170 replies to this topic

[Sithicus Dias]

Hey folks, the OP has been face lifted. It's much better organized than before. Build ideas for Vigorous Greatsword and Control have been removed, since the original Banner build I devised bore too much similarities to Vigorous Greatsword to be worth considering separately. In additional, most offensive discussion has been redirected to Sonic Boon. Control was omitted because the most effective control is achieved by Weapon Skills, which can mesh with Banners or Shouts, rather than operating as a separate entity.

Most significantly though, I've added a lot of explanation about Support as a Mindset, rather than a mere set of gear and traits. As such, the leading information talk about the theory behind support, this is all new, do have a read

[Brand]

Awesome, read the whole thing.

Only thing I might suggest is remarking that the VS build DOES give party-wide BOONS. Also, the effects of BoStr and BoDisc can surely be replicated via FGJ and OMM (Respectively). I would take this to mean that the only advantages for Boons/buffs when regarding IBS v. VS are the BoDef and BoComp, which both provide nothing in the DPS spectrum (Which IBS is more suited for). However, as you did say in my thread, you could take any three of BoDisc, BoStr, OMM and FGJ or something similar and end up with more damage benefiting party buffs.

Just saying that the part boons that the VS build gives your group are nearly on par with the damaging buffs from an IBS build, and should not be forgotten about.

[Sithicus Dias]

Brand, on 02 December 2012 - 05:08 AM, said:

Only thing I might suggest is remarking that the VS build DOES give party-wide BOONS. Also, the effects of BoStr and BoDisc can surely be replicated via FGJ and OMM (Respectively). I would take this to mean that the only advantages for Boons/buffs when regarding IBS v. VS are the BoDef and BoComp, which both provide nothing in the DPS spectrum (Which IBS is more suited for). However, as you did say in my thread, you could take any three of BoDisc, BoStr, OMM and FGJ or something similar and end up with more damage benefiting party buffs.

Just saying that the part boons that the VS build gives your group are nearly on par with the damaging buffs from an IBS build, and should not be forgotten about.

But the Boons you get from FGJ are fairly negligible in the long run, and is limited to what you can do with FGJ, and to some extent Empower Allies. It doesn't spread any defensive boons like Protection or Aegis or anything along those lines. Plus, the effects of FGJ + OMM don't match the effectiveness of Banners. In theory OMM is nice for the duration of 10 Vulnerability, but it's limited to a singe mob, so it's effects go largely unnoticed, plus a Boss will naturally shake the vulnerability off much faster. I think what I need to go back and do is make it clear that VS cannot provide boons as well as it can provide Healing, Condition Damage and Control as mechanisms of support.

[KrayZ33]

people forget:

1. FGJ's 600 range (the heal too? I don't know for sure)
which is not even as much as LB #3 offers (only 66%), have you seen that circle?... its pretty much nothing and you really have to run to your m8s and stand right next to them

missing a shout means missing a heal, missing a heal is what you don't want because it will make your heal worse than Banner-heal

2. OMM is, damage wise, useless on bosses, how long does it last on them? not very long, you can pretty much forget about the damage increase and just take it to heal its also pretty much useless everywhere else because its single target.

3. Buff duration works not only for you, but for everyone
+ might duration works for everyone I'm buffing, MY buff duration counts when I'M buffing them, it doesn't matter whether they have +0% duration or +100%

thus BS is surely more effective during boss fights than SoR can ever get especially with mentioned trinity runes
and especially in fractals, thats where your elite skills count, you don't see mesmer speed-hax bubbles on trash that often too, heck you could just swap right before a boss, because SoR has such a low cooldown, if you know your stuff, you know when you are about to encounter a boss and how long it will take you to get there

and lets not forget how bosses are done most of the time, especially in higher fractals, I don't think everyone stands right next to them, in fact I believe everyone should add up immobilize and kite them , which improves banners effective over shouts even more, greater range, more freedom in utilities (throw bolas) and BS offers swiftness for *everyone*


conclusion: shouts offer (burst) heal, condition removal (meh to be honest) and stun break (awesome), banners offer defense, offense, heal on par with shouts (regeneration will hit everyone unlike your shouts) and one random utility slot...(condition removal/stun break/root)



and consider this

2 warriors each running SoR in a group are stupid
2 warriors each running BS will offer close to 100% uptime - fury, up to 7 stacks of might and swiftness to everyone and not just 2/5 , are cool

Edited by KrayZ33, 02 December 2012 - 05:10 PM.

[Sithicus Dias]

OMM is not there for any kind of damage buff, it's purely for a short cooldown heal.

As for two warriors running Battle Standard. It lasts 65 seconds, cools down at 192 seconds (traited). 2x65 does not equal 192. the 130 seconds you can keep a BS up still leaves about a minute of downtime, so your argument is not strictly true. However with two Warriors, i'd already consider using BS more often, but since I run Vigorous Shouts (and two Banner Warriors i nigh on useless) I'd have an untraited Battle Standard. Therefore, 130 seconds of BS, my BS would still have 110 seconds on cooldown, and my ally would still have a minute cooldown. I do agree with you about swapping just before a boss, that's the only time I ever do it.

I realise that people don't cluster around the boss continually, but most of the time you don't NEED to heal everyone either, there's no harm in healing someone adjacent to you who got hit pretty badly. I'm not intending this build to come across as a Warrior running around his allies and Shouting when needed. As I stressed in the OP, Heals are supplementary, they aren't meant to completely carry the team.

