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Chunx's Minion Mastery Guide

guide ochunxsupercool minion build pve necro necromancer minions minion master 2014

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#1 OChunx

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 05:24 AM

Outdated: April 15, 2014
Will update once gw2skills.net updates with new skills
Spoiler

Major edits/changes from recent updates marked in blue!

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NOW YOU TOO CAN HAVE YOUR OWN ARMY OF HORRORS!


TABLE OF CONTENTS-----------------------------------------------------------------------

I. Introduction
   - Philosophy
   - Pros  
   - Cons
II. The General Build
   - Weapons, Skills, and Stats
   - Spite
* Major Traits   
* Minor Traits
   - Death Magic
* Major Traits   
* Minor Traits
   - Blood Magic
* Major Traits   
* Minor Traits
   - Use
   - Underwater Combat
III. The Minions
IV. Equips
- Armor
- Weapons
- Trinkets
V. Low Levels
VI. END

Introduction--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi guys, ever since guild wars 1, I've enjoyed the notion of being a one man army. In gw1, a minion master was a support role who not only dished out massive AoE damage, but more importantly provided a massive meatshield that increased a party's survivability drastically. Although the style has obviously changed in gw2, a minion master retains that feeling of toughness and power that comes with leading your own army. So I thought I'd share with you guys my thoughts and build on the minion master since I see so many threads with questions on this.

Philosophy
Spoiler

Pros
You are one of the most unkillable forces in PvE. With 7 bodies of HP (and death shroud) coupled with high toughness, vitality (highest base vitality in the game), and healing power, you are a real tank in the game. Being at range means you get hit less often and less hard as well, so really most deaths should have been caused by you running off a cliff. You also do an admirable amount of single target damage with all your minions along with you focusing on one enemy. Your staff is also one of the best AoE option necromancers have.

Cons
Your DPS is generally below that of many other necromancer builds. With a reliance on minions, you are also reliant on their subpar AI. When your minions are down, you are also extremely vulnerable. Minions just get destroyed by AoE damage and are generally unviable in most dungeons. Marching around needing to maintain 6 other bodies is sort of clunky and might slow you down a bit when roaming the world.

The General Build---------------------------------------------------------------------------

http://gw2skills.net...ETpiIq2lgIqGA-e

This build is mainly meant for general PvE open-world map roaming and personal story completion, for which it actually excels quite well at. In addition, it's useful for small skirmishes in WvW and holding points in sPvP. However, It is highly unsuited for the completion of the more challenging dungeons and fractals.

NOTE: This guide assumes that you have about 1900 Power and 1500 Healing Power, from which many of these numbers are derived. You may find that your actual numbers are a bit higher than these, as I underestimated figures to be on the safe side.

Weapons, Skills, and Stats

Your main weapon will be your staff. This will be the tool that you will use 95% of the time to heal your minions with through the use of Mark of Blood and deal AoE damage with through the use of your other supportive marks. Going into Death Shroud while wielding the staff also guarantees that your attacks while in Death Shroud will deal the maximum damage possible, as Death Shroud's power directly scales off primary weapon damage.

Your secondary set will be axe and focus. Switch to this weapon set in instances where your marks cannot trigger (world bosses) or in instances where there's just no way your minions will be damaged (eg. when dozens of people are stacking on top of a champion). This set allows you to dish out more direct damage through the use of Reaper's Touch and Ghastly Claws, while also stacking vulnerability so that your minions will deal more damage. The downside, of course, is that while you are using this set, the only way to heal your minions is through Death Shroud.

Honestly though, I'd recommend sticking with the staff 95% of the time, but hey, it's all up to you how you think is the best way to play.

Spite - Helps aid our damage output a bit.

Major Traits
(III) Spiteful Removal - 10 points nets us Spiteful Removal, a trait that is useful in cleansing conditions from us. This build carries surprisingly little condition removal for a necromancer build, so we'll take what we can.
(IX) Training of the Master - We go 20 points into the Spite line to pick up Training of the Master (increase minion damage by 30%) which is absolutely necessary to ensure that you get respectable amounts of damage out of your minions.

Minor Traits
(5) Parasitic Bond - There's nothing much to say: kill a foe, gain about 1,000 life. The healing scales with healing power.
(15) Death into Life - Death into Life rewards stacking of power and damage by helping fuel our healing power. Useful.

Death Magic - Helps ensure the survival of our minions.

Major Traits
(V) Staff Master - Staff Mastery reduces the cooldown of our marks, allowing us to keep the regeneration up on the minions more easily by spamming more Marks of Blood and aids in the overall (AoE) DPS of staff as more marks can be spammed in a shorter period of time.
(X) Flesh of the Master - Absolutely crucial for minion masters. An additional 50% health for minions makes a huge difference in minion survivability, and yours as well.

Minor Traits
(5) Reanimator - Allows us to summon a Jagged Horror after every kill on a 15 second cooldown. These guys will start adding up over time as your constant healing means that more and more will start accumulating, adding a surprisingly high amount of damage to your build. Not to mention the other benefits of having extra minions (more bodies, more distraction, more toughness from Protection of the Horde).
(15) Protection of the Horde - This trait is what lets minion masters be so tough on top of all the healing and minion body blockers. With +20 toughness per minion, you're looking at an additional 120 toughness with just your standard six minions up. Add in a potential four Jagged Horrors and this minor trait can provide you with up to 200 additional toughness, an increase of about 10% (depending on your stats of course).

Blood Magic - Helps aid our damage output and ensure the survival of our minions.

Major Traits
(VI) Transfusion - Wow. This is probably the highest burst heal in the game. With full healing power gear, Life Transfer will heal around 27,000 health every 40 seconds. The people who say healing power doesn't scale well obviously have never used Life Transfer with Transfusion. In fact, this combination is great by itself within any context (paired with healing power gear). Imagine healing your entire party for their entire life bar every 40 seconds. And if that wasn't good enough, the healing is spread across nine pulses, decreasing the likelihood that you will overheal (like with one lump sum of healing). Can also heal your minions out of combat as the Life Transfer healing doesn't actually require a target. The healing scales with healing power.
(IX) Deathly Invigoration - Deathly Invigoration allows you to heal your minions for about 1000 every time you exit Death Shroud. This allows for about 1000 healing every 10 seconds, and can heal outside of combat as well. The healing scales with healing power.
(VII) Vampiric Master - Here we go. With a full set of healing power gear (and the 20/0/20/30/0 stat spread), this trait should be adding at least 70 points of damage to each of your minion's attacks, and healing you for over 100 points of health for each attack. Considering that you'll probably have anywhere from 6-8 minions at a time, you'll be healing for 2100-2300 health after every full cycle of minion attacks (that number includes the health gain from the Blood Fiend's autoattack)! Not only that, but adding 70+ points of damage is a huge boost to minion DPS, outright doubling it in some cases. Build changing to say the least. The added damage that minions do scales with power, while the amount they siphon scales with healing power.

