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Six Elder Dragons not Five * Spoilers *


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#151 Valkaire

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 12:29 AM

View PostOrual Fox, on 06 November 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

I just saw this over on the official forums.


So apparently subject alpha in CoE explorable has a bunch of abilities that he can cast named after the elder dragons, such as “Teeth of Primordius,” “Tooth of Jormag,” and…………….“Teeth of Mordramoth.”
If that isn’t proof, then I don’t know what isPosted Image We can stop calling him bubbles now lol.

They were referring that Mordramoth was the real name of Bubbles, the DSD.  But others on the forum pointed out that this particular attack was an Earth-related attack, so that would seem uncharacteristic of a "water" dragon, so maybe the name of the 6th?  Or just a random name that Anet threw in?  I believe this was also traveling around on Reddit, but I figured I would bring it here, for those that don't populate either forum.

*Edit*  I just found the post where someone had already mentioned this.  Apologies.  Konig did on pg 2.  Shoulda known he knew already.  :P

I wanted to bring this up as well. Who knows though, maybe the 6th dragon is indeed a beneficial/friendly elder dragon and Mordramoth is a hint to there being more than six (which I believe Konig has also made a thread about).

#152 draxynnic

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 01:56 AM

Actually, it'd go the other way around - the 6th referred to in the Priory has been indicated to be hostile. If the Green Zone is associated with an elder dragon that's benign, it's a different sixth dragon. (thus making at least seven in total).
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#153 Lor Ryt

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 01:22 PM

View PostKonig Des Todes, on 07 October 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

I never once said that the destroyers are lifeless.

I have been arguing from the very beginning that they're made from corrupted lava and stone. That is to say, that Primordus "twists" lava and rock in order to make destroyers.

Other minions of the same kind of corruption (that is, not made from corrupting living beings) are:
The Shatterer (made from stone and lightning)
Claw of Jormag (made from ice - possibly bones, but ancient long dead with no flesh, and in turn, no soul or mind to them)
Deep sea dragon's minions (made from water)

"Corruption" does not require sentience to be done. The Dragonbrand is corrupted land, and Jormag twists ice. The destroyers are corrupted land. Risen are corrupted bodies which can imprison souls. Icebrood are mentally corrupted individuals whose bodies also become corrupted over time. Branded are individuals who were physically and mentally corrupted as well.

All of this is corruption.

I never once argued that destroyers weren't given life. I merely stated that they're corrupted rather than created in the same sense that sylvari are (which are not corruption, but rather birthed).

That is to say, by saying that destroyers are not created, I am saying that they are not made as a baby is. Rather, they are made in the same manner a robot is - taking other materials and directly altering them into another form that can be mobile. This is what I've been saying from the very damn beginning. But apparently you either never realized this, or you're too stubborn to realize that we've been in agreement except for your odd and false view that inanimate objects cannot be corrupted.

i did not read all of the thread, so please excuse me, if i repeat something already said... i see destroyer harpies, destroyer trolls, destroyer crablings, etc. etc. it seems to me, that these aren't created, they are, indeed, living creatures, which have been altered. risen, branded, destroyers ....

#154 Lordkrall

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 01:24 PM

View PostLor Ryt, on 08 November 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

i did not read all of the thread, so please excuse me, if i repeat something already said... i see destroyer harpies, destroyer trolls, destroyer crablings, etc. etc. it seems to me, that these aren't created, they are, indeed, living creatures, which have been altered. risen, branded, destroyers ....

I, for one, believe they are created in image of other creatures. A bit like the Sylvari imitates Humans.

#155 ArlanKels

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 04:29 PM

What if the sixth dragon is in Cantha?

I mean Glint..


*spoilers*


Was created  by one of the powerful dragons of doom.
There's a dragon who chills in Cantha and nobody really knows where he fits into these things...
Maybe he's an old lieutenant of the sixth dragon?

Edited by ArlanKels, 08 November 2012 - 04:30 PM.


#156 Valkaire

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 07:06 PM

View PostLor Ryt, on 08 November 2012 - 01:22 PM, said:

i did not read all of the thread, so please excuse me, if i repeat something already said... i see destroyer harpies, destroyer trolls, destroyer crablings, etc. etc. it seems to me, that these aren't created, they are, indeed, living creatures, which have been altered. risen, branded, destroyers ....

Those are created in the image of those monsters. We already know that destroyers are created from within lava because of cinematics in EotN. All of those branded and risen creatures still look like their counterparts.

