587 replies to this topic

[Mathnab]

Strife025, on 17 May 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

~~~for size ~~~

You're misinterpreting me.

I'm not saying that warriors should go with SOI and thus with the sonic boon build. I'm saying that if everything remains the same with the only variable being the presence of conditions, I don't see why you'de "waste" a full guardian's build on that one thing.

I'm not talking about your AH build where the support/anchor build is revolved around. I am talking about, as said in the clip above, the dps build you use when you don't need a full anchor for defense.

I'm also not saying that you need to remove the guardian all around (which you're implying in the 8th paragraph), they clearly have their uses (aegis, regen, blind, vuln, might, stability, projectile defense,...). I am saying that guardians might not be the most ideal class to use for condition removal since you sacrifice traits/gear+utilities vs just 1 utility skill (or if you need more 1 on 2toons).

So that's out of the way.

I agree shout heal is bad I however think your linked guardian build is falling in the same category of logical fallacy.
1. Totally agree apart from the fact that you also "waste" 15traits just to be able to remove a condtion as guardian and however many utilities you change out.
2. Ruby orbs vs Soldier Runes is a clear dps increase as is the case with changing 15trait points, so saying "doesn't suffer" is an overstatement. It is true that the shouts are used in a different way but the same idea applies. If you pop SYG cause you need stability, you can no longer use it to remove conditions (same goes for the other shouts) so in the end you're trading 'utility' for condition removal or vice-versa.
3. I again agree that shout heals suck, however for running through trash, what stops the warriors from just equiping SIO?
4. We're discussing content where the guardian is needed, I'm simply not convinced that guardian is the best suited to remove conditions.

I went with the basic CD's to keep things simple (for both guardian and warrior), if you want it to be exact we get 4/48sec(1/12s) for guardian and 2/50sec(1/25s) for war. The extra bonus is true, if you actually need stability,aegis, w/e at the exact time as when you need to remove conditions. IMO that won't happen a lot.

Null field and shouts have the same "triggers", you're going to pop them when they'll count for your entire group. If you look at the fights mentioned above in Arah where CR is "needed", null field would be fine.

For overall usefullness I agree that a guardian is better, for condition removal I'm not convinced. I don't think it's particularly hard to check if everyone has a condition in the 2.6s HB is going and if need be using SOI. Whether the guardian gets this burden or a warrior isn't a big difference either way.

If you really need 5/25sec to run through trash that's ok but I find this over kill (3 from wars+3from guard), I think that just having SOI + SY should cover it since that's 3.4/25s.
I left fractals out since I'm not discussion whether you need to bring CR or not, I'm discussing (or trying to) whether the DPS guardian really is the best suited for this.

It's understandable that you don't want to "try-hard" every night but it's not that big of a deal for a warrior to replace a skill for SOI when needed. Retraiting is anoying if you're going to run multiple dungeons back to back but you wouldn't switch to a dps-guardian in those situations anyway. I also think you're overestimating how often you need condition removal, case in point would be the example above from Arah. Out of 17 bosses you need CR 3times (17%) which makes it a bit of a waste to "dedicate" an entire toon around it.

1. Really isn't a big deal at all, I carry around 3sets at least (and I sort of think you do too, just other gear)
2. Not really needed since I think whenever you're bringing a dps-guardian you're already retraiting or alternatively you just swap 1utility on one toon instead.
3. Beside the point entirely
4. One person simply has to watch party frames, I don't see why anyone would need call-outs for that.

You seem to think I'm adressing the AH build this guide is about, I'm not. I'm talking about the dps-variation which came up in the discussions.

To be clear I'm not criticizing you or your build. I'm trying to point out that whenever you bring a dps-guardian instead of the build your guide focuses on, it would probably be better to go full DPS (10-30-x-20-x) and have a warrior bring SIO.

In short: my response was regarding

Nikephoros, on 16 May 2013 - 12:52 AM, said:

This is the DPS build vs Evolved Destroyer using 10/30/0/30/0.  No reflects needed in CoE so 10 in Zeal for more damages.

