150 replies to this topic

[Adalbit]

Washi, on 05 October 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

The damage you see is not for the last hit, it's for the entire combo. When you realize that, you will see that you do comparable damage with your axe just autoattacking. GS does more damage with all the traits, but with axes you can pick whatever traits you want and you still do alot of damage.

OMG lol I am lvl 75 and I honestly never even realized that. I though damage numbers were for the damage you were doing, but I guess gw2 wanted to be different. Man that seems dumb right? Why not just put up the damage you are doing lol

[Ranger2021]

Cowmonaut, on 17 October 2012 - 04:43 PM, said:

Assuming max Weapon Strength (Exotics), 1700 Power, 2600 Target Armor:

• Whirling Axe deals 1867 damage.
  
• Hundred Blade deals 3767 damage.

And that's without considering the 12% bonus to damage both can take advantage of thanks to Berserker's Power or the fact that the Greatsword can get an extra 10% direct damage with the Slashing Power Trait and can more easily stack Vulnerability thanks to its Chain Attack.

The Skill Coefficient for Hundred Blade and the damage of an Exotic Greatsword is just so much better than Whirling Axe and the damage of an Exotic Axe.

Its straight up mathematically impossible for Whirling Axe to do as much damage as Hundred Blade to a single target.

On the other hand, Whirling Axe can perform Combos, lets you move while using it, and hits all targets in an area around you.  Hundred Blade may do more damage, but you are stationary when you do so and its only whatever is in front of you.  For PvE its pretty much a no-brainer on which to use, but in PvP it makes sense to bring an off-hand Axe sometimes.

Also, if your crit chance is high enough it can be useful with Condition Damage (Bleed; main hand Sword) builds as you get a whopping 15 hits with Whirling Axe.  Assuming you went down Arms and have a Superior Sigil of Earth you are looking at 7 stacks of Bleeding being applied by Whirling Axe on average.  And since Dual Strike hits twice it also can benefit "chance on crit" based builds (more hits = more chances to crit).

But straight up damage?  You are just factually wrong if you think it can compete with Hundred Blade.

I about laughed so hard after reading the first few lines aka numbers and his logic behind it.
First Ill fix your numbers- Greatsword with my power of 2350= 3776(x8) for HB
                                      - Axe/Axe with the same power= 2580(x15) for WA
What this means is the base hit of the Greatsword is 3776 8 times not including crit which comes to 30,208 granted after armor it will drop but im doing basic number multiplication. This means that with 8 hits of 3776 the combined total for the hit will be 30,208 dammage.
Now Axe/Axe is 2580( a lower number about 2/3 of great sword) hitting 15 times. This number comes out to be 38,700. Now for the sake of argument there will be the armor factor so given the same boss you would devide by the same number. Its simple mathmatics to say that 38,700 devided by the same number of 30,206 is still going to be higher so we wont bother with armor.
Next comes the option of 2 weapons vs 1 in stats. total power precision and crit dmg per wep as exotic is thus-
Axe= 90 power x2 64 precision x2  and 5% crit dmg x2 which in term is 180 power, 128 precision, 10% crit dmg with 2 slots for superior sigil of strength and/or 2 ruby orbs with 20 power 14 precision and 2 crit dmg a piece.
Greatsword= 179 power, 128 precision, 9 percent crit dmg. So by comparison you are short 1 power and 1 percent crit dmg with the greatsword not to mention an extra gem slot.

So based on the dmg output of the 2 abilitys being argued it is obvious to see that not only does the axe on the end scale of the attack do more dmg, it is a clear choice based on mobility.

As for my spec and stats I am revolving around these 2 setups 30/30/0/0/10 and 10/30/0/0/30. My stats per first spec are 2350 power 2150 precision with my crit chance at 82 percent (always due to ability to keep fury up with superior rune of rage or pack) with a 90 percent crit dmg. The power jumps to about 3000 due to my might stacks never dropping thanks to (Superior sigil of strength in my main hand) this sigil becomes even more viable with the second setup where I am at 2150 power( maintain around 2700+ with sigil easily) my precision stays the same as does my crit chance but I jump to 100 percent crit dmg ( thats 250 total witht he base 150) It would be higher but I have full Cof minus the legs and boots which are karma power, toughness, and vitality but will soon be replaced with power, precision, crit dmg.

[MrCats]

Ranger2021, on 07 December 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

I about laughed so hard after reading the first few lines aka numbers and his logic behind it.
First Ill fix your numbers- Greatsword with my power of 2350= 3776(x8) for HB
  - Axe/Axe with the same power= 2580(x15) for WA
What this means is the base hit of the Greatsword is 3776 8 times not including crit which comes to 30,208 granted after armor it will drop but im doing basic number multiplication. This means that with 8 hits of 3776 the combined total for the hit will be 30,208 dammage.
Now Axe/Axe is 2580( a lower number about 2/3 of great sword) hitting 15 times. This number comes out to be 38,700. Now for the sake of argument there will be the armor factor so given the same boss you would devide by the same number. Its simple mathmatics to say that 38,700 devided by the same number of 30,206 is still going to be higher so we wont bother with armor.
Next comes the option of 2 weapons vs 1 in stats. total power precision and crit dmg per wep as exotic is thus-
Axe= 90 power x2 64 precision x2  and 5% crit dmg x2 which in term is 180 power, 128 precision, 10% crit dmg with 2 slots for superior sigil of strength and/or 2 ruby orbs with 20 power 14 precision and 2 crit dmg a piece.
Greatsword= 179 power, 128 precision, 9 percent crit dmg. So by comparison you are short 1 power and 1 percent crit dmg with the greatsword not to mention an extra gem slot.

