170 replies to this topic

[Brand]

Bonja, on 03 November 2012 - 03:56 AM, said:

im a guardian player helping my warrior friend with his build and being a shout survivor build ur shout build caught my eye
im just worried about damage viability with crits being a major dps spec for me
i just dont see a nice dps option here uve stack alot into toughness and healing with a nice power aspect which most armours have
i just think a more spread look is needed but i have no clue and im running off my guard here just wondering how this system works and the available hybrid options you could have

VS isn't really for pumping out the sick deeps. You can do decent but not a whole lot, IBS allows you to grant support and without using any Cleric's gear or any other type of non-DPS related stat, and also frees up 2 utility slots. I think IBS is what you want.

Try something like http://www.guildhead...V7ofF70M7owX70z

[NachyoChez]

I run something VERY similar to this build (currently using knight's instead of cleric's armor, valk trinkets, and zerk weapons).  My healing is good, my damage is good, and my survivability is top-notch.

What most people overlook on the shouts build is, in fact, the shouts.  Against a single target, OMM is putting out 10% bonus damage party-wide for a few seconds (time it with an organized burst), and FGJ grants 20% crit and 3 stacks of might (which stacks with might from friends, like a guardian).  Typically, on non-boss mobs, I'm slapping them for 600+ damage on a normal axe swing, 1200+ on an eviscerate (before crits trigger).  I mow through trash just fine, heal the party, and bring MASSIVE DPS to a group.  Just not all on my own screen.

[Sithicus Dias]

Well, the Greatsword build that uses Knights Gear (Knights is just common sense for places like Arah, you would get mercilessly destroyed without it), and it provides banner regen by speccing into 30 tactics. However beyond that you spec into a typical offensive GS build. A friend of mine who runs it regularly hits Hundred Blades for 20k. The only difference between Knights and Berserker's is Crit damage. However with runes and socketing Berserker Gems in your accessories, you can still make up a lot of crit damage.

The GS build allows you to deal very good damage, and provide regen, without really sacrificing too much damage. You say you don't see a nice DPS option, that's the typical opinion I get in response to these threads, but if you try the GS build you'll be surprised. Sure a fully Berserker geared warrior with a completely offensive DPS spec does more damage... but he is always dead on the floor 90% of the time.

The Vigorous Shouts build does require you to give up more damage, but in return you can survive overwhelming pressure, provide significant condition removal, and of course, heal your allies. If you go the way of Cleric's, it's hard to recover that damage back. I thought i'd make it fairly clear in the OP that if you want to deal damage, go IBS GS, but if you want to support more you go GS. Any interpretation within works too, it just depends what you want from it.

[Axton Bane]

Nevermind i did some math

Edited by Axton Bane, 03 November 2012 - 02:01 PM.

[Brand]

NachyoChez, on 03 November 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

I run something VERY similar to this build (currently using knight's instead of cleric's armor, valk trinkets, and zerk weapons).  My healing is good, my damage is good, and my survivability is top-notch.

What most people overlook on the shouts build is, in fact, the shouts.  Against a single target, OMM is putting out 10% bonus damage party-wide for a few seconds (time it with an organized burst), and FGJ grants 20% crit and 3 stacks of might (which stacks with might from friends, like a guardian).  Typically, on non-boss mobs, I'm slapping them for 600+ damage on a normal axe swing, 1200+ on an eviscerate (before crits trigger).  I mow through trash just fine, heal the party, and bring MASSIVE DPS to a group.  Just not all on my own screen.

I'm curious how much healing you're getting with your gear, compared to that of a full cleric's build -- Is it better than the Regen from banners? If it is, why would anyone use IBS? I understand they both provide different types of healing, but if the healing isn't as good even if you don't use cleric's with VS, and the DPS/survivability is better/the same, then why use it? Regen is something most guardians bring to the table, anyway.

Secondly I'd like to point out that I had a nice little comprehensive bit on OOM and the massive support it provides, which I will quote...

