170 replies to this topic

[Brand]

Not to be so matter of fact about it, but you are highly overstating the usefulness of that Rez...

1) When you enter a battle you should drop BS nigh immediately, thus putting it on CD for 192 seconds, that's 3 minutes where a person can die, chances are you'll have to rez them yourself. The problem here is that you are trading a 5 second ish rez for each player downed during the course of 192 seconds, for a one time rez of MAYBE 2 people, most likely 1 person every 192 seconds, and then you have to self rez them anyhow. This is all not even mentioning that with tactics you get many things that increase your ability to rez people, and that if they are dead, AKA their downed action bar is gone then the BS will not rez them. If you use BS to rez you're wasting all of those minor traits (The last one grants might when you rez someone, which is very dumb to pass up, though it could work when you banner rez someone, no tests yet but I doubt it does).

2) While BS does buff the group and that is very useful, it is clunky, hard to pick up and be mobile with, the rez is wasted if you use it when it comes of CD. the dps is wasted if you don't use it and wait for someone to get downed. SoR gives you mobility (What VS builds like), speed, and damage, and there is no reason not to use it everytime it comes off CD as it is short and lasts for 3/4 of the CD which is very good.

Sometimes BS is useful, most of the time it just isn't. The rez is nearly a moot point, especially with all the tactics rez traits, the mobility is awful, the duration is awful and the CD is awful. The only good thing it brings is that it buffs the group, but if you think about it, you get 45(I think?) seconds of BS for every 192 seconds ( 4 stacks of might, fury and swiftness for the duration, however since the duration is SO SMALL on those buffs, the amount they stack even with 30% boon duration will only leave you with maybe 10 extra seconds of Swiftness and fury, and that's just for YOU, no one else gets those extra 10 seconds) So lets say 45 seconds of BS for 192 seconds. SoR gives 30 seconds of swiftness, fury and 5 stacks of might for every 48 seconds. Meaning, in the same 192 seconds, you can use SoR 4 times (160 seconds) as opposed to 1 for BS (45 seconds), and also, since the stacks of fury and swiftness last for 40 seconds, alls it takes is a little tiny bit (FGJ keeps fury and might) to keep those as effectively PERMANANT BUFFS.

Now take into account all this, and you can plainly see that SoR is superior in almost all situations, the fact of the matter is that SoR buffs YOU only slightly less than BS buffs you AND all your allies, add in the huge CD, lack of mobility, the boons not being permanant, and the rez being less than useful.

Now maybe you see what I mean, and everyone else has been talking about when they say SoR is basically better.

[Roland Der Meister]

Brand, on 05 November 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

Not to be so matter of fact about it, but you are highly overstating the usefulness of that Rez...

1) When you enter a battle you should drop BS nigh immediately, thus putting it on CD for 192 seconds, that's 3 minutes where a person can die, chances are you'll have to rez them yourself. The problem here is that you are trading a 5 second ish rez for each player downed during the course of 192 seconds, for a one time rez of MAYBE 2 people, most likely 1 person every 192 seconds, and then you have to self rez them anyhow. This is all not even mentioning that with tactics you get many things that increase your ability to rez people, and that if they are dead, AKA their downed action bar is gone then the BS will not rez them. If you use BS to rez you're wasting all of those minor traits (The last one grants might when you rez someone, which is very dumb to pass up, though it could work when you banner rez someone, no tests yet but I doubt it does).

2) While BS does buff the group and that is very useful, it is clunky, hard to pick up and be mobile with, the rez is wasted if you use it when it comes of CD. the dps is wasted if you don't use it and wait for someone to get downed. SoR gives you mobility (What VS builds like), speed, and damage, and there is no reason not to use it everytime it comes off CD as it is short and lasts for 3/4 of the CD which is very good.

Sometimes BS is useful, most of the time it just isn't. The rez is nearly a moot point, especially with all the tactics rez traits, the mobility is awful, the duration is awful and the CD is awful. The only good thing it brings is that it buffs the group, but if you think about it, you get 45(I think?) seconds of BS for every 192 seconds ( 4 stacks of might, fury and swiftness for the duration, however since the duration is SO SMALL on those buffs, the amount they stack even with 30% boon duration will only leave you with maybe 10 extra seconds of Swiftness and fury, and that's just for YOU, no one else gets those extra 10 seconds) So lets say 45 seconds of BS for 192 seconds. SoR gives 30 seconds of swiftness, fury and 5 stacks of might for every 48 seconds. Meaning, in the same 192 seconds, you can use SoR 4 times (160 seconds) as opposed to 1 for BS (45 seconds), and also, since the stacks of fury and swiftness last for 40 seconds, alls it takes is a little tiny bit (FGJ keeps fury and might) to keep those as effectively PERMANANT BUFFS.