NOTE: Bloodthirst increases the additional amount of damage that minions do due to Vampiric Master, but does not affect the healing portion. Bloodthirst curiously does not affect Transfusion. Either way, we choose to take Deathly Invigoration for the reliable heals over Bloodthirst.

Minor Traits
(5) Full of Life - The regeneration helps heal you.
(15) Vampiric - The health siphon helps heal you.
(25) Blood to Power - Adds 120 to your power as long as you are over 75% health. Also happens to add about 8 healing power (basically negligible) due to Death into Life.

Use

You will rely mostly on your marks and your minions to deal damage, however, spamming mark of blood as soon as it's off cooldown is your priority. The more often it goes down, the longer your minions last, and with such a long cooldown on minion skills, it is imperative that they don't go down. So a typical situation would probably start with you aggroing the mobs with Necrotic Grasp, followed by laying marks 2-5 down right away, then spamming each mark as it comes off of cooldown, with Mark of Blood always taking priority. Also enter death shroud when you have the trait "Transfusion" to mass heal your minions, as well as making sure to spam death shroud on and off every 10 seconds as soon as its off cooldown to make use of "Deathly Invigoration". Your Death Shroud-based heals will be the main source of healing for your ranged minions (bone fiend and blood fiend) as they are oftentimes not within the radius of your Mark of Bloods. Use the minion skills as soon as they're off cooldown for a bit more utility, although you may want to save the flesh golem's charge for a large pack of enemies as an AoE knockdown or to interrupt certain moves. If one of your bone minions dies but the other is still alive, blow the leftover one up so that you can recast to get both back.

In essence, the build is very support and control oriented. Not because there's a lot of crowd control skills (although there are many, AoE chill, AoE fear, cripple, AoE knockdown), but because of the swarming, aggro, and body-blocking potential of minions in managing just one enemy, or an entire crowd of enemies. The highly-traited staff offers both offense in the form of more AoE, but at the same time lets you lay down larger and more frequent Marks of Blood, providing massive healing for minions, and support for melee party members. In this way, you can effectively fill three different roles, lending lots of healing support while being near unkillable yourself, as well as decent AoE and single target damage.

I guess the cornerstone of everything can be said to be the staff which provides both offense and defense. The minions simply augment the crowd control portion while providing targets for your staff support skills when no one else is around, and then adding damage on top of that.

Underwater Combat

Underwater combat essentially uses the same bar, just with Plague instead of Flesh Golem since no other Necro elites work underwater. This also means you'll have to focus more on damage yourself. Honestly though, the only reason that minions even work on land is because you can keep them maintained by healing them, something you can't do at all underwater. Although technically there still are ways to heal them (Deathly Invigoration and Deadly Feast on the Spear), it just isn't worth it to focus on it, though you can try. Spear will do more damage, but trident will be safer.

The Minions---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many experience issues with their minions not attacking when they get into a fight. Here are some tips on triggering minion aggression:
1. Auto-attack the mob you want to attack using the 1 skill. This is important, especially for the staff. I was able to reliably replicate having my minions focus on a target by first attacking it once with 1. Marks will not work; your minions will continue to stand still if you use a mark on the enemy. Bone minions seem to be just a tiny bit less responsive to this, but that may just be anecdotal.
2. Using the corresponding minion skills has so far had a 100% success rate in making minions attack. Obviously, this will only apply for some.
3. Running away far enough will disengage your minions. For flesh golem, however, you tend to have to run away farther. You'll know when he's back when he teleports back.

It should also be noted that minion power, vitality, and toughness do not scale with your stats or your traits. However, minions do inherit the condition damage, condition duration, and boon duration of the necromancer. This only affects the minions that apply conditions of course, such as the Jagged Horror and Flesh Golem.

Blood Fiend - Your main source of healing, the blood fiend siphons health (about 1500 per attack) and gives it to you. The healing scales with healing power.
Armor: 2000
Health: 22230
Traited Health: 33345

Bone Fiend - Ranged minion which fires two projectiles that cripple once every 10 seconds. Use its utility skill to instantly immobilize enemies. Can regenerate health out of combat.
Armor: 2600
Health: 11970
Traited Health: 17955

Shadow Fiend - Awesome minion. Inherently tougher than many of the other minions and haunt is useful in blinding bosses. Is always on the front line so he will be a meatshield for you and is constantly healed by mark of blood. Can regenerate health out of combat. The utility skill AoE blinds.
Armor: 2125
Health: 18297
Traited Health: 27446

Bone Minions - Probably more resilient than what you thought they would be because of all the healing the get from mark of blood. They do okay damage if both are alive, but generally try not to explode them because they are worth more to you alive than dead (extra meatshields, each will be 20 extra toughness because of the "Protection of the Horde" minor trait)
Armor: 2125
Health: 8550
Traited Health: 12825

Flesh Golem - Awesome elite skill even if you aren't a minion master. This guy can AoE knockdown and does a ton of damage. This guy seems to be getting better and better with each patch having gone through numerous AI and health/toughness buffs. Use the golem's charge attack against things that will keep it in place (against walls, edges, doors, breakable objects) and it will repeatedly knockdown and deal continuous pulses of damage. Very useful in breaking objects and doors in WvW. His attacks also apply cripple.
Armor: 2600
Health: 22230
Traited Health: 33345

Flesh Worm - Yes, he's good if you're one place for a long time, but the fact that you can't move him is VERY bad, basically the same as always having one less (or two) minion. The biggest pro about him is that he does a lot of damage, so maybe you can use him in long fights with Champions or Veterans.
Armor: 2470
Health: 15390
Traited Health: 23085

Jagged Horror - These little guys won't last long in fights due to their constant internal degeneration (-3.5% health every second), but when they are up, they will provide you the +20 toughness from Protection of the Horde and will bleed the enemy on an attack. If you are constantly spamming Mark of Blood and endless mobs are coming at you, it is entirely possible to keep 3-5 of them up. Flesh of the Master does affect these guys as well.
Armor: 2125
Health: 14877
Traited Health: 22316

Equips---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Spoiler

Armor

All armor should be Cleric's (++Healing Power, +Power, +Toughness). The healing power is there to make sure that your heals are powerful enough to maintain your minions. The power benefits Vampiric Master, which in turn helps your minions deal more damage. Toughness is simply the last stat we are forced to take, but does provide a nice amount of defense to the already high base-HP pool of the necromancer.

Runes on armor should be 5 Superior Runes of Dwayna along with 1 of any superior rune that gives healing power. These maximize your healing power and increases the duration of your regeneration boons on your minions.

Lastly, if you're crazy enough to use create ascended gear for a minion master build, infusions are basically determined by your wealth. Just put Mighty Infusions in your offensive slots and Healing Infusions in your defensive ones.