[Strife025]

In general, I wasn't saying that you thought sonic boon was good or you should run it. I'm saying that they are not comparable. You want dps for every fight and you want to constantly pop FGJ and OMM. You need SYG for very few fights, you don't necessarily need to pop Hold the Line constantly especially if you know you're in a condition fight, if you're taking a third shout you don't need to pop retreat constantly. You have a choice to either use skills for an Aegis, Stability, etc, or Conditions depending on the encounter. For every encounter, you want to pop FGJ and OMM at the start of the fight, pretty much no matter what, it's not as cut and dry for Guardian so you're not wasting the same potential.

In a shout heal you are wasting your entire party's potential by not giving them might, fury, and vulnerability if you hold your shouts, on top of doing less damage yourself. For a guardian running shout cond-removal, you are not wasting the group's potential, you are sacrificing your own dps to benefit the rest of the group, where a shout heal build you are sacrificing both your group and your personal dps (by a greater amount). And again, I would argue that removing conditions is more valuable then a 1500 heal on top of it.

The reason you bring warrior vs guardian in the group in the first place is different as I mentioned. You specifically bring Warriors to be pure dps because their traits and various skills; you bring Guardians to be a hybrid of utility and dps so focusing on that sole class for a big portion of your utility (outside of the specific things you bring mesmer for) while still maximizing your personal dps is a much more simple process.

I'm just saying that we don't always run an anchor build anymore, but we still one run guardian for the defensive and utility traits for guardian. Basically, some people still have anchor builds, and some have dps builds now. If we're doing something that needs an anchor someone will run a guardian, if we don't really need an anchor, someone will run a dps spec. If we don't even need guardian utility we run something else. The utility purpose is the same, they are just providing more personal dps now. I don't think any of us really constantly respec because probably 90% of our guild has a guardian, warrior, and mesmer on top of other classes and some of use have different builds on our guardians/mesmers. But yes, I don't disagree you can retrait and run optimal depending on the dungeon which really applies to other classes as well, but generally for nightly play it's simpler to just use "95%" efficiency builds.

In ideal world, yes carrying around multiple sets of armor is ideal if you want to constantly swap which I already said. If you wanted to end the discussion and just say run 10-30-0-20-10 and carry two sets of armor then that would be it.

But this is generally how things go every night. People do various things, dailies, pvp, etc. People in mumble will say "do you want to do a CoE run, or Arah, or a fotm 48." People instantly group, switch characters if needed, then just go run whatever. Generally people get lazy when they do the same thing constantly, if I'm on my warrior doing my dailies, or my mesmer in WvW, and say join some guildies on fotm 48 or CoE or something, we just wait until someone zones in, pop on another character or waypoint, and run the dungeon. I don't bother with a bunch of setup for something I'm not doing a video for, and we know we can do at 95% efficiency using a general build, that's usually what happens. Since we are a dungeon guild first, it's a pretty simple process to get people to run something, and for everyone to know there roles without discussing it.

As far as party frames, it obvious it's not the same, which I shouldn't have to explain.

If you aren't talking, it's hard to know and keep track of who is shouting, even if you have a pre-defined 1-2-3 order. Maybe someone is on cooldown that you don't know about, had to use it as a stun breaker, aren't focused on the party window because they are in the middle of concentrating on a dps rotation, etc. There needs to be verbal communication with 3 different people using shouts for the same function because you don't always know what their cooldowns are, what's going on in their head, etc.

Guardian has much simpler dps rotations and you are in the mindset of using your skills as a reaction. When I'm on guardian I constantly am looking at my group, know when to pop Aegis, reflects, etc. because that's my role, and I don't need to focus on swapping skills every 5 seconds, knowing which rotations to apply vulnerability, when to use 100B, when to swap cancel WW, etc. to maximize the party's dps like on warrior which is more involved at a micro-level. Not to mention it's much simpler seeing your own skill cooldowns to plan ahead then having 3 seperate cooldowns on 3 people's screens.