Now take into account all this, and you can plainly see that SoR is superior in almost all situations, the fact of the matter is that SoR buffs YOU only slightly less than BS buffs you AND all your allies, add in the huge CD, lack of mobility, the boons not being permanant, and the rez being less than useful.

Now maybe you see what I mean, and everyone else has been talking about when they say SoR is basically better.

I will take For Great justice and BS over SoR any day in a support oriented build why bar compression i can take shake it off or stomp or the fear shout or any other control skills wasting an elite slot over a selfish signit skill in a support build is lolz even if BS rezing sucks

[Brand]

It isnt being selfish though... It's being selfish in the same way that you and 4 friends need to eat 10 chili peppers, BS = you each take two, Sor = You take 6 and the rest each get one. What people tend to forget is that helping yourself IS STILL helping the team. As long as Sor is better for you, than BS is for your whole team, it is still better for the team if you take SoR. If you have a stomach of lead and can eat those 5 chili peppers, why wouldn't you do that? It's STILL HELPING THE TEAM.

[Roland Der Meister]

Brand, on 05 November 2012 - 07:06 AM, said:

It isnt being selfish though... It's being selfish in the same way that you and 4 friends need to eat 10 chili peppers, BS = you each take two, Sor = You take 6 and the rest each get one. What people tend to forget is that helping yourself IS STILL helping the team. As long as Sor is better for you, than BS is for your whole team, it is still better for the team if you take SoR. If you have a stomach of lead and can eat those 5 chili peppers, why wouldn't you do that? It's STILL HELPING THE TEAM.

The only thing the signit is giving you that FGJ is not is the speed boost but you can simply switch to  sword and warhorn and give vigor and swiftness to the party and my self letting the party dodge/kite more not to mention curing movment impairments and still up keeping mite/fury on the party the bottom line is you take away from the over all DPS useing the signit even if it benefits your personal dps but you personal dps is not as good as boosting the dps of yourself and 4 other party members then again personal preference is what matters  some people like BS and some dont

[Brand]

Yes, FGJ and SoR are the same, that is why one of them has 6.5 more seconds and 2 more stacks of might, 29.6 more seconds of fury, and 40 seconds of an entirely new buff, swiftness. That's what I call exactly the same. The point here that I am making is IF SoR benefits your DPS more than BS helps the party then you should use it, more often than not SoR does boost yours more than BS boosts everyones.

[NachyoChez]

BS is a terrible, terrible skill.
On the rare occasion that I run a banner warrior, I STILL don't run that skill.  Why?

1 out of every 4 minutes I can add an extra 3 seconds of fury, 10 might, and 3 seconds of stability to FGJ.  That's 3 minutes of NOTHING.  No Elite.  Nada.  Using the BS for the buff is like using a butter knife on week-old bread.  It's not cutting it.  Which means the only reason I can see wanting to bring this banner is to rez a fallen ally; but even at this it fails miserably.

I'm going to assume we're discussing use in dungeons, since that seemed to be the theme of the examples given.  In a dungeon, you can pretty much break the fights into 3 basic categories: Trash. Boss, and Trap.

The weakness of the banner is ESPECIALLY significant against trash mobs.  See, BS doesn't revive a player from a defeated state, only a downed one and it only does that when initially set down.  Which means killing a mob that the player has tagged is enough to bring them back on their feet, which means almost ANY elite the warrior carries has the same impact on the fight as BS, if you even need an elite to burn down trash.  If the pull was so bad that you have multiple players down before you can burn a single piece of trash...well, the BS probably isn't going to bring them back for long.

Bosses present a different scenario.  Here the players might get 1-shotted to a downed state, and glorious BS can save the day!  Except that if you use the banner to help DPS in ANY part of the fight it's probably still on cooldown.  If you don't use it for DPS boost though then you're elite is literally giving you nothing.  The skill could literally be called catch-22 in almost any major fight.

This leaves traps.  Here BS is actually moderately useful.  If a player goes down due to a trap you can revive them from safety (assuming the trap only downs them), have them pick it up, and speed buff to safety! In that situation, though, I would switch to BS when going into the room, then back to something else once it's clear.  Any IN fighting situation I've seen I'd rather have SoR equipped than BS.

tl;dr
BS. The initials fit.

[TakumiUsui]

I absolutely agree with NachyoChez!

The Same goes for the other Banners too, they are absolutely useless compared to the Shouts or other Utilities.