Weapons

For the same reason as the armor, your staff should be Cleric's. A Superior Sigil of Life should go on your staff, as it offers a huge bonus in healing power to help heal your minions with.

The axe and focus can both be Berserker's (++Power, +Precision, +Critical Damage) to maximize damage, since presumably you'll only be using that stat when you won't be healing your minions. Putting a Superior Sigil of Life on one of them also helps stack up those healing counters for after your weapon swap while having a Superior Sigil of Force helps while fighting with the axe and focus.

Spear and trident are both Berserker's because it's generally impractical to focus on healing your minions underwater. Place Superior Sigils of Force on to do more damage. Even though trident is a condition-based weapon, we go with a power-focused stat distribution because power still adds to Vampiric Master which in turn adds to minion damage.

Though underwater really doesn't matter too much. Take Berserker's on both if you want. Take Cleric's on both if you want. Take Rabid or Apothecary on the Trident if you want. It just doesn't really matter too much, and this build really isn't that effective underwater either way (most builds aren't, but that's a different problem with underwater combat...).

Trinkets

All Cleric's.The ascended Cleric backpiece is gotten by crafting either Quiver of a Thousand Arrows or There with Yakkington: A Traveler's Tale and choosing the Cleric affix. I'd recommend the later for its defensive infusion slot so that it is cheaper to place a healing infusion into the slot.

Low Levels-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Playing minion master is perhaps one of the easiest and most enjoyable builds to level up a necromancer with. Soft hitting enemies will rarely be downing your minions as you heal them up (after unlocking traits of course), and the build is very forgiving and easy in PvE.

Still though, before you start unlocking traits and stats that can heal your minions, they are going to die a lot. That's why, I recommend unlocking "Minion Master" for the reduced cooldowns right away, then going for 20 Death Magic for "Flesh of the Master" as soon as you can. It's pretty safe to go the glass cannon power armor stats as well since things will be easier. Staff and dagger/dagger would likely be your weapon sets for the very early levels, as the conditions from scepter/dagger need a lot of traits to function well and that you probably won't have because you're too low leveled or won't get because you're running a minion build.

*Will update soon*

END----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

As always, please don't be afraid to comment or make a suggestion below. Especially in the case that I need to update some information, as the game is constantly changing.
Thank you for reading my guide and I hope this helps you a lot. :)

SPECIAL THANKS TO THOSE WHO HAVE OFFERED CONSTRUCTIVE ADVICE OR SUGGESTED THINGS THAT I HAVE INTEGRATED INTO THE GUIDE (or was at one point in the guide)!

Mathog - Corrected some errors and false information that I had previously included
Miss Nightly - Suggested the use of scepter as a secondary weapon
Stellar - Suggested use the of axe/focus
Setharos - Started writing in my changes and updates per his suggestion
Reverse Ghost - Added an insightful post about stacking boon durations in order to utilize secondary weapon sets (axe/focus)
Phenn - for promoting my guide in his Introduction to the Necromancer guide
Pregnantman - for correcting my minion health stats

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Spoiler

Edited by OChunx, 16 April 2014 - 10:00 PM.


#2 Iycscuf

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 12:09 PM

nice guide but i would go for Power/precision/thoughness instead of Condition damage/precision/toughness because you will benefit more from it using double daggers. you can also swap some thoughness for critical damage since you already have your pets. A good set would be a mix of berserkers and knight.

#3 matsif

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 03:04 PM

generally a cookie-cutter MM build, but there are some problems I have with it:

why not use death nova?  your minions are most likely going to die in a big battle, and since the only minion heal in your build is mark of blood you might as well get them to do something when they do die.  bone fiend  probably won't ever get the heals anyways cause its ranged, blood fiend gets sacrificed if you draw aggro and get hit too much for the minions to heal you, minions do more damage when exploded and have a short cooldown, so its pointless to try to keep them alive in a 2-3 mob fight, especially if you take the 20% recharge of minions over 20% for the staff.

you have 0 condition removal right now, in a game where all HP degen is through conditions.  I could understand taking this in an area without a lot of conditions, but at least take spiteful removal for something to get rid of conditions, doing more damage while downed isn't really worth it imo.  besides, even with the absolutely terrible minion AI in this game, if your minions are working right you should never be downed unless they all die to a mass AOE or something.

#4 chronicler

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 07:27 PM

I can suggest such changes: http://gw2skills.net...jaTbSB3AHkC3LNA
But condition removal will be pain in boss/champions fights.

#5 OChunx

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 08:35 PM

View PostIycscuf, on 13 October 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

nice guide but i would go for Power/precision/thoughness instead of Condition damage/precision/toughness because you will benefit more from it using double daggers. you can also swap some thoughness for critical damage since you already have your pets. A good set would be a mix of berserkers and knight.

Yes, the double daggers would be better, however, you will rarely find yourself using them with all the healing you need to provide for your minions. As to swapping the toughness, it all comes down to personal choice. A minion master is very defensive, and I just prefer to play off it's strengths although it would also make perfect sense to try to combat it's weaknesses.

View Postmatsif, on 13 October 2012 - 03:04 PM, said:

generally a cookie-cutter MM build, but there are some problems I have with it:

why not use death nova?  your minions are most likely going to die in a big battle, and since the only minion heal in your build is mark of blood you might as well get them to do something when they do die.  bone fiend  probably won't ever get the heals anyways cause its ranged, blood fiend gets sacrificed if you draw aggro and get hit too much for the minions to heal you, minions do more damage when exploded and have a short cooldown, so its pointless to try to keep them alive in a 2-3 mob fight, especially if you take the 20% recharge of minions over 20% for the staff.

you have 0 condition removal right now, in a game where all HP degen is through conditions.  I could understand taking this in an area without a lot of conditions, but at least take spiteful removal for something to get rid of conditions, doing more damage while downed isn't really worth it imo.  besides, even with the absolutely terrible minion AI in this game, if your minions are working right you should never be downed unless they all die to a mass AOE or something.

As I said, the first trait in spite is pretty much your choice, so condition removal can go there (I'll update it per your suggestion). Conditions generally aren't much of a problem though because vitality greatly mitigates the threat of degen. Other than that I'm gonna have to point out that there is in fact 2 methods of condition removal in the build even without your suggestions. Deathly swarm on the offhand dagger and putrid mark on the staff...

As for death nova, the strength of a minion master in gw2 relies on your minions being alive. They will generally not be dying if you are healing them right, and the ones that will be dying are ironically the ranged ones since they won't be healed by mark of blood and won't hit with death nova anyway. Death nova just sucks, it's damage is okay but what is not okay is having your minions die. It was good in gw1 because bone minions recharged in 5 seconds and because of the amount of minions. In gw2, where each minion is more valuable and where the recharge is huge, death nova isn't worth it.

The thinking that it's going to "die anyway" isn't the right mindset when playing, unless you're in a dungeon or PvP/WvW

Edited by OChunx, 20 November 2012 - 04:45 AM.