Regular Harpy
Posted Image

Destroyer Harpy
Posted Image

As opposed to human vs branded human

Posted Image
Posted Image

You can see that with branded creatures, with their corruption crystals are growing out of their skin whereas with destroyer creatures, while some look similar (the destroyer troll looks nothing like a normal troll IMO) the bones or rock, whatever you want to call them, are all of the same material and have anatomical differences compared to their normal counterparts.

Edited by Valkaire, 08 November 2012 - 07:09 PM.


#157 Alexwentworth

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:06 AM

The name "destroyer harpy" is likely a name given to them by the races of Tyria, seeing as they look a bit like harpies. I don't think that implies in any way that they are imitations of harpies, but rather that the name came after the creation of the creature itself.

#158 Daenerys

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 03:52 AM

View PostArlanKels, on 08 November 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

What if the sixth dragon is in Cantha?

I mean Glint..

*spoilers*


Was created  by one of the powerful dragons of doom.
There's a dragon who chills in Cantha and nobody really knows where he fits into these things...
Maybe he's an old lieutenant of the sixth dragon?
I don't think champions of Elder Dragons can evolve into or become Elder Dragons. I think ED's are their own beings that formed independently.

The Canthan Dragon Theory (and all of its counterparts) and spinoffs has been around the block already. I don't think it's been fully disproved yet, but I could be wrong. The dragon you're talking about is Kuunavang. Tyrians haven't had contact with Cantha for 250 years, but I think there would've been something that the Canthans would've noticed when "we" still had contact with them. The theory is possible, though.

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#159 Visteri

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 05:49 AM

I have a couple things to add here.

First, Konig Des Todes, you said that the Elder Dragons don't eat. But we meet the Mouth of Zhaitan in the personal story, who consumes objects. The PC says that this must be how Zhaitan eats, the same way that the Eye of Zhaitan is how it sees. We end up killing the Mouth, thus cutting off its food supply.

Second:

View PostKonig Des Todes, on 26 October 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

At best, I would attribute this to that particular sylvari - and every single sylvari individual - having a subconscious tie to the Nightmare. But as I said, the Nightmare Court are as unlikely to be the "true sylvari" as those who follow Ventari's teachings (given that they're proactively doing the opposite of the teachings, rather than simply ignoring it like they should be doing if they were really wanting to be "true sylvari").
The NC don't believe that doing the opposite of Ventari's teachings is how true sylvari should act. They believe that acting that way will provide a counterbalance to the teachings of the Ventari Tablet within the Dream, thus canceling those teachings out and removing their influence from the Pale Tree. They think that this is what will cause the Pale Tree to become what she was always meant to be, since she'll now be free of the Tablet's influence and able to do what's in her nature, whatever that might be.

Finally, I have one possible solution to all the differences in behavior between sylvari and other dragon minions (apart from the influence of Ventari and Ronan): the sixth dragon is still asleep.

After all, Ronan took the seed from the cave by force, possibly before the sixth dragon was ready for it to be planted.

We don't know this for sure, but I think it gives a lot more wiggle room in how its champions and minions might behave.

#160 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 08:19 PM

The Elder Dragons don't eat flesh. They devour/consume/eat magic. I've said this from the get go. The Mouth of Zhaitan eats magical objects and sends the magic from said objects to Zhaitan - that's how Zhaitan personally feeds.

Please provide a source where they said acting opposite of the Ventari's teachings is just to counterbalance the teachings of the tablet. Because everything I've seen outside one recruit talking about balance and how the Nightmare Court seeks to do both sides of the coin (obviously lies) has been about them trying to "convince" (read: force) the Pale Tree to abandon the Ventari Tablet and go about doing what they do - that is, to make the Pale Tree want to torture and torment all life. Of course, all of this originates from Cadeyrn wanting to be special and be heard by the Pale Tree in how he himself disagrees with the tablet's teachings - he established the Nightmare Court in his beliefs of how the sylvari should act, and it has never once been shown to be a case of counter-acting the Ventari tablet, but rather has always been shown from what I've seen to be wanting all sylvari to act as they currently act.

I don't think the sixth Elder Dragon being asleep matters. Jormag was asleep when Drakkar corrupted Svanir into the Nornbear and he slaughtered innocents, and when Drakkar consumed magic from the Sons of Svanir to push Jormag's awakening. Primordus was asleep when the Great Destroyer awoke and brought forth killing everything in the depths. This is how Jormag and Primordus' minions act even after the Elder Dragons awoke. So there really isn't much change in how dragon minions act when the ED are asleep compared to when they're awake.