Condition removal is "meh" ? So, having Bleeding, Poison, Burn zapped off you is just "meh"? I'm pretty sure most people wouldn't say not to that. Seeing an ally with, for example, many stacks of bleed is exactly the time you should help them out and remove it.

[KrayZ33]

condition removal is "meh", because first - consider what you have to give up for it, consider what other party members offer and consider where you are getting those conditions from

why does someone have a high duration condition in the first place? because the same debuff appears again and again and again every 2-3 seconds, a well timed condition removal from that person himself, is more effective than anything else, if he wants to use his #6 he has to get rid of poison himself because you can't possibly know his cooldowns and time it

Quote

I'm not intending this build to come across as a Warrior running around his allies and Shouting when needed. As I stressed in the OP, Heals are supplementary, they aren't meant to completely carry the team.

and yet there is a huge spreadsheet about whether banner heal is stronger/weaker than 2 or 3 shouts etc.
no one eve thought about that 2 banners can pretty much cover the whole boss/fight, they are basically fire and forget abilities, while shouts only heal on a very small radius around you (I don't know the exact healing range, correct me if i'm wrong)


you even take OOM even though heal is supplementary, and all OOM offers IS the heal, while other things offer the ability to stop damage/reduce it or deal damage.

Edited by KrayZ33, 03 December 2012 - 05:16 AM.

[Sithicus Dias]

KrayZ33, on 03 December 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

and yet there is a huge spreadsheet about whether banner heal is stronger/weaker than 2 or 3 shouts etc.
no one eve thought about that 2 banners can pretty much cover the whole boss/fight, they are basically fire and forget abilities, while shouts only heal on a very small radius around you (I don't know the exact healing range, correct me if i'm wrong)

Some people find the mathematical side of things interesting (especially myself). Plus, i'm in the process of re-writing that post too, since it's a bit disorganized about the point I'm trying to make with it.

You're throwing a lot of criticisms at Shouts for having a 600 radius, and yet that's exactly the same radius as Banners. Inspiring Banners increases this radius from 600 to 900 (at least it seems to be roughly that). Aside from the fact that Banners allow it so that you are not the epicentre of the buff, the difference in range is not as significant as your argument would suggest.

As far as condition damage goes, what exactly am I giving up? I'm already playing Vigorous Shouts, choosing offensive runes would not make an overly significant difference to my damage. The Toughness/Vit on soldier runes fits nicely in with my (already) defensive spec.  You're right about a condition re-applying itself, but I like to think if you're "standing in the fire" you might think to get out of it, and then I can remove the Burning. Like I say, it's about knowing when to use your Shouts properly, not just using them all at once.

KrayZ33, on 03 December 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

if he wants to use his #6 he has to get rid of poison himself because you can't possibly know his cooldowns and time it

Well, the party window shows conditions, and I can physically SEE where the ally in question is, so that's not really a legitimate argument.

KrayZ33, on 03 December 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

and yet there is a huge spreadsheet about whether banner heal is stronger/weaker than 2 or 3 shouts etc.
no one eve thought about that

If nobody had thought about/was interested in the maths behind it, it wouldn't have so many Views/Replies to it, naturally some are interested, some aren't. Clearly you are not, which is fine. However I've pretty much had to write this entire response to you dispelling conjecture, rather than legitimate arguments.

[Brand]

KrayZ33, on 02 December 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

people forget:

1. FGJ's 600 range (the heal too? I don't know for sure)
which is not even as much as LB #3 offers (only 66%), have you seen that circle?... its pretty much nothing and you really have to run to your m8s and stand right next to them

1.5) missing a shout means missing a heal, missing a heal is what you don't want because it will make your heal worse than Banner-heal

2. OMM is, damage wise, useless on bosses, how long does it last on them? not very long, you can pretty much forget about the damage increase and just take it to heal its also pretty much useless everywhere else because its single target.

3. Buff duration works not only for you, but for everyone
+ might duration works for everyone I'm buffing, MY buff duration counts when I'M buffing them, it doesn't matter whether they have +0% duration or +100%

thus BS is surely more effective during boss fights than SoR can ever get especially with mentioned trinity runes
and especially in fractals, thats where your elite skills count, you don't see mesmer speed-hax bubbles on trash that often too, heck you could just swap right before a boss, because SoR has such a low cooldown, if you know your stuff, you know when you are about to encounter a boss and how long it will take you to get there

and lets not forget how bosses are done most of the time, especially in higher fractals, I don't think everyone stands right next to them, in fact I believe everyone should add up immobilize and kite them , which improves banners effective over shouts even more, greater range, more freedom in utilities (throw bolas) and BS offers swiftness for *everyone*


conclusion: shouts offer (burst) heal, condition removal (meh to be honest) and stun break (awesome), banners offer defense, offense, heal on par with shouts (regeneration will hit everyone unlike your shouts) and one random utility slot...(condition removal/stun break/root)



and consider this

2 warriors each running SoR in a group are stupid
2 warriors each running BS will offer close to 100% uptime - fury, up to 7 stacks of might and swiftness to everyone and not just 2/5 , are cool

1) The range listed on Arcing Arrow is how far you can shoot it, not how big the AoE circle is.
1.5) And with Regen you are constantly over healing, moving in and out of banner range, and supplying all of your healing via a boon that many others can provide. The only time VS is wasted is if you miss, Regen is wasted every time it ticks at full health, any time you are running with an ele or guardian, etc and every time it "misses" (You out range it)
2) OMM works fine for mobs other than bosses? It also works fine ON bosses.
3) We already know about buff duration and it's effect on allies, and yes placing two battle standards would give us the buffs for permenent (Not might!), however that is only if you and the other guy have increased boon duration, and 2 banner warriors aren't effective at all, least of all with boon duration (Since regen is constant already, and banners don't apply boons).