#6 Mathog

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Posted 13 October 2012 - 09:33 PM

My internet connection is failing so I can't write a longer post now but:
- IX trait in Blood Magic (healing for 292 hp and sometimes it looks like I heal more than 5 allies around me) (does not work with Bloodthrist)
- Superior Rune of Dwayna (6) (healing in area for 5s, about 1k hp for minions) (both when summoning Blood Fiend and destroying it)
- Fetid Consumpion seems not working for me
All these Grandmaster traits are not worth taking for any MM build.

I will show you my build as soon as I am able to enter the game.

#7 OChunx

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 02:13 AM

View PostMathog, on 13 October 2012 - 09:33 PM, said:

My internet connection is failing so I can't write a longer post now but:
- IX trait in Blood Magic (healing for 292 hp and sometimes it looks like I heal more than 5 allies around me) (does not work with Bloodthrist)
- Superior Rune of Dwayna (6) (healing in area for 5s, about 1k hp for minions) (both when summoning Blood Fiend and destroying it)
- Fetid Consumpion seems not working for me
All these Grandmaster traits are not worth taking for any MM build.

I will show you my build as soon as I am able to enter the game.

Yea, I agree. That's why I list them as variants and not part of the main build, although I was not aware that fetid consumption was bugged. As for the runes, it's an interesting idea. The general rule for all rune sets though is that unless you want to use the special effects, crests/orbs are better. Just as a general rule, you should never want to kill off your minions, so in this case, I don't think it's worth killing blood fiend to heal everything, especially at the cost of both the minion and and near a hundred stat points that you sacrifice for the rune set.

Edited by OChunx, 14 October 2012 - 02:16 AM.


#8 snethss

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 05:08 AM

builds dont have to be set in stone.  I swith traits as needed.

MM can be fierce when the AI is playing along.  It's my preferred solo build for PvE.  Good damage and lazy.


The main switch i do is for healing.  Sometimes blood fiend just doesnt cut it.  No condition remove and lengthy delay on healing if it dies.  If it's steady damage against me, the amount of healing these pets can transfer is impressive.  It's just terrible for burst.

#9 Mathog

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 10:45 AM

I made a mistake:
- IX trait in BM heals for ~712, 292 is from VI trait

Ok, this is my build:
http://gw2skills.net...G7Nubk3scYEyOEA

Healing minions:
  • 2# Staff: Regen(6s): 1812 Heal
  • 4# Focus: Regen(3.5s): 906 Heal (and when you are close to the enemy you get 4x more, ~14s regen. Of course if you don't want to heal minions)**
  • Leaving Death Shroud: 712 Heal*
  • 4# Death Shroud: 292 Heal * 9
  • Destroying (or summoning!) Blood Fiend: Regen(6): 302 Heal * 7*
Healing myself:
  • all above except 4# Death Shroud
  • 2# Dagger: 257 * 9 (I use this very rarely)
  • destroying Blood Fiend: 5,336 Heal
  • 5. minor trait in Blood Magic (when hp reaches 90%, happens a lot)
  • 15. MT in Blood Magic (25 Heal per hit, includes skills so for example: Mark of Blood hit 5 enemies: +125 Heal)
  • 5. MT in Spite: ~300 Heal when kill something (don't feel that in battle)
  • switching weapons: 975 on first hit
With this build I can do pretty much everything in PvE and (with some changes) also in WvW.

I think traits are clear, but I'm not sure about III in Death Magic. It's stupid that Death Magic line has a lot of useful traits while others... are bad.
V and VI are useful as well but lack of III means:
- longer CD golem"s Charge
- longer Bone Minions CD (I always destroy them so it's important for me)
- longer Blood Fiend CD

Increased area of marks is useless in PvE since you can hit max 5 enemies. It's only helpful in W3.

The main problem is with Curses line and I trait (-50% fall damage). I want this build to be versatile, for PvE and WvW, so I had to put 10 points for useless crit. chance. For PvE I use IV trait but I still feel like I wasted 10 points :/ I could spend them for +10 for BM and VII trait (but I don't think it's very important) or +10 in DM and V or VI trait.

How to heal minions:
- enemies incoming
- staff 2, 3, 4
- enter DS and 3# 4#
- leave DS
- staff 2
- switch to a dagger and 4#
- spam 1# or whatever you want
- fast enter-leave DS
- repeat

I always have 1 or 2 seconds between cooldowns and then I use other skills such as 3#, minions and DS skills.

I hope you understood everything, ask me if you don't.

* - can heal out of combat
** - cannot heal out of combat which is stupid

Edited by Mathog, 14 October 2012 - 11:51 AM.


#10 OChunx

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 03:53 PM

View PostMathog, on 14 October 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

I made a mistake:
- IX trait in BM heals for ~712, 292 is from VI trait

Ok, this is my build:
http://gw2skills.net...G7Nubk3scYEyOEA

Healing minions:
  • 2# Staff: Regen(6s): 1812 Heal
  • 4# Focus: Regen(3.5s): 906 Heal (and when you are close to the enemy you get 4x more, ~14s regen. Of course if you don't want to heal minions)**
  • Leaving Death Shroud: 712 Heal*
  • 4# Death Shroud: 292 Heal * 9
  • Destroying (or summoning!) Blood Fiend: Regen(6): 302 Heal * 7*
Healing myself:
  • all above except 4# Death Shroud
  • 2# Dagger: 257 * 9 (I use this very rarely)
  • destroying Blood Fiend: 5,336 Heal
  • 5. minor trait in Blood Magic (when hp reaches 90%, happens a lot)
  • 15. MT in Blood Magic (25 Heal per hit, includes skills so for example: Mark of Blood hit 5 enemies: +125 Heal)
  • 5. MT in Spite: ~300 Heal when kill something (don't feel that in battle)
  • switching weapons: 975 on first hit
With this build I can do pretty much everything in PvE and (with some changes) also in WvW.

I think traits are clear, but I'm not sure about III in Death Magic. It's stupid that Death Magic line has a lot of useful traits while others... are bad.
V and VI are useful as well but lack of III means:
- longer CD golem"s Charge
- longer Bone Minions CD (I always destroy them so it's important for me)
- longer Blood Fiend CD

Increased area of marks is useless in PvE since you can hit max 5 enemies. It's only helpful in W3.

The main problem is with Curses line and I trait (-50% fall damage). I want this build to be versatile, for PvE and WvW, so I had to put 10 points for useless crit. chance. For PvE I use IV trait but I still feel like I wasted 10 points :/ I could spend them for +10 for BM and VII trait (but I don't think it's very important) or +10 in DM and V or VI trait.

How to heal minions:
- enemies incoming
- staff 2, 3, 4
- enter DS and 3# 4#
- leave DS
- staff 2
- switch to a dagger and 4#
- spam 1# or whatever you want
- fast enter-leave DS
- repeat

I always have 1 or 2 seconds between cooldowns and then I use other skills such as 3#, minions and DS skills.