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#161 Visteri

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 09:40 PM

View PostKonig Des Todes, on 10 November 2012 - 08:19 PM, said:

The Elder Dragons don't eat flesh. They devour/consume/eat magic. I've said this from the get go. The Mouth of Zhaitan eats magical objects and sends the magic from said objects to Zhaitan - that's how Zhaitan personally feeds.

Please provide a source where they said acting opposite of the Ventari's teachings is just to counterbalance the teachings of the tablet. Because everything I've seen outside one recruit talking about balance and how the Nightmare Court seeks to do both sides of the coin (obviously lies) has been about them trying to "convince" (read: force) the Pale Tree to abandon the Ventari Tablet and go about doing what they do - that is, to make the Pale Tree want to torture and torment all life. Of course, all of this originates from Cadeyrn wanting to be special and be heard by the Pale Tree in how he himself disagrees with the tablet's teachings - he established the Nightmare Court in his beliefs of how the sylvari should act, and it has never once been shown to be a case of counter-acting the Ventari tablet, but rather has always been shown from what I've seen to be wanting all sylvari to act as they currently act.

I don't think the sixth Elder Dragon being asleep matters. Jormag was asleep when Drakkar corrupted Svanir into the Nornbear and he slaughtered innocents, and when Drakkar consumed magic from the Sons of Svanir to push Jormag's awakening. Primordus was asleep when the Great Destroyer awoke and brought forth killing everything in the depths. This is how Jormag and Primordus' minions act even after the Elder Dragons awoke. So there really isn't much change in how dragon minions act when the ED are asleep compared to when they're awake.
That was always the impression I got of the NC from the interviews with Ree. It sounded like they wanted to make the Dream more balanced and inclusive, not that they believed that sylvari should be the exact opposite of what the Ventari Tablet said they should. Unless they really are supposed to be the GW2 equivalent of the Sith, just saying "nuh uh!" to everything, which would be really disappointing.

As for the Great Destroyer, it awoke exactly when it was meant to. And the Drakkar champion was probably around since the last time the dragons were awake. The seed that made the Pale Tree, on the other hand, was taken from the cave before it was supposed to be planted, unless the dragon influenced Ronan to take it, which would be dumb.

So I think the reasons the Pale Tree could behave differently from other champions are as follows:
1. The seed was taken and planted before it was ready
2. The Ventari Tablet, and being raised in a peaceful and caring environment, influenced its development
3. The dragon that controls it is still asleep, which means it can't control the Tree as much as it could if it were awake
4. Plants just plain work differently than lava, crystals, water, ice, and zombies--they create new plants from other materials (nutrients in soil, water, etc.)

But more than anything else, I think the fact that they're being so secretive about the sixth dragon, the true nature of the sylvari, and the reason the sylvari can't be corrupted is enough. I don't think they're going for simple answers, like the sylvari NPC's answer of "Oh, I suspect it's just because we're too new and the dragon's don't know what to do with us yet," because why would they bring up the question and then dismissively answer it immediately? Also, I'm skeptical of the idea that they're Tyria's natural reaction to the dragons, like white blood cells, because there's no evidence yet that they appeared the other times the dragons awoke.

Basically, there are plenty of ways they can explain the apparent differences between the sylvari and other minions, and the other possible answers just seem too uninspired.

#162 Valkaire

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Posted 10 November 2012 - 11:29 PM

View PostVisteri, on 10 November 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

~

Malyck and the tree to the west. That tree obviously wasn't grown with ventari's tablet or the "kindness" around it (being planted on the graves of Ronan's family???), but he's not some mindless dragon minion.

#163 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 01:01 AM

View PostVisteri, on 10 November 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

That was always the impression I got of the NC from the interviews with Ree. It sounded like they wanted to make the Dream more balanced and inclusive, not that they believed that sylvari should be the exact opposite of what the Ventari Tablet said they should. Unless they really are supposed to be the GW2 equivalent of the Sith, just saying "nuh uh!" to everything, which would be really disappointing.
The thing to keep in mind with the NC is that they say one thing, then do another thing.

They preach the desire to become their "true selves" but their actions show otherwise. Take Malyck, for instance - when a Nightmare Court member finds out about it, she seeks to corrupt Malyck's tree, despite it not having been influenced by the Ventari Tablet.