Brand, on 02 November 2012 - 09:43 PM, said:

In that same thread, people were talking down OOM as being the most useless of the four. FGJ and SIO are obviously the best, there is no disputing that, but I fail to see how it is worse than FM. FM provides three seconds (Best case) of CC every ~70 seconds (Traited) to enemies around you (Very short range). In WoW or D3 this would be nice, but in GW2 I rarely find myself surrounded by more than three enemies, and most often there is only one (Not to mention 100% of the time there is more than one enemy I do NOT want them running all over in fear, escaping AoE zones and pulling other mobs). Now OOM on the other hand, has a 24 second CD (Traited) and lasts for 11 seconds (10 points in Strength) that is nearly 50% up time (Used whenever possible, slightly unrealistic but not much since you activate it and it cannot really be wasted like SIO -looks at "Shrug it off"-). Ten stacks of Vulnerability = 10% damage from all incoming sources, 50% up time makes that a (Probably not entirely accurate but no doubt close estimate) 5% constant damage bonus from all sources. How many other utility skills on your bar can increase all allied teammates damage by 5% constantly? I'm very sure there is few if not none (Not counting elites or FGJ).

Lastly I'd like to ask how you think your build would fair with a GS/Rifle as the weapons in the set.

[JimmyDiddly]

So I've been running similar build to your shouts but there are a differences I want to ask you about.

http://www.guildhead...RnMa0xx0cMsqVRb

Why healing signet and rage signet?

Aren't mending and surge better?

And if you're going to go support, why would you ever go rage signet? Battle standard with IBS is an AOE battle res that also buffs everyone in a large radius.

[Brand]

Jimmy, first of all I'd like to tell you that I have not a clue why Heal Sig is in there. He spoke in an earlier post of loving Heal Sig until he tried out Surge, and now he is using Surge. Perhaps it is a placeholder, or perhaps he has not changed the build to fit his new ideals.

However, your argument about SoR has been brought up many times in the course of this thread, and it would behoove you greatly to read through the comments...

Long story short (Sort of): BS's CD is way too big to be useful as your go to elite, even if you are supporting. The rez is pretty insignificant due to you being able to rez a player in like 4 seconds, and if you can't rez them chances are they will die (if they died in an AoE) before you can lay down your banner (If a player is "Dead" not just downed, the banner WILL NOT rez them). If you want more regen USE ANOTHER BANNER not your Elite slot with a 240/192 second CD (Normal banner is 90 seconds long with a 96 sec CD, 6 seconds of downtime, and if you're really crazy about it, a few of the banners give buffs, such as Fury/Regen using the 2 skill)

Basically SoR is up more, and is often more useful, sometimes you will want BS though, but SoR is basically every warrior's "Go to" Elite in all situations.

And seriously, read through the comments, some great info in there.

[NachyoChez]

Brand, on 04 November 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

I'm curious how much healing you're getting with your gear, compared to that of a full cleric's build -- Is it better than the Regen from banners? If it is, why would anyone use IBS? I understand they both provide different types of healing, but if the healing isn't as good even if you don't use cleric's with VS, and the DPS/survivability is better/the same, then why use it? Regen is something most guardians bring to the table, anyway.

Properly running VS is a little expensive, with needing 7 Soldier's Runes (aquatic helm!), and the damage buffs on the banners are larger.  But, imho, running IBS robs a player of so much DPS because you're not hurting anything if you're dead.  My shout buffs are great, the heal is good (1,432 per shout due to 30 in tactics), and my DPS makes me very happy.  I'm not sure why anyone would run it :-p

Brand, on 04 November 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

Lastly I'd like to ask how you think your build would fair with a GS/Rifle as the weapons in the set.

I'm guessing this is at me; if so: I DESPISE the GS.  Hate it. Loathe it.  I ONLY use it to up my burst damage in a few fights.  Reason?  It feels lazy just spamming HB off cooldown, and I hate that HB misses every time a mob changes spots.  Sure, I could l2p it better, but I'm fine with dual axes.  Rifle, on the other hand, is an amazing weapon.  Good damage, good options, and plenty of nice styles.  My personal advice, though, is to become comfortable with all of the weapons.

Think of the weapons as tools, and the warrior as a carpenter.  He's not going to use a hammer to smooth the wood, or a screwdriver to set the pegs.  He brings the right tool, always changing; Maces and Hammers are AMAZING at control.  Shield can make you damage immune, and has control.  Axe and GS both do AMAZING burst damage (remember, HB is a multi-hit attack and the final number is the tally of all those hits, so don't stress not seeing one huge number on everything).  Warhorn can get a party through a tricky trapped area.  Sword...can be used as a torch?  (j/k...I use it for jumping puzzles too...)