So based on the dmg output of the 2 abilitys being argued it is obvious to see that not only does the axe on the end scale of the attack do more dmg, it is a clear choice based on mobility.

As for my spec and stats I am revolving around these 2 setups 30/30/0/0/10 and 10/30/0/0/30. My stats per first spec are 2350 power 2150 precision with my crit chance at 82 percent (always due to ability to keep fury up with superior rune of rage or pack) with a 90 percent crit dmg. The power jumps to about 3000 due to my might stacks never dropping thanks to (Superior sigil of strength in my main hand) this sigil becomes even more viable with the second setup where I am at 2150 power( maintain around 2700+ with sigil easily) my precision stays the same as does my crit chance but I jump to 100 percent crit dmg ( thats 250 total witht he base 150) It would be higher but I have full Cof minus the legs and boots which are karma power, toughness, and vitality but will soon be replaced with power, precision, crit dmg.

You would be correct if whirling axe didn't have a 20 second cooldown. 100 blades only has a cooldown of 8 at it's max, meaning that i could get 2 of them off while whirling axe is on cooldown. If you trait into the greatsword you could do 3 in the same amount of time.

[Ranger2021]

MrCats, on 08 December 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

You would be correct if whirling axe didn't have a 20 second cooldown. 100 blades only has a cooldown of 8 at it's max, meaning that i could get 2 of them off while whirling axe is on cooldown. If you trait into the greatsword you could do 3 in the same amount of time.

True. I do agree with more uses for the greatsword, however, I guess I will have to go into more detail. The axe mainhand auto attack is the strongest auto attack of any wepon we can use. Mine in particular is always hitting 2.8k-3.6k while witht he great sword its not even on par with that. Now granted HB has a lower CD so we do a little more simple math. ok so every 6 seconds with the trait. So that is 30,200 x 3 = 90.6k with axes you have 38,700 with faster adrin built and evicerate that hits twice as hard as the great sword and mine are roughly between 12-15k, remember a GS build is about setting up HB with nothing but a prayer that the boss stands still.. ok so we have completed 2 HB at 60,400 at the same time you get one rotation in axes. Ill add 13000 because thats what i did including crits in between the 2 so you are at 69.4. with the setup on axes the is a rotation and yes duel strike is viable regardless of the furry proc. so we initialize with a CA hitting twice for 2.2-2.4k a piece then we duel strike for 2500 a hit so thats 2.2 x 2 and 2.5 x 2 thats 9.4k then you WA for 38.7k thats followed by a average of 13.5k evicerate. now you have gone through a total of 4.25-5 seconds out of 12 and you are at 61.6k behind GS who is at 73.4k. The difference is that I now have 6.75-7 seconds of free play left. in 6.75 seconds I can get 4 TC's off with a CA re-ap. Thats 2.8-3.6k x 2 x 4= on averaged numbers 25.6k and the Ca just hit 2k x2 for 4 k more thats 29.6k+61.6k=91.2k. Now I know these numbers are huge because im not deviding the armor. but percentile difference would stay the same due to deviding by the same armor value. 91.2k in 12 seconds opposed too 73.4k. Now I know what your going to say. there is still one more aoe left from HB in that 18 seconds (because you cant get a 4th in 20) so we tac on another 30.2 which gives the GS A romping total of 103.6k. add another 13k for in between thats 116.6k.tag 16 more k for the adrin finishers thats 132.6k total in the 18 seconds aloted. 132.6k>91.2 but wait. the axes still have 6 seconds which will be another 29.6k on top of another 13.5k evicerate thats 91.2+29.6+13.5= 134.3k. Now correct me if I am wrong but 134.3k> 132.6k correct? Now Im not bashing GS I think it is cool and fun don't get me wrong. But 1.7k adding up over a 5 min fight is roughly 1.7x3x5= a measly 25.5k difference over the span of a 5 min boss fight. Thats not enough to give two bleeps about. However, the mobility from the axes and not being rooted is what cause the scale to lean more in the axe favor. Sorry if that was confusing but my math is solid based on tests ran myself with same stats and all. Like I said I am not here to bash on people I just want to help with what I have experienced.

Edit: I gave each of them 2 adrin cds blown while in reality the A/A would get one more but it doesnt matter

Edited by Ranger2021, 08 December 2012 - 03:25 AM.

[Rachmani]

Ranger2021, on 07 December 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

I about laughed so hard after reading the first few lines aka numbers and his logic behind it.
First Ill fix your numbers- Greatsword with my power of 2350= 3776(x8) for HB
  - Axe/Axe with the same power= 2580(x15) for WA
What this means is the base hit of the Greatsword is 3776 8 times not including crit which comes to 30,208 granted after armor it will drop but im doing basic number multiplication. This means that with 8 hits of 3776 the combined total for the hit will be 30,208 dammage.
Now Axe/Axe is 2580( a lower number about 2/3 of great sword) hitting 15 times. This number comes out to be 38,700. Now for the sake of argument there will be the armor factor so given the same boss you would devide by the same number. Its simple mathmatics to say that 38,700 devided by the same number of 30,206 is still going to be higher so we wont bother with armor.
Next comes the option of 2 weapons vs 1 in stats. total power precision and crit dmg per wep as exotic is thus-
Axe= 90 power x2 64 precision x2  and 5% crit dmg x2 which in term is 180 power, 128 precision, 10% crit dmg with 2 slots for superior sigil of strength and/or 2 ruby orbs with 20 power 14 precision and 2 crit dmg a piece.
Greatsword= 179 power, 128 precision, 9 percent crit dmg. So by comparison you are short 1 power and 1 percent crit dmg with the greatsword not to mention an extra gem slot.

