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Beat Mode PvE/WvW "Ultra Guardian" Build - High Damage, Good Survivability

guardian build pvp wvw wvwvw pve dungeons support dps high damage

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#91 StKasapin

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Posted 15 November 2012 - 03:56 PM

View Postjpg1, on 15 November 2012 - 12:15 AM, said:

Nice. Thanks for taking the effort. Just don't forget that there are easier ways of getting the Armor Set. Cathedral of Flames, Crucible of Eternity, and Arah have pieces that have the same stats. You can be done by 5 - 6 days if you rune 1-2 times of each path for every day.

And while you rack up those tokens, you actually have the chance to get other kinds of loot like Karma and Silvers, and gears from the boss chests.


This is kind of what I did with my toons. Given I have only 3 level 80s, and I'm not plaaning more soon, but basicly on all of them I spent money to buy my "primary" set of armor and weapons, and for the secondary I use combined armors from running dungeons and getting tokens. That and the fact that you can transmute the look of any armor to your liking makes it very efficient and cheap way of aquarining gear. But then again it's slower then just simply buying it on TP, but will save you some extra cash wich is always nice.
And as far as runes go, I can give an advice if you are trying somehting new, go with Major runes instead of superior. They are much much cheaper and the differnece in stats is not that hughe while you "testing" builds and armor setups. Once you are pleased with the resault, it would be nice to upgrade them to Supperior runes ofcz.

#92 surfboar

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Posted 20 November 2012 - 01:11 AM

Just bookmarked this thread. Thanks a ton for your hard work and your willingness to share your work product.

I am running a more glass cannon build with lots of crit, but little survivability. Fortunately, I already invested in the full set of beserker exotic plus the sceptor and staff. Just need to add a focus as the torch I am running now is meh in WvW. Although I like it in PVE.

The 400 artificer/ 400 jeweler helps too :)

I just leveled up armorsmithing as well on my warrior to 400 so its all good. Just have to farm/buy the mats.

#93 Pootinaround

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Posted 26 November 2012 - 06:48 PM

Can you give a breakdown on your rotation? I think I'm doing something wrong with this build.
Thanks :D

#94 jpg1

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:09 AM

View PostPootinaround, on 26 November 2012 - 06:48 PM, said:

Can you give a breakdown on your rotation? I think I'm doing something wrong with this build.
Thanks :D

I use the same set-up with my Guardian but not with the same Gears.

I don't think there is a rotation for this one as the basic thing is you keep using #1, and dish out #2 as soon as it comes off recharge. Never use detonate as the additional damage isn't worth the extended recharge time. (The Heal isn't really worth it too.) There will be instances that you have to detonate because the orb seems to get stuck in flight and the detonate command hangs for more than it is intended.

#3 and #4 has it's different uses but you can just cast it when it's off recharge too. #3 can get you moving if you are the one taking the heat. Or you can set it up to help people in melee to give them heal ticks and damage your target(s). Empower is used to keep your DPS up, and you can just keep casting when it's available. Some people tend to save it when they need to healing but I think it should be used offensively with this build.

I recall that the OP didn't use #5 so much as it has a long wind-up time. I on the other hand find it useful to control a mob charge. One specific example would be the big Svanir Mob in Path 3 of Honor of the Waves. Those guys can be annoying so having #5 can reduce some pressure when need. Also I use it to momentarily lock some bosses from doing their thing for a few seconds. There are certain bosses that are affected by the wall like the Spider Queen in AC. If placed correctly, the boss falls on its back side 2 - 3 times, giving a short breathing time.

Edited by jpg1, 27 November 2012 - 05:11 AM.


#95 Octol

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Posted 29 November 2012 - 06:22 AM

This is a great Build and I've been spending a couple weeks working to get it and I finally have it.
My guardian is a char and one of the racial utilities, "Battle Roar," adds 2 might and Fury for 6 seconds.
Would you use this and if so what would you replace for it?

Awesome guide and thanks for taking the time to share it.

#96 Whisker

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Posted 07 December 2012 - 11:34 AM

Anyone tested this build in FotM?

Edited by Whisker, 07 December 2012 - 11:35 AM.


#97 Crucifixione

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Posted 06 January 2013 - 04:31 PM

Hi, I'm a huge fan of this build. Thumbs up and aces.