For Arah, yes specific bosses don't need much condition removal. It's more for the entire group while running since that is where most of the conditions come from. And yes you could probably just run 3 SIO, case in point when we did our 46s Lupi kill video we ran all of path 2 easily with 2 mes/3 warrior. As far as the build for CoE, would running something like 20-30-0-20-0 and making the warriors run SIO instead of frenzy for the alpha fights you needed it be better? I don't know, and I would really only care between those two scenarios if I was trying to beat a speed clear where seconds matter.

So again, the reason we put condition removal on one class is a general strategy when taking into account all dungeons and fractals and our general playstyle in just forming groups every night, and is more realistic and simple then spreading it across 3 different people.
Am I saying this is going to maximize your time on every single dungeon? No.
Am I saying I don't care if my run takes ~20s longer or something when not trying to beat times when we already run dungeons faster then 99% of the population in return for being more flexible (i.e. being lazy for daily play)? Yes.

Edited by Strife025, 18 May 2013 - 12:00 AM.

[Mathnab]

Strife025, on 17 May 2013 - 11:44 PM, said:

Basically, some people still have anchor builds, and some have dps builds now.

I only wanted to point out that in this specific case, where you bring along a guardian with a dps build, POV/Soldier gear isn't the most optimal and after reading through your comments, I think you agree. So this was a nice discussion where we can now clearly part ways in a friendly matter.
It was a nice and fun talk, let's do it again sometime.

[Strife025]

Yea I talk alot at work, helps kill time. I usually hardly post much after like 6pm pst :x

[Edath]

I'll try and find the post about meledelion regarding the lupicus kill so you can see it yourselves.
an other example of what i was trying to say with the one regarding the lupicus kill (no i didn't mean a new vid, just your repplies to the suggestions that were made) is that i previously stated that it wasn't always beneficial to bring an anchor. Your reply was that it's always better and now you state yourselves that it isn't always needed. Same goes for condi-removal, which mathnab pointed out for me while i was at work (i don't have time to post during work hours, -g2love waitering -) same as what meledelion did when u stated it was impossible to beat lupi under a minute

one more thing and then i'll drop this discussion, you say yourself that you rather have someone to have xyz task, in my eyes the guard -or whoever assigned- still is better off with swapping utilities for condi-removal whenever needed than being traited for that specific task a 100% of the time, even when it's not needed+you can even have a second assignement : e.g. 1/3 warrs equips sio whenever needed. If this isn't organised, i don't see what is.

mathnab, ty for taking over, you mostly stated the things i meant, better phrased and more clear as i was in a rush on my last reply.

Edited by Edath, 18 May 2013 - 01:12 AM.

[Nikephoros]

Mathnab, on 17 May 2013 - 11:55 PM, said:

I only wanted to point out that in this specific case, where you bring along a guardian with a dps build, POV/Soldier gear isn't the most optimal and after reading through your comments, I think you agree.

Except bringing Shake it Off on 3 warriors is less efficient than one character removing the conditions.  I don't get why this point is so impossible to grasp.  even if it lowered the guardian dps by 1% putting 30 in honor 0 in virtues versus 20/10 it allows the 4 others to maximize their dps.  I feel like I shouldn't have to explain this to people at this point in the game.  It's a tradeoff worth making.

Oh also.  any dungeon where you DONT need condition removal and DONT need reflects you DONT need a Guardian at all and might as well just bring another warrior or mesmer depending.  The reason you bring a guardian in the first place is because you want the utility it offers (shout cleanses being one of the best) not because it has superior DPS.

Edited by Nikephoros, 18 May 2013 - 02:22 AM.