View PostVisteri, on 10 November 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

As for the Great Destroyer, it awoke exactly when it was meant to. And the Drakkar champion was probably around since the last time the dragons were awake. The seed that made the Pale Tree, on the other hand, was taken from the cave before it was supposed to be planted, unless the dragon influenced Ronan to take it, which would be dumb.
I fail to see how the Great Destroyer waking "exactly when it was meant to" should influence how it acts compared to how it would act if Primordus was awake.

Furthermore, if being asleep when a minion is made affects the mental state as your claim for a possibility revolving around the Pale Tree, then when it's made should be irrelevant - there will be a mental difference irregardless. Even moreso for Svanir, even if being made a minion (and yes, made a minion, as Elder Dragons do not create themselves from scratch - everything was something before being corrupted, but not the Pale Tree nor sylvari) before the Elder Dragons' hibernation causes a lack of mentality change, then Svanir's mental state should have still been vastly different from your standard icebrood champion - but it wasn't.

View PostVisteri, on 10 November 2012 - 09:40 PM, said:

1. The seed was taken and planted before it was ready
2. The Ventari Tablet, and being raised in a peaceful and caring environment, influenced its development
3. The dragon that controls it is still asleep, which means it can't control the Tree as much as it could if it were awake
4. Plants just plain work differently than lava, crystals, water, ice, and zombies--they create new plants from other materials (nutrients in soil, water, etc.)

But more than anything else, I think the fact that they're being so secretive about the sixth dragon, the true nature of the sylvari, and the reason the sylvari can't be corrupted is enough. I don't think they're going for simple answers, like the sylvari NPC's answer of "Oh, I suspect it's just because we're too new and the dragon's don't know what to do with us yet," because why would they bring up the question and then dismissively answer it immediately? Also, I'm skeptical of the idea that they're Tyria's natural reaction to the dragons, like white blood cells, because there's no evidence yet that they appeared the other times the dragons awoke
Something I noticed that is always overlooked is a rather simple but hard to answer, imo at least, question: Why would a dragon minion be a seed?

Seriously, why? Sure, the land and plants can be corrupted, but why would a seed be made into a dragon champion? I fail to see the logic behind that considering each and every dragon champion are hand-picked by the Elder Dragons.

Point 2 is debunked by Malyck.

Point 3 is debunked by Svanir, Great Destroyer, and Malyck combo breaker.

Point 4 is debunked by the fact that living creatures procreate too, and not all dragon minions are no longer living (icebrood and branded). Theoretically - and I say theoretically simply because it's never been presented to us yet - the icebrood and branded could potentially procreate. This is in a way implied, actually, as there are comments about how the Sentinels don't understand how the branded are increasing in numbers outside those they corrupt (actually, I think there is an event focused on a branded devourer queen laying corrupted eggs). However, the reason its debunked is simple:

They were all corrupted from something before. So where's that "something before" for the Pale Tree? If the Pale Tree was corrupted, then why wasn't Malyck's tree - and if it was, then obviously Ventari didn't do diddly squat to prevent corruption, and the Nightmare Court isn't even close to how the natural form should be. It would even give credence to the benevolent dragon idea, except for the fact that the sixth Elder Dragon is not benevolent - and this carries back into the last standing possibility of "it's because the ED is sleeping" which as proven by the Great Destroyer and Svanir, doesn't matter anyways.

Furthermore, dragon minions can corrupt each other. So the sylvari's immunity is actually proof against the "sylvari are dragon minions" motion.

And who's to say that, should the sylvari be Tyria's reaction to combat the Elder Dragons, that they had to be around during the last rise (or for that matter, that they weren't). First of all, when your body combats an illness as time progresses the white blood cells become better at its job (so long as you take care of your body) by creating means to better combat the illness. So if the illness were to return in the future, the white blood cells would be more effective. The sylvari could just as easily have been around before as they could be an evolution of Tyria's reaction from the previous rise of the Elder Dragons - improved from that time, and taking a different appearance even so as to co-exist with the modern inhabitants easier.

Take note of the constant references to giants living during the last ED rise - now, think, what creatures exist with no known background that are akin to sylvari? Treants - that is, oakhearts, pinesouls, etc. A possibility, I dare say - just as likely, if not more, than sylvari being dragon minions when there's no serious support for it - just blank spaces that people are filling with "dragon minion!"