[Brand]

Oh sure >.> I get a ton of flak and Nachyo comes in here and says what I said but prettier and people are like "Yeah Nachyo!"
Thanks for stealing my thunder, bro ;^;

[NachyoChez]

Brand, on 05 November 2012 - 10:01 AM, said:

Oh sure >.> I get a ton of flak and Nachyo comes in here and says what I said but prettier and people are like "Yeah Nachyo!"
Thanks for stealing my thunder, bro ;^;

I didn't steal yo thunder; I brought the lightning :-p
Teamwork!

[Roland Der Meister]

NachyoChez, on 05 November 2012 - 09:39 AM, said:

BS is a terrible, terrible skill.
On the rare occasion that I run a banner warrior, I STILL don't run that skill.  Why?

1 out of every 4 minutes I can add an extra 3 seconds of fury, 10 might, and 3 seconds of stability to FGJ.  That's 3 minutes of NOTHING.  No Elite.  Nada.  Using the BS for the buff is like using a butter knife on week-old bread.  It's not cutting it.  Which means the only reason I can see wanting to bring this banner is to rez a fallen ally; but even at this it fails miserably.

I'm going to assume we're discussing use in dungeons, since that seemed to be the theme of the examples given.  In a dungeon, you can pretty much break the fights into 3 basic categories: Trash. Boss, and Trap.

The weakness of the banner is ESPECIALLY significant against trash mobs.  See, BS doesn't revive a player from a defeated state, only a downed one and it only does that when initially set down.  Which means killing a mob that the player has tagged is enough to bring them back on their feet, which means almost ANY elite the warrior carries has the same impact on the fight as BS, if you even need an elite to burn down trash.  If the pull was so bad that you have multiple players down before you can burn a single piece of trash...well, the BS probably isn't going to bring them back for long.

Bosses present a different scenario.  Here the players might get 1-shotted to a downed state, and glorious BS can save the day!  Except that if you use the banner to help DPS in ANY part of the fight it's probably still on cooldown.  If you don't use it for DPS boost though then you're elite is literally giving you nothing.  The skill could literally be called catch-22 in almost any major fight.

This leaves traps.  Here BS is actually moderately useful.  If a player goes down due to a trap you can revive them from safety (assuming the trap only downs them), have them pick it up, and speed buff to safety! In that situation, though, I would switch to BS when going into the room, then back to something else once it's clear.  Any IN fighting situation I've seen I'd rather have SoR equipped than BS.

tl;dr
BS. The initials fit.

Banners are for some not for others

Edited by Roland Der Meister, 05 November 2012 - 10:19 AM.

[Brand]

I'm feeling such an odd mixture of pride and mortal terror that this thread has come down to weather puns.
But ok, I can deal with being thunder, I brought the heavy points to the table, and you refined them to be more precise, so yeah. Sure.
I have been thinking of a build using the adrenaline shouts trait that might make use of BS and GS F1, that's the only time I can think of it being useful though.

[Sithicus Dias]

First of all, the topic of SoR vs BS is a recurring topic, and has been mentioned several times before as being Subjective, it's YOUR decision, there is no right or wrong. So BS people, stop dismissing SoR as "Selfish", these builds are already geared around supporting a team, you don't need to eliminate every facet of your DPS to do so. In fact, one of my biggest frustrations of late is teams that lack DPS. Admittedly by default, i'm quite a bad offender for that, but I make up for my own lacking DPS with burst healing for my allies. However Mesmers are even worse offenders. I really do notice a marked reduction in team DPS with a Mesmer(s) present. As such my point is this: You cannot sacrifice all of your DPS, you need to be able to bring some to a fight. This is why I do not have 1672 (the theoretical maximum healing power, if not, it's very close), and I only have ~1000, because to wholly go for Cleric's would make me useless damage wise. Yet I can be a viable team supporter, and still deal damage. That's the point of gearing yourself at least a little bit towards damage.

Also, I seem to notice a trend amongst the critics of SoR, you sing the praises of BS having a rez. Let me ask you this, do you in fact realise just how quickly you can resurrect a downed ally? Seriously it's less than 5 seconds (providing they aren't still being smacked really hard), watch the party window, know where your allies are, react quickly. It's the responsibility of every individual to know what is happening around them. I mean since I burst heal, I always watch party health bars, wouldn't want to over-heal would I? Your argument for BS being so great MIGHT hold if resurrecting was incredibly difficult/nigh on impossible. But can you name a scenario where resurrecting is incredibly difficult? I can, Giganticus Lupicus, which is why I take BS without fail for that fight, but 99% of other fights? I'll just rez allies myself, because it's easy, and very very quick.

