce, on 04 October 2012 - 07:27 AM, said:

I think it is a great idea but then people are gonna use the gold sink argument.....

I think there's more than enough gold sinks already. When I do go to WvW I don't expect to make a loss because of all the deaths. Sure the more hardcore players aren't going to die as much, and therefore save money, but they're also the more likely to buy upgrades... that's your gold sink imo.

[Gladium]

If you don't want repairs they should take away drops other than badges too.

[Rekkwum]

Gladium, on 04 October 2012 - 08:54 AM, said:

If you don't want repairs they should take away drops other than badges too.

Yeah, plus all the cash rewards from DEs, and all the gatherable nodes.

I'm not an elite hardcore player, especially when it comes to PvP. No matter which character I bring (high level in exotics, low level in whatever was available), I've still ended up with more money than I started with.
I do, however, tend to avoid going along with the zerg, and instead hit camps, gank dolyaks, take down sentrys etc, each of which give me a good chunk of cash that far outweighs any repair costs I get.

[Lordkrall]

Indeed, as long as you can earn currency in WvW they need to have the repair-cost there.

[shanaeri rynale]

Lordkrall, on 04 October 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Indeed, as long as you can earn currency in WvW they need to have the repair-cost there.

As mythbusters would say 'Well there's your problem'. Just make only account bound tokens drop, and link with a debuff. Job done.

[Ritualist]

Why would this be limited to WvW only?

[actionjack]

Thanks for the relies.

Putting the core principles of the concept in "fluffy words". Death, in WvW, still need to be costly.  However, since WvW is not to be associated with money farming, so the cost of using the gold currency seem to be misdirected.  Instead, shift the cost to time and skill/performance, which have a closer link-in with the competitiveness of the format.

A easier way could be allowing repair NPC to also take Kill Tokens as payment.

However, I think the Death Debuff could work as well.  However, that doesn't mean it is not a gold sink.  As in order to be competitive and to get back to the game quicker, you either have to work well under those debuffs to get lots kills or finish lots task (which reduce the duration of the debuff), or pay to get it remove.

It is a also a good way of adding pressure from the other side, as killing you opponents could mean an steamroll advantage too (which eventually mean they still need to pay to "repair" if don't want to be steamrolled)

[RabidusIncendia]

Lordkrall, on 04 October 2012 - 10:53 AM, said:

Indeed, as long as you can earn currency in WvW they need to have the repair-cost there.

I don't believe so.  If you''re farming events or dungeons, you lose maybe 5% of your earnings to waypoints and repair.  In WvW you lose about 200-400% of your earnings to repair and siege at prime time.

Edited by RabidusIncendia, 04 October 2012 - 03:34 PM.

[Lordkrall]

RabidusIncendia, on 04 October 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

I don't believe so.  If you''re farming events or dungeons, you lose maybe 5% of your earnings to waypoints and repair.  In WvW you lose about 200-400% of your earnings to repair and siege at prime time.

So you simply want to be able to gain loads of gold in WvW but not having to actually pay anything at all for it?
That would make gold worth even less than it is now.

As for does numbers I would call bullshit. I tend to get more than enough silver to repair my stuff each day in WvW.
Simply don't run around aimlessly and die and there won't be a problem.

[SaintThunderdome]

I've been a part of a lot of uneven fights, and the unmanned buff doesn't really do much to help in these instances where you keep throwing yourself against a wall of people, die, and get back into the area to push. A death debuff might discourage death, but it also empowers the zerg. You'll have the freshly dead hanging out in the spawn area mall, waiting for a debuff to wear off, not going back into the fight. This keeps people waiting in the queue, and ultimately reduces numbers in the field.

For servers that are already outnumbered, that's not really an attractive proposition. And honestly, you make enough to cover your repair losses as long as you aren't running off solo all the time. A group doesn't have to be organized to be smart, sneak around, cap objectives, and make progress.

[RabidusIncendia]

Lordkrall, on 04 October 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

So you simply want to be able to gain loads of gold in WvW but not having to actually pay anything at all for it?
That would make gold worth even less than it is now.