He also does not lose anything when he gains that condition removal.
You say that all OMM offers is a heal... Not true at all, it offers team support via vulnerability, it removes a condition, it's on a short CD, AND it heals.
You know what does everything OMM does in this build? An untraited SIO + OMM + 2400(Multiplied per ally) healing (A third or more of a profession healing skill by itself, when multiplied, it's huge.)

[Mr_Finesse]

I don't believe i've seen this discussed yet regarding the VS build, but is there any viability with going with a set of Magi armor (healing/prec/vit) rather than the Cleric's? I'm a cheapskate and it seems like I could more easily get my hands on a set of exotic Magi.

[KrayZ33]

1) okay
1.5) no one cares about overheal, srsly, the weakness about banner-regen is that it doesn't burst heal, no heal on demand so to say, which is why VS even exists if you fail to land that heal when you or someone else needs it then that's a really bad thing.
you pop your heals for player 1, yet 5 seconds later player 2 needs them

2) no, it really doesn't,
3) you don't have to spend 30 points into tactics to go for 2 BSs, I believe pretty much every warrior has at least 10 points in tactics, that sufficient

4) see 2)
and
its a ~1200-1400 heal (everything else is "to many stats spent on Healing Power", thats ~300hp/s at its best btw) the condition removal takes up 6 rune slots, for something you rarerly really need, combo fields can do just as good, do you use your shouts to get rid of conditions? I don't think so, its a side effect that sometimes happens to negate some damage, and somtimes not - at best

Quote

You're throwing a lot of criticisms at Shouts for having a 600 radius, and yet that's exactly the same radius as Banners. Inspiring Banners increases this radius from 600 to 900 (at least it seems to be roughly that). Aside from the fact that Banners allow it so that you are not the epicentre of the buff, the difference in range is not as significant as your argument would suggest.

its not only about the range, its about how I can move around during a boss fight and do what I have to do without having to worry whether my group m8 gets my heal or not.

Quote

As far as condition damage goes, what exactly am I giving up? I'm already playing Vigorous Shouts, choosing offensive runes would not make an overly significant difference to my damage.

your are limiting yourself, you don't have any alternatives, you can't even swap utility skills around because
that would just destroy your whole build....

Quote

Well, the party window shows conditions, and I can physically SEE where the ally in question is, so that's not really a legitimate argument.

so you are wasting the heal, huh, unless he has like 5 conditions or something like that, you are better off letting him tend to his own wounds


mah... whatever

Edited by KrayZ33, 03 December 2012 - 05:57 PM.

[Sithicus Dias]

KrayZ33, on 03 December 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

1) okay
1.5) no one cares about overheal, srsly, the weakness about banner-regen is that it doesn't burst heal, no heal on demand so to say, which is why VS even exists if you fail to land that heal when you or someone else needs it then that's a really bad thing.
you pop your heals for player 1, yet 5 seconds later player 2 needs them

2) no, it really doesn't,
3) you don't have to spend 30 points into tactics to go for 2 BSs, I believe pretty much every warrior has at least 10 points in tactics, that sufficient

4) see 2)
and
its a ~1200-1400 heal (everything else is "to many stats spent on Healing Power", thats ~300hp/s at its best btw) the condition removal takes up 6 rune slots, for something you rarerly really need, combo fields can do just as good, do you use your shouts to get rid of conditions? I don't think so, its a side effect that sometimes happens to negate some damage, and somtimes not - at best




its not only about the range, its about how I can move around during a boss fight and do what I have to do without having to worry whether my group m8 gets my heal or not.



your are limiting yourself, you don't have any alternatives, you can't even swap utility skills around because
that would just destroy your whole build....



so you are wasting the heal, huh, unless he has like 5 conditions or something like that, you are better off letting him tend to his own wounds


mah... whatever

Congratulations on another post full of conjecture. You're dismissing things by making grandiose assumptions, and failing to even respond to a suggested point of discussion. I want people to talk, create ideas, not sit on the sidelines saying "this won't work" and then when asked why, remaining notably silent.

Mr_Finesse, on 03 December 2012 - 04:51 PM, said:

I don't believe i've seen this discussed yet regarding the VS build, but is there any viability with going with a set of Magi armor (healing/prec/vit) rather than the Cleric's? I'm a cheapskate and it seems like I could more easily get my hands on a set of exotic Magi.

That's an interesting idea, I hadn't really thought of it to be honest. Naturally the Healing Power would remain largely the same. Precision is interesting because it would allow you to viably use Sigils that have valuable "on-crit" bonuses. Those types of sigils I find myself avoiding simply because their true potential won't be met by using Clerics. My only reservation of course is the Vitality, since I believe it's more effective to have better damage reduction. However, if you do decide to get that armour set, I'd really like it if you could share your experiences with us, I could be wrong in my condemning of Vitality

Edited by Sithicus Dias, 03 December 2012 - 08:20 PM.