I am looking for replacements in the second weapon set though. Greatsword just doesn't cut it for me, as I feel this build doesn't have the survivability to stay in melee range for long, especially in Fractals. I understand the need for the ranged weapon and agree that a scepter is a good 2nd weapon, for it's immobilize skill, and ranged capabilities.

I'm wondering if there's any replacement for the off-hand weapon in the second weapon set. Some people mentioned Shields instead of a focus. I don't believe Torch would be a good substitute, as this build doesn't have condition damage. So my main question is..

Scepter/Shield? Scepter/Focus? Or maybe something wilder which will take more use out of the two handed traits, a Hammer? Any other weapon suggestions will be very welcome as well. I'm trying to suit this playstyle to Heavy PvE/Fractals. WvW is also a concern, but a second priority for me.

Scepter/Shield would have a protection skill with negligible damage, along with Shield of Absorption, which some may argue is situational, but I would counter with the fact that it can be used for many situations which appear more times than many would think. Don't forget you can detonate it for a tiny heal for nearby allies.

Scepter/Focus would have a condition curer for allies and blinds foes. I just hate the fact that it's 4 bounces only, and that it doesn't go as planned half the time since you can't control how it bounces. Sometimes I'd use it to cure conditions and end up blinding enemies instead. Depending on what happens, the end result may change. You also get a 4 second shield which blocks 3 attacks, which I agree, is very useful. The fact that it can shield you for the duration of Empower, or save your behind when you're running, or even when you're dying in fractals and have a few seconds left to your next heal.

Hammer. Haha, Hammer. Ok, first and foremost, I have to admit, I love underdogs, so by default, I have a bias towards the Hammer. Objectively however, I realise it's the underdog for a reason. But think for a minute and it does have some merits.. You and your allies survive longer in melee due to it's protection symbol and HoT ticks from third attack from Skill #1. It also has an immobilize (Skill #3). Not to mention it's immobilize has a significantly higher range than scepter ( 900 vs 1200 ) AND a significantly lower cooldown, thanks to our traits (20 seconds vs 12 seconds). In WvW, let's face it, those sons of thieves are the bane of anyone's existence. Skill #4 and #5 helps with that. Knockback may turn the tide of the battle and break their combo, while a circle that they can't cross will definitely be helpful when they want to apply their devil arts which kills you in 2 seconds. Skill #2...well...I have nothing to say. It's useless as far as I can tell.

So please. You can see my dilemma. All weapon sets are viable options in my opinion. I honestly can't choose. I would test them, but I don't have the money to try the different types of weapons and their variations of stats. Honestly, I'm also very lazy. I apologize.

Help me find out please, Ultra, I beseech you. Test these weapons or belt me with theories, proving the better choice. Hope to hear from you soon!

P.S. I have heard alot of bad rumors and trash talk about Perfect Inscriptions ( Passive Signet effects are improved ). Please verify by telling us exactly how it improves the Signet of Judgement and Signet of Resolve. Some say Signet of Resolve now cures 2 conditions every 10 seconds, while others say it dabbles in the active effect of the signets, and some even say it's a very negligible increase in the effects. If this skill isn't that hot, Right Handed Strength is the only good option to change to, which makes the choice of weapon sets clearer as well. I'll play around with the traits and tell you what I find out as well, in terms of maximizing the use of our weapons.

#98 iLag

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:23 PM

Are greatswords still quite bad as they were @ the time this was posted



#99 Gilles VI

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 12:25 PM

View PostiLag, on 08 January 2013 - 12:23 PM, said:

Are greatswords still quite bad as they were @ the time this was posted

Guardians Greatswords always were, and will be sub-optimal. :)

Edited by Gilles VI, 08 January 2013 - 05:37 PM.


#100 indure

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:13 PM

View PostGilles VI, on 08 January 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

Guardians always were, and will be sub-optimal. :)
Trolling?

#101 Gilles VI

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Posted 08 January 2013 - 05:36 PM

View Postindure, on 08 January 2013 - 05:13 PM, said:

Trolling?

Oh god..
Was thinking about Greatswords, typo sorry.. :P

Edited by Gilles VI, 08 January 2013 - 05:36 PM.


