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What's the point of extended leveling for PvE


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#1 Winterclaw

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 12:02 AM

Okay from what I've gathered about levels in GW2 I can say two things:
1. Everyone will be evenly level in PvP so levels don't matter here.
2. There will be about a bazillion levels for PvE.

GW had it right after Proph.  You do a few key quests, you move on to the next mission, and repeat until the last mission,

So why screw around with a system that's working?

Is it to keep people from finishing the game in one or two days?  Who cares if someone blows through the game in a day?  I don't, I plod along at my own pace and am happy with it.  So why force me to plod along even more because Mr. QQ had to run through the game at full speed and then cried that the game was over?  To me the problem is Mr. QQ.  GW works for most people so this doesn't seem to be enough to change things.

Some people propose that desipte there being half a million levels the levels don't really matter because the game is still at the same pace as the old ones.

Well if that's the case why bother taking the time and resources to add the extra levelsand balance not only them but the mobs for that area as well?  In GW after a point you only had to balance the mobs against one level of player: level 20.  So with factions and NF it was pretty easy to make sure the game was properly balance for the level that everyone was at.

You could say it was because there are grindaholics and they need their grind.  GW1 was supposed to be the ungrind-game (which Anet forgot).  It worked perfectly well without grind.  You quested, you did missions, and you moved on until the end without having to worry about your level.  Yet despite being good enough to sell millions of games, Anet wanted to make the game worse.

Can anyone help me understand why?

#2 Mr. Undisclosed

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 12:04 AM

I don't think they've confirmed their ideas of leveling yet...

#3 I pwnd U

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 12:06 AM

I have no idea why either. I was okay with raising the level cap but I was hoping for between 30 and 40 for the level cap. Not half a million levels. It almost feels like they are trying to match up with WoW and have a high level cap so people feel accomplished. I kind of want the level 20 cap back...

#4 Lihinel

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 12:08 AM

They have not said anything related to gamemechanics yet, and said they won't until next year.

Following that, the only information we had on leveling was from early 07, the planingstage in which they spoke of possibly unlimeted levels with a low attribute cap or no levels at all.

But yeah. after having played 3 chapters/expansions with max level characters, I see no reason for levels at all.
Just make some attribute quests early on in the tut and let that be it.

Edited by Lihinel, 29 August 2009 - 12:12 AM.


#5 Snow Bunny

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 12:11 AM

Just to give people something to do. Personally, I think a 40 level cap or something arbitrary would work fine. I think that it's more an endgame issue - the game should be completed at lvl 30 for example, while endgame might require 40...

#6 SoundW

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 12:16 AM

Quote

So why screw around with a system that's working?
So kids who can't afford WoW subscription won't whine that GW only has 20 levels.

#7 I pwnd U

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 12:17 AM

The kids will just whine about something else. That is how it works, you stop one complaint and open up a whole can of others.

#8 Falthron

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 12:17 AM

I think like many people htat leveling will hit a plateu at level 20 - 50. (50 is pushing it a bit)

This will lead to levels being ust showing off how much you grinded.

#9 Lihinel

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 12:20 AM

Again, they have not given any information about the levelcap, nor about any other gameplay element.

It would be completly stupid to set a non cosmetic high level cap when the whole world is open and every quest is public, as it would completly destroy replayability of all non max level public quests/events and therefore reduce the avaible endgame content drasticly.

#10 Shoyon456

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 12:28 AM

It does not really matter what the number is, as long as progression is quick. One thing that was very good about the other chapters was the small starter area so that one could spend essentially the whole game going though max level content with enemies getting better builds (and more imba monster skills) as you got farther.

This placed emphasis on the skill>time and allowed one to enjoy the highest level content if they could run certain builds.

Either they raise the level cap and raise the progression speed to accordingly, or raise it and force us to have level grind. The former makes raising the cap pointless except to make idiot players feel leet, cause "OMG NUB IM 20 LEVELS HIGHER THAN YOU." The latter would completely contradict skill>time.

So either way, its pretty unnecessary and so they must be going the WoWay.

#11 Orsa

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 12:41 AM

because leveling is often considered an achievement. it makes the game more interesting.

also Arenanet have said they are raising the level cap but not to the point that required grinding.

so you wont be forced to plod along at all, just do what you do now for longer.

#12 The Great Al

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 12:55 AM

What's the point of NOT having extended leveling? It's the reason that GW grew stale for me. Between the time I reached the end of prophecies, to, hundreds of hours later when I finished EOTN, my character did not get any stronger, except for a few new skills. It's nice having a sense of progression, being able to use new things, etc.