And also, FGJ really is not the same as SoR, stop acting like it is.

TakumiUsui, on 05 November 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

The Same goes for the other Banners too, they are absolutely useless compared to the Shouts or other Utilities.

I don't think team-wide bonuses of 90 to Power and Condition Damage (Banner of Strength) as well as 90 Precision and 10% Crit damage (Banner of Discipline) are "absolutely useless". Plus of course, the regeneration.

[Belphor]

Nice threads you have here! Just made an account to reply to this topic.
I was writing my own little "shout-warrior-guide" when i got linked here and it really is amazing, although i play my warrior way more offensive.

My goal was a warrior with lots of dps, good support and high survivability. When i first heard of the soldier-rune i instantly fell in love.

I play it like this:

http://www.guildhead...Rb08070V7kNc70V

I use knight armor and berserker weapons/trinkets. I only got 150 +HP from defense but shouts are strong enough as they are (my opinion). I can deal tons of damage and still support my team. Most of the time i am the first person to charge into battle and the last one who dies (but that is rather rare ;D).
This is just the right mix for me. I can use this to do PvE, dungeons and WvW and it works perfectly.

sorry for my poor english but greets from germany

[dawdler]

TakumiUsui, on 05 November 2012 - 09:45 AM, said:

The Same goes for the other Banners too, they are absolutely useless compared to the Shouts or other Utilities.

I strongly dissagree. Banners are quite good when you trait them... Its just that the Battle Standard is complete and utter crap regardless of traits. I run a banner build and would still not use that BS - using the signet and a regular banner is a far better deal than using a shout like FgJ and the BS. For what you get, the cooldown is simply too long. Reduce it to say 100s and it'll end up in another ballpark.

Edited by dawdler, 05 November 2012 - 05:26 PM.

[NachyoChez]

Roland Der Meister, on 05 November 2012 - 10:17 AM, said:

Banners are for some not for others

I agree that banners should be run by some.  The buffs they give are solid, and they don't require specialized gear to have an impact on the fight (Like soldier's runes).  VS is better at healing, and that's just a fact, but your build might not revolve around healing, and you want stronger DPS for the party as a whole; please by all means pack some banners. Heck, pack 3 of them!

But even when you run banners, SoR is a better elite than BS.

[Sithicus Dias]

Belphor, on 05 November 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

Nice threads you have here! Just made an account to reply to this topic.
I was writing my own little "shout-warrior-guide" when i got linked here and it really is amazing, although i play my warrior way more offensive.

...

I play it like this:

http://www.guildhead...Rb08070V7kNc70V

Hi Belphor, welcome to the thread First of all, i'm glad you're interested in Shout Healing, and feel free to share any ideas, then I can add them to the OP (credited to you of course!)

I like your build, putting your remaining traits into Arms is a good idea if you want to try and maximize the damage you do while running Vigorous Shouts. I'll probably give something like this a go soon, but currently I've been using Mace/Shield and Hammer, and weapon swapping at every opportunity (trying out 2x Superior Sigil of Leeching too, for ~900 heal on each weapon swap). So right now i'm definitely focussing more on control.

NachyoChez, on 05 November 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

I agree that banners should be run by some.  The buffs they give are solid, and they don't require specialized gear to have an impact on the fight (Like soldier's runes).  VS is better at healing, and that's just a fact, but your build might not revolve around healing, and you want stronger DPS for the party as a whole; please by all means pack some banners. Heck, pack 3 of them!

But even when you run banners, SoR is a better elite than BS.

Summarized very nicely here, I have a tendency to *intend* to be concise, but i always waffle quite a bit! I think some people don't completely grasp that ultimately Banners vs Shouts are different builds, the Healing mechanic is different for each, so it's difficult to actually compare individual facets of them. It's like comparing Warrior GS to Hunter GS, they're different things

[Brand]

Off topic: Why do people keep saying "FgJ" instead of "FGJ"? This confuses me.

On topic:

Belphor, on 05 November 2012 - 05:17 PM, said:

My goal was a warrior with lots of dps, good support and high survivability. When i first heard of the soldier-rune i instantly fell in love.

I play it like this:

http://www.guildhead...Rb08070V7kNc70V

First off, your English is fine, better use of it than the majority of English people who type online, so thanks for stopping by.

Secondly, and related to that quote, there are a few things I'd like to let you know about to increase your builds performance a little:

1) Adrenal Health is NOT worth it, I used to think it was great, it's really not all that good.
2) Turtle's Defense is also not all that good in this situation, mostly because you have SO MUCH condition removal with Soldier's runes, and "Shake It Off!" for when you get stunned.
3) Attack of Opportunity is also NOT worth it, and I'll let you know why in just a moment.
4) Adrenaline Surge, use it. Healing Signet is worse here and I'll show you why in a moment.