[ninjo_o]

Edath, on 18 May 2013 - 12:58 AM, said:

I'll try and find the post about meledelion regarding the lupicus kill so you can see it yourselves.
an other example of what i was trying to say with the one regarding the lupicus kill (no i didn't mean a new vid, just your repplies to the suggestions that were made) is that i previously stated that it wasn't always beneficial to bring an anchor. Your reply was that it's always better and now you state yourselves that it isn't always needed. Same goes for condi-removal, which mathnab pointed out for me while i was at work (i don't have time to post during work hours, -g2love waitering -) same as what meledelion did when u stated it was impossible to beat lupi under a minute

one more thing and then i'll drop this discussion, you say yourself that you rather have someone to have xyz task, in my eyes the guard -or whoever assigned- still is better off with swapping utilities for condi-removal whenever needed than being traited for that specific task a 100% of the time, even when it's not needed+you can even have a second assignement : e.g. 1/3 warrs equips sio whenever needed. If this isn't organised, i don't see what is.

mathnab, ty for taking over, you mostly stated the things i meant, better phrased and more clear as i was in a rush on my last reply.

Why are you so mindset about the guardian being used as the condition remover?
I'm pretty sure that if a guardian is needed for a run, it is better being specced as such, otherwise you might want to look at bringing another warrior, most of the time.

The discussion is going on a loophole because it seems that you find it more convenient / organised for 3 warriors to use sio to remove conditions instead of a sole guardian looking after the whole group.

Also, I think Mathnab was talking about the guardian dps build while I'm still unsure about which one you're looking at.

A bit confusing in the end.

[Mathnab]

Nikephoros, on 18 May 2013 - 02:21 AM, said:

Except bringing Shake it Off on 3 warriors is less efficient than one character removing the conditions.  I don't get why this point is so impossible to grasp.  even if it lowered the guardian dps by 1% putting 30 in honor 0 in virtues versus 20/10 it allows the 4 others to maximize their dps.  I feel like I shouldn't have to explain this to people at this point in the game.  It's a tradeoff worth making.

Oh also.  any dungeon where you DONT need condition removal and DONT need reflects you DONT need a Guardian at all and might as well just bring another warrior or mesmer depending.  The reason you bring a guardian in the first place is because you want the utility it offers (shout cleanses being one of the best) not because it has superior DPS.

That's the point, you don't bring it on 3warriors one will suffice, heck I'm not even 100%sure SIO is a better option than NF...
To get the same condition removal as a warrior using SIO you sacrifice 1utility (need a shout) and 15 trait points/6runes (dno the stats exactly but you go very defensive) vs the war dropping 1utility.

I don't see how a team that has 3banners 3frenzy 2fgj and one SIO is losing a lot of dps. 2warriors using FGJ+SOI from the mesmer give 38.4s of fury uptime (most important about FGJ since there's might everywhere), this means that you can get perma fury quite easily:fgj*2= 19.2s*2 from SOI=38.4s-25(FGJ cd)+19.2=(32.6s-6.6)*2(SOI)=52s... (this keeps going on btw and you can even increase it by popping banner of disc before the pull using 2+fgj*2 to add a bit of extra time, but that's a hastle )It's not such an easy trade-off as you make it out to be.

I've already addressed this numerous times now, my critique is only regarding times where you want a guardian for the utility but don't need a defensive one.

P.S.: Please refrain from using words like "I feel like I shouldn't have to explain this to people at this point in the game.", it's offensive in one part and also doesn't help anybody. If you feel like you needn't explain something, simply don't reply.

[Nikephoros]

One Shake it Off does not equate to 3 condition removes on the Guardian in value terms.  and it's only 10 trait points.  Look at my 10/30/0/30/0 build: there is no where to put those 10 points anywhere that would greatly improve the DPS.  10 more in Zeal would add about 100 power and no useful trait.  Pretty lame compared to what PoV does.

Secondly, any dungeon that doesn't require condition removal doesn't require a Guardian, really.  The only reason to bring a guardian over another mesmer or a 4th warrior is reflects and condition removal.