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#164 draxynnic

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 10:12 AM

View PostKonig Des Todes, on 11 November 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

The thing to keep in mind with the NC is that they say one thing, then do another thing.

They preach the desire to become their "true selves" but their actions show otherwise. Take Malyck, for instance - when a Nightmare Court member finds out about it, she seeks to corrupt Malyck's tree, despite it not having been influenced by the Ventari Tablet.
I think it's a case of there being variation within the Nightmare Court - one of the NPCs from the White Hart storyline appears to be genuine in wanting to free the PT, and there are possibly others that have been taken in by that veneer of legitimacy. However, most of them are probably in there for less noble reasons - a cry for attention (Cadeyrne), simple sadism, or Stockholm syndrome.
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#165 Grim Lich

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 01:22 AM

View PostKonig Des Todes, on 11 November 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:


Furthermore, dragon minions can corrupt each other.


Where did you find proof of this? Does the second "corruption" supersede the first one? Does the minion gain abilities of both dragons but only listen to one? Interesting combinations for future expansions if so.

#166 Trei

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 02:05 AM

I have yet to explore the Crucible myself, but is there no possibility that this green zone is simply empty? As opposed to indicate a supposed sixth dragon that has to do with plants and trees, which could have grew there naturally, only that no one has gotten around to clear them​.

Edited by Trei, 12 November 2012 - 02:09 AM.


#167 Valkaire

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 02:54 AM

View PostTrei, on 12 November 2012 - 02:05 AM, said:

I have yet to explore the Crucible myself, but is there no possibility that this green zone is simply empty? As opposed to indicate a supposed sixth dragon that has to do with plants and trees, which could have grew there naturally, only that no one has gotten around to clear them​.

The green zone is inside a building so it's hardly likely that the plants and nightmare husks grew there naturally. Personally, I think it's because the inquest was researching the nightmare court and the effect nightmare has on the environment, maybe it's source as well.

#168 Trei

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 03:21 AM

View PostKonig Des Todes, on 07 October 2012 - 01:46 PM, said:

The only true questionable in this situation is: why is there a binary code in Zone Green that - supposedly, as the only source I've seen for this is Wooden Potatoes who has been wrong in lore before (frequently) - translates into "Pale Tree" - given the complete lack of context behind it, the conjectures are truly endless.
If it is indeed intended to be interpreted as a binary code, then 0001 0111 simply translates as "End of Transmission Block" in ASCII 8-bit.
In other words - "you got your skill point, gratz, that's all folks."

Nothing to do with the Pale Tree.

Edited by Trei, 12 November 2012 - 04:01 AM.


#169 Evans

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 07:38 AM

On the subject of the NC, I think we assume that the court has deviated a lot from it's initial concept.

In the short story about Cadeyrn we learn that he has these natural feeling and instincts that go against the teachings of Ventari. He does not believe in giving everything a chance to grow or showing forgiveness after being wronged.
However, he most certainly does not seem so extreme as the NC is now. He wanted to protect his brethren, not torture and kill them.
Yes he was jaded when the Pale Tree refused to speak to him, but I don't believe the NC was originally the sin infested den it is now. I expect it to have been more like the soundless, with the major difference that he still wanted approval from the Pale Tree. Also Cadeyrn was pretty much looked down on by the Firstborn and I just imagine the Court was no threat to the Sylvari at that point.

That is until Faolain took over, turned to the black soul she is now by who knows what event. I think this is when the NC started to attract all evil in the Sylvari and became a major threat to them. Faolain is far, far more powerful, manipulative and thus dangerous and I don't think her goal is destroying the teachings of Ventari as much as ruling their entire race.

On the feeding habits of the Elder Dragons then. Clearly Zhaitan eats magical energy, we know this from the story. But I have to wonder about the other dragons...

Kralkatorix has nested in the Crystal Desert. I suppose there probably are artifacts from the ancient Elonians still, but his branded don't seem to move out of the branded areas (for all we know) so I would assume his supply is limited. A possibility is he's feeding of the presumably large amounts of magic layers Glint has woven over the centuries. It doesn't seem like he's done much since awakening and it's hard to tell since we know very little.

Primordus could be living off Asuran objects I guess, but it's hard to tell. His minions always seem to be around magma/heat, or maybe it's the other way around. Still, the natural energy in the earth could very well be his choice supply and it would make sense for him to stay underneath the earth's surface.