So based on the dmg output of the 2 abilitys being argued it is obvious to see that not only does the axe on the end scale of the attack do more dmg, it is a clear choice based on mobility.

As for my spec and stats I am revolving around these 2 setups 30/30/0/0/10 and 10/30/0/0/30. My stats per first spec are 2350 power 2150 precision with my crit chance at 82 percent (always due to ability to keep fury up with superior rune of rage or pack) with a 90 percent crit dmg. The power jumps to about 3000 due to my might stacks never dropping thanks to (Superior sigil of strength in my main hand) this sigil becomes even more viable with the second setup where I am at 2150 power( maintain around 2700+ with sigil easily) my precision stays the same as does my crit chance but I jump to 100 percent crit dmg ( thats 250 total witht he base 150) It would be higher but I have full Cof minus the legs and boots which are karma power, toughness, and vitality but will soon be replaced with power, precision, crit dmg.

Where do you get those numbers from? 1867 vs 3776 is total, not per hit. Same goes for your specific statement.
Also please factor in time. Axe auto attack hits hard, but Auto attack 3 takes 1.25 seconds to land.

[Ranger2021]

Rachmani, on 08 December 2012 - 04:16 AM, said:

Where do you get those numbers from? 1867 vs 3776 is total, not per hit. Same goes for your specific statement.
Also please factor in time. Axe auto attack hits hard, but Auto attack 3 takes 1.25 seconds to land.

Like I said I am not here to be rude to anyone. First off I have no idea where you are comming up with 1867. I have the same 3776 as you but the axes is about 750ish off. And yes research it it is per hit hence the 3776(x8) on the skill info. Dont believe me? look it up. You hit 8 times for a base of 3778 with a subtraction due to armor. This is where crit damage is vital. Crit damage is the base multiplied by a base 1.5 pluss whatever youve added too it. so when you crit the initial hit is mitigated , however, the extra dmg fromt he crit bypasses the armor. Again look it up its all over guru on how damage works. Just a simple math problem to prove you wrong. If 3776 was total that would mean that after 8 hits you totaled 3776. now if you crit that with lets say for GS 60 crit dmg thats 210 or 2.1. that means the end result would be 3776/armor+ a armor bypass of 4153.6 dmg. so the total hit would be under 8k and thats without mitigating the original 3776 due to armor. so in simple form it looks like this 3776 x 2.1= 7929.6 and thats with no armor mitigation. so what the game does is take the initial hit and devide in the armor, if it crits it takes that number multiplies it by the crit dmg and the crit dmg bypasses armor so just throwing bs numbers around to show how that works. you take 3776 and take away ehh 1000 just a basic number for armor. so your hit is now 2776. now the move was a crit. So it takes that number after mitigation aka 2776 and then multiplies it by 2.1 (saying you have 60 crit dmg that puts the base 150 and takes it to 210) So now we have 2776.2.1= 5829.6. this is how you get mitigated and then apply crit dmg. But you say its the total hit but I have never seen my WA or HB end up at 5k... the reason? because it hits 8 times. the armor reduction is way more than what i used. the number I used was just to show how it worked. so now what happens is you do that for each 8 hits and you come up with the end dmg. If you honestly think that 3776 is the final dmg of the atk at its base then that means 3776 even without armor reduction and it crits would only hit for 7.9k have you ever seen a geared 80 hit that low with a HB? Thus proves my math on the basis of how the stats work. This then applies to WA as my second post showed. it was a lower number. The number was only 2540 but it hits 15 times so you have 7 more chances to get a crit with extra dmg.
Also to correct you. The final chop on auto attack does not take 1.25 seconds to land thats the total time for the 3 attacks. grab you a stop watch and see.again about time look at my second post

[MrCats]