What you can do to fix these small issues:

1) Put 10 points into Strength, this will give you the Berserker's Power trait, with it you gain 12% damage at max adrenaline (The GS F1 is pretty bad, so just leave your adrenaline at max) This is 2% more than Attack of Opportunity, and it is constant, not just when you have bleeds (Also since you don't use a rifle your bleeds are diminished)

2) Put 10 points in Discipline, this gives you the Heightened Focus trait, for 9% crit while at full adrenaline.

As you can see these traits synergize greatly with the complexity of a shout build and the suckiness of the F1 skill for GS (It's hard to maintain the shouts as  it is, let alone trying to watch your adrenaline and use a worthless burst skill). Not only that, but this works FANTABULOUS with Healing Surge. Since you are always at max adrenaline, you are always going to get that 9k heal. This makes Healing Signet downright smelly.

You will be tanky enough without the 15 points in defense, so move them around and get an awesome boost of 12% damage, 9% crit, and a 9k (Or more) heal.

Now keep in mind you don't have to listen to me, and I'm not telling you what to do. I'm merely pointing out things that would increase your builds performance in the way you want it (Good DPS, nice survivabilty, and heals).

I've been here for a bit and have been thinking hard (I want the same things you are striving for, I also use GS) and this is so far the best build I have come up with for maximum potency of damage, while keeping your heals good and your survivability enough to.. well.. survive.

Edited by Brand, 05 November 2012 - 07:59 PM.

[RyuuAkari]

Brand, on 05 November 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

Off topic: Why do people keep saying "FgJ" instead of "FGJ"? This confuses me.

On topic:



First off, your English is fine, better use of it than the majority of English people who type online, so thanks for stopping by.

Secondly, and related to that quote, there are a few things I'd like to let you know about to increase your builds performance a little:

1) Adrenal Health is NOT worth it, I used to think it was great, it's really not all that good.
2) Turtle's Defense is also not all that good in this situation, mostly because you have SO MUCH condition removal with Soldier's runes, and "Shake It Off!" for when you get stunned.
3) Attack of Opportunity is also NOT worth it, and I'll let you know why in just a moment.
4) Adrenaline Surge, use it. Healing Signet is worse here and I'll show you why in a moment.

What you can do to fix these small issues:

1) Put 10 points into Strength, this will give you the Berserker's Power trait, with it you gain 12% damage at max adrenaline (The GS F1 is pretty bad, so just leave your adrenaline at max) This is 2% more than Attack of Opportunity, and it is constant, not just when you have bleeds (Also since you don't use a rifle your bleeds are diminished)

2) Put 10 points in Discipline, this gives you the Heightened Focus trait, for 9% crit while at full adrenaline.

As you can see these traits synergize greatly with the complexity of a shout build and the suckiness of the F1 skill for GS (It's hard to maintain the shouts as  it is, let alone trying to watch your adrenaline and use a worthless burst skill). Not only that, but this works FANTABULOUS with Healing Surge. Since you are always at max adrenaline, you are always going to get that 9k heal. This makes Healing Signet downright smelly.

You will be tanky enough without the 15 points in defense, so move them around and get an awesome boost of 12% damage, 9% crit, and a 9k (Or more) heal.

If this was CoE... i'd feel sorry for you cause you'd run out with endurance so fast. on the other hand you either have to save your skill 3 gs for a safety dodge, or think smart when you have to dodge. I personally prefer to have at least 20 points in strength just to have some sort of "infinity dodge" as long you pop your burst skill correct. And with good tanking comes with good dodging. but these are just my personal opinion I don't know what you other think.

[Brand]

Well you aren't really a "tank", guardians make better "tanks" you are basically just a support. Many people run builds without 20 points in strength, I mean sure if you use your burst all the time and whatever that's fine for you, but not having 20 points there isn't going to kill you (Literally). We are already building very tanky with Knight's, Cleric's, and Soldier's equipment. As long as you play smart and use the GS skills to your advantage, you shouldn't get hit by anything you don't want to get hit by.