Anyway, off my podium now.  The tl;dr is GS + Rifle are the default choices, but I'm more of an Axe/Axe kind of viking.

[Sithicus Dias]

Brand, on 04 November 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

I'm curious how much healing you're getting with your gear, compared to that of a full cleric's build -- Is it better than the Regen from banners? If it is, why would anyone use IBS? I understand they both provide different types of healing, but if the healing isn't as good even if you don't use cleric's with VS, and the DPS/survivability is better/the same, then why use it? Regen is something most guardians bring to the table, anyway.

This is one of those times where the original aim of the subject starts to become overwhelmed by numerical evidence. Vigorous Shouts do heal more at Base Healing Power (HP=0), quite a lot more in fact, go here: https://docs.google....a3c&pli=1#gid=0

Scroll to the bottom of Column D, and you'll see that VS heals around 54% more than IBS. However remember this model assumes you use all your shouts as soon as they are available, which is not necessarily true. The numerical evidence for VS is starting to become a lot clearer now. This is part of the fun, you find out the truth behind some things when you really model them properly!

Brand, on 04 November 2012 - 05:40 AM, said:

Jimmy, first of all I'd like to tell you that I have not a clue why Heal Sig is in there. He spoke in an earlier post of loving Heal Sig until he tried out Surge, and now he is using Surge. Perhaps it is a placeholder, or perhaps he has not changed the build to fit his new ideals.

Yes thank you for the reminder, my Heal of Choice is in fact Adrenaline Surge, will update the builds to reflect that. Again, my fellow commenters have swayed me around to Battle Standard as well, I merely forgot to edit those builds.

NachyoChez, on 04 November 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

My shout buffs are great, the heal is good (1,432 per shout due to 30 in tactics), and my DPS makes me very happy.  I'm not sure why anyone would run it :-p

This is very interesting, according to the numbers i've been crunching, AND several people running the build, it does seem we have a clear winner don't we I've had a look at how much the ratio of Healing (Shouts/Banners) varies as a fight progresses, you can see this in the "Convergence" data sheet in the google spreadsheet above, as a Jagged curve, showing the trend, you'll notice at roughly 50 seconds, a pattern begins to emerge, that a certain area of the curve will repeat itself. (Blue Line represents 3 shouts, and the Red line represents 2 shouts). I plotted this graph on a logarithmic scale and it shows that if you only used 2 shouts, it is roughly similar (but slightly better) than Banner Healing, which effectively frees a utility slot.

Of course, these are just ratios, this graph merely demonstrates how you can effectively match the healing from banners with 2 shouts, but using a third shout forces VS into a League of its own...

[Clipse]

I've been trying to work out a spec that focuses on control but also deals nice damage and I've also taken vigorous shouts to provide extra healing - I am running 0 healing power but they still feel like a nice cushion and the shouts also provide adrenaline so I can maintain my burst skills every CD.

Running it with knight's gear/weapons and then full berserker accessories.
Build: http://en.gw2skills....ArrUKsDu0DxQLNA

A few things to iron out, I know. But I need some advice on heal/sigils/runes.
Could it be worth running healing signet and rune of the water, as a 16second area heal. Would this then favor using shrug it off in place of LC to maintain a decent amount of condition removal?
Alternatively I was thinking of running surge with soldier runes to provide a better mix of self heal and condition removal.
I'm sure you have a much better understanding of what would work best.

Also need some help on sigils, I feel the +% on stun(etc) aren't going to make a huge difference and maybe the sigils proccing heals could work better

Any help would be appreciated, I'm a bit blagged right now and I don't have any real numbers on all of this kind of stuff.

[Sithicus Dias]

Hey Clipse, I like your build, nice idea using Leg Specialist with Hamstring, and of course the Flurry burst is an immobilize too, sounds pretty nice.

I agree with your gear choice, Knight's is great, and Berserker Accessories give you a sweet amount of crit damage too. As for Sigils, the Sigil of Water is a nice idea, but i think it only heals for about 300 per hit, however I can't remember for sure. I remember trying it and not feeling it completely viable (for the 10 second cooldown), so you might want to focus on something leaning towards DPS.