[Mr_Finesse]

Sithicus Dias, on 03 December 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

That's an interesting idea, I hadn't really thought of it to be honest. Naturally the Healing Power would remain largely the same. Precision is interesting because it would allow you to viably use Sigils that have valuable "on-crit" bonuses. Those types of sigils I find myself avoiding simply because their true potential won't be met by using Clerics. My only reservation of course is the Vitality, since I believe it's more effective to have better damage reduction. However, if you do decide to get that armour set, I'd really like it if you could share your experiences with us, I could be wrong in my condemning of Vitality

I'll definitely give this a shot in the coming weeks because I tend to favor precision in my build.  I'm really attached to the rifle and the precision line in general which is another reason I wanted to potentially go this way.  The cheapness of Magi armor just helps that fact.

The Vitality vs. Toughness part is my main concern as well.  I'm thinking to offset this wil Cleric and/or Shaman accessories.  I want a good balance between vitality and toughness, so we'll see what happens.

The sigil idea is also a good call.  From what i've seen, most of the worthwhile sigils for this build are non "critical chance" dependent.  I.E. Superior Life.



(http://gw2skills.net...ssZ5ySm1qhRD7EA)
^------- with Magi armor...potentially

[Venereus]

Mr_Finesse, on 03 December 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

I'll definitely give this a shot in the coming weeks because I tend to favor precision in my build.  I'm really attached to the rifle and the precision line in general which is another reason I wanted to potentially go this way.  The cheapness of Magi armor just helps that fact.

The Vitality vs. Toughness part is my main concern as well.  I'm thinking to offset this wil Cleric and/or Shaman accessories.  I want a good balance between vitality and toughness, so we'll see what happens.

The sigil idea is also a good call.  From what i've seen, most of the worthwhile sigils for this build are non "critical chance" dependent.  I.E. Superior Life.



(http://gw2skills.net...ssZ5ySm1qhRD7EA)
^------- with Magi armor...potentially

Since Vitality is mostly used to counter conditions and the Soldier runes make shouts laugh at them, I tend to favor Toughness over Vitality. Hope that helps.

[Brand]

KrayZ33, on 03 December 2012 - 05:29 PM, said:

no one cares about overheal, srsly.

its a ~1200-1400 heal (everything else is "to many stats spent on Healing Power", thats ~300hp/s at its best btw) the condition removal takes up 6 rune slots, for something you rarerly really need, combo fields can do just as good, do you use your shouts to get rid of conditions? I don't think so, its a side effect that sometimes happens to negate some damage, and somtimes not - at best

your are limiting yourself, you don't have any alternatives, you can't even swap utility skills around because
that would just destroy your whole build...

Okay, you do realize that being out of range of a target and overhealing a target are exactly the same thing? In both instances you do no healing. You were commenting about shouts being out of range and the heals then being ineffective. Therefore, you are saying that you care about the heals not working, and therefore overhealing is encompassed by your point and very much matters.

Ahahaha, no. It's a 1200 heal at base, it's a 1400 heal with Sonic Boon (Which is 260 HP currently). A build like Sithicus' does not have 1200-1400 Heals, it has 1200-1400 Healing Power. At 1400 Healing Power your shouts heal for (1400*.8)+1192 = 2312 which is very close to my approximation of 2400.

In regards to the section of your post I made bold: You do understand that this is a Support thread right? With Support builds? No amount of Healing Power is gratuitous here, all of it benefits the concept of the build.

In regards to your last statement, any good build does have stable utilities, just as it has stable traits. An important part about a successful, optimal build, is that it does something unique and it has synergy. A hodgepodge of random skills and traits and you end up with a build like Red_Falcons... Simply not effective.

Edited by Brand, 03 December 2012 - 10:05 PM.

[KrayZ33]

Quote

Ahahaha, no. It's a 1200 heal at base, it's a 1400 heal with Sonic Boon (Which is 260 HP currently). A build like Sithicus' does not have 1200-1400 Heals, it has 1200-1400 Healing Power. At 1400 Healing Power your shouts heal for (1400*.8)+1192 = 2312 which is very close to my approximation of 2400.

"Ahahahha" 1200 healing power, you might as well use precision for a hammer build and condition dmg for GS


so what if this is a "support thread" ?
its stil a build, you might as well go for condition damage on your GS and crit on your Hammer - stats are wasted the same way

Quote

In regards to your last statement, any good build does have stable utilities, just as it has stable traits. An important part about a successful, optimal build, is that it does something unique and it has synergy. A hodgepodge of random skills and traits and you end up with a build like Red_Falcons... Simply not effective.

funny, the fact aside that I'm not talking about 5 minute pauses to adjust your traits and skills for a boss, you are telling me an allround build is more "effective"? really?

so if I'm going to face an encounter where its vital to down large groups of mobs I'm better off using an allround build that is somewhat able to do decent dmg on single target and decent dmg on multiple targets instead of having a build that is able to do enormous damage to 5 or more targets?

Quote

Okay, you do realize that being out of range of a target and overhealing a target are exactly the same thing? In both instances you do no healing. You were commenting about shouts being out of range and the heals then being ineffective. Therefore, you are saying that you care about the heals not working, and therefore overhealing is encompassed by your point and very much matters.

the thing is, regeneration is always there, shouts have a CD
considering how most fights are down and what happens during those its also less likely for regeneration to overheal than it is for shouts, but what does it matter to you

Edited by KrayZ33, 04 December 2012 - 05:18 AM.