#102 Tan22

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Posted 28 January 2013 - 10:42 AM

This build is sweet.
I have a question regarding the weapons, the berserker's weapons are of fine quality, not rare, right?
Because i cant find them under rare.... so just to make sure...

thanks

#103 KennoArkkan

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:04 AM

So i just came here to say Thanks. This build is awesome. It turns enemy zergs into SHIT in WvW, and for that, i'm grateful.

I used to play a burst Necromancer, something very 1v1ny, and i stumble upon this, and oh lord jesus, feels amazing :D

Took me a while to gather all th equipment tho, but definetely worth it.

#104 Tan22

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 02:01 PM

Any tips about the rotation against players in WvW?

Edited by Tan22, 31 January 2013 - 02:40 PM.


#105 KennoArkkan

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 02:50 PM

Well, i feel it's sort of situational.

Fighting a bunch of dudes? autoattack and skill 2 of staff.

Hunting down a single poor soul? use your scepter, immobilize him and kill him.

Attacking a gate? scepter from a far, or use your wall of reflection on the door (that does work wonders!)

it's not that complicated

#106 Tan22

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 03:36 PM

View PostKennoArkkan, on 01 February 2013 - 02:50 PM, said:

Well, i feel it's sort of situational.

Fighting a bunch of dudes? autoattack and skill 2 of staff.

Hunting down a single poor soul? use your scepter, immobilize him and kill him.

Attacking a gate? scepter from a far, or use your wall of reflection on the door (that does work wonders!)

it's not that complicated

What about far range attackers? like Hunters? those are impossible to kill, they send the pet and its so annoying..  they stay far from you and kill you doing pretty much nothing...

#107 Blorg

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Posted 22 February 2013 - 07:40 PM

Divinity runes are so damn expensive atm, is there decent alternative for this build? I run another shout instead of consectration and was thinking soldier for condition remover, but maybe i miss the offensive stats too much?

#108 iBhoot

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 12:54 PM

ultra...question for you. You initially mentioned 6 superior runes of divinity and later on updated with 3x divinity 3x beryls. Can you please give a full breakdown of 6x vs 3x & 3x please? I am at lv74 and am following your build as a base. I already have my berserker armour set at the ready. Also, can you tell me exactly what weapons you are using - full names please. I am a huge fan of the build and information you wrote. I am leaning towards staff, scepter and a GS as backup (love the GS).

#109 heatrr

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Posted 24 February 2013 - 03:55 PM

View PostiBhoot, on 24 February 2013 - 12:54 PM, said:

ultra...question for you. You initially mentioned 6 superior runes of divinity and later on updated with 3x divinity 3x beryls. Can you please give a full breakdown of 6x vs 3x & 3x please? I am at lv74 and am following your build as a base. I already have my berserker armour set at the ready. Also, can you tell me exactly what weapons you are using - full names please. I am a huge fan of the build and information you wrote. I am leaning towards staff, scepter and a GS as backup (love the GS).

Ultra does not play anymore or has taken a long extended break. So looking for a response from him will be problematic, at best.

#110 iBhoot

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 02:05 PM

Hello Peeps. I have now have the original full build for this on Guardian lv80, full draconic armour with 6x divinity sigils, full accessories, etc. Weapons are staff, scepter and focus all Berserker's Pearl types. Have assassin backpack as well. Now that I have the full original build, the scepter / staff is good for distance fighting but lacks in close combat. I am looking at something like a GS - maybe a Beserker's Pearl GS and add a sigil of some kind to it. I do know - feel very weak when fighting close-up melee style. The build is a solid base though.

Some advice would be great. I managed to save up around 400G while levelling to lv80. Seriously looking at GS Volcanous - it just looks plain awesome. Saw a player with - so cool.

#111 heatrr

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 02:16 PM

View PostiBhoot, on 01 March 2013 - 02:05 PM, said:

Hello Peeps. I have now have the original full build for this on Guardian lv80, full draconic armour with 6x divinity sigils, full accessories, etc. Weapons are staff, scepter and focus all Berserker's Pearl types. Have assassin backpack as well. Now that I have the full original build, the scepter / staff is good for distance fighting but lacks in close combat. I am looking at something like a GS - maybe a Beserker's Pearl GS and add a sigil of some kind to it. I do know - feel very weak when fighting close-up melee style. The build is a solid base though.