Runes though, again it is a nice idea, however Rune of Water would give you only a little bit of Healing Power, you might decide you want a more damaging one.You could even use Ruby Orbs in the slots as a cheap half-measure until you properly decide on a rune. Again the 18% crit damage you would get from 6 orbs would be great for you. I'm never too sure of what offensive rune suits people because there are so many to choose from.

Vigorous Shouts with a Control build is a great idea, I speculated on it in the OP, and i've been hoping somebody would try it out. The healing even at 0 HP is fairly good. Although of course you do have 200 Healing from the Defense Line, so I think you're on to something good. How do you like the damage? Does it feel too slow to kill things for example?

[Clipse]

Cheers for the feedback, the leg specialist also works on hammer shock for an aoe immobilize which is really nice.

If the sigil and runes of water only heal for small amounts I'll run orbs to see how the damage is (I've only tested with green weapons before I committed to exotics) and then choose a rune that suits what I feel it needs.

The damage, even though I had poor weapons and using a green full MF set, wasn't actually that bad, especially considering the amount of control. At least I didn't think 'okay, this is quite poor', I genuinely thought it would become quite powerful with proper gear and exotics.
I've got some buy orders waiting to be fulfilled so I'll let you know how it goes with proper equipment, hopefully later today!

[Leviathan_85]

Any update on how your friend runs it I pretty much got the gold together to buy everything so I need to start making a final decision?

[Leviathan_85]

BTW what are people talking about over here did he combine the banner with the shout giving him 1500 healing while having the 10% dps increase from the shout and still pulling the same dps numbers?

[Brand]

NachyoChez, on 04 November 2012 - 07:38 AM, said:

Properly running VS is a little expensive, with needing 7 Soldier's Runes (aquatic helm!), and the damage buffs on the banners are larger.  But, imho, running IBS robs a player of so much DPS because you're not hurting anything if you're dead.  My shout buffs are great, the heal is good (1,432 per shout due to 30 in tactics), and my DPS makes me very happy.  I'm not sure why anyone would run it :-p

I'm guessing this is at me; if so: I DESPISE the GS.  Hate it. Loathe it.  I ONLY use it to up my burst damage in a few fights.  Reason?  It feels lazy just spamming HB off cooldown, and I hate that HB misses every time a mob changes spots.  Sure, I could l2p it better, but I'm fine with dual axes.

Red reply: Could you then please link your build in it's entirety? Also, are you opposing Soldier's runes due to the cost, or saying they are worth it even with the cost? How much HP do you currently have, and how much does a 1400 shout heal with your damage compare to a proper 2200 heal full build (Is the damage gained worth the healing you lose?

Green reply: While I'm not trying to "convert" you, I do feel you were being a little harsh on GS. I'd like to support some of it's finer qualities. First off your auto attack provides vulnerability, up to 9-10 stacks, that's just as good as OOM in terms of team support (Obviously you have to stack it and keep auto attacking to get there, but it is possible). Secondly, WW Attack is a FREE Dodge roll, you are invulnerable while doing it and it has saved my life many a time when I had no endurance. You can throw Bladetrail at the enemy while running away, greatly helping with kiting, and you can rush to increase/close distance (A common thing for me to do is WW Attack through as boss, and then rush back to him instantly). Not to mention the huge offensive power of HB. HB is only the "Main skill" if you're playing a sig build, the other skills are super useful as well if you aren't just thinking of damage.

Little rushed sorry, I have to go to a movie ^^ Later guys. Look forward to replies.

[Clipse]

Sithicus, managed to get a full exotic set now.

Knight's gear - 6x ruby orbs
Knight's weapons (shield is shaman's - going for corrupted bulwark) - 0 sigils
Berserker's accessories - exquisite ruby jewels

Hp sits at roughly 21.5k with hammer out, and 22.4k with sword+shield.

The damage is really nice! Vague damage numbers on the practice dummy in LA:
Bear in mind none of these attacks can crit the dummy and are completely unbuffed.

