170 replies to this topic

[Mr_Finesse]

Just a note here, i'm not planning on ditching toughness altogether.  I'm just trying Magi armor instead of Cleric.  The rest of the items and such will be Cleric.

I did a preliminary calculation of what i'm aiming for in toughness and vitality and with my traits, armor, and trinkets it comes out to about:

+ ~560 in Toughness
+ ~690 in Vitality

Again, this trial is moreso based around the ease of which to acquire Magi armor over Cleric armor...

[Sithicus Dias]

Mr_Finesse, on 05 December 2012 - 08:31 PM, said:

Just a note here, i'm not planning on ditching toughness altogether.  I'm just trying Magi armor instead of Cleric.  The rest of the items and such will be Cleric.

I did a preliminary calculation of what i'm aiming for in toughness and vitality and with my traits, armor, and trinkets it comes out to about:

+ ~560 in Toughness
+ ~690 in Vitality

Again, this trial is moreso based around the ease of which to acquire Magi armor over Cleric armor...

Yeah exactly, your Toughness is still relatively good. Will be interesting to see if by stacking some Vit, you avoid the diminishing return on Toughness (I still need to figure more about that).

[Brand]

Just popping in for a second, bout to head to bed.

Sithicus, I wanted to say that you should really put that Hammer/LB build in here, if you want me to I can detail the whole build for you. I just think it would be a great addition considering it gives burst heal, regen, heavy boon support, good control and high survivability.

[Sithicus Dias]

Brand, on 06 December 2012 - 04:19 AM, said:

Just popping in for a second, bout to head to bed.

Sithicus, I wanted to say that you should really put that Hammer/LB build in here, if you want me to I can detail the whole build for you. I just think it would be a great addition considering it gives burst heal, regen, heavy boon support, good control and high survivability.

But what aspects does it add that are unique from some of the base concepts I outlined? The reason I trimmed a lot of fat from the original post was to prioritize the theory behind support as a Mindset, a player attitude if you will. I already use a Hammer with my base Vigorous Shouts build for the control. Just give me a little justification as to why it's unique, then I can see about putting it in the OP.

[Brand]

Sure thing, just gotta go to school (Half day) and when I get back I'll show you! Tbh it's really neat!

[Nonlinear]

I've been using a hammer/lb + banner support build and am very satisfied with it.  I don't plan on using anything else for dungeons atm.  

I use 100% uptime on banner regen instead of shout heals but you could probably chage up the grandmaster trait and use either (this would require you to shuffle gear to add in healing, would probably change runes too).  

25 stacks of might, 18 stacks of AOE might, weakness, CC, snare, blind, immobolize, banner + regen and enough toughness to face tank a lot of stuff when the toughness is coupled with weakness and all the regen.  

I never need to pop either signet, if need be I'll swap to bow and if possible blind/immobolize then kite inside my fire field with 3 bars of adrenaline, you regen 15k hp every 20 seconds that way (7.8k without the adrenaline) without any +healing gear.  On a lot of bosses (like Kholer) when you apply weakness with the hammer your regen will heal you for more than the boss will damage you for (except for dagger storm), only need to dodge his pull otherwise can spam the rotation.  Without the weakness you usually don't mitigate enough for the regen to give you more than you take.

Guru thread

Video

Gw2Codex writeup

I posted in your analysis thread why I went with Dolyak runes (it's basically +190 healing for the rune with this specific build)

Edited by Nonlinear, 12 December 2012 - 08:00 PM.

[Xentus]

Just curious, how would Giver's armor work with this concept? It grants toughness, healing, and boon duration. On the surface it seems like it might work out, but I'm wondering if that gimps the offensive ability of the warrior even in this supportive setting.

[Sithicus Dias]

It would gimp Power quite a bit, plus the bonus boon duration is quite small. Given that you don't supply an awful lot of boons to allies, it might not be worth it... Perhaps a couple of pieces though.

[Itgotbinned]

Sithicus Dias, on 06 December 2012 - 02:30 AM, said:

Yeah exactly, your Toughness is still relatively good. Will be interesting to see if by stacking some Vit, you avoid the diminishing return on Toughness (I still need to figure more about that).

I know this may not be totally related to your question Sithicus but thought posting this thread here might be useful to you just in case you have not seen it yet.

http://www.guildwars...s-and-vitality/

I know I've referred to this a couple of times in the past for my warrior.

Also just because I've not chimed in previously on this post, Great post, glad to see some thought go towards supportive builds

/Binit

[Brand]

To be honest, I think Sithicus knows that Vitality isn't all that great in PvE; he is a theory crafter himself after all.

As far as I know, he was just not shooting down the idea of further testing on the subject. He wanted to see the math and who knows, maybe vitality turns out better. I think he was just trying to NOT stifle build ideas ^^

Could be wrong though.

Edited by Brand, 24 December 2012 - 07:59 AM.