A 10/25/30/0/5/ or 10/25/30/5/0 build is just as effective and a bit more survivable in close quarters, as long as you have some sense of situational awareness and know when to back off - in short, learn to play guerrilla warfare hit and run or burst in and get back out to range.  The above mentioned builds will allow you to utilize GS along with all other weapon combos....effectively and with great effect.

Edited by heatrr, 01 March 2013 - 02:18 PM.


#112 iBhoot

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 03:37 PM

Thank u for the advice heat. I am thinking - maybe I should get some aquatic gear to buff up the vitality and other stats. Maybe some Valkyrie or Cleri's gear and buff it with a gem. Open to suggestions. Maybe go all evil and just go Aqua-beserker's again and add some does of more crit/power on top.

#113 A Darker Rapture

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Posted 29 April 2013 - 05:42 PM

I had to pop in and say a big thank you for sharing this build. I'm only lvl 36, so I went into the mists to test a build as close as I could get. Now, with the obviously limited stats available in spvp it's not going to be the same as your actual build...but.....it still melts faces. I do mean, absolutely melts faces.
Never used that reflective wall before, but the fun that you can have with that....

Keep up the good work sir.

#114 Ultramatum

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 03:36 PM

View PostA Darker Rapture, on 29 April 2013 - 05:42 PM, said:

I had to pop in and say a big thank you for sharing this build. I'm only lvl 36, so I went into the mists to test a build as close as I could get. Now, with the obviously limited stats available in spvp it's not going to be the same as your actual build...but.....it still melts faces. I do mean, absolutely melts faces.
Never used that reflective wall before, but the fun that you can have with that....

Keep up the good work sir.

Yeah, this is definitely a good, fun, all-around build.  I'm glad you liked it!

FYI everyone (thank you for keeping this thread alive in my absense), I've updated the Original Post with a new take on this build.  I've found it to be very effective and a lot of fun, and made it much more well-rounded so it's versitile enough for any playstyle.  If you're still interested in this build, I'd recommend checking it out.

When I have time, I'll try to update the full guide to give deeper explanations on the theorycrafting behind it.

#115 Ultramatum

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Posted 06 May 2013 - 03:48 PM

View PostCrucifixione, on 06 January 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

Hi, I'm a huge fan of this build. Thumbs up and aces.

Thank you.  :-)

Quote

I am looking for replacements in the second weapon set though. Greatsword just doesn't cut it for me, as I feel this build doesn't have the survivability to stay in melee range for long, especially in Fractals. I understand the need for the ranged weapon and agree that a scepter is a good 2nd weapon, for it's immobilize skill, and ranged capabilities.

The updated build gives more survivability, along with higher healing power, so you have much more up time.  Staff is also a ranged weapon, don't forget.  It doesn't have as long of a range as the scepter, but you don't have to be "in their face" with it like you do with the mele weapons.

Quote

I'm wondering if there's any replacement for the off-hand weapon in the second weapon set. Some people mentioned Shields instead of a focus. I don't believe Torch would be a good substitute, as this build doesn't have condition damage. So my main question is..

Scepter/Shield? Scepter/Focus? Or maybe something wilder which will take more use out of the two handed traits, a Hammer? Any other weapon suggestions will be very welcome as well. I'm trying to suit this playstyle to Heavy PvE/Fractals. WvW is also a concern, but a second priority for me.

Though I keep every weapon on me, I normally only use Greatsword/Staff anymore.  I find those two weapons synergize together a great deal and offer a ton of support and damage when used together properly.  However, scepter is a great weapon when its projectiles actually land.  I like Shield for its control and buffs, while focus is great for vulnerability/condition removal and block ability.  I enjoy torch but it's probably one of the weakest weapons in the Guardian arsenal.  Honestly, it really depends on your playstyle.  I find I don't really need much beyond greatsword/staff.

Quote

So please. You can see my dilemma. All weapon sets are viable options in my opinion. I honestly can't choose. I would test them, but I don't have the money to try the different types of weapons and their variations of stats. Honestly, I'm also very lazy. I apologize.

