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Elementalist vs. Mesmer (Aky vs. Tsunkyr)

elementalist versus mesmer

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#1 Aky

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:36 AM



Turn up the volume and enjoy =)
I didn't leave out a single fight. Tsunkyr is a mesmer on tournament level and he plays a shatter build (which is superior to the Phantasm one in many ways).

I made lots of mistakes and there is still room for improvement, I should only use Mist Form on his Immobilize combo (Sword #3). I'm pretty sure I'll do better next time after analyzing my mistakes.

I still think Ele is the best 1v1 class at skill cap (I am not) and doesn't lose to any other class, I absolutely don't care if you believe me or not, you heard it here first.

P.S. Fire Greatsword. Best trolling weapon xD

#2 ghotbijr

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:49 AM

That was some very good ele play without a doubt, but I really don't think that mesmer was all that great... I play mesmer as one of my top 3 classes and I feel like I could have done much better than he did. Again don't get me wrong here, I think you're an excellent ele and you'd probably be a very tough fight for many player, but it's just I've yet to lose to an ele 1v1 consistently, not saying it's impossible, just I highly doubt it.

#3 kojun87

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 06:54 AM

We have a Video-Forum..plz post your Videos there, instead of making a new thread for every single video

#4 yonderbob

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:05 AM

Aky nice vid,

If i get this right you want to show people that Ele is not weak vs mesmer if you know what to counter, how and when. Wich is perfectly fine. I however have 1 problem with this. You use open ground to play, wich is not really realistic in high Tpvp. Most of the time you are contesting for a point. so you would be fighting on much smaller ground wich would benefit the sword/shatter mesmer greatly.
I would say make duels where you lose if you die or if the other person caps the point.  That would be far more realstic then fights in the open ground like that.
Anyways like the vid nonetheless.

#5 Coldznap

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:25 AM

View Postyonderbob, on 09 October 2012 - 07:05 AM, said:

You use open ground to play, wich is not really realistic in high Tpvp. Most of the time you are contesting for a point. so you would be fighting on much smaller ground wich would benefit the sword/shatter mesmer greatly.
I would say make duels where you lose if you die or if the other person caps the point.  That would be far more realstic then fights in the open ground like that.
^This.. which imo why in most situations arcane shield while on earth attunement (+surge trait) would be better if you are trying to contest a node vs a shatter mesmer.  

Awesome vid! :D

#6 Mekkakat

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 12:28 PM

I know you're a good Ele, Aky -

but fighting 1v1 in tPvP against a subpar Mesmer isn't showing the world our skills or how "good" (or bad) our class is. :zip:

Good vid though. I enjoyed watching it.

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#7 MaximumSquid

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 12:50 PM

Aky:

Build listed with a vid is a HUGE help if you're trying to make a tutorial thread

In this case, since is sounds like you know your foe fairly well, listing their build too would also be appreciated

---

Mekkakat:

Maybe, but many Ele have trouble fighting a good mes 1on1 because of how obvious our spikes are

Skimming the vid for what does and doesn't work is a big part of the learning curve

-

Edited by MaximumSquid, 09 October 2012 - 12:54 PM.


#8 Mekkakat

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 01:57 PM

View PostMaximumSquid, on 09 October 2012 - 12:50 PM, said:

Aky:

Build listed with a vid is a HUGE help if you're trying to make a tutorial thread

In this case, since is sounds like you know your foe fairly well, listing their build too would also be appreciated

---

Mekkakat:

Maybe, but many Ele have trouble fighting a good mes 1on1 because of how obvious our spikes are

Skimming the vid for what does and doesn't work is a big part of the learning curve

-

Fair - but 1v1 isn't a scenario an Ele should be in the often with tPvP. In sPvP, I seriously start the match by picking someone (usually a Guardian, Ranger or Warrior) and telling them "hey, you're my partner. Let's stay together". Oddly enough, I've never had a problem with it.

The one time I did, we played a match and I maxed on points that round, with the next highest score being like.. 120 points. Then everyone followed me in the next round haha.