[Brand]

KrayZ33, on 04 December 2012 - 05:07 AM, said:

"Ahahahha" 1200 healing power, you might as well use precision for a hammer build and condition dmg for GS

so what if this is a "support thread" ?
its stil a build, you might as well go for condition damage on your GS and crit on your Hammer - stats are wasted the same way

funny, the fact aside that I'm not talking about 5 minute pauses to adjust your traits and skills for a boss, you are telling me an allround build is more "effective"? really?

so if I'm going to face an encounter where its vital to down large groups of mobs I'm better off using an allround build that is somewhat able to do decent dmg on single target and decent dmg on multiple targets instead of having a build that is able to do enormous damage to 5 or more targets?

the thing is, regeneration is always there, shouts have a CD
considering how most fights are down and what happens during those its also less likely for regeneration to overheal than it is for shouts, but what does it matter to you

No because you see, Healing Power is the Main Stat here, in a crit build the main stat is precision, in a condition build it's condition damage.
Supporters want Healing Power, and it ISN'T a waste on them, they can use it effectively due to their build. Sithicus runs about 1400 Healing Power in his build.

And... No? Did you read my post at all? I said switching between utilities was bad! If you need a specific one for a specific encounter that's fine, but you should never switch more than once a dungeon. My exact words are "NOT EFFECTIVE".

Why would shout CD's hurt anything? I'd much rather be healed for 7200 every ~22 seconds, have 4 conditions removed, and gain nearly equal buffs to a banner than run a banner for weak regen. Not to mention many classes can bring regen, and doubling it up is a waste. No one can ever double up or outclass shout heals. The fact that you say "what does it matter to you" in that last sentence tells me that you've based all of your arguments on op, and since I proved you wrong you are dismissing the argument. That's not really how discussion works though. Also, are you freaking kidding me? It's MORE LIKELY for a healing skill that you CHOOSE when to use to overheal, than a boon you cannot control at all? I've not seen a whol lot of fights where allies take tiny hits that can be regenerated, they need burst heals. When an ally takes a hit, you heal them. With a banner they have no choice, don't get health back fast enough, and the ones that don't need healing get it wasted on them.

[Sithicus Dias]

Mr_Finesse, on 03 December 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

I'll definitely give this a shot in the coming weeks because I tend to favor precision in my build.  I'm really attached to the rifle and the precision line in general which is another reason I wanted to potentially go this way.  The cheapness of Magi armor just helps that fact.

The Vitality vs. Toughness part is my main concern as well.  I'm thinking to offset this wil Cleric and/or Shaman accessories.  I want a good balance between vitality and toughness, so we'll see what happens.

The sigil idea is also a good call.  From what i've seen, most of the worthwhile sigils for this build are non "critical chance" dependent.  I.E. Superior Life.



(http://gw2skills.net...ssZ5ySm1qhRD7EA)
^------- with Magi armor...potentially

Ah yes, off-setting your Magi Armour with Sapphire (Cleric's) Accessories could work really nicely. I worked out that your accessories (not including your backpiece) make up over 42% of your overall attributes from gear, so you'd be able to stack a nice amount of Toughness through doing that. I guess as long as your Healing remains consistent, a mixture of Vit/Toughness and then Power/Prec could be really interesting...

As for Sigils, I really like Sigil of Life, since this build is so defensive, it's pretty common for you to have the 25 stacks. At the moment i've been running at ~1000 Healing Power, and then the Sigil adds another 250 onto it.

As per your build, I like the idea. Specing part way into Arms to augment the Rifle is something I had been thinking of, but had not really tried. I like to be up close CC'ing enemies, that's why I'm really enjoying Mace/Shield and Hammer as my weapon sets right now. Although you might possibly consider choosing a Shield instead of an OH Mace, and switching Sundering Mace for Shield Master, that adds a lot of Defense for you. Plus Shield Stance is fantastic for soaking large enemy barrages.

KrayZ33, on 04 December 2012 - 05:07 AM, said:

"Ahahahha" 1200 healing power, you might as well use precision for a hammer build and condition dmg for GS

so if I'm going to face an encounter where its vital to down large groups of mobs I'm better off using an allround build that is somewhat able to do decent dmg on single target and decent dmg on multiple targets instead of having a build that is able to do enormous damage to 5 or more targets?

the thing is, regeneration is always there, shouts have a CD
considering how most fights are down and what happens during those its also less likely for regeneration to overheal than it is for shouts, but what does it matter to you

Healing Power would only be wasted if I wasn't actually Healing, but since I am, they aren't wasted. Your point is out of context, since Healing Power is a key contingent to this build, and you still don't explain why they are "wasted" stats.

Firstly, name that encounter. Secondly, how exactly do you hit 5 targets at a time, with enormous damage? Next time you're attacking a big group of mobs clustered together, have a look at just how many you are actually hitting. Also, nowhere am I claiming this build can do significant damage to either single or multiple mobs, the idea is to Defend. You can take so much pressure under this build, you can weather massive enemy assaults, and disable them at the same time.

Shouts do have a cooldown, but one of the reasons behind my Numerical Thread was to see if (despite the cooldown) Shouts heal proportionately more, as it turns out they do. Most encounters do see allies at less than 100% health, but it doesn't mean everyone sits at 95%, thus making a Shout heal an overheal. Also, one of the biggest benefits to Shout healing is that you can heal 2k just instantly. for 1000 HP Banner regeneration would take almost 8 seconds to heal the same amount. In those 8 seconds, a Shout is almost halfway through coolding down, but also in 8 seconds, you (or your ally) could very well be downed. But you see this is an opportunity to drive home one of the greatest points behind this build, just think about how powerful a VS warrior run in tandem with a Banner warrior would be? The combined healing from both sources could mean you could run VS with just two shouts, because you'd be able to better identify if an ally is really in trouble, and your overall healing requirement would be less.