Ranger2021, on 08 December 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

Like I said I am not here to be rude to anyone. First off I have no idea where you are comming up with 1867. I have the same 3776 as you but the axes is about 750ish off. And yes research it it is per hit hence the 3776(x8) on the skill info. Dont believe me? look it up. You hit 8 times for a base of 3778 with a subtraction due to armor. This is where crit damage is vital. Crit damage is the base multiplied by a base 1.5 pluss whatever youve added too it. so when you crit the initial hit is mitigated , however, the extra dmg fromt he crit bypasses the armor. Again look it up its all over guru on how damage works. Just a simple math problem to prove you wrong. If 3776 was total that would mean that after 8 hits you totaled 3776. now if you crit that with lets say for GS 60 crit dmg thats 210 or 2.1. that means the end result would be 3776/armor+ a armor bypass of 4153.6 dmg. so the total hit would be under 8k and thats without mitigating the original 3776 due to armor. so in simple form it looks like this 3776 x 2.1= 7929.6 and thats with no armor mitigation. so what the game does is take the initial hit and devide in the armor, if it crits it takes that number multiplies it by the crit dmg and the crit dmg bypasses armor so just throwing bs numbers around to show how that works. you take 3776 and take away ehh 1000 just a basic number for armor. so your hit is now 2776. now the move was a crit. So it takes that number after mitigation aka 2776 and then multiplies it by 2.1 (saying you have 60 crit dmg that puts the base 150 and takes it to 210) So now we have 2776.2.1= 5829.6. this is how you get mitigated and then apply crit dmg. But you say its the total hit but I have never seen my WA or HB end up at 5k... the reason? because it hits 8 times. the armor reduction is way more than what i used. the number I used was just to show how it worked. so now what happens is you do that for each 8 hits and you come up with the end dmg. If you honestly think that 3776 is the final dmg of the atk at its base then that means 3776 even without armor reduction and it crits would only hit for 7.9k have you ever seen a geared 80 hit that low with a HB? Thus proves my math on the basis of how the stats work. This then applies to WA as my second post showed. it was a lower number. The number was only 2540 but it hits 15 times so you have 7 more chances to get a crit with extra dmg.
Also to correct you. The final chop on auto attack does not take 1.25 seconds to land thats the total time for the 3 attacks. grab you a stop watch and see.again about time look at my second post

What is your gear?

[Ranger2021]

MrCats, on 08 December 2012 - 05:35 AM, said:

What is your gear?

all cof except my legs and feet are karma pieces with power toughness and vitality.but all pieces are exotic

[MrCats]

Ranger2021, on 08 December 2012 - 05:49 AM, said:

all cof except my legs and feet are karma pieces with power toughness and vitality.but all pieces are exotic

So it's like the Knights set?

What about the accessories and the weapon? I'm guessing berserker?

[Xsiriss]

Axe/Mace can provide vulnerability, mobility (when traited axe auto attack deals the same damage as HB -the last hit bonus) and CC. Only reason you'd use GS is for the open world spam and movement skills. And the only reason you should use dual axe is for tagging a lot mobs.

[Pyrovore]

First of all, I'm here because I am looking for an alternative to the GS. But I may end up defending it ;-)

I levelled with dual axe but the thing that makes me come back to the GS time and time again is the Forceful Greatsword trait. The stack of might on crit, combined with perma-fury, is the one thing that pulls it over the edge beyond comparable to far superior. I don't know how you guys featured that into the math you did, but I basically self-apply something along the lines of 15-25 stacks of might once I'm well into a fight. 8 of those are from FGJ and the Signet of Rage of course, but at least another 8-10 stacks are up due to GS crits. All the time. Less useful if you have long times in between fights (when running from mob to mob, or in WvW) but amazing on bosses, especially stationary ones that 100B hits all the time.

If you have a crit chance of, say, 66% (which isn't hard to get even if you're not a glass cannon, assuming knights gear and fury uptime), you will get 2 or 3 stacks from each 100b. With the +30% boon duration from tactics and an additional 35-50% boon duration from runes (water, monk, hoelbrak or fire) you stretch the duration of these stacks to, say, 8-9 seconds. Cooldown on HB is 6.5 seconds and in between you whirl as well. You basically rack them up faster than they decay and push yourself to 20-25 stacks of might. This is the core mechanic at the heart of Brand's "Sonic Boon" build that I have found hard to beat with anything else so far.

If there'd be a "Forceful Axe" trait that would give me the same +might on crit as the GS has, it'd be a no-brainer since I'm bored with spamming the same cookie-cutter self-rooting 100B ability all the time. I actually wish the devs would pull that ability off the GS and makes it generic across all weapons that crit. But until then, all those godly stacks of might and the big crits keep dragging me back to the GS. Rationally speaking I know the 100B sums up the damage of all the eight hits, but even then, 18k damage over 3.5 seconds is, well, awesome. And you don't lose much time in between 100B cooldowns if you whirl through the mob+throw sword+rush back.

I may change to axe/warhorn or sword/axe or whatever just because GS is getting boring and I could use a change. But I do so knowing that I'll miss the synergy that it gives and that I will regret not having 20+ stacks of self-applied might anymore.

[MrCats]

Pyrovore, on 08 December 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

Rationally speaking I know the 100B sums up the damage of all the eight hits, but even then, 18k damage over 3.5 seconds is, well, awesome.

Could you post the gear that you are using please? It's very hard to gauge damage when it isn't listed. I could run a full berserker set and record damage and it isn't very helpful to thoose who do not use the set. Is this with 25 stacks of might? How much vulnerability applied? Was it with bleeding? That would clear some things up.

Edited by MrCats, 08 December 2012 - 08:20 PM.

[Ranger2021]

Pyrovore, on 08 December 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

First of all, I'm here because I am looking for an alternative to the GS. But I may end up defending it ;-)

I levelled with dual axe but the thing that makes me come back to the GS time and time again is the Forceful Greatsword trait. The stack of might on crit, combined with perma-fury, is the one thing that pulls it over the edge beyond comparable to far superior. I don't know how you guys featured that into the math you did, but I basically self-apply something along the lines of 15-25 stacks of might once I'm well into a fight. 8 of those are from FGJ and the Signet of Rage of course, but at least another 8-10 stacks are up due to GS crits. All the time. Less useful if you have long times in between fights (when running from mob to mob, or in WvW) but amazing on bosses, especially stationary ones that 100B hits all the time.