Idk, it's hard to say what will and won't happen. In a 1v1, yeah, Mesmers are going to get you 9/10 if you don't run or get support. A smart Mesmer won't stick around wasting their time, either. Roaming as an Ele is going to get you a lot of heartache in general though. Again, I don't doubt Aky's skill or ability, I'm just saying that we could all make hypotheticals of every scenario and get mixed results. What works and doesn't isn't dependent on those, but on reading and understanding battles as they happen.

A Mes built like the one in the video would never lose to an Ele in a group fight.. but would almost surely bite it from someone the Ele is supporting. (and the theorycraft goes on and on).

What works:

Kill clones/phantoms asap when they pop up
dodge any clones/phantoms as soon as you see them cast to avoid burst
zone your point with Tooth and PBAoEs
kite during Glams
pressure with your conditions and Evasive Arcana if you have it
punish their heal if you can by crushing clones or using a KD/interrupt


What doesn't:

standing still
not healing to optimal HP
not focusing on the clones quickly
eating a Glam field for whatever reason
getting too close for Blurred etc
not using your water heals frequently

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#9 Aky

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 03:02 PM

I actually got positive feedback o.o
I'm surprised..

Notes:
1.) It's not realistic anyway because anything apart from a real tournament situation it is not realistic anyway by definition.
2.) He was the best mesmer I had on my friends list on Riverside. If you can do better, post your own Mesmer vs. Ele video.
3.) In no way am I saying I would win against all mesmers right now. I thought it was worth sharing the video so you can all see 1) my mistakes and 2) that it's not totally impossible to kill a mesmer (which I feel like 95% of the forum community assumed).

It was a new situation for both of us. We both had 0 experience in ele/mesmer duels.
After the match he even told me "We gotta repeat this tomorrow, I'd like to practice more. I still don't know whether S/S or S/P is better against you but it feels like the stun on S/P is superior against Ele."
He isn't bad, we were just not used to such a duel.

I agree on the LoS thing but I disagree that the mesmer is the only one who can profit from that ;)

Build is the same I'm using in all videos from now on. I posted it already, it's [S/D] Aggressive Boon Ele. It got its name because of how it's played, if you're not playing aggressively you will fail. He was playing 20/20/0/0/30 with additional Staff bounce trait.

And lastly, a bit offtopic:
4.) In my opinion it's complete nonsense to collect all videos in a single thread. Videos are (usually) a work of art which take quite a lot of time to make (some more, some less) and I think each video from every person deserves its own thread. Just because there is a video collection thread it doesn't mean I'll play along with that retarded decision and I absolutely don't care if I get an infraction for that. I don't know why it's been decided to do that but it definitely needs to be changed. I might come to an agreement when we're talking about tons of completely unedited matches. That's fine. Anything else is not. My 2 cents.

Edited by Aky, 09 October 2012 - 03:16 PM.


#10 Mekkakat

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 03:11 PM

View PostAky, on 09 October 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

I actually got positive feedback o.o
I'm surprised..

Notes:
1.) It's not realistic anyway because anything apart from a real tournament situation it is not realistic anyway by definition.
2.) He was the best mesmer I had on my friends list on Riverside. If you can do better, post your own Mesmer vs. Ele video.
3.) In no way am I saying I would win against all mesmers right now. I thought it was worth sharing the video so you can all see 1) my mistakes and 2) that it's not totally impossible to kill a mesmer (which I feel like 95% of the forum community assumed).

It was a new situation for both of us. We both had 0 experience in ele/mesmer duels.
After the match he even told me "We gotta repeat this tomorrow, I'd like to practice more. I still don't know whether S/S or S/P is better against you but it feels like the stun on S/P is superior against Ele."
He isn't bad, we were just not used to such a duel.

I agree on the LoS thing but I disagree that the mesmer is the only one who can profit from that ;)

Build is the same I'm using in all videos from now on. I posted it already, it's [S/D] Aggressive Boon Ele. It got its name because of how it's played, if you're not playing aggressively you will fail. He was playing 20/20/0/0/30 with additional Staff bounce trait.