I hope you understood everything, ask me if you don't.

* - can heal out of combat
** - cannot heal out of combat which is stupid

It looks good, although I personally wouldn't have put 10 into curses, not sure what your reasoning is there other than enfeebling blood combos with entering/leaving death shroud. If that's the case, I still think those 10 points are much better spent in death magic.

Also, do you have a source that marks can only hit 5 enemies? I use staff all the time in Orr where events have way more than 5 enemies and never have I had an issue of not hitting them all.

Lastly, "Minion Master" trait doesn't affect the cooldown of minion abilities at all. Only the cooldown of summoning the minion.

EDIT: AoE does cap at 5 enemies,I stand by greater marks for now (it literally doubles your radius and quadruples your area of healing for your minions), but I'll think about it for the future.

Edited by OChunx, 21 October 2012 - 04:08 AM.


#11 Mathog

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Posted 14 October 2012 - 04:03 PM

As I said, I don't want to retrain my traits every time I go WvW so I had to put 10 points in Curses to get I trait (-50% fall damage, it is very useful in W3).

As far as I know, all aoe skills works on max 5 enemies.

My bad, you can ignore the line about Golem's Charge but Blood Fiend and Bone Minions are still important.

#12 Native

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Posted 18 November 2012 - 08:37 AM

Question about the gear.

I'm currently using the carrion exotic set for my gear and I was saving up my gold to get the Khilbrons set as mentioned before these changes. I run dungeons alot as well as going solo when I'm not dungeoning, is it still worth it to go for the new Apothecary set instead of sticking with the dps set? My build is the 20 spite 30 death magic and 20 blood magic. My concern is being useful to my groups since there is still negativity floating around out there :( How much does the +healing really help the group?

Thanks :)

#13 Miss Nightly

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 07:47 AM

Nice guide there.

However, I think some small changes to the alt. weapons setup is needed:
http://gw2skills.net...XUFZKSUkVMnYSxA
This is an excellent way of getting rid of condition stacks, if you get hit by it :D
Also changed the leet to Lich, cos I just happen to love the skill.

#14 PinCushion

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 12:00 PM

Very nice guide.  Personally, I found it less cumbersome to simply not worry about my minions dying.  It freed me to build for damage/survival and discard a lot of +healing gear that I simply did not need.  Your mileage may vary.

#15 Khorii

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 06:46 PM

Is this a solo or a dungeon group guide?

Does the Apothecary set work well with dungeon groups?

Also, what runes/sigil are you useing for this setup?

@MissNightly - You do realize that when you enter Lich form it does kill all your minions correct? The whole point of a MM is to have your minions out, not to kill them :P

#16 Setharos

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Posted 19 November 2012 - 10:05 PM

one tip i could give you OP is detailing better your guide, most people will have zero idea of what changed from your previous post to your most recent.
About apothecary, for your weapon setup, i am pretty undecided about going for it vs cleric since the only viable condition attack you're gonna have is 2 and all the other staff skills have a huge cd. Anyway it wouldn't hurt having both sets.
Finally I would like to get some feedback on sigils and runes for your build, it would be nice too

Edited by Setharos, 19 November 2012 - 10:11 PM.


#17 chullster

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 04:15 AM

@Mathog

Does trait II Spiteful talisman work correctly now?

The wiki mentions it is bugged

#18 OChunx

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 05:11 AM

View PostNative, on 18 November 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

Question about the gear.

I'm currently using the carrion exotic set for my gear and I was saving up my gold to get the Khilbrons set as mentioned before these changes. I run dungeons alot as well as going solo when I'm not dungeoning, is it still worth it to go for the new Apothecary set instead of sticking with the dps set? My build is the 20 spite 30 death magic and 20 blood magic. My concern is being useful to my groups since there is still negativity floating around out there :( How much does the +healing really help the group?

Thanks :)

Khilbron's set is still the number one set for conditionmancers, however, I don't believe it as as useful with a minion master because of the wasted potential of precision. I personally think the apothecary set is definitely worth it for a minion master. The healing power will really help any members of your party that are within melee range, and maybe some of the casters if you are close enough since your mark of blood can affect party members. Although it doesn't scale off healing power, putrid mark also supports by taking conditions off allies.  

Although, I wouldn't place minion master up there as a good dungeon support build. Anywhere else and you will be an unstoppable tank that provides tons of healing. If you do intend to play in a dungeon, however, make sure to trade off greater marks for the minion master trait.


View PostMiss Nightly, on 19 November 2012 - 07:47 AM, said:

Nice guide there.

However, I think some small changes to the alt. weapons setup is needed:
http://gw2skills.net...XUFZKSUkVMnYSxA
This is an excellent way of getting rid of condition stacks, if you get hit by it :D
Also changed the leet to Lich, cos I just happen to love the skill.

Thanks for the scepter suggestion (even though I think you were implying you changed for offhand dagger, even though that was part of the original build). As mentioned before however, Lich kills off your minions. Even if it doesn't, I'd say Flesh Golem is still far superior, being that it is a minion and it does a great percentage of your overall single target damage.

As a side note, Lich is really only good for single target spikes. For AoE support go for Plague (spam blind to help your party; the straight up damage potential just isn't much). For minion masters, 100% Flesh Golem.


View PostSetharos, on 19 November 2012 - 10:05 PM, said:

one tip i could give you OP is detailing better your guide, most people will have zero idea of what changed from your previous post to your most recent.
About apothecary, for your weapon setup, i am pretty undecided about going for it vs cleric since the only viable condition attack you're gonna have is 2 and all the other staff skills have a huge cd. Anyway it wouldn't hurt having both sets.
Finally I would like to get some feedback on sigils and runes for your build, it would be nice too

Thanks for the tip. You're right, I'll try to do a better job with that. Yea, I see your concern with what you're saying with apothecary vs cleric. However, Chilblains also provides decent condition damage as well. I also mentioned that Mark of Blood should be your number 1 move that is spammed as soon as it's off cooldown, so the fact that other attacks don't benefit off condition damage should be greatly mitigated. Now if only minion power scaled off your own power...

Ahh yes, the sigils and upgrades. I actually had a part about it in the original guide, but I think I accidentally deleted it.

I still think it's best to try to stack as much healing power as possible, and for that, the only option seems to be to go with Sapphire Orbs. Runes of Dwayna do give more healing power, but you miss out on a much higher number of added stats overall.

If you think that this build is just too defensive (might not be to everyone's tastes), you can go with my original suggestion, which was to run Crests of the Rabid (++condition damage, +precision, +toughness) because it's very cheap in comparison to superior runes (about 2-3 silver if I remember correctly). Runes of the Undead are also cheap and add to the two vital stats of condition damage and toughness.