#13 Foeslayr

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 01:00 AM

I pwnd U said:

I have no idea why either. I was okay with raising the level cap but I was hoping for between 30 and 40 for the level cap. Not half a million levels. It almost feels like they are trying to match up with WoW and have a high level cap so people feel accomplished. I kind of want the level 20 cap back...

I definitely hope that the level cap doesn't affect missions and so forth.  What I mean by that is I can move through the storyline effectively without having to kill 50 charr shaman babies on the side.

#14 Shoyon456

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 01:01 AM

Because skill>time.

Your character should not grow more powerful just because you play more. Level is a quantative way of showing progression, but it is not an accurate indicator of skill, which it is almost ALWAYS used as when there is a large grind process.

Id rather not be told I can't raid or w/e WoW like features will be in GW2, because I haven't hit "max level" even if that level doesn't actually function for anything other than vanity. If it is more important than vanity, then it will be even worse. GLF lv 40,50,(whatever max level is) Norn Warrior ONLY! And the group discrimination just got worse.

Edited by Shoyon456, 29 August 2009 - 01:04 AM.


#15 ShadowedSin

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 01:09 AM

Level 20 was a fine cap and in many ways it made me happy to know that levels didn't matter in guild wars. It was what you did with your skill bar and how you played the game.

And seriously, I see the end game argument touted out every time an MMO comes out. A true end game is that there is an end, not some never ending pile of tiers and dungeons to continually conquer. The term itself is an oxymoron.

#16 Grunntar

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 01:13 AM

In an ideal (game) world, you would reach max level just as you complete the game.  The sense of progression and improvement continues the entire time that you are playing the game.  That's ideal.

The challenge I see that is that you can play less of the game (runners, etc.) to get to the end boss/final event much faster.  And, even after you beat the game, there's still stuff to do.  So when does it end?

I personally disliked the lack of progression past level 20, which in my first time, I hit in Prophecies somewhere in Maguuma Jungle.  It was quite anti-climactic.

Do I want to have to go another 50 levels after reaching the end of GW2?  No.  I think that it's better than "peaking" too soon, though, but I'll live with whatever they give me.  Especially since those extra levels are likely to mean nothing but some bright pixels on my monitor.

#17 ShadowedSin

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 01:15 AM

Perhaps that is the point, levels don't mean much in GW. They just mean you've reached your final amount minus a few questions of attributes. That's it. The story and what you can find afterwards is what matters in the game.

#18 ennui

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 01:23 AM

I last recall aNet still deciding whether there will be a level system at all or infinite (or high capped) levels.

In the case of no level system, GW2 will be basically the same as GW1 without the numbers.
In the case of infinite (or high) levels, GW2 will be basically the same as GW1 with the numbers.


It sounds to me like aNet is assessing the issue with the consideration that levels are just numbers.
What they do with the status and advancing system is what's going to really matter, regardless of whether or not they include leveling.

#19 slowerpoke

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 01:28 AM

The low level cap was problematic design wise in PvE.

While the monsters needed to increase in difficulty, the players always stayed the same. To try and counter that, they had to use things like pve skills and consumables to even the playing field.

Unfortunately those items and skills can be used in areas that weren't designed for them, and this resulted in power creep and balance issues.

There's also a sense of progression and accomplishment with gaining levels rather than simply skill points. i mean when you hit 20 XP is basically useless.

I do think its a good idea to have PvP on a fixed level.

Edited by slowerpoke, 29 August 2009 - 01:31 AM.


#20 Big Ol Norn

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 01:54 AM

I think it's going to be pointless anyway. Like imagine GW1 if your experience translated to levels after 20, but there was no effect of it other then saying what level you are. That's all I'm hearing that they're doing when they constantly say it doesn't matter that they're adding more levels.

Personally I would think they aren't balancing for higher levels either. There will still likely be a low ceiling for PVE monsters, because that makes WAY more sense than splintering the playerbase tons. Maybe it will even be like Factions and NF where you immediately train up to that ceiling in the starter area, then the whole world is basically open.

#21 pumpkin pie

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 02:04 AM

Its a living world, living world does not stop.

#22 slowerpoke

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 02:11 AM

They don't need to make monsters a specific level, they could be relative to the players. Say x levels more (less/same), depending on the difficulty of the area. That way certain foes will always be challenging, but the difficulty increases only as the player advances. It wont matter what the players level is.

Edited by slowerpoke, 29 August 2009 - 02:16 AM.