And lastly, a bit offtopic:
4.) In my opinion it's complete nonsense to collect all videos in a single thread. Videos are (usually) a work of art which take quite a lot of time to make (some more, some less) and I think each video from every person deserves it's own thread. Just because there is a video collection thread it doesn't mean I'll play along with that retarded decision and I absolutely don't care if I get an infraction for that. I don't know why it's been decided to do that but it definitely needs to be changed. I might come to an agreement when we're talking about tons of completely unedited matches. That's fine. Anything else is not. My 2 cents.

S/P is superior against most 1v1 (for Mesmer).

I hope I wasn't offensive in my previous posts btw. I was just trying to be realistic (which you are as well).

- I want that purple stuff.


#11 abr4

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 03:26 PM

View PostAky, on 09 October 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

"We gotta repeat this tomorrow, I'd like to practice more. I still don't know whether S/S or S/P is better against you but it feels like the stun on S/P is superior against Ele."

Yes, from my experience pistol stun is better.

View PostAky, on 09 October 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

4.) In my opinion it's complete nonsense to collect all videos in a single thread. Videos are (usually) a work of art which take quite a lot of time to make (some more, some less) and I think each video from every person deserves its own thread. Just because there is a video collection thread it doesn't mean I'll play along with that retarded decision and I absolutely don't care if I get an infraction for that. I don't know why it's been decided to do that but it definitely needs to be changed. I might come to an agreement when we're talking about tons of completely unedited matches. That's fine. Anything else is not. My 2 cents.

I absolutely agree. Every video deserves it's own discussion (if it's worth discussing) and muddling all vids into a single thread absolutely ruins the possibility to have any of that. It's like trying to talk to someone across a crowded room where no one is allowed to move around so everyone can only communicate by shouting. Nobody will be able to follow any conversation going on.

Edited by abr4, 09 October 2012 - 03:29 PM.


#12 Rhasis

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 03:35 PM

View PostAky, on 09 October 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

I still think Ele is the best 1v1 class at skill cap (I am not) and doesn't lose to any other class, I absolutely don't care if you believe me or not, you heard it here first.

Agree (pretty similar to wow's mages). I would love to see some short snares on scepter to stretch that cap a little more (on shatterstone, maybe?).

Nice video, i think i understand why you wait so much to use your heal... but still stress me see it without cooldown

#13 zeizhi

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 07:38 PM

View PostAky, on 09 October 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

2.) He was the best mesmer I had on my friends list on Riverside. If you can do better, post your own Mesmer vs. Ele video.
3.) In no way am I saying I would win against all mesmers right now. I thought it was worth sharing the video so you can all see 1) my mistakes and 2) that it's not totally impossible to kill a mesmer (which I feel like 95% of the forum community assumed).
That's fine and all but this is not evidence for your claim that Ele's are the best 1v1 class.

The premise that Mesmers are difficult to kill (often exaggerated to impossible) presumes that the two players are of equal skill. If you are a better player than your opponent the relative difficulty certainly changes. The complaints about Ele's are not only that they are weaker and limited but also that they take longer to master.

Quote

He isn't bad, we were just not used to such a duel.
Fair enough, but he didn't demonstrate that he is good, nor is he playing the build that is the most powerful. As as you mention, the context of the dual is irrelevant to the games actual pvp at which point some of the aspects of eles are relatively weaker and aspects of mesmers are relatively stronger.

The reason that you often get negative feedback is due to people feeling like what you provide here imply's that ele's are fine, when you admit yourself it does not only after you get some positive feedback. I'd avoid implying they are actually fine without actual evidence suggesting they can match up to the other classes or provide something of significant value that others can't (This does not mean stop posting videos).

Edited by zeizhi, 09 October 2012 - 07:40 PM.


#14 Aky

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 09:53 PM

zeizhi, all I can say is after I uploaded the vid, analyzed my mistakes and got feedback I mass-spammed tournaments with a group today and I absolutely have 0 problems with mesmers right now.

So if you have the name of a very good mesmer which I can't counter the way I do it right now I'd like to know it.
I'd accept defeat if someone could show me that I'm just talking bullshit and wins 100% : 0% vs me. Would be fine with me, I don't mind losing, I'll have to come up with different tactics then.