Jormag hasn't shown as much interest in magical objects as in new recruits imo. I should think Jormag particularly lives off the life energy of his followers. He actively seems to seek them out, but does not seem to harm them directly. Instead he 'blesses' them with his power, which in turn slowly drains the warmth (energy) out of them turning them to ice.

We know almost nothing about the other dragons so it's again hard to say. If the Krait are related to Bubbles, their sacrificial rituals could be a hint to what makes him tick.

I'm sure all dragons feed of magic, but perhaps the Eternal Alchemy is a better term to use.

Edited by Evans, 12 November 2012 - 07:56 AM.


#170 NachyoChez

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 11:03 AM

Just my 2 cents, but I firmly believe the Sylvari were meant to be minions.

What happened?

Some numbskull stole a seed then planted it while daddy was asleep, giving birth to a Lieutenant with no general.  Desperate for some form of guidance, this Pale Tree took on the teachings of Ventari and created the grove we now know.
'but no other minions show signs of free will!' In one of the later missions, you meet a minion of Zhaitan who Trea claims 'is not enslaved...'.  The minion responds that he obeys because he chooses to.  Lieutenants CAN have free will; the dragon might be imposing a will.  With Grove Daddy still asleep, Pale Tree developed this free will.  With so many Sylvari, I doubt he could enslave them again.

'But CoE proves minions can be dual-corrupted!'
That's one interpretation.  Another is that if you corrupted something with multiple sources AT THE SAME TIME it would gain multiple corruptions. Also worth noting these things don't obey the hive mind of their corrupted brethren (unless I missed Alpha yelling 'for Zhaitan!').  If we remove the assumption that these experiments were corrupted BEFORE the Inquest, then Sylvari immunity leans more towards proof of connection to the Elder Dragons.

This concept  also gives rise to a pair of new races becoming playable later: Risen and Branded.
'But they have no free will!'
As stated above, if the dragon is defeated *cough* then the lesser beings MIGHT be able to gather some form of free will.  this would create two player races that people would love to get their hands on, and the 'limited' races of the game being so... limited.


Sylvari being minions that escaped control gives them the background and presence to flush out some of ANet's promises, and sets the stage for some really neat interactions later.  It also fills in several gaps, and despite reading this entire thread I've not seen any great arguments against it.

#171 Valkaire

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Posted 12 November 2012 - 08:15 PM

View PostNachyoChez, on 12 November 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

Sylvari being minions that escaped control gives them the background and presence to flush out some of ANet's promises, and sets the stage for some really neat interactions later.  It also fills in several gaps, and despite reading this entire thread I've not seen any great arguments against it.

So then have you chosen to ignore everything about Malyck? His tree comes from the west with no interaction with humans or influence from ancient tablets written by peaceful centaurs. His tree and people aren't connected to the dream. They aren't influenced by "everything has a right to grow." etc. So why aren't they violent like the nightmare court or other dragon minions?

#172 NachyoChez

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 02:54 AM

View PostValkaire, on 12 November 2012 - 08:15 PM, said:

So then have you chosen to ignore everything about Malyck? His tree comes from the west with no interaction with humans or influence from ancient tablets written by peaceful centaurs. His tree and people aren't connected to the dream. They aren't influenced by "everything has a right to grow." etc. So why aren't they violent like the nightmare court or other dragon minions?
My idea claims that minions have free will by default, and the dragon exerts his will over them, removing that.

Since we don't have any confirmation on where the seed for Malyck's tree came from, I can't say much on it except that if it was planted without the influence of the sixth dragon it makes perfect sense they to would free will.  Since they have free will they're not 'mandatory evil', but they also don't have the tablet to guide their way.  They don't rebel against a teaching that was never given (like the NC), but I do admit the strangeness of him not being in the dream.

Though they could always jsut be an inquest experiment :-p

#173 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 13 November 2012 - 03:33 AM

View PostGrim Lich, on 12 November 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

Where did you find proof of this? Does the second "corruption" supersede the first one? Does the minion gain abilities of both dragons but only listen to one? Interesting combinations for future expansions if so.
Crucible of Eternity - both story and explorable - holds creatures influenced by multiple dragons. Sadly, we don't know their mental state, though Kudu, when he intentionally became corrupted by multiple dragons' magic, retained his personality (I suspect this is where the Nightmare Husks present in the Crucible of Eternity come into play - the Inquest studying, and managing to duplicate on a mental scale, the sylvari's immunity to draconic energies).

We don't see any two ED minion groups near each other outside the Crucible of Eternity though, as the only one which can be close to other minions would be destroyers, and the closest those come to any other dragon minion force is in Mount Maelstrom.