If you really, really want to waste money, you could also always buy 6 runes of divinity, which is basically all around good and good for every build, though this is probably the least recommended option.

Something to note, though, is that the "crest" or "orb" equivalents containing the apothecary affix may be released sometime soon (level 65 versions are already on the trade post). If this happens, switch over to this! There's really no set bonuses from runes that minion masters can benefit from.

View PostKhorii, on 19 November 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

Is this a solo or a dungeon group guide?

Does the Apothecary set work well with dungeon groups?

Also, what runes/sigil are you useing for this setup?

@MissNightly - You do realize that when you enter Lich form it does kill all your minions correct? The whole point of a MM is to have your minions out, not to kill them

It's a solo guide mostly. Minion master isn't bad for dungeons, although tweaks are needed and there are better alternatives.

I put in runes in sigils in the section above and the main guide. Thanks for pointing it out!

Edited by OChunx, 20 November 2012 - 05:56 AM.


#19 Miss Nightly

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 02:16 PM

Quote

Thanks for the scepter suggestion. (even though I think you were implying you changed for offhand dagger, even though that was part of the original build)
Yup, that was the idea. Didn't see the orig. build, so can't comment on that. Glad to see that we think roughly alike tho.

Quote

As mentioned before however, Lich kills off your minions.
True, but it's really an emergency option if your mins all get AoE'd / killed off at once. That way you can at least do a little conditioning during re-load. You have to admit, it#s a good bakcup.
Like you say a Flesh Golem is pretty tough now (big improvement on GW1) and it's your build :D

#20 Mathog

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 05:16 PM

View Postchullster, on 20 November 2012 - 04:15 AM, said:

@Mathog

Does trait II Spiteful talisman work correctly now?

The wiki mentions it is bugged
Yes, it is bugged for 4# skill on PvE but it doesn't really matter. 1200 range chill and removing 3 boons (the description lies when you have the II trait activated) is really important because this is the only boon removal this build has.

#21 OChunx

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 04:06 AM

Anyone have any suggestions on what else to add? Maybe make the guide easier to navigate? I'm sort of tired of seeing threads keep popping up about how to make minions work.

Also, anyone have feedback on my emphasis on healing power (apothecary set)? Seems like the unorthodox method and was just wondering if healing power is working out, or if rabid is still better.

#22 Setharos

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 05:37 PM

I see you listed the bone minion dps very low. Are you including the fact it attacks twice? I think its dps is kinda okay but its survivability is what worries me more, as you said, they are in fact the most focused minions if let alone. I am forced to spawn it sometimes in a complete opposite place from where i am going to be so i don't have to worry about it getting damaged since most of the time it will be out of reach of my blood mark, but still it can be easily killed by AoE fights or teammates going near where you summoned it. What about the bone minions dps from the explosion, are you counting it on the dps formula too? I mostly use them for that resource.

I currently run a build very similar to your guide, but using cleric, it does really well on dungeons and open pve activity since it allows me to tank a lot of damage  and get a lot of mitigation through 2900+ armor plus minion healing from blood traits and the blood fiend. Cleric in this case was what i preferred because some dungeon fights such as Lupicus(Arah) or Kholer(AC) the golem becomes completely useless and i can swap to lich and get some nice escalated damage from it, alas condition damage is kinda capped in this game due to the bleed cap limitation. But as I said before, it doesn't hurt having both sets(apothecary and cleric) since you can grab a full cleric set for almost 1g per piece(Menhlo set if i recall).

Other then that I gotta say you did a very nice update on your guide and I'd recommend people that want to go minion master to read your guide. Even if people end thinking minionmancer builds are not that useful, i would disagree and say it has somehow a fair spot for necros, also it is fun, and my guldies ask me to run dungeons as minionmancer due to the high relisience and mitigation I get from it, I can tank some bosses and some elite bosses for them without even DeathShrouding too much and they don't need to worry much about being chased, also there is the fact that conditionmancers can be capped and lose it's usefulness and damage at PvE depending on how many people controling conditions and doing condition damage are there nearby attacking too(ie:Dynamic Events and some group compositions) and an axe power build is still kinda meh due to axe still having so-so damage + somehow long cds from wells.

Overall all I gotta add for people is that knowing when and where you're gonna summon your minions is an important key to succeed as a minionmancer. I for one, alternate my worm and bone minions depending if i am clearing dungeon trash or controling a point/fighting a boss, also there is the advantage of not needing to explode the wurm for being able to swap the utility slot for the bone minions when out of combat. Which is a good thing. I prefere avoid summonion minions when i am skipping trash mobs or using them as bait to avoid fighting trash mobs too(their AI can kinda work that way too lol)

==========================
By the way i think the trait "Death into Life" in the Spite tree is bugged, but i can't confirm atm, at least last time i checked it wasn't updating my Healing Power tooltip.

Edited by Setharos, 01 December 2012 - 11:15 AM.


#23 OChunx

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 02:14 AM

View PostSetharos, on 30 November 2012 - 05:37 PM, said:

I see you listed the bone minion dps very low. Are you including the fact it attacks twice? I think its dps is kinda okay but its survivability is what worries me more, as you said, they are in fact the most focused minions if let alone. I am forced to spawn it sometimes in a complete opposite place from where i am going to be so i don't have to worry about it getting damaged since most of the time it will be out of reach of my blood mark, but still it can be easily killed by AoE fights or teammates going near where you summoned it. What about the bone minions dps from the explosion, are you counting it on the dps formula too? I mostly use them for that resource.

I currently run a build very similar to your guide, but using cleric, it does really well on dungeons and open pve activity since it allows me to tank a lot of damage  and get a lot of mitigation through 2900+ armor plus minion healing from blood traits and the blood fiend. Cleric in this case was what i preferred because some dungeon fights such as Lupicus(Arah) or Kholer(AC) the golem becomes completely useless and i can swap to lich and get some nice escalated damage from it, alas condition damage is kinda capped in this game due to the bleed cap limitation. But as I said before, it doesn't hurt having both sets(apothecary and cleric) since you can grab a full cleric set for almost 1g per piece(Menhlo set if i recall).

Other then that I gotta say you did a very nice update on your guide and I'd recommend people that want to go minion master to read your guide. Even if people end thinking minionmancer builds are not that useful, i would disagree and say it has somehow a fair spot for necros, also it is fun, and my guldies ask me to run dungeons as minionmancer due to the high relisience and mitigation I get from it, I can tank some bosses and some elite bosses for them without even DeathShrouding too much and they don't need to worry much about being chased, also there is the fact that conditionmancers can be capped and lose it's usefulness and damage at PvE depending on how many people controling conditions and doing condition damage are there nearby attacking too(ie:Dynamic Events and some group compositions) and an axe power build is still kinda meh due to axe still having so-so damage + somehow long cds from wells.