Sword #1: 500~ 500~ 1100~ (Couldn't track bleeds as it was the dummy)
Leap: 600~
Hamstring: 600~
Shield Bash: 700~

Hammer #1: 850~ 850~ 1100~
Fierce Blow: 1300~
Hammer Shock: 630~
Staggering Blow: 1150~
Backbreaker: 1400~
Earthshaker: 1250~ (Stage 3)

Quite pleased with that, so I went to cursed shore to hit some mobs. The crits roll in (41% but can perma fury to 61%) and they hit really nice, don't have any numbers right now but was consistently hitting over 2k with most attacks and 3k on the heavy hitters.
On top of that I was able to take a beating and could put out a lot of control, especially the hammer wave with leg specialist.
I also did The Steel Tide personal story and put myself under a lot of pressure (6+ mobs) and found that I could last if i used all of the control, but they stacked a lot of conditions that I couldn't stay on top of.

I was thinking of going for runes that leaned towards defense but something that was well rounded, however, superior rune of divinity would cost nearly 25g for a full set, I don't really want to spend it...

I was thinking that the damage is in a nice place and if anything more defense would be nice.
What do you think of running soldier runes and dropping mending for surge?
I then have a bigger heal (it'd be easy to maintain stage 3 as it's running high adren) and then a lot more condition removal via shouts.
Coupled with this I'd look at running offensive sigils. Possibly sigil of rage?
Not really sure, what would you suggest?

Also another option was to drop the signet mastery trait and swap it for 'mighty defenses' (gain might when you block) to boost up might stacks with shield stance, and run with the banner elite. Only problem is dropping perma fury then.

Edited by Clipse, 04 November 2012 - 08:45 PM.

[NachyoChez]

Firstly, I'ke to apologize.  Some section of my last post has apparently left the impression that you can run Banners and Shouts, get the heals from both, and such.
The intent was to give reasons why someone might consider Banners over shouts (cost of a shout build due to runes, slightly better buffs/dps, etc.) but still explain why I feel VS was just the better choice (no DPS if you're dead).   I hope this clears that up, and I again apologize for the confusion.

Sithicus Dias, on 04 November 2012 - 11:25 AM, said:

This is very interesting, according to the numbers i've been crunching, AND several people running the build, it does seem we have a clear winner don't we .

It does, and my a large margin... which means we're probably in for a nerf :-p

Brand, on 04 November 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

Could you then please link your build in it's entirety?

Of course! I'd like to note that I'm pulling the Valk's in favor of Knight's as I get more resources; making enemies glance just sounds like too much fun, and Vit is becoming next to useless for me.

Brand, on 04 November 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

Also, are you opposing Soldier's runes due to the cost, or saying they are worth it even with the cost?

I am fully, 100%, and unequivocally ENDORSING Soldier's Runes.  They're absolutely worth the cost, and the main reason I was interested in VS to begin with.  But they are pricey, and I could see someone avboiding the build for that reason.

Brand, on 04 November 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

How much HP do you currently have, and how much does a 1400 shout heal with your damage compare to a proper 2200 heal full build (Is the damage gained worth the healing you lose?

26,322, but it drops to 23,172 w/Knight's Trinkets.  For DPS comparison you'll probably want to ask someone who has more expertise with the math.  I will say that you're trading Healing for Precision and a little more Toughness, so it's not MASSIVE either way (from what I've seen).

Brand, on 04 November 2012 - 07:24 PM, said:

Green reply: While I'm not trying to "convert" you, I do feel you were being a little harsh on GS.

Agreed.  I should probably frame my opinions on this one.  I started with GS during the Halloween event, and EVERY SINGLE TIME I went to HB a boss someone would knock it back.  Every time.  No exaggeration.  So I abandoned the GS for a bit, tried it again last night in Orr... player I didn't see knocked it back.  Kinda makes you start hating a weapon :-o

[Sithicus Dias]

Clipse, on 04 November 2012 - 08:38 PM, said:

What do you think of running soldier runes and dropping mending for surge?

You mentioned your only shortcoming appears to be condition removal, so Soldier Runes could be something you want to invest in. Also, you could probably take Surge instead of Mending in that respect.