View PostEvans, on 12 November 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

-snip-
I think that the Nightmare Court aren't akin to Cadeyrn's original view on life is the whole point behind what the Nightmare does to sylvari. This is shown in the last sequence of the short stories from the blog post - how Cadeyrn goes from "I will be heard by the Pale Tree" to "we shall rule Tyria and elapse all in nightmare." Hence the whole "there's no return" concept tossed at our face several times - it's not that dissimilar to humans having traumatic experiences and being unable to overcome them. Sure, it's possible, but it's oh so easy to fall into a relapse and you're going to be scarred psychologically for life irregardless.

What corrupted Faolain was the Nightmare - the darker side of the Dream of Dreams, in effect, evil and what the Nightmare Court is seeking (via claim or not) to bring to the entire sylvari race.

It's hinted, if I recall correctly, that Faolain first got touched by the Nightmare when she and Caithe encountered Zhaitan for the first time - or some other horror of Orr (I just recall it talking about being from their first trip to Orr) and from there it uses the whole cliche of "if you look into the abyss long enough, the abyss looks into you" where Faolain "looked too long" and Caithe didn't.

View PostEvans, on 12 November 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

Kralkatorix has nested in the Crystal Desert. I suppose there probably are artifacts from the ancient Elonians still, but his branded don't seem to move out of the branded areas (for all we know) so I would assume his supply is limited.
The branded are moving south and east - threatening to leave the Dragonbrand in Fields of Ruin (at the very least).

But I would agree that the Elder Dragons feed differently. Just as they corrupt differently I think they sustain themselves differently - but in the end it's all "energy" and not consumed via food. Heat produces energy so there's Primordus; Jormag's all about mental corruption so there's probably something there just as Zhaitan's about magical radiation for his corruption, and Kralkatorrik seems to corrupt physically so... I am not sure where the energy comes from there.

View PostNachyoChez, on 12 November 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

Some numbskull stole a seed then planted it while daddy was asleep, giving birth to a Lieutenant with no general.  Desperate for some form of guidance, this Pale Tree took on the teachings of Ventari and created the grove we now know.
Explain Malyck then.

View PostNachyoChez, on 12 November 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

'but no other minions show signs of free will!' In one of the later missions, you meet a minion of Zhaitan who Trea claims 'is not enslaved...'.  The minion responds that he obeys because he chooses to.  Lieutenants CAN have free will; the dragon might be imposing a will.  With Grove Daddy still asleep, Pale Tree developed this free will.  With so many Sylvari, I doubt he could enslave them again.
Free will in the minions is dependent upon the amount of magic fed back into the minion - more magic, the stronger and more intelligent the minion is, and the more self awareness it has. Though all minions are fanatic servants to their dragon, irregardless (I'm unsure of what minion you're referring to that's said to be not enslaved, however).

View PostNachyoChez, on 12 November 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

'But CoE proves minions can be dual-corrupted!'
That's one interpretation.  Another is that if you corrupted something with multiple sources AT THE SAME TIME it would gain multiple corruptions. Also worth noting these things don't obey the hive mind of their corrupted brethren (unless I missed Alpha yelling 'for Zhaitan!').
Kudu's Monster disproves this. It is a risen giant without a doubt, which has been given the abilities (read: draconic energies, which is the source of corruption) of Kralkatorrik, Primordus, and Jormag as well.

View PostNachyoChez, on 12 November 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

'But they have no free will!'
As stated above, if the dragon is defeated *cough* then the lesser beings MIGHT be able to gather some form of free will.  this would create two player races that people would love to get their hands on, and the 'limited' races of the game being so... limited.
Actually, at the end of the personal story, the cinematic that plays says that the risen are still acting the same, if I recall correctly, and even if I don't recall correctly, the Arah explorable dungeon has dragon minions with the same personality system as before Zhaitan's death - powerful ones have more self awareness and intelligence than the weaker ones, which are just as mindless zergers as ever.

View PostNachyoChez, on 12 November 2012 - 11:03 AM, said:

Sylvari being minions that escaped control gives them the background and presence to flush out some of ANet's promises, and sets the stage for some really neat interactions later.  It also fills in several gaps, and despite reading this entire thread I've not seen any great arguments against it.
In reading this entire thread, I have not seen any great arguments for it either. You're missing a lot in your post which works against you.