[Itgotbinned]

Its wholly dependant on the fight, for example if a player would be taking 75% condition damage and the rest as direct damage then vitality would be the better idea. The big issue with PVE is the lack of consistent condition damage to contend with.

The balance between toughness and vitality also changes heavily based on boons and conditions applied by the player, protection and weakness (applied to the mob ) would greatly change the weighting between the two stats.

I have a spreadsheet with all these variables taken into account around somewhere which basically addresses the issue of which stat would provide more survivability in a specific situation, ill try and dig it out as it may prove
useful

Note: You will have to excuse typos! Im still asleep!

/Binit

Edited by Itgotbinned, 24 December 2012 - 08:32 AM.

[Sithicus Dias]

Added more discussion to the nourishment sections of each build, as well as more clarity.

[Neo_Freudian]

Greetings! I've just come across this thread and it looks like a wealth of information.  I'd like to spend some time reading over it and absorbing everyone's ideas.  I also wanted to add some of my own questions as well as share my build for some constructive feedback. Also, I haven't had time to read over the whole thread so I apologize if I bring up something that's already been covered.  Currently, I spend most of my time in Fractals because my wife wants Bolt and I find it to be the most lucrative use of my time in game.

Long story short, I've been playing a warrior since day 1, built him as DPS, ended up grinding out The Juggernaut and realized that I'm going to have to get creative with my build if I want to enjoy the fruits of my labor.  I've played around trying to find a control spec that is both fun and viable...which has been easier said than done.  I'm curious if it's possible to find a control build that doesn't run with banner or shout healing (mainly because I don't want to have to grind out money for cleric's gear...I'm flexible though).

Ideally, I'd like to be able to seriously control and disrupt the battlefield.  Using "Fear Me" and "Stomp" are are great, but I often find them being too situational to give up passive or shout utilities such as FGJ or Dolyak Signet (If you're running a tanky build).  Currently, this is what I'm running/trying out:  http://www.guildhead...z7kNc70V7owY70m

Basically, I've built a full PTV set because I'd like to be as tanky as possible.  I'm less concerned with damage and more concerned with being able to move around the battlefield.  I have, however, been coming across threads discussing the concept of DR on Vitality and Toughness, but I have no clue what that threshold is (if it exists).  I find that I'm mobile, good with removing conditions for myself and my allies, and keeping weakness up on enemies.  This build also excels at removing defiance stacks from bosses.

A few concerns/ideas I'm thinking about and would love feedback on:

- If I have hit DR on Vit/Tough, then I'm thinking of dropping dolyak signet/Def Banner for "Fear Me" and "Stomp".
- I have the 20 points in Discipline for "Fast Hands" but wondering it those points might be better spent elsewhere?
- Is going 30 points into tactics for Inspiring Banners/Vigorous Shouts worth it if I don't have any cleric's gear equipped?
- I've considered going 10/0/30/30/0 for Great Fortitude or Restorative Strength.
- If I do go 30 into Tactics and forego Healing Banners/Tactics, I was thinking of either Shrug it Off or Leg Specialist (Hammer Shock works great with this).

I'm very open to suggestions as I'd like to make the most out of my class.  Again, I'd like to be able to take as much punishment as possible while being able to keep myself/allies mobile and weakness on enemies while being able to disrupt/control the battlefield as much as possible.  Thanks for reading and any additional ideas!

[Sithicus Dias]

Neo_Freudian, on 28 January 2013 - 03:43 PM, said:

1/ - If I have hit DR on Vit/Tough, then I'm thinking of dropping dolyak signet/Def Banner for "Fear Me" and "Stomp".
2/ - I have the 20 points in Discipline for "Fast Hands" but wondering it those points might be better spent elsewhere?
3/ - Is going 30 points into tactics for Inspiring Banners/Vigorous Shouts worth it if I don't have any cleric's gear equipped?
4/ - I've considered going 10/0/30/30/0 for Great Fortitude or Restorative Strength.
5/ - If I do go 30 into Tactics and forego Healing Banners/Tactics, I was thinking of either Shrug it Off or Leg Specialist (Hammer Shock works great with this).

Hey, I'll try and answer your points systematically:

Firstly it sounds like you've got the idea, Hammer + Mace/X is great, although you might consider Shield instead of Warhorn for the extra stun, and Shield Stance is great. Generally you can maintain the Weakness just from your Mace, and if you can't then it is because whatever you are fighting has some kind of resistance (i.e. a Champion, with half weakness duration).

1/ Those skill switches would be good, with full "Soldier" Armour, I think you're tough enough

2/ Actually I think you're right with Fast Hands, think about how with a Hammer you can smash your whole rotation of skills, then Weapon Swap to Mace/Shield, use those CC skills, then weapon swap on the 5 second timer, and some of your Hammer skills might be back again. You might consider Sundering Mace and Shield Master instead of Cull the Weak and Last Stand. Cull won't do you much good, since with Soldier gear your damage is very low anyway, in addition to this, Last Stand is one of those traits that appears to be good, but the truth is it activates AFTER you get CC'd, so unless you are about to get CC'd again straight after it's not really much good. Sundering Mace/SHield Master give you reduced cooldowns to get you weapon swapping efficiently. Also remember your "on weapon swap" sigils (i.e. Battle and Energy).