As for does numbers I would call bullshit. I tend to get more than enough silver to repair my stuff each day in WvW.
Simply don't run around aimlessly and die and there won't be a problem.

I take it you don't buy any trebuchets?   Additionally, if you don't die in WvW you're not playing optimally.

Even still, with lenient numbers, like you don't buy siege and you just sit in the back of zerg, I'd say you lose at least 40% to repairs, and when you average it with those who actually do more dangerous missions and buy siege, WvWvW is stll a massive goldsink.  Not to mention, you gain gold at a much slower pace in addition.  I bet if you took out repair costs entirely, you'd still get far more gold farming orr.  If you agree, exactly why does WvWvW need repair costs then?

[Sans]

If you're losing as a team, you already have a disadvantage due to Orbs of power.

Though I do like the idea.
If they gave different servers different DP depending on their spot.

i.e.
1st place server = 20%DP per death (Max 20%)
2nd place server = 10%DP per death (Max 10%)
3rd place server = 5%DP per death (Max 5%)

Getting a kill = 1% DP removal
Getting a DE Medal = 2% DP Removal

This might help the matches be a little more competitive
(Instead of 1 server controlling 90%+ of structures, which is really boring)

Orbs of power would have to be changed, just giving a 5% damage boost per, instead of everything else it gives.

[actionjack]

Interesting concept of dynamic death debuffs (and regains)  Could also see it link to how much you control and such.


I did think about the possibility of player sitting out to regain the Death Debuff, and not contributing.  However, similar argument  could be made of people not want to join in due to repair cost (or not willing to take more risk).  It is also a good way of adding pressure on to opponent team, making wining a battle (and wiping their team) more significant than gaining over the time of them running back from waypoint.  I feel it is a more integrated way to handle death in WvW.

And keep in mind that in order to be a "good" and contributing player in WvW, you should always pay to remove the death debuffs, so you would still be efficient.  Thus it still act as a gold sink, but just more "optional".

[GODh]

Somehow i agree with this post, because i think its a problem that players dont want to enter wvw when another server is dominating. The way its now is a serious moneysink when your server isnt doing well enough (and afaik you won't get (hardly) any drops either... the game is still new, but i think that the fear of losing a lot of money, not having fun (because most normal people dont like getting their @ss kicked constantly) and hardly gaining anything can ruin wvw in the long term.

I am not sure if debufs are the solution as it makes it even harder to win something...

[LemuriaBlaize]

In an ideal world, the people who join WvW are the ones both capable of fighting, and willing to join the fray. The players who I tend to stick by and respect are the ones who will sink their earnings into keep upgrades, siege weapons and generally muck in with the rest of us regardless of their level or status.

Repair costs aren't really necessary in any kind of PvP to be honest. Some might argue that WvW needs more gold sinks, but those are often the ones who are sitting on the sidelines basking in the income rather than actually participating in the fights and paying for the necessary upgrades to actually retain your structures.

Siege weapons are costly. You can offset the cost somewhat by using badges instead of cash, but if you're playing to win they will whittle down quickly and you'll be relying on your purse to shell out. Upgrades can only be paid with through coin alone, and they get quite pricey as you increase in hierarchy.

I don't expect any sweeping changes from Anet regarding how WvW works, but it's nice to know I'm not the only one who thinks having to constantly repair in PvP is a bit overkill.

[Smallwalk]

My solution: Add repair canister to daily event and lower eqp fix -20% --- 30%. In WvW the eqp fix is making all casual players go away and cant really blame them. Sometimes u get hit hard and often and fight hours over some keep that doesnt even give repairin silver back. TIght WvW battle is worst money making and it should be noticed in eqp repairs! Outmanned buff should also give very low repair.

Moral loss would be horrible idea sorry to say. When fighting outmanned against server with orbs they already have +15 % hp and 150 stats. If you get -5% minus one orb holder could take several outmanned

Edited by Smallwalk, 07 October 2012 - 02:40 PM.

[Ritualist]

LemuriaBlaize, on 07 October 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

I don't expect any sweeping changes from Anet regarding how WvW works, but it's nice to know I'm not the only one who thinks having to constantly repair in PvP is a bit overkill.