NachyoChez, on 04 November 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

It does, and my a large margin... which means we're probably in for a nerf :-p

Shhhhhh! Keep it quiet

NachyoChez, on 04 November 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

Agreed.  I should probably frame my opinions on this one.  I started with GS during the Halloween event, and EVERY SINGLE TIME I went to HB a boss someone would knock it back.  Every time.  No exaggeration.  So I abandoned the GS for a bit, tried it again last night in Orr... player I didn't see knocked it back.  Kinda makes you start hating a weapon :-o

Can't fault your reasoning here, some people are far too trigger happy with knock-backs, I mean half the time you just don't need to do it. However with Champions and above, they rarely get knocked back so it's generally ok. I don't really know which is proven better, but I seem to get the impression Greatsword is more powerful than Dual-Axes. Again, the damage side of things isn't something i've theory-crafted in to.

[Brand]

NachyoChez, on 04 November 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

26,322, but it drops to 23,172 w/Knight's Trinkets.

Sorry, I meant Healing Power, not Health Points.

[NachyoChez]

343 w/Valk trinkets and Personal Story Cleric's Back
300 w/Knight's trinkets and other back

[Brand]

Don't you think that's a little too little? OP says max is around 2400 I think, wouldn't 1800ish be a good middle ground? (I'm talking about shout heals, not Healing power, 2400 shout heal would be like 1600 HP)

Edited by Brand, 05 November 2012 - 02:59 AM.

[NachyoChez]

Thankfully, Sith did a GREAT job of breaking down the math for that at varying levels for HP here:
http://www.guildwars...rical-analysis/ (Make sure to read the GDoc!)

Now, one thing to consider is that by sacrificing the +HP I've increased my Toughness by large enough amounts that the reduced healing MIGHT be more.  Now, I AM working on a second set of armor (full clerics), and I'll happily post more anecdotal evidence as I have it.

From the maths, however, the VS build given by sith leaves two COMPLETELY viable styles.  You can stack healing on healing on healing, shoot for the 1600 HP and be the 'healer', or stack toughness w/just 300 HP (traits) and be a great hybrid.

[Brand]

I guess I missed that in all the text haha, so those are your only two options? Is there a way to get say 200-300 more HP without using Cleric's? Do you think you will prefer Cleric's once you get yourt hands on it? Do you think a DPS oriented weapon (Axes/GS) is still viable with cleric's?

[lazykoala]

The problem with the first 2 builds is the 30 in tactics because the minor traits for it are friggin terrible imo. I think anet needs to come up with something better than crappy revive traits that are at best situationally useful. Things like that makes me miss the gw1 dual profession system so much. The regen banner thing is really nice though if you just want to be a regen mule. The hammer build is good for anything not immune to cc (which a lot of things are) so I wouldn't count on that either for any serious pve.

The build I've been using for survivability, but not support consists of: might defenses, inspiring banners, turtles defense, shield master, last stand and great fortitude. Getting all those gives you 5-10 points to spend wherever else you want. I can survive quite a while with this as it provides a high amount of toughness and good vitality, but not much in the way of support for my group other than banners. Usually I have a ranged weapon as my secondary since it is an obvious choice for most dungeons, but if the situation allows it a hammer can help clear out and control trash and then you can switch to the hammer trait if you find yourself using it a lot in repeated runs.

[Brand]

lazykoala, on 05 November 2012 - 04:48 AM, said:

The problem with the first 2 builds is the 30 in tactics because the minor traits for it are friggin terrible imo.

Looks to me like you missed the whole everything about everything here.
The 30 in Tactics is what makes these builds SO GOOD, even if the minor traits do stink.

Not to be rude but try reading the build and other comments before you come in and say "The problem with this build is the build" please.

Edited by Brand, 05 November 2012 - 05:06 AM.

[Roland Der Meister]

Brand, on 05 November 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

Looks to me like you missed the whole everything about everything here.
The 30 in Tactics is what makes these builds SO GOOD, even if the minor traits do stink.

Brand, on 05 November 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

Looks to me like you missed the whole everything about everything here.
The 30 in Tactics is what makes these builds SO GOOD, even if the minor traits do stink.

Only the first 2 traits in tactics suck the last miner is not that bad more mite never hurt any one

[Brand]

They are all based on reviving people, but yes the last one isnt bad, especially if it procs off the Battle Standard rez.

[NachyoChez]

Brand, on 05 November 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

I guess I missed that in all the text haha, so those are your only two options?

There are a LOT of inbetween things you can do; Valk trinkets, Zerk weapons, etc.  I imagine you could even go all Zerk for DPS bursting with the heals just supplementing your group if you wanted; just not my style.