Edited by Aky, 09 October 2012 - 10:09 PM.


#15 zlipus

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:08 PM

Good video but the mesmer wasn't all that great.

#1, i RARELY saw him use the clone swap into blurred frenzy, which is just asking to waste one of your highest damage moves and burst set ups.

#2 For running a shatter build, hes using the staff over the greatsword. They both have the same clone/phantasm generation but GS alone on its own merits does MUCH more damage where as staff is a defense focused weapon so i imagine hes running more of a condition based build.

Yeah thats about it really, i just don't think you went up against a real shatter mesmer of high caliber. Great ele play though you did everything right, kept moving and aoe'd the stationary clones when ever you could. One of the biggest things you can do to save yourself from a shatter mesmer is TRY and roll out of the shatters (i give it about 50/50 chance of working). But its tricky because if you wait too long they blow up then do their animation, or if you do it too early they'll still chase you then pop.

Edit* For clarification the mesmer wasn't bad either, he used what he could and the chaos storms on top of the ride the lightning's were funny :P

Edited by zlipus, 09 October 2012 - 10:15 PM.


#16 Aky

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:13 PM

View Postzlipus, on 09 October 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

One of the biggest things you can do to save yourself from a shatter mesmer is TRY and roll out of the shatters (i give it about 50/50 chance of working). But its tricky because if you wait too long they blow up then do their animation, or if you do it too early they'll still chase you then pop.
Exactly, that's where his main damage comes from. I'd say the chances are higher than 50/50 on small points, more like 75% chance to evade the Shatter unless it's the Graveyard where the clones are always positioned differently and aren't fully evadable (like 50% yeah).

Also, save Mist Form for Immobilize -> Shatter -> BFrenzy combo.

On Staff you can evade most of the damage with Fire #4, Burning Retreat.
On S/D you can evade most of the damage by Air #5, Updraft - unless you already used it offensively.

Both are fully functional evade rolls.

Edited by Aky, 09 October 2012 - 10:16 PM.


#17 Angarato86

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 10:29 PM

Fun too watch, very cool fights, dunno much bout either classes to comment on skill but was very amusing to see.

#18 Elemental Gearbolt

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Posted 09 October 2012 - 11:27 PM

View PostAky, on 09 October 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:



Turn up the volume and enjoy =)
I didn't leave out a single fight. Tsunkyr is a mesmer on tournament level and he plays a shatter build (which is superior to the Phantasm one in many ways).

I made lots of mistakes and there is still room for improvement, I should only use Mist Form on his Immobilize combo (Sword #3). I'm pretty sure I'll do better next time after analyzing my mistakes.

I still think Ele is the best 1v1 class at skill cap (I am not) and doesn't lose to any other class, I absolutely don't care if you believe me or not, you heard it here first.

P.S. Fire Greatsword. Best trolling weapon xD

Yes..ele is the ebst 1vs1 class and doesn't lose to any other class...I believe you^^!

I use d/d to demolish pretty much every profession, mesmers are no exceptions, an aggressive playstyle is the way to go against mesmers, just don't leave room to breath , though I make good use of shocking aura when they try the sword combo and updraft to avoid the shatter attempt.

Don't attack them while they've got chaos armor up and dodge chaos field ( which you did in a great way ) , watch out for confusion stacks..and it's GG for you^^.

Yeah eles are fine , I prefer d/d but even using s/f I don't lose to any profession 1vs1 ( well actually I haven't tried yet s/f against mesmers)

#19 LUDAK987654

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 03:40 AM

There is something called a " heal"  skill which is not forbidden to use as far as i know.
Ele and eng are best classes to counter mesmers  imho ,
just because of the huge amount of aoe they can use,
but to say ele is best 1vs1 lass is kind off.

#20 Aky

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:47 AM

View PostLUDAK987654, on 10 October 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

There is something called a " heal"  skill which is not forbidden to use as far as i know.
There is something called a "brain" which is not forbidden to use as far as I know.

Edited by Aky, 10 October 2012 - 12:04 PM.