EDIT: Was interrupted while writing this post, so to add response to Brand's latest post:

I did use to run about 1400 HP, but after talking with you about the need to optimize between damage and healing, I dropped it to around 1000, and my power is something like 1900 now, so I at least hit pretty hard

You sum it up nicely here, the Healing, and the Cleansing from Shouts every ~22 seconds (less than the average Healing Skill cooldown) is ideal, and it really does help. Unfortunately, I think KrayZ really needs to experience having a VS Warrior in the team. In his defense it is difficult to appreciate this build unless you've tried/seen someone play it really well.

Edited by Sithicus Dias, 04 December 2012 - 09:38 AM.

[Mr_Finesse]

Sithicus Dias, on 04 December 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

Ah yes, off-setting your Magi Armour with Sapphire (Cleric's) Accessories could work really nicely. I worked out that your accessories (not including your backpiece) make up over 42% of your overall attributes from gear, so you'd be able to stack a nice amount of Toughness through doing that. I guess as long as your Healing remains consistent, a mixture of Vit/Toughness and then Power/Prec could be really interesting...

As for Sigils, I really like Sigil of Life, since this build is so defensive, it's pretty common for you to have the 25 stacks. At the moment i've been running at ~1000 Healing Power, and then the Sigil adds another 250 onto it.

As per your build, I like the idea. Specing part way into Arms to augment the Rifle is something I had been thinking of, but had not really tried. I like to be up close CC'ing enemies, that's why I'm really enjoying Mace/Shield and Hammer as my weapon sets right now. Although you might possibly consider choosing a Shield instead of an OH Mace, and switching Sundering Mace for Shield Master, that adds a lot of Defense for you. Plus Shield Stance is fantastic for soaking large enemy barrages.

Thanks for the info/advice/insight.  Highly appreciate it!

I'll give the Shield a shot for sure.  I've been considering it anyway since I really have to get in this support mindset with the shouts.  I've been running with dual maces since I started my warrior, but i'm still running signets so it works.  Once I switch to shouts in the next week or so i'll pick up a Shield and try this out.  Thanks again for the advice and i'll let you know my findings with the equipment and such.

[Sithicus Dias]

Mr_Finesse, on 04 December 2012 - 03:05 PM, said:

Thanks for the info/advice/insight.  Highly appreciate it!

I'll give the Shield a shot for sure.  I've been considering it anyway since I really have to get in this support mindset with the shouts.  I've been running with dual maces since I started my warrior, but i'm still running signets so it works.  Once I switch to shouts in the next week or so i'll pick up a Shield and try this out.  Thanks again for the advice and i'll let you know my findings with the equipment and such.

Happy to do it, I look forward to hearing how this works

[dawdler]

If you want to get the most out of the sheild, keep in mind to pick the reflect trait as it really up the usefullness of it (and the main hand mace). Offhand mace is nice in a damage build, but the sheild is much, much better for defense. If you use your skills correctly with mace/sheild combo, you can kill Orr/SS mobs without even getting hit once. Not that it'd hurt a supportive Warrior anyway, but you get the point, hehe. Its just so much fun to roflstomp those stupid Karkas. Great for farming.

[Sithicus Dias]

dawdler, on 04 December 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

If you want to get the most out of the sheild, keep in mind to pick the reflect trait as it really up the usefullness of it (and the main hand mace).

Spot on, Missile Deflection is awesome! There are so many projectiles you (sometimes without realizing) can throw right back at enemies (as dawdler says, Kharka's take a real beating from it). Missile Deflection also applies to your Mace Block too (#2), which is nice, since individual projectiles don't trigger the counterattack, it's like 1.5 seconds of extra deflection.

[Yeyeto]

sithicus is toughness THE tank stat or can i leave toughness and just stack vit ?

[Brand]

Yeyeto, on 05 December 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

sithicus is toughness THE tank stat or can i leave toughness and just stack vit ?

It's THE stat basically. Toughness>Vitality on a Warrior in PvE.

[Raybunny]

Ok, im still to read everything in this thread.

I'm a very "selfish" shout warrior traits 10/0/30/30/0 , I will tell you why.

Knight set (power though prec) damage runes and beserker acessories.

FGJ, Shake it off, or endure pain or OMM depending of the boss.

This is my second build and been working good in pair with our guardians but I feel that I should really change that selfish build since its focused more on damage than heal.

Weapons: Axe +Shield + Longbow.

I've been thinking on this build:

Power, thoughness and vit set
Runes of the warrior or power + crit runes
Healing Acess with dps orbs in it.

Traits would remain the same.

Opinions about it?

[Yeyeto]

Raybunny, on 05 December 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

Ok, im still to read everything in this thread.

I'm a very "selfish" shout warrior traits 10/0/30/30/0 , I will tell you why.

Knight set (power though prec) damage runes and beserker acessories.

FGJ, Shake it off, or endure pain or OMM depending of the boss.

This is my second build and been working good in pair with our guardians but I feel that I should really change that selfish build since its focused more on damage than heal.

Weapons: Axe +Shield + Longbow.

I've been thinking on this build:

Power, thoughness and vit set
Runes of the warrior or power + crit runes
Healing Acess with dps orbs in it.

Traits would remain the same.

Opinions about it?

i was running something similar
ac gear pow/vit/tou and full cleric gear with a cleric weapon
you will be healing almost 2k  with no healing power buffs (really, like 1997) per shout
was playing them as a 6k heal for my self (and the lucky one that was in range) and i must said you  get tired of it really fast if you pug alot because there is always that person that cant dodge....