[Brand]

I just posted this on the Suggestions forum in the GW2 website. I think this is an awesome idea for all warriors, especially shout warriors, and a huge shout out to the Paragon class of GW1 (If you think so too, please reply posting your approval of it)

https://forum-en.gui...n-Racial-Skills

[lazykoala]

I have to agree with several of the above posts. BS is pretty underwhelming and I think the regular battle standards are actually better for most situations since they will be up a much higher percentage of the time. There are so many elite skills that are just below average for many professions and really, this whole skill system makes me miss the dual professions in gw1. I'd rather have 10 bazillion different skills and make it impossible to balance rather than have just a few like it is now and make it easier to balance...and even now it's really not balanced anyway.

[Brand]

So we have the full tank support build that Sith runs, the dps/support build that me and a few others run... I think thats really all the viable options we have for VS...

Oh and the gimmicky 60% might duration build that no one has tried yet.

Edited by Brand, 06 November 2012 - 08:41 AM.

[Belphor]

Brand, on 05 November 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

1) Adrenal Health is NOT worth it, I used to think it was great, it's really not all that good.
2) Turtle's Defense is also not all that good in this situation, mostly because you have SO MUCH condition removal with Soldier's runes, and "Shake It Off!" for when you get stunned.
3) Attack of Opportunity is also NOT worth it, and I'll let you know why in just a moment.
4) Adrenaline Surge, use it. Healing Signet is worse here and I'll show you why in a moment.

What you can do to fix these small issues:

1) Put 10 points into Strength, this will give you the Berserker's Power trait, with it you gain 12% damage at max adrenaline (The GS F1 is pretty bad, so just leave your adrenaline at max) This is 2% more than Attack of Opportunity, and it is constant, not just when you have bleeds (Also since you don't use a rifle your bleeds are diminished)

2) Put 10 points in Discipline, this gives you the Heightened Focus trait, for 9% crit while at full adrenaline.

As you can see these traits synergize greatly with the complexity of a shout build and the suckiness of the F1 skill for GS (It's hard to maintain the shouts as  it is, let alone trying to watch your adrenaline and use a worthless burst skill). Not only that, but this works FANTABULOUS with Healing Surge. Since you are always at max adrenaline, you are always going to get that 9k heal. This makes Healing Signet downright smelly.

You will be tanky enough without the 15 points in defense, so move them around and get an awesome boost of 12% damage, 9% crit, and a 9k (Or more) heal.

Now keep in mind you don't have to listen to me, and I'm not telling you what to do. I'm merely pointing out things that would increase your builds performance in the way you want it (Good DPS, nice survivabilty, and heals).

I've been here for a bit and have been thinking hard (I want the same things you are striving for, I also use GS) and this is so far the best build I have come up with for maximum potency of damage, while keeping your heals good and your survivability enough to.. well.. survive.

Well that is kind of funny. I used to play it just like this. But i changed my mind when i started to play more WvW and dungeons.

1) Adrenal Health heals ~50% of your Healing Signet with 0 +HP (sadly it is not affected by +HP). Healing Signet heals ~210 every second and Adrenal Health heals ~380 every 3 seconds (~1000 every 3 sec -> 10k in 30 sec). I just prefer at least some sort of passive regeneration. With these two skills i can completely focus on fighting and shouting without worrying about the perfect timing for my healing skill. You can call it pure laziness ;D

2) I only got Turtle's Defense because i really wanted Adrenal Health. But it is not that bad. If all your shouts are on CD and you get slowed/stunned, you really want that 200 toughness especially in WvW. It is like my "last resort". But if you are in this situation in WvW you will most likely die anyway^^

3) Attack of Opportunity is just an extra. I got 5 points left to spend so i took the extra percision.

4) As explained in 1)

It is true that Berserker's Power and Hightened Focus are great with this build, but i felt some kind of squishy in some situations so i decided to go for more "tank".
When i switched to more defense my equip was some yellow-green-mix-crap. It is possible that full exo already makes the difference i was looking for.

I will give it a second chance. But as mentioned above i am very lazy so it has to work in dungeons and WvW at the same time.

[Sithicus Dias]

lazykoala, on 06 November 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

There are so many elite skills that are just below average for many professions and really, this whole skill system makes me miss the dual professions in gw1.

I agree with you here, since Signet of Rage is the only short cooldown DPS burst for a Warrior, it's essentially a no-brainer half of the time. So when we consider that, and how BS has it's uses occasionally, other than that, the elites are pretty much never used.

Brand, on 05 November 2012 - 07:53 PM, said:

2) Turtle's Defense is also not all that good in this situation, mostly because you have SO MUCH condition removal with Soldier's runes, and "Shake It Off!" for when you get stunned.

I see where you are coming from with this, but TD is a trait I grew to love in Arah. I agree there is a lot of condition removal, but because Cripple/Chill/Immobilize etc, are very harmless conditions, you don't need to prioritize removing them. If this talent came into effect under poison/bleed it would be fairly unsustainable, because you can't leave bleed/poison unchecked, it's too dangerous. The 200 Toughness you get for basically just being movement-impaired is a good trade-off.