#21 Mekkakat

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 12:40 PM

Unless you have Stone traited, blowing your healing Signet means you lose a lot of passive healing. It's better to keep popping water and trying to rapid cast if you can.

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#22 Kazgrel

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 01:59 PM

Maybe I'm the only one, but I get a lol out of the preview still for the video embed being that of the OP/ele being in down state.  XD

@ OP:  I am not picking on you, just pointing out an observation.  Sadly I can only view the still and not the vid itself since I am at work.  :(

#23 Aky

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 03:00 PM

View PostKazgrel, on 10 October 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

Maybe I'm the only one, but I get a lol out of the preview still for the video embed being that of the OP/ele being in down state.  XD
ikr youtube makes awesome default previews xD

#24 Athletic

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 05:07 PM

I don't see the point in this honestly with all the running around and kiting illusions.

If this was an actual game the mesmer would stand on the node with you either contesting near him or you leaving the point to him.
If the first option you'll get shattered to pieces, if the second well... you're costing your team valuable points.

No offence meant, just my opinion.

#25 DaPala

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:08 PM

View PostAthletic, on 10 October 2012 - 05:07 PM, said:

I don't see the point in this honestly with all the running around and kiting illusions.

If this was an actual game the mesmer would stand on the node with you either contesting near him or you leaving the point to him.
If the first option you'll get shattered to pieces, if the second well... you're costing your team valuable points.

No offence meant, just my opinion.

So what's your take on this - in other threads I hear you yelling how oh so very strong ele is - and now you conclude that the ele either a) dies or B) runs and loses the point?
Care to elaborate?

#26 Athletic

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Posted 10 October 2012 - 10:13 PM

View PostDaPala, on 10 October 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

So what's your take on this - in other threads I hear you yelling how oh so very strong ele is - and now you conclude that the ele either a) dies or B) runs and loses the point?
Care to elaborate?
I never said ele was OP or anything did I? I said ele was in a good state, which it is. This doesn't mean it's going to wreck the strongest 1V1 build in the game...

Edited by Athletic, 10 October 2012 - 10:13 PM.


#27 Awake

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 03:38 AM

Not sure what build you are running, but (if you are running 10 points in water for condi removal on water swap), you can swap to water attunement to remove mesmer sword #3 immobilize and dodge the shatter + blurred frenzy, and save mist form as long as you're attunement swap cd's are appropriate. Although good mesmers will cover their immobilize with magic bullet stun if they think their root will get removed. Just something to watch for. It's better to get them to blow both cd's if you're going to mistform instead of just one.

View PostAthletic, on 10 October 2012 - 10:13 PM, said:

I never said ele was OP or anything did I? I said ele was in a good state, which it is. This doesn't mean it's going to wreck the strongest 1V1 build in the game...

If you think shatter Mesmer is the best 1v1 build in the game you are sadly mistaken.

#28 Athletic

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 10:32 AM

View PostAwake, on 11 October 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

If you think shatter Mesmer is the best 1v1 build in the game you are sadly mistaken.
What is then

#29 Mekkakat

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 12:50 PM

View PostAwake, on 11 October 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

Not sure what build you are running, but (if you are running 10 points in water for condi removal on water swap), you can swap to water attunement to remove mesmer sword #3 immobilize and dodge the shatter + blurred frenzy, and save mist form as long as you're attunement swap cd's are appropriate. Although good mesmers will cover their immobilize with magic bullet stun if they think their root will get removed. Just something to watch for. It's better to get them to blow both cd's if you're going to mistform instead of just one.



If you think shatter Mesmer is the best 1v1 build in the game you are sadly mistaken.

Other than maybe a full stealth Thief or bunker Guardian.. I couldn't even think of what you're implying is.

Mesmer, even after the nerfs are ... they're great in 1v1.

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#30 Aky

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Posted 11 October 2012 - 01:11 PM

1v1: Confusion mesmer > Shatter mesmer > Phantasm mesmer.
He is right. Shatter is not the best 1v1 build but the one most used in tournaments for AoE damage.

Edited by Aky, 11 October 2012 - 01:13 PM.






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