Overall all I gotta add for people is that knowing when and where you're gonna summon your minions is an important key to succeed as a minionmancer. I for one, alternate my worm and bone minions depending if i am clearing dungeon trash or controling a point/fighting a boss, also there is the advantage of not needing to explode the wurm for being able to swap the utility slot for the bone minions when out of combat. Which is a good thing. I prefere avoid summonion minions when i am skipping trash mobs or using them as bait to avoid fighting trash mobs too(their AI can kinda work that way too lol)

==========================
By the way i think the trait "Death into Life" in the Spite tree is bugged, but i can't confirm atm, at least last time i checked it wasn't updating my Healing Power tooltip.

Yea, the bone fiend damage does look kind of funny, I just compared damage really quickly between the bone fiend and the bone minions, and it looked like even though bone fiend attacked for less, it did hit two times and and attacked faster than the minions, so at the very least its DPS should be higher than the minions. The DPS listed was taken during the BWE and not by me, so it might be so out of date that it would warrant a removal from the guide.

I see what you're saying with preferring cleric over apothecary. Cleric is definitely better than apothecary in large group dynamic events, but the days of Orr zergs are over and its hard to justify going power over condition damage when hitting the bleed cap will never be an issue when you are soloing PvE and will rarely be an issue in dungeons, unless there's another necro or some earth-bleed elementalists (I think they bleed, correct me if I'm wrong). Focusing on condition damage also opens up the option to use scepter for the secondary set (though it's equally valid that focusing on power makes D/D secondary better), not to mention the skill that you spam most, mark of blood, derives about 90% of its damage from bleeding. Even though many of the other staff skills don't benefit of condition damage, their cooldowns are too long anyway to add effectively to DPS.

Knowing when to summon sounds like great advice. Would you care to elaborate on it a bit more? I just didn't entirely get what you were trying to say. I for one basically just summon my minions as soon as they come off cooldown, unless I'm trying to run somewhere fast and/or don't want aggro. Maybe I can add it into a "tips" section of the guide. Of course, I'm gonna credit you with that bit.

I don't know if Death into Life is bugged; it could be working. It's not listed as a bug in the master necromancer bug compilation: https://forum-en.gui...n-NB44-NT18-NP7. My guess is that it is functioning like the guardian trait "Strength in Numbers" right now. The stat on the hero menu isn't updated (not like healing power even has a stat tab on there so I'm not sure what you mean by not updating on your tooltip), but no one knows for sure that it isn't working either.

Edited by OChunx, 02 December 2012 - 02:21 AM.


#24 Relair

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 03:48 AM

I think he meant leaving bone fiend ready to summon until he arrived at his destination because it dies so much, and using bone minions for clearing trash/running around, and swapping them for flesh wurm on boss fights. I do that too, the minions die before they even get in exploding range half the time, and the wurm keeps plugging away at max range and rarely dies, and is a nice escape valve too.

#25 OChunx

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 07:06 AM

The first thing makes sense, but I only see the value of switching to flesh wurm in dungeons or champion dynamic events. Your bone minions would preferably not be down for the quick skill switch, in which case you would have to wait 20 seconds to switch to wurm after you blow them up.

Since minions should be up most of the time if you're doing a good job healing them, biding your time before resummoning shouldn't be occurring too often, although it makes sense for bone fiend since he dies so much.

As a side note, I was just checking the prices of full exotic apothecary today, and it seems unreachable for basically 95% of the population. I might just stop recommending it because of how expensive it is. >_> Seriously!? 160 Gold for just the armor, jewelry, and staff!? How is this not grinding for max stats? The way I see it, Anet released the game with recipes, npc prices, etc. assuming long-term inflation, screwing over everyone playing in the short term.

Edited by OChunx, 02 December 2012 - 04:43 PM.


#26 Relair

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Posted 02 December 2012 - 06:23 PM

Its a joke, I've spent so much time and money crafting apothecary staff and armor set (only one piece left!), I could have bought sets of other varieties of lvl 80 exotics for every alt lol. But the jewelry..the jewelry is on a whole other level of grind. Its insane. I have probably 400 fruits from passiflora, and I've gotten 1 flower, ever. I get gems like every other time I mine something along with the ore..something is wrong with that picture. It costs so much more than every other jewelry for the exact same total stat distribution, and its not even a cosmetic thing because you can't even see it... Come on anet, I know you want us to buy stupid consortium chests for the flowers but this is like blackmail. Maybe I'll just stick with shaman or rabid jewelry, bleh.

Edited by Relair, 02 December 2012 - 06:23 PM.


#27 chullster

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 11:01 AM

I've made a full Clerics set like Mathog uses and tried his build too, though not in WvW, so this is where perhaps they perform differently.

I have to say after buying/crafting it all, having healing as top stat does seem something of a waste.

Before I made the clerics stuff I found either I blow them up, they self-heal (Rockdog summon included), are ranged so hardly take damage or get one shot by a champion. Only once in a blue moon do I have to replace them in standard PvE fighting. So I found the new extra powerful healing wasn't needed.

Because of this I'm think of switch to berserkers armour and knights/clerics accessories. Minions let you get away with being more squishy, thus pump more damage. I do like the Dagger/focus +staff combo though. Thanks, mathog :D

I might also drop the trait for 20% less on minion skill recharge as it seems a bit of a waste too.

I like the +DMG for minions, and the trait that makes them heal you.

I have 6 runes of the Ogre btw, as I want as big an army as possible, and the RockDog shows up quite quickly and regularly, unlike the demon summoning sigil. I've kept one sigil of DS in case they fix the bug. Plus the runes boost power more.

I saw a post saying use minions, but dont trait for them, and go glass cannon as they provide plenty of distraction, traited for it, (didn't change armour etc) and found this to be a good idea, though I will not use his 30/30/10/0/0 build as I want my MM build power based.

So far the only method i've found as MM to grant might or other dmg buffs to my minions is with charr skill "Battle Roar"
any other methods to boost near by allies damage for a necro?

Still not got to the end of trying combinations, but I feel I can see light at the end of the tunnel.

#28 OChunx

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 09:54 PM

View Postchullster, on 03 December 2012 - 11:01 AM, said:

I've made a full Clerics set like Mathog uses and tried his build too, though not in WvW, so this is where perhaps they perform differently.

I have to say after buying/crafting it all, having healing as top stat does seem something of a waste.

Before I made the clerics stuff I found either I blow them up, they self-heal (Rockdog summon included), are ranged so hardly take damage or get one shot by a champion. Only once in a blue moon do I have to replace them in standard PvE fighting. So I found the new extra powerful healing wasn't needed.

Because of this I'm think of switch to berserkers armour and knights/clerics accessories. Minions let you get away with being more squishy, thus pump more damage. I do like the Dagger/focus +staff combo though. Thanks, mathog :D

I might also drop the trait for 20% less on minion skill recharge as it seems a bit of a waste too.