3/ No it isn't worth it. You know what you want to do with your build, and Healing isn't it, so you don't need to go for 30. It's better you focus on ways to enhance what your build is doing, which in this case means swapping utilities for CC skills and not needing to bother with healing. As i'm sure you're aware with your build paradigm is that realistically you probably prevent a serious chunk of damage to your allies anyway.

4/ I think you shouldn't worry about the Tactics line. It's geared around support (i.e. heals from shouts/banners) since you don't do this, and don't necessarily need to use a banner, this line isn't doing you many favours. Defense is a line you do want 30 in for sure. I could be wrong about the weapon swap trait, you might not need it really. 10 in Strength for the vit trait could be good.

5/ It's difficult to know, Tactics really doesn't do much for you. You have to do what you're doing at maximum effectiveness, or else that means there is some other build you could be running "Better" for the same opportunity cost. That's why I tend to think you either go Full Clerics and heal with VS, or you don't use VS.

What I do now is this though, it's pretty reasonable to say that Warriors are the most powerful class in the game, couple this with incredible damage resilience and you have two big advantages. Here's the thing though, I found while running Support that my team as a whole didn't feel like we had enough DPS, and I realised in part this was because I was so defensive. Killing enemies quickly is just as effective as weathering a longer fight. So you have to consider the two sides. I tend to avoid Vitality on a Warrior because I don't think you need it. Vitality is variable for each class, for the lowest health pools Vitality is effectively worth more than Toughness, since 25% Damage Reduction is less effective for someone on 13k health, than it is for osmeone with 20k health. If however you switched from Pow/Vit/Toughness to Knights armour, you could start putting all of those spare points (in addition to 30 Defense) into Str/Arms, and try and do some more damage, since you'd have a viable crit chance and lots of power. You'd still be able to CC, but then you could consider Deep Discipline, and use Quick Bursts, among other things to ramp up Adrenaline gain and spam your Earth Shaker.

[Vigdis Geirdottir]

Great guide, Sithicus! I'm playing and loving the VS build, mostly because I'm a fan of it's defensive playstyle, while offering great support. However, I'm concerned about the transition to ascended accessories, since there's no possibility of combining cleric's main stats with berserker's "jewel" stats (prefix and suffix, I believe), as how you suggest doing with the exotic accessories. Should I sacrifice the offensive stats (I deem it a bit too punishing) or should I mix accessories, i.e. one Cleric's and one Berserker's ascended ring? Should I avoid ascended accessories fo now? Currently, I'm not focused on Fractals beyond lvl. 7, so I'm not worrying about AR yet; I'm more into open world/casual dungeon runs (approximately 1 or 2 explorables per day).

[TastySlop]

There's a reason there hasn't been much activity in this thread for a while:

Sithicus Dias, on 23 February 2013 - 01:44 AM, said:

... I theorycrafted Vigorous Shouts a while back, but I quickly let it die when I learned how to play the Warrior as it was meant to be played.

http://www.guildwars...80#entry2168991

Edited by TastySlop, 11 March 2013 - 06:21 PM.

[Sithicus Dias]

I'm not sure if your post is attempting to deface me or what. Perhaps i'm just interpreting it wrong. But yeah, I just stopped updating this because I felt I had found out all I wanted to. So is the nature of any kind of research, if you find it doesn't work then you move on to something else. I don't regret doing it, it's fun to delve into the mechanics of the game and at the time there wasn't really any other thread I could see that went as far into it as I did.

[Lilitu]

I'm glad I clicked on that link. Matlab, Sithicus? Good game Did my degree using that!

[Sithicus Dias]

Lilitu, on 11 March 2013 - 10:31 PM, said:

I'm glad I clicked on that link. Matlab, Sithicus? Good game Did my degree using that!

Me too! Finally someone I can identify with xD

[seppl]

Sithicus Dias, on 11 March 2013 - 07:20 PM, said:

But yeah, I just stopped updating this because I felt I had found out all I wanted to.

I would be nice if you leave a message in this post, that you stopped updating this topic.
Don´t missunderstand me, but not everyone is reading the whole board and make cross checkes between topics.

I like your posts and my build is inspired from your VS build.

Everyone should play a build which one is good for him. A copied build is maybe good, but an own creation is even better.

But back to my concerns:
A short message for ending this topic would be realy nice.

[Sithicus Dias]

I've stopped updating this thread, mainly because I don't feel there's anything important to discover, I really just wanted to test the concept, I tried it extensively and decided I didn't want to carry on.

However, if you have queries do feel free to PM me, I'm always happy to discuss builds