That's because you are perceiving WvW as PvP - it's not. It's basically PvE at worst, at best, it's PvP with a HEAVY PvE elements.
So, as I asked above, if WvW shouldn't have repair costs, why should actual PvE?

[rukh]

So not only are valuable slots be taken up by players who die all the time, but said players are to be made less effective than the people waiting in the queue?  Anyone who continues to play after accumulating moral loss would be hurting their server.

[actionjack]

I don't get the counter agreement of moral loss make player less effective.  If they are dedicated player, they could simply pay and reduce the moral loss (still a gold sink).  However, if they are good player (or in a good group), than they might be able to get away with it at first one or two stage of moral loss, and gain back by just playing.

And if they just want to sit out and do nothing... well.. currently, player in WvW can do that too.
(actually.. heck, I could even see do away with recovery time on moral, and making it recovery only by gold, exiting, or playing)

Edited by actionjack, 09 October 2012 - 04:56 AM.

[Kaguchan]

I don't mind repairing my gear from time to time, but in WvW, if you play it very active, you just loose so much gold thats kinda insane. They should remove the costs for sure, or sink them at least, so you don't have a permanent gold sink just because you like WvW.

[Lordkrall]

Kaguchan, on 09 October 2012 - 07:39 AM, said:

I don't mind repairing my gear from time to time, but in WvW, if you play it very active, you just loose so much gold thats kinda insane. They should remove the costs for sure, or sink them at least, so you don't have a permanent gold sink just because you like WvW.

Hmm?
I spend most of my weekends in WvW and I have yet to lose much money to repairs.
You gain loads of silver by taking keeps/camps/towers or killing caravans.
I tend to have MORE money after I leave WvW than I had before leaving.

[Kaguchan]

Lordkrall, on 09 October 2012 - 07:59 AM, said:

Hmm?
I spend most of my weekends in WvW and I have yet to lose much money to repairs.
You gain loads of silver by taking keeps/camps/towers or killing caravans.
I tend to have MORE money after I leave WvW than I had before leaving.

Depends which BG you are going, and if your server is getting owned you loose alot

[Lordkrall]

Kaguchan, on 09 October 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

Depends which BG you are going, and if your server is getting owned you loose alot

Not really.
We are currently switching between last and middle place in our current match up. And at least once a day our homeland is more or less completely blue/green (we are red), we then retake most of it.
As long as you play in a good group with a good leader instead of just running around aimlessly you won't really lose much, if any, currency.

[Mottle]

I am all for the idea of no armor damage in WvW, but really, the same player getting stomped on and quitting because of the repair costs is going to quit because he has been debuffed and now has an even smaller chance at success. If this person wants that chance back, he's back at square one, only now he's paying for debuff removal costs.

I'd suggest removal on a successful takeover of a camp or higher. Motivate that player to find a group to take something from the enemy, maybe having him pay attention to the actual map and server movement will increase his ability to the benefit everyone on his team.

[Kaguchan]

Lordkrall, on 09 October 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

Not really.
We are currently switching between last and middle place in our current match up. And at least once a day our homeland is more or less completely blue/green (we are red), we then retake most of it.
As long as you play in a good group with a good leader instead of just running around aimlessly you won't really lose much, if any, currency.

I am not on your server and I am telling you that our people are everything but organised, most fights are between the 2 lower forts at the bridge and it goes left, right, left right. Nothing else.

[Lordkrall]

Indeed, unorganized players will die a lot.
But that simply means this cost will "force" them to actually start organizing if they want to avoid it ^^

[Briar]

Lordkrall, on 09 October 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

Indeed, unorganized players will die a lot.
But that simply means this cost will "force" them to actually start organizing if they want to avoid it ^^

you cannot "force" people to do anything. if they cannot play the way that they want to then they will simply not play

[RabidusIncendia]

Briar, on 09 October 2012 - 10:44 AM, said:

you cannot "force" people to do anything. if they cannot play the way that they want to then they will simply not play

Well, no need to get existentialist now.  That may be true, but you can force people in the sense of the word force that we care about.  If they completely fixed WvWvW to be fun and competitive but I have to pay a copper to queue, they've pretty much forced me to pay that copper..