[Brand]

Raybunny, on 05 December 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

Ok, im still to read everything in this thread.

I'm a very "selfish" shout warrior traits 10/0/30/30/0 , I will tell you why.

Knight set (power though prec) damage runes and beserker acessories.

FGJ, Shake it off, or endure pain or OMM depending of the boss.

This is my second build and been working good in pair with our guardians but I feel that I should really change that selfish build since its focused more on damage than heal.

Weapons: Axe +Shield + Longbow.

I've been thinking on this build:

Power, thoughness and vit set
Runes of the warrior or power + crit runes
Healing Acess with dps orbs in it.

Traits would remain the same.

Opinions about it?

Basically, if you want to be a dps, run Sonic Boon.
If you want to be a full out supportive healer, run Sithicus' Build.

Power/Tough/Vit gear will be significantly worse than Power/Tough/Healing for you and your team. Using a Shout build without Soldier's runes is basically a bad idea (Except for Sonic Boon). If you have two Guardians in your group, I would recommend Sonic Boon.

If you want to use Axe/Shield I wouldn't use this build if I were you. Axe/Shield doesn't synergize super great with VS. At this point in your build you're sacrificing A LOT to do some pretty weird things. Look over Sonic Boon and Strife's Axe/Mace build (No VS).

You want to be Support or DPS, this "middle man" thing you are trying to accomplish just isn't going to be effective. However, Sonic Boon does give a lot of support for the damage it pumps out.

[Sithicus Dias]

Yeyeto, on 05 December 2012 - 09:20 AM, said:

sithicus is toughness THE tank stat or can i leave toughness and just stack vit ?

Toughness is quite build-centric here, but a poster is going to let us know how Magi armour works out, just to see if Vitality is really terrible or not.

Raybunny, on 05 December 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

Ok, im still to read everything in this thread.

I'm a very "selfish" shout warrior traits 10/0/30/30/0 , I will tell you why.

Knight set (power though prec) damage runes and beserker acessories.

FGJ, Shake it off, or endure pain or OMM depending of the boss.

This is my second build and been working good in pair with our guardians but I feel that I should really change that selfish build since its focused more on damage than heal.

Weapons: Axe +Shield + Longbow.

I've been thinking on this build:

Power, thoughness and vit set
Runes of the warrior or power + crit runes
Healing Acess with dps orbs in it.

Traits would remain the same.

Opinions about it?

Well I guess I don't really understand how 30 in Tactics is selfish, what traits are you using if not for Vigorous Shouts/ Inspiring Battle Standard?

Gear sounds good, Sapphire accessories will give you a whole load of Healing, and plenty more power and toughness too. It would bring some much needed viability to Vigorous Shouts as well. You'd certainly be a lot more defensive with your suggested setup.

Brand, on 05 December 2012 - 10:29 AM, said:

Basically, if you want to be a dps, run Sonic Boon.
If you want to be a full out supportive healer, run Sithicus' Build.

Power/Tough/Vit gear will be significantly worse than Power/Tough/Healing for you and your team. Using a Shout build without Soldier's runes is basically a bad idea (Except for Sonic Boon). If you have two Guardians in your group, I would recommend Sonic Boon.

If you want to use Axe/Shield I wouldn't use this build if I were you. Axe/Shield doesn't synergize super great with VS. At this point in your build you're sacrificing A LOT to do some pretty weird things. Look over Sonic Boon and Strife's Axe/Mace build (No VS).

You want to be Support or DPS, this "middle man" thing you are trying to accomplish just isn't going to be effective. However, Sonic Boon does give a lot of support for the damage it pumps out.

Your first statement is a bit misleading, since my build isn't "full out supportive", I have far from maximum Healing/Toughness. It's not a "middle man" thing he's trying to accomplish. I realised I needed to be able to push damage as well, which is why I have Clerics Armour, Knights Weapons, Sapphire Accessories with Rubies in them. So it's a little middle man-ish, but I don't sacrifice the core tenets of support behind the build. Yet I still have ~1900 Power.

That first statement needs to read "If you want to run a more DPS oriented build, run Sonic Boon. If you want to run a more Support oriented build, run VS". Also, without bashing Sonic Boon for it's support, out of the 4 methods of support, it does not cover Condition Removal and Control, which are two areas I DO cover, so to say it's "a lot of support" is again, a little misleading (given also where Healing ranks on the Hierarchy of Survivability).

You can't really reject Soldier Gear, since it raises an interesting point about whether you can have enough Health to not have to worry about conditions as much as someone who does not stack Vit (like me). I'm keen to learn peoples experiences with Vitality, there could be some game-changing stuff in there...

Shouting without Soldier Runes isn't necessarily a bad idea, it just means you have less Condition Removal, and CR is something that you CAN use to really help out your team in the right situations. However, if he has a whole lot more Vitality, he can weather conditions a lot better than I could for example.

Axe/Shield is fine, I use it plenty when I don't need the Mace. Axe is a much higher damage weapon than the mace, so when the encounters are a little softer, go ahead and use it. My primary reason for using Mace is the Block every 8 seconds (traited), and the weakness is really nice. Axe is there if i need to just focus a bit more damage. It's all very well questioning the synergy of Axe/Shield for VS, but considering that the Mace Trait isn't really of equal magnitude to something like Forceful Greatsword, it's an acceptable switch.

[Brand]

Sithicus Dias, on 05 December 2012 - 10:51 AM, said:

Toughness is quite build-centric here, but a poster is going to let us know how Magi armour works out, just to see if Vitality is really terrible or not.