Brand, on 05 November 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

Is there a way to get say 200-300 more HP without using Cleric's?

Cleric's trinkets seem to provide the HP boost you're hunting for.  Strikes a nice balance, if not wanting to go all one was or the other!

Brand, on 05 November 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

Do you think you will prefer Cleric's once you get yourt hands on it?

I will probably use Cleric's in Dungeon EXP with pugs or taking people through for the first time (to help keep less experienced players on their feet).  Maybe even to act as a sort of main healer with my guildies, if the set proves invaluable. Knight's has just proven too good at WvW and general PvE for me to give it up there though!!

Brand, on 05 November 2012 - 04:30 AM, said:

Do you think a DPS oriented weapon (Axes/GS) is still viable with cleric's?

The ONLY thing you're sacrificing by going FULL clerics instead of FULL Knight's is Precision (and some toughness).  This'll drop you to roughly 4% crit rate unbuffed.  There is some DPS lost there, but I doubt it'd be a drastic amount.  DPS shouldn't be the main concern in a set of Cleric's though; you'd be better grabbing a control set of weapons (Hammer or Mace/Shield) and being the perfect survival machine!

Hope this helps!

[JimmyDiddly]

Brand, on 04 November 2012 - 05:40 AM, said:

Long story short (Sort of): BS's CD is way too big to be useful as your go to elite, even if you are supporting. The rez is pretty insignificant due to you being able to rez a player in like 4 seconds, and if you can't rez them chances are they will die (if they died in an AoE) before you can lay down your banner (If a player is "Dead" not just downed, the banner WILL NOT rez them). If you want more regen USE ANOTHER BANNER not your Elite slot with a 240/192 second CD (Normal banner is 90 seconds long with a 96 sec CD, 6 seconds of downtime, and if you're really crazy about it, a few of the banners give buffs, such as Fury/Regen using the 2 skill)

Basically SoR is up more, and is often more useful, sometimes you will want BS though, but SoR is basically every warrior's "Go to" Elite in all situations.

And seriously, read through the comments, some great info in there.

I've just been skimming through the comments, as I said I've been running a similar build so I've only been looking out for things which I have my own skepticism of on my own build. I only thought I'd ask about BS because I put a high value on mobility and being able to do things quickly and efficiently.

As a support, I don't agree SoR is your go to elite for warrior. I don't even agree that all warriors should be using SoR. In a team setup I think BS is much better and you should only get SoR if you think either

A. The dungeon itself isn't likely to kill anyone unless they're really bad or unfamiliar with the dungeon

B. You don't care at all if anyone goes down and you live and breathe to dps

In my opinion, you can't compare a battle res that you can do on the move to to something that's only gives you the buffs unless you're going with a completely self centered playstyle. (Not saying that's an entirely bad thing, but you better be able to back it up with high dps and not die yourself)

There are many points where being able to res on the move is just infinitely better, either because you want the group to remain cohesive (Say you're running burrows in AC and someone gets caught by a scavenger) or stopping to res that person will get you (or your teammates if they stop to res him) killed as well (Giganticus is just one example of this)

I don't agree at all with your assessment that 4 seconds is minute and insignificant to just stop and res them. 4 seconds can be a really long time to have to stop and pick someone up, especially if more than 1 person is downed.

Also, I don't run banner for additional regen. I run a shout warrior, I don't have the talent for regen on banners. I use IB because in my experience, BS can make a huge difference in encounters and also because the none of the other first tier Tactics talents are particularly impressive. +70 power to allies is okay I suppose, and I've never used Empowered so I can't really speak for how useful it is.

(I mixed up acronyms for Inspired Banners vs. inspiring Battle Standards)

Edited by JimmyDiddly, 05 November 2012 - 05:55 AM.

[Roland Der Meister]

SoR is just a slightly better FgJ and Quite frankly FgJ is the better one of the 2 and its none elite works for all party members beside the adrin gain and with FgJ and BS I can upkeep well almost a perma fury and 3 stack mite bring a second banner like the crit dmg or boon duration banner and a control skill like say stomp or fear and you got a very versatile war any way SoR is kinda a selfish skill where you culd take BS even if its a long CD sided with FgJ the CD of it is nothing to bat a eye at