[Soki]

Nikephoros, on 18 May 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

One Shake it Off does not equate to 3 condition removes on the Guardian in value terms.  and it's only 10 trait points.  Look at my 10/30/0/30/0 build: there is no where to put those 10 points anywhere that would greatly improve the DPS.  10 more in Zeal would add about 100 power and no useful trait.  Pretty lame compared to what PoV does.

Secondly, any dungeon that doesn't require condition removal doesn't require a Guardian, really.  The only reason to bring a guardian over another mesmer or a 4th warrior is reflects and condition removal.

And charity.

[Mathnab]

Nikephoros, on 18 May 2013 - 07:59 PM, said:

One Shake it Off does not equate to 3 condition removes on the Guardian in value terms.  and it's only 10 trait points.  Look at my 10/30/0/30/0 build: there is no where to put those 10 points anywhere that would greatly improve the DPS.  10 more in Zeal would add about 100 power and no useful trait.  Pretty lame compared to what PoV does.

Secondly, any dungeon that doesn't require condition removal doesn't require a Guardian, really.  The only reason to bring a guardian over another mesmer or a 4th warrior is reflects and condition removal.

3condition removes if you bring 3shouts (which means no SotA/WoR). More likely it's 2 CR's on the guardian vs 1 on the warrior. To "double" (not true since the cd's aren't 25s but 24/28 at best), you sacrifice 2utility slots and 10 traits (or as I've already said before 6runes).

Saying there is nowhere to put 10points that would greatly improve dps comes as a shock to me, how about 10% crit dmg + 2% crit chance when you go for valor? You get 572.23 more effective power this way (100power, 10% crit dmg, 2.42%crit chance) at the cost of 461 effective health, since your goal is damage it should be obvious you're sacrificing a lot when you go 10/30/0/30/0)

Also it isn't just about you (the guardian), it's about group optimisation. As we've already established, swapping out 1fgj for sio doesn't reduce dps at all, while changing 10 traits (+1 utility on the guardian) does.

I thought you brought guardians for other stuff like aegis, regen, stability, protection, projectile reflects, ... Don't forget that bringing those buffs also increases each warrior's dmg by 2% per buff from empowered.

[zosek]

Would it be possible to post what dps builds are running your party members (guardians)?

[thewindwaker]

"It's a 0-30-0-30-10 build with pure of voice in honor line and running berserker armor and ruby orbs." - strife025

[Nikephoros]

thewindwaker, on 21 May 2013 - 07:12 AM, said:

"It's a 0-30-0-30-10 build with pure of voice in honor line and running berserker armor and ruby orbs." - strife025

I use 10-30-0-30-0 in places where I don't need Master of Consecrations.  Depends what you run most often.

[BrazilTheHue]

It's a build that I experimented with and started using awhile back to improve damage during runs. It's 30 Radiance (VI, X, XI), 30 Honor (II, VIII, XI), 10 Virtues (V or VI depending on the encounter). I don't always use 3 shouts, I don't always use Wall and Shield, but I always have 30 in Honor for PoV. The reason that I like 30 into Honor is mainly to do with running past mobs that inflict Cripple or during certain boss encounters:

• Dominated Defilers
  
• Undead Spiders
  
• Every trash run in TA
  
• Every trash pull in CM
  
• Alpha in CoE
  
• Spiders / Necros in AC
  
• Inquest in SE
  
• Golem bosses in SE
  
• NO NO NO
  
• Operatives Belka and Brie
  
• Wraithlord's Magecrusher
  
• Risen Priest of Balthazar
  
• Berserker Abomination
  
• Legendary Shoggroth
  
• Wraithlord
  
• Poison in the Krait Fractal
  
• Use your imagination and think of some more

Perhaps there are some encounters where you don't need condition removal and would be better suited to have 10 trait points allocated elsewhere for an increase in DPS, but it isn't really practical to avoid taking condition removal when there are trash runs that will flat out kill members of your party if a condition like Cripple or Chill isn't removed and a Warrior utility like "Shake It Off!" gets a Banner cooldown. It is simply foolish to try and run an instance like Arah path 1 with no condition removal, because it will likely not be possible to run past trash mobs at all and taking the time to kill them will slow things down even further. Other encounters like the Risen Priest of Lyssa in Arah path 4 will result in a group wiping if the stacks of confusion aren't removed, and only one use of / messing rotation of "Shake It Off!" will not be enough to prevent the group from dying. The only other alternative to this situation is to stop attacking the boss and let the confusion wear off, and that is an obscenely low loss of DPS when the entire group has 25 stacks of confusion.