However like "Shrug it Off" the situation must demand it, for it to be useful, if you know you'll get crippled a lot, it can't hurt to take it. The First trait in Defense will always kind of be like that, a situational buff that varies all the time.

[Brand]

Belphor, on 06 November 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

Well that is kind of funny. I used to play it just like this. But i changed my mind when i started to play more WvW and dungeons.

1) Adrenal Health heals ~50% of your Healing Signet with 0 +HP (sadly it is not affected by +HP). Healing Signet heals ~210 every second and Adrenal Health heals ~380 every 3 seconds (~1000 every 3 sec -> 10k in 30 sec). I just prefer at least some sort of passive regeneration. With these two skills i can completely focus on fighting and shouting without worrying about the perfect timing for my healing skill. You can call it pure laziness ;D

2) I only got Turtle's Defense because i really wanted Adrenal Health. But it is not that bad. If all your shouts are on CD and you get slowed/stunned, you really want that 200 toughness especially in WvW. It is like my "last resort". But if you are in this situation in WvW you will most likely die anyway^^

3) Attack of Opportunity is just an extra. I got 5 points left to spend so i took the extra percision.

4) As explained in 1)

It is true that Berserker's Power and Hightened Focus are great with this build, but i felt some kind of squishy in some situations so i decided to go for more "tank".
When i switched to more defense my equip was some yellow-green-mix-crap. It is possible that full exo already makes the difference i was looking for.

I will give it a second chance. But as mentioned above i am very lazy so it has to work in dungeons and WvW at the same time.

Like I said I wont try to force anything onto you, but we've been discussing this a while and with Sith's help have come to discover that with either of the builds you SHOULD go for broke.

If you want to have that extra tankiness, you need to pick up Cleric's, 30Defense, etc and become the tanky/support guy.
If you want that extra damage you need to pick up Knight's, and 10/20/0/30/10, etc and become the dps/support guy.
If you go dps/support and put points into your tankiness, you're cutting your dps by huge amounts, and same goes if you go tank/support and pull out traits for more dps you are only hurting your build.

For maximum effectiveness you really need to choose one road or the other.
I mean if that works for you then cool but I'm just letting you know that your potential is being cut :/ Just remember that you aren't SUPPOSED to be able to do EVERYTHING. No one expects you to be able to deal good damage, support good and control good. You basically need to pick two and max them out (Kind like traits, you could spread 15 points in 4 lines and 10 in one, but you're not really becoming "All in one" you're just ruining the perfect "2 out of 3" that you could be.)

[Sithicus Dias]

Belphor, on 06 November 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

I will give it a second chance. But as mentioned above i am very lazy so it has to work in dungeons and WvW at the same time.

I was running around WvW for a while over the weekend, gave my Mace/Shield and Rifle combo with my traditional VS build. Works really nicely, you're incredibly hard to take down. So ensuring all the basics like "don't run in to a Zerg" you're in a really good position for survivability and supporting allies. Also, the damage output is better than I thought...

[Brand]

I hereby declare that this shall be the new Shout Warrior catch phrase.

"Shake It On My Great Justice!"

Edited by Brand, 07 November 2012 - 12:23 PM.

[Sithicus Dias]

Brand, on 06 November 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

I hereby declare that this shall be the new Shout Warrior catch phrase.
No man wishes to hear his enemy speak these words, and no team lacking them shall be free of fear.

"Shake It On My Great Justice!"

VVV -Click the box- VVV

Awesome

[Brand]

So after talking with Sith about my build, we decided that I should go with stacking Might duration. I've been in the Mists all night testing the build with the various Sigils, Runes, and Amulets (Amulets are basically the Prefix you want to use in PvE, Knight's, Cleric's, etc). I believe now I have found the perfect build for those of us seeking not a Tank/Control/Heal Warrior, but a Damage/Heal/Boon Warrior.

Fimconte, on 02 November 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

Also in my mind, 2 Water / Monk runes go into every armor set.

Combined with Tactics 30 it equals a permanent +3 might stacks from FGJ alone (105 power/210 total).
+ extra stacks from SoR, Strength Sigil and Forceful Greatsword. Keeping 20-25 stacks up is very easy.
+ perma-Fury.

Originally the build was to use Rune of Hoelbrak x2, Rune of Fire x2, and Rune of Strength x2. However, after some testing, and with a little tip from Fimconte up there, I removed the Runes of Hoelbrak.