If you have a crit chance of, say, 66% (which isn't hard to get even if you're not a glass cannon, assuming knights gear and fury uptime), you will get 2 or 3 stacks from each 100b. With the +30% boon duration from tactics and an additional 35-50% boon duration from runes (water, monk, hoelbrak or fire) you stretch the duration of these stacks to, say, 8-9 seconds. Cooldown on HB is 6.5 seconds and in between you whirl as well. You basically rack them up faster than they decay and push yourself to 20-25 stacks of might. This is the core mechanic at the heart of Brand's "Sonic Boon" build that I have found hard to beat with anything else so far.

If there'd be a "Forceful Axe" trait that would give me the same +might on crit as the GS has, it'd be a no-brainer since I'm bored with spamming the same cookie-cutter self-rooting 100B ability all the time. I actually wish the devs would pull that ability off the GS and makes it generic across all weapons that crit. But until then, all those godly stacks of might and the big crits keep dragging me back to the GS. Rationally speaking I know the 100B sums up the damage of all the eight hits, but even then, 18k damage over 3.5 seconds is, well, awesome. And you don't lose much time in between 100B cooldowns if you whirl through the mob+throw sword+rush back.

I may change to axe/warhorn or sword/axe or whatever just because GS is getting boring and I could use a change. But I do so knowing that I'll miss the synergy that it gives and that I will regret not having 20+ stacks of self-applied might anymore.

You make a valid argument sir/ mam, the problem is you don't pay attention. That trait is a heck of a trait until you look at the possibility of the Duel axes. Not only do the 2 axes combined have more stats but an extra gem slot as well. This means I throw in superior sigil of strength and now I am doing what your doing with a trait AND I still have an open gem slot for 20 more power 14 precision and 2 percent crit dmg AND another trait which all that saving and combinding makes forceful greatsword not so great.

And Hi again Mr Cats umm to answer your question I am not familiar with terms in GW2 yet so I will do my best to answer for you.
All my gear is exotic with power>precision>critical dmg except the leg and pants which are power toughness and vitality. both weapons are exotic with power>precision>crit dmg with the main hand having superior sigil of strength and the other a ruby orb

Edited by Ranger2021, 08 December 2012 - 08:36 PM.

[MrCats]

Ranger2021, on 08 December 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

And Hi again Mr Cats umm to answer your question I am not familiar with terms in GW2 yet so I will do my best to answer for you.
All my gear is exotic with power>precision>critical dmg except the leg and pants which are power toughness and vitality. both weapons are exotic with power>precision>crit dmg with the main hand having superior sigil of strength and the other a ruby orb

Thank you very much

Power, precision and crit damage is berserker gear. Power, toughness and vit is carrion i believe.

[Ranger2021]

MrCats, on 08 December 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

Thank you very much

Power, precision and crit damage is berserker gear. Power, toughness and vit is carrion i believe.

Roger that thanks very much for the breakdown

[ObscureThreat]

MrCats, on 08 December 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

Thank you very much

Power, precision and crit damage is berserker gear. Power, toughness and vit is carrion i believe.

Pow/Tough/Vit is actually called soldiers. Carrion is Pow/CondDmg/Vit.

[MrCats]

ObscureThreat, on 09 December 2012 - 03:45 AM, said:

Pow/Tough/Vit is actually called soldiers. Carrion is Pow/CondDmg/Vit.

Thank you for picking up my slack. It's rare for me to go outside knight's.

[ObscureThreat]

MrCats, on 09 December 2012 - 04:22 AM, said:

Thank you for picking up my slack. It's rare for me to go outside knight's.

No problem, as for the topic, axe/axe is probably not the best combination anyways. I think axe mainhand combined with mace offhand is better overall. While its a properly specced gs build will always outdps most other builds, the true strength in axe/x is utility.

[Ranger2021]

ObscureThreat, on 09 December 2012 - 04:45 AM, said:

No problem, as for the topic, axe/axe is probably not the best combination anyways. I think axe mainhand combined with mace offhand is better overall. While its a properly specced gs build will always outdps most other builds, the true strength in axe/x is utility.

Although I value input the numbers show axe/axe being a bigger output but by very little

[Brand]

Ranger2021, on 08 December 2012 - 03:22 AM, said:

True. I do agree with more uses for the greatsword, however, I guess I will have to go into more detail. The axe mainhand auto attack is the strongest auto attack of any wepon we can use. Mine in particular is always hitting 2.8k-3.6k while witht he great sword its not even on par with that. Now granted HB has a lower CD so we do a little more simple math. ok so every 6 seconds with the trait. So that is 30,200 x 3 = 90.6k with axes you have 38,700 with faster adrin built and evicerate that hits twice as hard as the great sword and mine are roughly between 12-15k, remember a GS build is about setting up HB with nothing but a prayer that the boss stands still.. ok so we have completed 2 HB at 60,400 at the same time you get one rotation in axes. Ill add 13000 because thats what i did including crits in between the 2 so you are at 69.4. with the setup on axes the is a rotation and yes duel strike is viable regardless of the furry proc. so we initialize with a CA hitting twice for 2.2-2.4k a piece then we duel strike for 2500 a hit so thats 2.2 x 2 and 2.5 x 2 thats 9.4k then you WA for 38.7k thats followed by a average of 13.5k evicerate. now you have gone through a total of 4.25-5 seconds out of 12 and you are at 61.6k behind GS who is at 73.4k. The difference is that I now have 6.75-7 seconds of free play left. in 6.75 seconds I can get 4 TC's off with a CA re-ap. Thats 2.8-3.6k x 2 x 4= on averaged numbers 25.6k and the Ca just hit 2k x2 for 4 k more thats 29.6k+61.6k=91.2k. Now I know these numbers are huge because im not deviding the armor. but percentile difference would stay the same due to deviding by the same armor value. 91.2k in 12 seconds opposed too 73.4k. Now I know what your going to say. there is still one more aoe left from HB in that 18 seconds (because you cant get a 4th in 20) so we tac on another 30.2 which gives the GS A romping total of 103.6k. add another 13k for in between thats 116.6k.tag 16 more k for the adrin finishers thats 132.6k total in the 18 seconds aloted. 132.6k>91.2 but wait. the axes still have 6 seconds which will be another 29.6k on top of another 13.5k evicerate thats 91.2+29.6+13.5= 134.3k. Now correct me if I am wrong but 134.3k> 132.6k correct? Now Im not bashing GS I think it is cool and fun don't get me wrong. But 1.7k adding up over a 5 min fight is roughly 1.7x3x5= a measly 25.5k difference over the span of a 5 min boss fight. Thats not enough to give two bleeps about. However, the mobility from the axes and not being rooted is what cause the scale to lean more in the axe favor. Sorry if that was confusing but my math is solid based on tests ran myself with same stats and all. Like I said I am not here to bash on people I just want to help with what I have experienced.

Edit: I gave each of them 2 adrin cds blown while in reality the A/A would get one more but it doesnt matter

You seem to have totally removed WW Attack, Rush, and Bladetrail from your math. Why do you get to use almost all of your skills and GS only gets 100B and Autoattack? You also didn't factor in the Vulnerability from the GS, and you applied traits to the Axe but not the GS. How is this math fair in any way?

Do more tests, this time with no gear on, no traits, no skills. Just the weapons. Tell me how it goes.

Pyrovore, on 08 December 2012 - 07:56 PM, said:

but at least another 8-10 stacks are up due to GS crits. All the time.

Obviously on your side here, but it's more like 7 I think, constantly attacking. FGJ gives you 6 stacks of Might with Sonic Boon, however.

Ranger2021, on 08 December 2012 - 08:36 PM, said:

You make a valid argument sir/ mam, the problem is you don't pay attention. That trait is a heck of a trait until you look at the possibility of the Duel axes. Not only do the 2 axes combined have more stats but an extra gem slot as well. This means I throw in superior sigil of strength and now I am doing what your doing with a trait AND I still have an open gem slot for 20 more power 14 precision and 2 percent crit dmg AND another trait which all that saving and combinding makes forceful greatsword not so great.

Haha, look at the tooltip again please. Forceful Greatsword procs Might on EACH AND EVERY crit, not 33% of crits like Sigil of Sup Strength. You also seem to forget that we can use a Strength sigil as well, and that different runes/sigils do different things for different builds. For instance, a Sigil of Sup Flame would probably do much more for an Axe build, thus filling up your "on crit" sigil slot.

[zoofman]

I'd have to agree if you're gonna use an axe, mace offhand is feeling a lot more useful to me at the moment.  Which is unfortionate, because I do like the axe 4 and 5 a lot.  Mace 4 and 5 are just way more useful in most situations.

That said, I'm more interested in how to get the most damage and utility out of these trait paths as you can.  I think the axe/mace 20/0/0/20/30 build is about as good as it gets for axe/axe as well, the question is what the heck can you do to say, take Sonic Boom and make it more offensive? I currently am running with 20/30/0/20/0, and feeling I could be doing something better here but it's not entirely obvious to me at the moment what that is.

I'm past the point of having to rely on the shout heals, I guess, and want to get the most I can offensively from traits.

[chullster]

zoofman, on 10 December 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

I'm past the point of having to rely on the shout heals, I guess, and want to get the most I can offensively from traits.

I agree, shouts are fun when you've just hit 80, but you start to realize how poor they perform when you try other stuff. When you use a shout build you're not a healer, a buffer or DPS; you're just mediocrity.

Unless you have your own named build you wish to push and name-drop every post you make in every thread you see..........don't know anyone like that on this forum...honest guv!

[zoofman]

I see it more as shout heals are a great tool when learning things just as you hit 80 but once you get the hang of it you can afford to lax it up for more facestomp. Swap out iron lungs for inspiring banners and on my mark for a banner, be more intelligent about use of adrenalin and shake it off, realize healing signet is awesome, ECT. The question is hoe do you go about maximizing things with the sword, cause its less covered than moaraxes.  Your sonic boom builds prevalence, funny enough, stifles the conversation on the application of a more offensive great sword alternative. Not to say boon duration ain't useful, I sure as hell love tactics for that, but I wish I could back away from that and look at alternatives.