Help me find out please, Ultra, I beseech you. Test these weapons or belt me with theories, proving the better choice. Hope to hear from you soon!

Well, if you don't like Greatsword, I wouldn't recommend hammer, since it's slower and doesn't really have a lot of damage abilities (mostly CC).  I think the focus is the best off-hand to pair with scepter, so that's a good combo.  I'd probably go with that.

Quote

P.S. I have heard alot of bad rumors and trash talk about Perfect Inscriptions ( Passive Signet effects are improved ). Please verify by telling us exactly how it improves the Signet of Judgement and Signet of Resolve. Some say Signet of Resolve now cures 2 conditions every 10 seconds, while others say it dabbles in the active effect of the signets, and some even say it's a very negligible increase in the effects. If this skill isn't that hot, Right Handed Strength is the only good option to change to, which makes the choice of weapon sets clearer as well. I'll play around with the traits and tell you what I find out as well, in terms of maximizing the use of our weapons.

Perfect Inscriptions isn't all that good, to be honest.  The buff it gives to signets is relatively small for a Grandmaster trait.  It doesn't make Signet of Resolve remove 2 conditions, that only happens with Signet of Resolve is paired with Purity.  Right Handed Strength is far superior of a Grand Master trait, however, it is only useful if you use one-handed weapons, which I usually do not anymore.

Hope that helps.

#116 McNasty

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:35 PM

the new build is traited for consecrations (virtues III) and has no consecrations

#117 Drops

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:06 PM

Looking at the effective power of the build I'm hesitant to see this being tossed as a damage build, especially for PvE.  PvP optimized builds that balance more surviability with less damage aren't usually used by experienced PvE-ers. Mostly used by those uncomfortable or unfamiliar with fight mechanics.

At best I can only see this as a transitory build for those that do not know what they are looking for in the class.  Those that seek higher optimization will probably move on to different builds, customized to specific requirements.  At worst, I see this as another do-everything build that's not particularly well suited to any type of gameplay, as it makes trade-offs everywhere to maintain some kind of middle ground.  You can see it in the gearing, with the celestial gear and divinity runes (which I might add, are ridiculously expensive at the moment).

I just have to say that I honestly can not recommend it without reservation.

#118 Ultramatum

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 06:00 PM

View PostMcNasty, on 07 May 2013 - 02:35 PM, said:

the new build is traited for consecrations (virtues III) and has no consecrations

I frequently switch out shouts for consecrations as needed, so keeping this trait slotted makes that convenient for me.  You can easily swap this out of another trait if you prefer, but I tend to utilize consecrations a lot (especially in WvW) so I like to have it available.

View PostDrops, on 07 May 2013 - 04:06 PM, said:

Looking at the effective power of the build I'm hesitant to see this being tossed as a damage build, especially for PvE.  PvP optimized builds that balance more surviability with less damage aren't usually used by experienced PvE-ers. Mostly used by those uncomfortable or unfamiliar with fight mechanics.

At best I can only see this as a transitory build for those that do not know what they are looking for in the class.  Those that seek higher optimization will probably move on to different builds, customized to specific requirements.  At worst, I see this as another do-everything build that's not particularly well suited to any type of gameplay, as it makes trade-offs everywhere to maintain some kind of middle ground.  You can see it in the gearing, with the celestial gear and divinity runes (which I might add, are ridiculously expensive at the moment).

I just have to say that I honestly can not recommend it without reservation.

Your reservations aren't entirely unfounded.  I used to think the same as you do.  However, all I can say is that though "effective power" is a useful metric, it doesn't really give you a good idea of how a build will work in practice.  Having half your weapon strikes hit for 101% damage, while also having increased burn damage as well as multiple stacks of might (which affects both weapon and condition damage) makes the damage output pretty high.  A single Whirling Wrath can melt faces, and the Staff's autoattack gets pretty ridiculous.

Though I'm sure other builds specced entirely for damage are superior to this one, I will say that your survivability with this build is on par with most other guardians while having much more damage output.  Not only is your armor in the 2800 range, but your health is very close to the 17K sweet spot.  Top that off with 750-900 healing power, and you're actually quite tanky, while still able to dish out the punishment.  Compare these stats to your typical Altruistic Healing build with knight's armor and you'll see what I mean.  Even your typical "Healway" build isn't as good as this, in my opinion, because you can kill much faster with this build.