View PostNachyoChez, on 13 November 2012 - 02:54 AM, said:

My idea claims that minions have free will by default, and the dragon exerts his will over them, removing that.
No, actually, it's the opposite - the Elder Dragon does indeed take the free will, when the creature is corrupted, but once a minion it will not have free will unless the dragon allows it.

Though "free will" being used is a misnomer because it's not really free will but self-awareness. The minions who are more aware and intelligent will still never, nor can they I presume, betray their Elder Dragon. The only reason Glint was able to escape Kralkatorrik's control was due to the forgotten having found a means to reverse the Elder Dragon's corruption - well, non-physical corruption.

View PostNachyoChez, on 13 November 2012 - 02:54 AM, said:

Since we don't have any confirmation on where the seed for Malyck's tree came from, I can't say much on it except that if it was planted without the influence of the sixth dragon it makes perfect sense they to would free will.  Since they have free will they're not 'mandatory evil', but they also don't have the tablet to guide their way.  They don't rebel against a teaching that was never given (like the NC), but I do admit the strangeness of him not being in the dream.
That is one huge of a damn big stretch there bucko, especially given one of your backings is wrong.

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#174 skyrmalt

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Posted 18 July 2014 - 11:11 AM

Congratulations to author! You predicted Mordremoth and quite accurately by far.

#175 stormguard31

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 08:52 AM

I am not sure if it has been posted, but has anyone thought that the sixth dragon, if there is one, is related to the nightmare? I mean think of it, you fight a dragon mad out of PLANTS in the dream, and the sylvari who join the nightmare court say that the others have been brainwashed. maybe the dream and ventari and whoever the guy is are what is protecting the sylvari and created them as a free race, and the nightmare court is the group of them that are corrupted/brainwashed.

#176 typographie

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 03:23 PM

View Poststormguard31, on 24 July 2014 - 08:52 AM, said:

I am not sure if it has been posted, but has anyone thought that the sixth dragon, if there is one, is related to the nightmare?

This thread is pretty old speculation. The sixth dragon, Mordremoth, is already confirmed,
Spoiler

I think at this point there's obviously a connection to the dream/nightmare in some way, but exactly how or what has not yet been spelled out.

Edited by typographie, 24 July 2014 - 03:29 PM.


#177 stormguard31

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Posted 24 July 2014 - 04:02 PM

View Posttypographie, on 24 July 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

This thread is pretty old speculation. The sixth dragon, Mordremoth, is already confirmed,
Spoiler

I think at this point there's obviously a connection to the dream/nightmare in some way, but exactly how or what has not yet been spelled out.

Thanks for posting that. Did not know, was unable to do the living story part one series.

#178 draxynnic

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 11:43 AM

There is a fairly common hypothesis that Mordremoth and the Nightmare may be connected, in part because of their shared use of husks, and in part because of the idea that once you fall to Nightmare, you can't go back.

Recent developments, however, seem to imply that it's actually the Soundless that are most vulnerable to Mordremoth. There's something funky going on with the Nightmare, but Nightmare courtiers still seem to maintain their immunity to dragon corruption.
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#179 Senatic

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 01:24 PM

View Postdraxynnic, on 27 July 2014 - 11:43 AM, said:

There's something funky going on with the Nightmare, but Nightmare courtiers still seem to maintain their immunity to dragon corruption.

Likely it's because they have to still be connected to the dream in order to spread the nightmare, and the dream is likely what creates this protection. The soundless on the other hand try to completely disconnect themselves from the dream and so do not benefit from its protection.

#180 typographie

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Posted 27 July 2014 - 04:23 PM

View PostSenatic, on 27 July 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Likely it's because they have to still be connected to the dream in order to spread the nightmare, and the dream is likely what creates this protection. The soundless on the other hand try to completely disconnect themselves from the dream and so do not benefit from its protection.

I'm just speculating here, but perhaps the Nightmare is the side-effects on sleeping Sylvari of the Dream/Pale Tree blocking actual dragon corruption at the time. In other words, while the dragons may not be able to actually corrupt protected Pale Tree Sylvari, it may still be able to (figuratively) "speak" to them and put ideas of rebellion in their heads. Thus resulting in a opposing Nightmare Court that has chosen to work toward the dragon's goals without actually being corrupted in the same way other living things are.

And as you say, that supports the idea that the Soundless are subject to the dragon's corruption because they lack the Dream's protection.

Edited by typographie, 27 July 2014 - 04:26 PM.





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