[GSSB Lunaspike]

Ranger2021, on 07 December 2012 - 11:42 PM, said:

I about laughed so hard after reading the first few lines aka numbers and his logic behind it.
First Ill fix your numbers- Greatsword with my power of 2350= 3776(x8) for HB
  - Axe/Axe with the same power= 2580(x15) for WA
What this means is the base hit of the Greatsword is 3776 8 times not including crit which comes to 30,208 granted after armor it will drop but im doing basic number multiplication. This means that with 8 hits of 3776 the combined total for the hit will be 30,208 dammage.
Now Axe/Axe is 2580( a lower number about 2/3 of great sword) hitting 15 times. This number comes out to be 38,700. Now for the sake of argument there will be the armor factor so given the same boss you would devide by the same number. Its simple mathmatics to say that 38,700 devided by the same number of 30,206 is still going to be higher so we wont bother with armor.
Next comes the option of 2 weapons vs 1 in stats. total power precision and crit dmg per wep as exotic is thus-
Axe= 90 power x2 64 precision x2  and 5% crit dmg x2 which in term is 180 power, 128 precision, 10% crit dmg with 2 slots for superior sigil of strength and/or 2 ruby orbs with 20 power 14 precision and 2 crit dmg a piece.
Greatsword= 179 power, 128 precision, 9 percent crit dmg. So by comparison you are short 1 power and 1 percent crit dmg with the greatsword not to mention an extra gem slot.

So based on the dmg output of the 2 abilitys being argued it is obvious to see that not only does the axe on the end scale of the attack do more dmg, it is a clear choice based on mobility.

As for my spec and stats I am revolving around these 2 setups 30/30/0/0/10 and 10/30/0/0/30. My stats per first spec are 2350 power 2150 precision with my crit chance at 82 percent (always due to ability to keep fury up with superior rune of rage or pack) with a 90 percent crit dmg. The power jumps to about 3000 due to my might stacks never dropping thanks to (Superior sigil of strength in my main hand) this sigil becomes even more viable with the second setup where I am at 2150 power( maintain around 2700+ with sigil easily) my precision stays the same as does my crit chance but I jump to 100 percent crit dmg ( thats 250 total witht he base 150) It would be higher but I have full Cof minus the legs and boots which are karma power, toughness, and vitality but will soon be replaced with power, precision, crit dmg.

Please do not attempt to correct that which you have clearly demonstrated you do not understand. It's painfully obvious you have no clue what skill coefficients are, how they are calculated, or how they are relevant to the discussion.

I doubt the person you quoted is even still around. It seems that the  majority of the theory crafters have already abandoned GW2.

I can try to explain it to you in a very simple way, but I seriously doubt you even want to learn. I would suggest you take the time to read what that person was kind enough to post for you. Then read how damage is actually calculated.

In fact, I think an even better example for you.

Goto the mist, if you don't know how then ask someone I'm not in the mood to explain it, once there remove all of your armor/weapons and reset your traits. You should be sitting at the base 916 power. Now press H, and on the left hand side click the skills and traits. Now hover your mouse over the one that says "Hundred Blades". This can be found under the section titled Greatsword. Now take that number that it shows (hint it's probably 1072). Now check your power again. Now goto your traits, and add 10 points into strength. That will give you 100 power. Now go back and check the tooltip again for Hundred Blades. See the increase in damage. Now if you continue to do this, by adding in anything except a weapon (I would explain why but the first guy did and you didn't have the curteosy to even read what he took the time to explain) you will continue to see something strange. It goes up by a set amount of damage per amount of power.

I think I will have to post pictures explaining it.

Edit:

If you do this you will notice that HB gets more damage per point of power increased averaging out to 1.17, while WA gets .795

Edited by GSSB Lunaspike, 10 December 2012 - 05:08 PM.

[Brand]

Ok, sorry about earlier, got cut off while typing.

First of all, the shouts aren't just for you, they are for your whole group. Also, at this point Sonic Boon gives you very significant dps for the amount taken out of flat damaging traits. You could get marginally more damage by going with a cookie cutter GS build (Something like 20/30/0/10/10) but the amount you take out of Boon duration and healing is significant. We proved in the comments on page 3 (Of Sonic Boon) that the added boon duration increases allies damage by near 15-20%, which is only a tad bit less damage then you get with the cookie cutter build. Add in the heals and wow, you do good support and overall you lose practically no dps. Sure some of it is on other teammates, but hey, it's called a team for a reason.

chullster, on 10 December 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

I agree, shouts are fun when you've just hit 80, but you start to realize how poor they perform when you try other stuff. When you use a shout build you're not a healer, a buffer or DPS; you're just mediocrity.

Unless you have your own named build you wish to push and name-drop every post you make in every thread you see..........don't know anyone like that on this forum...honest guv!

See above, you lose practically nothing for all that you gain, if that's mediocrity then I don't want to be optimal.

As for your second comment, I am increasingly astounded by the amount of people who seem to have no idea what they are talking about. Zoofman mentioned my build in this thread, I was simply responding to him. Am I just supposed to totally ignore the comment about my build? Of all the people that have builds in this forum that are specific named builds (Red_Falcon, MrCats, Myself, maybe Strife) only 2 of them are really active (Myself, MrCats). As such, we post on threads, sometimes those posts require us to detail or "Advertise" our build some, for clarity and to get the point across. MrCats actually says that his build is very good a lot of the time in threads having nothing to do with it, but apparently people notice me more because I call mine a catchy name (MrCats did not name his until recently). I've posted on several threads exclaiming the baffling conundrum that is you people calling me out for being active on the forums. Look through my content, any time I ever mention Sonic Boon is when the thread or a poster in the thread asked a question or wanted information about a Greatsword build such as Sonic Boon.Sometimes I use it to make a point, or talk about it when another user has mentioned it in a recent post (See Pyrovore above). Every mention is significant to the discussion at hand, except for one. That one is on Strife's thread (My first comment there I think), and even that was partially warranted due to him bashing the GS so hard in his OP.