#23 Big Ol Norn

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 02:16 AM

Oh I really hope there's no auto-leveling monsters. At least not like the kind that just turn their HP into a million like Oblivion.

#24 The Dream of Dreams

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 02:17 AM

I don't understand why people insist that the game begins when your character hits max level...

Why must there be 10-30 "Elite" dungeons and zones explicitly for max level characters?  

The only reason I want a high level cap is for more content.  Everyone cry's and moans about the lack of new content in OGW atm.  If there is a level 100 cap all this means is that guild wars 2 can continue at a nice pace but be 5 times longer or have 5 times as much content if you will.  Why must everyone feel the need to max out their level before they enjoy high end areas?

My main character hit level 20 about 2 weeks after I purchased guild wars and I still play the character after 4 years.  What is the point of having 37,000,000 experience if you max your level at 140,000 xp?  

To the folks that say, "Ppl will be all... 'I AM LEVEL 1251 AND YOU ARE ONLY LEVEL 35! NOOB.'"  Are you serious?!?  Do these comments really hit home so easily that you become offended and bitter toward the game and its players?  Are you really so easily offended by immature players?  If so, I am sorry, but I hate the fact that I see no personal progression past week 2 of a game I have played for 4 years.

Now I am fine if max character power is met at say... 30 or 40, but we should at least be able to show our theoretical level past the power cap.  For example, maximum attributes achieved at level 40, no more HP or MP or w/e is given to the player, but as you grow in experience your level will still raise to a maximum of 1,000.  Some players will claim level segregation, but really?  I think some people need to stop caring so much about what people think and enjoy the game.

#25 ToastRedone

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 02:21 AM

I kind of liked the leveling in prophecies where you are at maximum level later in the game, than in factions or nightfall.  The problem I think is that hardcore gw fans are fine with it and want to keep it that way, but arenanet wants to have a greater fanbase. I know lots of people were dissapointed with GW1 and how it went only to 20. Hopefully there won't be an excess of grind. I don't think there will be.

#26 ShadowedSin

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 02:27 AM

The sounds like a what IMHO it should be.

A quick training and then split the PvE and PvP skill changes even. In general there is no need for high levels.

#27 turbo234

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 02:53 AM

so people can showoff their experience. to me raising the cap(even if it doesn't actually have an effect after so many levels) is just a way to show your epeen off.

#28 The Great Al

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 03:05 AM

Shoyon456 said:

Because skill>time.

Your character should not grow more powerful just because you play more. Level is a quantative way of showing progression, but it is not an accurate indicator of skill, which it is almost ALWAYS used as when there is a large grind process.

Id rather not be told I can't raid or w/e WoW like features will be in GW2, because I haven't hit "max level" even if that level doesn't actually function for anything other than vanity. If it is more important than vanity, then it will be even worse. GLF lv 40,50,(whatever max level is) Norn Warrior ONLY! And the group discrimination just got worse.

Except skill isn't greater than time, in GW1 PvE. There was so little 'skill' involved that you couldn't set yourself apart from anyone else.

#29 Craywulf

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 03:06 AM

PvE leveling is borne out some need to show progress of your character. I don't like it for sake of gameplay because it creates discrimination when looking for PUG.

I think there is a way to SHOW progression without having some numerical ranking. Why not just have titles  or badges for the things you do.

Some titles or badges would come with bonuses and the more elite titles/badges would have no bonuses at all, it would merely show your progression.

For example kill 500 of Centaur and you get "Hunter" title/badge. You kill 1000 of Centaur and you get a "Slayer" title/badge along with a minor buff in a particular zone. You could also kill 5000 of those Centaur and get "Destroyer" title/badge with no bonus, just a title that shows your elitism and the titles would continue to be cosmetically added the more xp (kills) you gain.  

Titles should go beyond the initial goal of receiving the bonus. The goals to meet the bonus requirements should be fairly reasonable a single player to obtain.

The biggest problem with the current title system is people are feeling the peaking point is when you max out a title. It shouldn't feel like that. The peaking point (bonus) should come right in the middle. Any other xp (kills) gain after that should go towards cosmetic titles that show off your vast experience with GW2.

Edited by Craywulf, 29 August 2009 - 03:10 AM.


#30 Tenicord

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Posted 29 August 2009 - 03:15 AM

They already said that there would either be no level cap or the cap would be over 100... I assume that leveling will have little to do with stats and more with attribute points or something... unless the go back on what they said. But it's in the mag that had the Guild Wars 2 preview back in the day. (I realize a lot can change since then though.)