In a spreadsheet dream world where things never go wrong and every single run is consistent and perfect, condition removal probably doesn't have a place. In a setting where you actually encounter combat within the game and there is the opportunity for a mistake or something to go wrong, condition removal is vital and necessary, and generally speaking the Guardian is best suited to carry out this roll. Using one "Shake It Off!" in a trash run or using Null Field in a small area along a serpentine path lined with angry silver mobs will not carry out the job of removing conditions to the same effect as having 3 shouts on a Guardian. I'll concede the point that using something like an anchor build isn't very optimal, that's why I stopped using a build like this long ago. You can also make the argument that Warrior can just save Warhorn to remove Cripple and Chill, but again, that's not as practical. I'll also attach a screenshot of My DPS since that's really what this discussion is all about, this being one in particular that I like to look at and touch myself while thinking about how big the numbers were:

Attached Files

•  dps guardian.png   434.6K   106 downloads

[Edath]

when running through said trashmobs in p1, the wars could just equip a warhorn in their offhand -i don't find it a hassle at all to swap weaps, takes 2clicks and I'm alrdy doing it with 'empower' pre-boss pulls (swap back to the weapon I actually use while I'm casting)
- for vigor, speed and condi-removal.
I agree about the confusion bit, but that's 1 boss, where u can adapt some utility slot for.

anyways i said i'd drop this discussion. Points have been made against pov by myself and mathnab, points have been made for it aswel. it was a nice discussion and tbh this also has to do with personal/group prefferences, wheter u are comfortable with having 10traits that aren't (as) needed on the majority of fights or not, wheter or not u retrait,...

Keep em going, discussions like this, as they will improve everyones play and contribute to (new/other) ways of doing xyz-aspects of the game

kind regards

[GuanglaiKangyi]

Soki, on 18 May 2013 - 08:05 PM, said:

And charity.

Or anywhere you can't whirl against a wall.  Guardian greatsword DPS is actually higher than the warrior gs/axe combo if whirl is unavailable, both in terms of burst and sustained.

[Zorian51]

Strife,

How do you feel about celestial type accessories. I been doing some playing around with the stats and could maybe see using those in place of the beserkers? You'll get some extra healing power to make your heals hit harder and some extra HP which isnt a bad thing. You lose about 5 % crit and 200 power but gain extra toughness/vitality and other stats.

For reference:
http://gw2buildcraft...v.19.11.16.1i|e

Just curious on your thoughts since this seems like it would work well plus you get some bonus MF.

Also, thoughts on simply using Mango Pie for healing vs Life Steal? Wouldn't Mango Pie's 88 heal a second be just as good?

I'm asking on the all stat items since they all can help somewhat. Especially if you're using staff Empower/Orb for healing your team at times. With no healing power or little it empower can heal for 1800 where as with some healing power it can easily get close to 2500-3000 I would imagine with just using all stat items plus the HP crutch for a bit of a loss to crit/power.

Going full Power/Precison/Crit on the accessories drops your armor quite a bit and under the 3000 range which is why I'm thinking about doing all stat instead. Most of the stats except condition damage benefit you somewhat. The way I see it the lower the stat is to base the more benefit you get by upping it even if slightly.

Of course your power wont be as high but an Anchor Guardian isn't brought for damage anyways. I don't think it would make or break a fight as I doubt the Power change would affect the fight enough to make a giant difference.

Thoughts?

Edited by Zorian51, 03 June 2013 - 06:13 PM.