Stop being rude and ignorant, it's an unpleasant combination.

Edited by Brand, 10 December 2012 - 08:38 PM.

[Rohkstorm]

In the course of this thread, all I see are theoretical 'target dummy' numbers. Are people actually choosing weapons based solely on this? In PvP, I can hardly contain my laughter when warriors run up to me, regardless of which alt I'm playing, and using 100b. Except for the very few good players who know when and how to use 100b, it's basically a bigass sign saying 'I have a death wish! I'm a free kill!'. I have to say though, the warrriors who do know how to properly use a GS beyond mindless NPC bashing; it's a thing of beauty.

Granted, I've always found theorycrafted to be virtually useless anyhow. It fails to take into account just too many variables. Like WA being a 360 degree and mobile AoE attack while 100b is a cone attack that roots you. Or the differences between builds. Or the fact that one might use a certain weapon for utility/support over raw damage. Or the fact that an A/A setup has 4 combo finishers instead of just 2. Or... well, you get my point.

Raw numbers mean exactly diddly squat and only serves to perpetuate the myth that the GS should be the go-to weapon for every warrior. Yes, it is a strong weapon. Nobody can deny nor disprove that. But saying that it's 'better' purely on the basis of the 100b damage output, as has been stated by multiple people in this thread, is just pure bogus.

Personally, I enjoy both the GS (with a slight personal variation on Brand's Sonic Boom build) for group play and my A/A set-up (with a personal build) for solo play. Both have positive and negative aspects depending on what, how and when you use them.

[Brand]

Rohkstorm, on 10 December 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

In the course of this thread, all I see are theoretical 'target dummy' numbers. Are people actually choosing weapons based solely on this? In PvP, I can hardly contain my laughter when warriors run up to me, regardless of which alt I'm playing, and using 100b. Except for the very few good players who know when and how to use 100b, it's basically a bigass sign saying 'I have a death wish! I'm a free kill!'. I have to say though, the warrriors who do know how to properly use a GS beyond mindless NPC bashing; it's a thing of beauty.

Granted, I've always found theorycrafted to be virtually useless anyhow. It fails to take into account just too many variables. Like WA being a 360 degree and mobile AoE attack while 100b is a cone attack that roots you. Or the differences between builds. Or the fact that one might use a certain weapon for utility/support over raw damage. Or the fact that an A/A setup has 4 combo finishers instead of just 2. Or... well, you get my point.

Raw numbers mean exactly diddly squat and only serves to perpetuate the myth that the GS should be the go-to weapon for every warrior. Yes, it is a strong weapon. Nobody can deny nor disprove that. But saying that it's 'better' purely on the basis of the 100b damage output, as has been stated by multiple people in this thread, is just pure bogus.

Personally, I enjoy both the GS (with a slight personal variation on Brand's Sonic Boom build) for group play and my A/A set-up (with a personal build) for solo play. Both have positive and negative aspects depending on what, how and when you use them.

This ^^^^^^^^^^^
Though the current discussion was just about 100B flat damage output versus WA flat damage output, I bleev. THey were just talking numbers, not usefulness, etc.

Also please guys T^T It's Sonic Boon, the N is not a typo D: It is a play on the word Sonic Boom though (Obviously).

[Rohkstorm]

Brand, on 10 December 2012 - 09:06 PM, said:

Also please guys T^T It's Sonic Boon, the N is not a typo D: It is a play on the word Sonic Boom though (Obviously).

Oops... I knew that...

Quote

Though the current discussion was just about 100B flat damage output versus WA flat damage output, I bleev. THey were just talking numbers, not usefulness, etc.

I understand, but I just find the whole discussion a bit pointless. Especially with people claiming one weapon is better than the other solely based on those numbers.

[MrCats]

Rohkstorm, on 11 December 2012 - 06:41 AM, said:

Oops... I knew that...

I understand, but I just find the whole discussion a bit pointless. Especially with people claiming one weapon is better than the other solely based on those numbers.

It's what's expected in theese type of threads to be honest. People from camp A vs people from camp B.

Brand, on 10 December 2012 - 08:37 PM, said:

Of all the people that have builds in this forum that are specific named builds (Red_Falcon, MrCats, Myself, maybe Strife) only 2 of them are really active (Myself, MrCats). As such, we post on threads, sometimes those posts require us to detail or "Advertise" our build some, for clarity and to get the point across. MrCats actually says that his build is very good a lot of the time in threads having nothing to do with it, but apparently people notice me more because I call mine a catchy name (MrCats did not name his until recently).

I don't believe i name the build everytime i post when i do mention it. I think the main one was the for the thread about the warrior/ele combo but other than that i rarely throw out my build in other posts. I may mention the sword and crits but that's about it. But yes, i've been more active theese days, been on the forum more than playing recently. Can't really be bothered to farm money.

[chullster]

No Brand, I notice you more as you have an annoying habit of spamming threads more, simple.

Why would I even remember you if I didn't keep seeing your spam in so many warrior threads?

Stop being annoying and insulting.