Well I guess I don't really understand how 30 in Tactics is selfish, what traits are you using if not for Vigorous Shouts/ Inspiring Battle Standard?

Gear sounds good, Sapphire accessories will give you a whole load of Healing, and plenty more power and toughness too. It would bring some much needed viability to Vigorous Shouts as well. You'd certainly be a lot more defensive with your suggested setup.




Your first statement is a bit misleading, since my build isn't "full out supportive", I have far from maximum Healing/Toughness. It's not a "middle man" thing he's trying to accomplish. I realised I needed to be able to push damage as well, which is why I have Clerics Armour, Knights Weapons, Sapphire Accessories with Rubies in them. So it's a little middle man-ish, but I don't sacrifice the core tenets of support behind the build. Yet I still have ~1900 Power.

That first statement needs to read "If you want to run a more DPS oriented build, run Sonic Boon. If you want to run a more Support oriented build, run VS". Also, without bashing Sonic Boon for it's support, out of the 4 methods of support, it does not cover Condition Removal and Control, which are two areas I DO cover, so to say it's "a lot of support" is again, a little misleading (given also where Healing ranks on the Hierarchy of Survivability).

You can't really reject Soldier Gear, since it raises an interesting point about whether you can have enough Health to not have to worry about conditions as much as someone who does not stack Vit (like me). I'm keen to learn peoples experiences with Vitality, there could be some game-changing stuff in there...

Shouting without Soldier Runes isn't necessarily a bad idea, it just means you have less Condition Removal, and CR is something that you CAN use to really help out your team in the right situations. However, if he has a whole lot more Vitality, he can weather conditions a lot better than I could for example.

Axe/Shield is fine, I use it plenty when I don't need the Mace. Axe is a much higher damage weapon than the mace, so when the encounters are a little softer, go ahead and use it. My primary reason for using Mace is the Block every 8 seconds (traited), and the weakness is really nice. Axe is there if i need to just focus a bit more damage. It's all very well questioning the synergy of Axe/Shield for VS, but considering that the Mace Trait isn't really of equal magnitude to something like Forceful Greatsword, it's an acceptable switch.

Well, I mean obviously Sonic Boon is less support than a VS build. By "A lot of support" I meant it in comparison to other dps oriented builds. I'm unsure about your backing up of Vitality. Lilitu, and several other mathy people find it to be worse than toughness, and that's just in a normal build. When you add in heals toughness gets much much better. I firmly believe we have enough vitality at base/with tactics and that toughness is leagues better in any healing build. Until I see math or tests showing otherwise, I'm going to stick to the radical side of things. My argument about Soldier's runes stems directly from taking toughness over Vitality, so yeah. I'd still think the blocking and etc would make the mace better, but you're the master of this build.

Also, wouldn't you know that I just typed up a whole response to the new poster on my thread, and then it got erased? I have to go to school very shortly, could you do me a favor and post something to subdue him until I get back? xD

[Raybunny]

Regarding the above quotes and replies. I dont want to be dps at all since its was disaster experience, nor full support.

Started to be full dps and ajusted everything acording my experience in dungeons so went toward VS traits. I say selfish cause im a middle dps support. But its getting not enough.

After reading a little more and since I got also that many ac tokens Ill aquire the Power, though vit set with runes of the soldier and craft myself a full set of sapphire acess surely there will be an improvement.

[Sithicus Dias]

Raybunny, on 05 December 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

Regarding the above quotes and replies. I dont want to be dps at all since its was disaster experience, nor full support.

Started to be full dps and ajusted everything acording my experience in dungeons so went toward VS traits. I say selfish cause im a middle dps support. But its getting not enough.

After reading a little more and since I got also that many ac tokens Ill aquire the Power, though vit set with runes of the soldier and craft myself a full set of sapphire acess surely there will be an improvement.

Yeah that will allow you to have a nicely defensive, but also supportive setup as well, let me know exactly how much Healing Power you have when you get that setup, I'm running at ~1000 now (and an extra 250 from Sigil of Life).

Brand, on 05 December 2012 - 11:36 AM, said:

I'm unsure about your backing up of Vitality. Lilitu, and several other mathy people find it to be worse than toughness, and that's just in a normal build. When you add in heals toughness gets much much better. I firmly believe we have enough vitality at base/with tactics and that toughness is leagues better in any healing build. Until I see math or tests showing otherwise, I'm going to stick to the radical side of things. My argument about Soldier's runes stems directly from taking toughness over Vitality, so yeah. I'd still think the blocking and etc would make the mace better, but you're the master of this build.

Also, wouldn't you know that I just typed up a whole response to the new poster on my thread, and then it got erased? I have to go to school very shortly, could you do me a favor and post something to subdue him until I get back? xD

Never said I backed it up, but as a man of science I learned to question everything. Mathematical models only go so far, there's a point where you need someone to just TELL you how they found it was going. Trust me i spent ages thinking of the Hierarchy of Survivability, so I know that Toughness is more valuable, but it can't hurt to find out

Yeah well the them of Weapons falls into the theme of both yours and my builds, in that they fit for basically every situation, gear wise. However switching weapons is an ideal way to work some flexibility in. Mace blocking is fantastic, and most of the time I use it, however sometimes I know that it's going to be a silly encounter with lots of weak mobs, so I swap to Axe for a bit of extra bite. In a similar way to when I ran Sonic Boon, I had Mace and Shield as my second set, for when the poop hit the fan.