I like the +DMG for minions, and the trait that makes them heal you.

I have 6 runes of the Ogre btw, as I want as big an army as possible, and the RockDog shows up quite quickly and regularly, unlike the demon summoning sigil. I've kept one sigil of DS in case they fix the bug. Plus the runes boost power more.

I saw a post saying use minions, but dont trait for them, and go glass cannon as they provide plenty of distraction, traited for it, (didn't change armour etc) and found this to be a good idea, though I will not use his 30/30/10/0/0 build as I want my MM build power based.

So far the only method i've found as MM to grant might or other dmg buffs to my minions is with charr skill "Battle Roar"
any other methods to boost near by allies damage for a necro?

Still not got to the end of trying combinations, but I feel I can see light at the end of the tunnel.

What were you using before that you were blowing stuff up with?

It looks like you're building for a power necromancer build by your armor/rune choices, with minions thrown in. I know you want to support allies as well, but I think I tried to make the point that to be a minion master, you really do need all minions and there's very little room for deviation in that respect. I suppose though, that your armor combinations don't matter that much, as the only vital stat I've been emphasizing is healing power (although imo condition damage is much better than power and precision), which I'd like to hear more opinions on (like yours). But like I said in the guide as well, minion masters excel at defense, and I like to trait/stat to those strengths.

It'd be interesting to see if anyone's done some testing to see how much healing power affects mark of blood to see if it's really useful or not. To me, something's better than nothing and many other stats (like precision) are practically nothing.

EDIT: Nvm. Healing from Mark of Blood is based on the normal regeneration formula, which is 5 + (1.5625 * Level) + (.125 * Healing Power) per second

A Mark of Blood with base healing power would heal for 650 over 5 seconds (not counting death magic boon duration). A Mark of Blood with the build described in the guide (full apothecary + staff + jewelry, 20 in blood magic, death into life trait, 6 sapphire orbs, death magic +30% boon duration, which is an additional 1210* healing power on top of the base 0) would heal for 1828.125 health over 6.5 seconds according to this formula. That is a massive increase if my math is right, and would definitely justify using healing power.

This wouldn't completely apply to your build though, because you naturally trait in about 300 healing power from death into life and the blood magic line. This is just to show that healing power makes a large difference in regeneration in general.

*Forgot to factor in a lot of things as well actually, the upgrades on the jewelry, superior sigil of life, backpiece, I'll probably redo the calculation later as part of the guide

Also, if "Death into Life" actually works, then Clerics may become better than Apothecary. As it is right now, a lot of people already prefer power over condition damage, and although condition damage probably still does more damage, all that added power will give a real boost to healing power. Not to mention full exotic cleric costs 140+ gold less than full exotic apothecary...

So guys, Cleric or Apothecary?

Edited by OChunx, 04 December 2012 - 12:00 AM.


#29 Relair

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 04:40 AM

Seeing as mark of blood/chillblains and minions are the vast majority of my damage I'd hate to go clerics, the drop in cond dmg is huge. I'm debating whether to switch corruption sigil to the healing one, life I think it is..another 250 healing power would be nice but thats a giant chunk of damage I'd be missing out on.  I'm trying to get healing to the point where the mark of blood regen can keep a jagged horror alive indefinitely, but I don't think its going to be quite possible yet even with every piece of optimal gear. Getting closer though!

Edited by Relair, 04 December 2012 - 04:41 AM.


#30 chullster

chullster

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Posted 04 December 2012 - 09:18 AM

View PostOChunx, on 03 December 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

What were you using before that you were blowing stuff up with?

I meant blowing up the bone minions, I should have been more clear.

I made the clerics armour, trinkets and was about to complete the cleric weapons to match it, replacing a berserker dagger and staff. I noticed as I made the armour and swapped over, my damage went down quite a lot, so fights where minions just stand about took ages. Then I noticed how rare it was to have a minion actually die, and thought "Why should I make more clerics stuff for even more healing power?" so I swapped all my traits for 30/30/10/0/0 glass cannon, and camped my dagger and focus.

BTW I have a set of armour/trinkets for condition damage, and have tried them too as MM,  but I miss BiP and epidemic, they are too good not to use with a cond. dmg build. Also I don't want use Death Shroud when I play as MM as I can't see my skills, and have no traits to boost or utilise it better.

I use the landing area of the Karka island to test changes, so I always have the same control group. After going full bore glass I found the minions were at nearly the same state as when I had 1400 healing, one is injured or dead the rest are just fine.

I'm trying to make my MM build keeping in mind that the minions AI is bugged and they can just stand around sometimes as you know, so relying on them for damage alone is not a good idea, as a supplement damage source, they're awesome.

Another major problem I found and has been mentioned is condition removal. "On a necro?" I hear you say, but most of our best condition stuff is for when in combat and involves dumping ours onto an enemy. I'm not sure necros have an out of combat condition removal, other than one of the wells and consume conditions heal skill.

I love spiteful removal, but it's no good in the middle of a fight, and at first spite trait I like the reduce CD on focus skills, so more cond removal is needed....

Last night I tried 20/0/20/30/0 and fetid consumption, went to the mists, as I heard it had bugs, to test it. Summoned 2 minions, golem and fiend, and used skills to put conditions on myself and waited to see if they were removed.

Good news: they were removed
Bad news: after trying it in combat, it just takes too long for the conditions to be cleaned, with 7 minions (not including the jagged horror)  I still had weakness on me for most of its duration. For a GM level trait, and one that forces me to give up "closer to Death" I expect much better, like the old GW1 bond skill. Back to 30/0/20/20/0 then...

I'm leaning now towards dagger/focus on one weapon set, then a second dagger in the offhand for 2nd weapon set. "Blasphemy! no staff?" I hear you say, well if I only have 20 points in death, and I like to blow up my minions, then I need the 20%CD on minion skills, and I like the 50% more health on them now I am dropping healing power, so that's no room for big sized marks and staff CD reduction. That means in blood line first trait is now 15% CD reduction for dagger skills.In a fight, I stack vuln. on target from focus and go at them with dagger, "oh no! I got weakness on me!" before I would go to staff and use #4 to move, now I swap, use dagger 4 instead and still be on my primary damage weapon in MH, not breaking the flow of battle so much as being stuck on staff when I don't want to be.

However, I change that if I go to a dungeon and use wells/marks instead of minions, the traits are handy as they're free to swap between MM and wells setup.

TL;DR : setting up for healing as primary stat seems (so far) a waste on an MM, due to minions being buggy and not dying that often that they cant be quickly replaced. Make sure you pump out enough damage even if all your minions are stood around or dead. I prefer power build to cond. damage as you lose some very good utility skills from a cond. build if you take minions, so wouldn't be as powerful as a full cond. dmg necro.

I'll get round to making a separate thread with my conclusions once I'm settled in with gear/stats.

Edited by chullster, 04 December 2012 - 09:44 AM.





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