I wanted a build that could be used in both PvE and WvW without needing much tinkering, and this is the best I've come across so far.  You are right when you say this build is for people who are uncomfortable or unfamiliar with the class, because it is extremely forgiving of playstyle.  I'm not the best player out there, but this build will let even average players feel like big shots, since it does not require much skill to use effectively.  I, however, feel that's a good thing.  I don't have the reflexes of some of the other crazy-insane WvWer's out there.  :-)

#119 Drops

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:43 AM

Effective power is a measure of your auto-attack damage, with all trait buffs active, including gear, food.  After you add in the might stacks manually, and possible fury up-time, you have a pretty good estimate of your baseline damage output under ideal conditions.  The calculations are not perfect, but they exist as a decent comparison between builds--especially similar builds.

The thing is, spec-ing for Altruisitc Healing alone takes a 30% lower damage penalty to various damage builds, and in some cases, does less than half the damage.  That's a pretty good chunk of change right there, and is quite evident in real gameplay, even with a comfortable margin of error.  That's why I hesitate say your build is damage focused.

The damage output is also not particularly high compared to some of the AH builds I've been tossing around in the calculator.  It's fairly middle of the line, because of the gearing choices for more survivability over damage stats.  There's no magic here, it's all direct trade-offs for choices you make.  You make one choice, you give up another--there's no way to cheat the system.

My experiences have also been different in regards to different game areas of sPvP, WvW, and PvE.  I have different builds, different gear for all of them because as much as I wanted to use a single build for all of them, I find that there are too many conflicting goals to optimize towards.  I do better in each area with optimized builds for them, rather than one build that I try to fit into all of them at once.

I would even gander to say that the existence of so many recommended builds out there, even for a single area of PvE or PvP adds confirmation to that thought.

#120 Ultramatum

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:15 AM

View PostDrops, on 08 May 2013 - 04:43 AM, said:

Effective power is a measure of your auto-attack damage, with all trait buffs active, including gear, food.  After you add in the might stacks manually, and possible fury up-time, you have a pretty good estimate of your baseline damage output under ideal conditions.  The calculations are not perfect, but they exist as a decent comparison between builds--especially similar builds.

The thing is, spec-ing for Altruisitc Healing alone takes a 30% lower damage penalty to various damage builds, and in some cases, does less than half the damage.  That's a pretty good chunk of change right there, and is quite evident in real gameplay, even with a comfortable margin of error.  That's why I hesitate say your build is damage focused.

The damage output is also not particularly high compared to some of the AH builds I've been tossing around in the calculator.  It's fairly middle of the line, because of the gearing choices for more survivability over damage stats.  There's no magic here, it's all direct trade-offs for choices you make.  You make one choice, you give up another--there's no way to cheat the system.

My experiences have also been different in regards to different game areas of sPvP, WvW, and PvE.  I have different builds, different gear for all of them because as much as I wanted to use a single build for all of them, I find that there are too many conflicting goals to optimize towards.  I do better in each area with optimized builds for them, rather than one build that I try to fit into all of them at once.

I would even gander to say that the existence of so many recommended builds out there, even for a single area of PvE or PvP adds confirmation to that thought.

I'm aware of what effective power is.  I also know you can really only get a good sense of it in practical application through playing.  It is a useful metric, but considering that a Guardian's survivability and utility in this build is pretty high, along with close to 4K effective power, it's a very strong build.  Running around with staff auto attacks that hit 5 enemies at a time for upwards of 1K a hit, with constant might and healing, and a greatsword that burns down enemies... well, I can't say I'm too convinced about your argument here.

This build is meant to be versitile, so people don't need multiple sets of armor and weapons, and can play any style and still get good results.  As I said before, it is very forgiving for average to below average players, and it does a ton of damage while not gimping survivability.  I can jump from dungeons to WvW effortlessly and have fun doing both without my teammates feeling that I'm dead weight.  I can also kill stuff, which is always nice.

Trust me when I say the damage output of this build is perfectly fine.  You can play with the traits if you don't like the AH build, but I've found this to be pretty good for most situations.




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