After toying with it some, I realized that when you have 40% Might duration, and you add the extra 20% making it then 60% you get ~57 seconds of Might from SoR. I then used the 15% Boon duration, and got ~56 seconds of Might. Since these values are almost identical, it is better to take the Monk runes for 15% Boon duration, as then you get 45% total Boon duration, assisting with Boon upkeep other than Might. You do then exchange 25 Power for 25 Healing, but you do want a little bit of extra healing anyway, and the small loss in damage won't hurt you. So without further delay, I present a brand (Get it? Brand!) new build:

No man wishes to hear his enemy speak these words.

No team lacking these words shall be free of fear.

Know these words and shout!

VVV -Click the box- VVV

"Shake It On My Great Justice!"

Thrusting in the Buff

Boon Greatsword

10/20/0/30/10

Trait Lines

Berserker's Power and Heightened Focus
These Traits in conjunction with Healing Surge will make the most out of having max Adrenaline, and never using your Burst.

Rending Strikes and Forceful Greatsword
The key to this build is receiving Might from critical hits with the Greatsword, and gaining Vulnerability on critical hits supports your team and increases your damage.

Empowered and the Tactics Traits
We go into Tactics for the Boon duration and survivability. By doing so we gain Vigorous Shouts to support and heal our allies using Shouts, and Lung Capacity to enhance Vigorous Shouts. Empowered is used over other Traits here due to the nature of the build. You will be gaining a constant 5% damage increase from your own boons that are nigh permanent, and thanks to your 45% Boon duration, any Boons that your allies happen to give you will stay on you longer and help increase your damage even more.

Utility Skills

"Shake It Off!"
This is your group Condition remover, use it wisely. Conditions like Immobilize, Chill, and Cripple should not be removed with this skill. Prioritize damaging Conditions like Bleeds, Poison, Vulnerability, Burning, etc.

"On My Mark!"
Your constant group 5% damage buff, to be used whenever it is off Cooldown. This skill also puts a red ring around the called enemy's feet, this can be useful if you are in a pug and need to call a target.

"For Great Justice!"
Another great synergy in this build, this skill allows you to give yourself permanent Fury and Might even if you aren't in combat. This should be used whenever it comes of Cooldown.

Elite Skill

Signet of Rage
Due to your Boon duration, Might duration, and the combination of this skill and "For Great Justice!", you can have permanent Fury, Might, and nearly permanent Swiftness. In this build this Elite is more useful than Battle Standard as the amount of damage you give yourself surpasses the amount you would give to your allies with Battle Standard. It is a great Elite and what it lacks in "team" support it makes up for in mobility, damage, and it's short Cooldown. In a small number of circumstances the resurrection ability of Battle Standard does make it marginally more useful than this Signet of Rage.

Gear and Gems

Knight's Armor
You will want Knight's gear for this build as it will give you enough Precision and Toughness to reach maximum stacks of Might, without being downed easily. Cleric's gear will increase your healing and support capabilities, but it will only water down your damage.

Gems and Accessories
For this build it is best to take a mixture of Sapphire (Cleric's stats) and Ruby (Berserker's stats) Gems and Accessories. The reason for this is that your damage is already top notch for this type of build, but your healing is a little mediocre. Taking up some gear with Cleric's stats will help to enhance your healing and group support. This will also make the most out of the 25 Healing that you already have from the Monk Runes. Mix and match them as you please, find the numbers that you are comfortable with.

Sigils and Runes
To maximize Might gains we have put Sigil of Strength into our Greatsword and Spear, and to get more delicious Vulnerability when we swap weapons we have Sigil of Frailty in our Rifle and Harpoon Gun. The Runes used maximize Might duration, increase Power and Healing, and increase our overall Boon Duration. These allow us to have a few permanent Boons, and keep useful but unnecessary Boons around for longer. Therefore increasing our damage, survivability, and support.

Edited by Brand, 08 November 2012 - 06:22 AM.

[Sithicus Dias]

Added a consumables section to each build to give some ideas of food/potions etc that can help to supplement your build. Consumables are interesting since they extend beyond a damage/defensive buff, and can effect the duration of boons and conditions, which mean they could be a significant factor in extending the effectiveness of a particular facet of your build. For example, do you bleed enemies a lot? There's food for improving that

Tonight i'm going to finish drafting my take on an offensive hybrid of VS, it's been in the works for some days now, so i'll add it to the OP later. I got the idea originally from the boon duration runes, and by crunching some more numbers in the Numerical thread, I realised that you can enhance your damage a lot more, by sacrificing not a huge amount of healing. Watch this space...