68 replies to this topic

[More]

can somebody please explain to me why do players keep undercutting each other on the trading post?


in other mmo's sales are individual, but in gw2 they are grouped by value and sold in bulk to the millions of other players worldwide, so why undercut another player? what's the point? what are they gaining from this in the long term?

when they undercut another player's price all they are doing is decreasing the value of this item for the next time they want to sell it, shooting themselves in the foot.


Arena Net even made a button saying "match lowest seller" to try and teach people the new method of trading in gw2, which is different to other games people are used to. why don't they take the hint?

I mean seriously, people are undercutting so much that they are now selling items for less than vendor value (after 15% cut from the sale) EVEN THOUGH arenanet have put the vendor value on the item tooltip, AND state the posting fee on the screen when selling the item, how could they make it any easier for players to understand?


the one and only reason I can imagine is that they are trying to sell the item quickly before other player's, and for less popular items like specific types of armour/weapons i can understand, but common items like crafting materials that people are putting up for 45 copper each, why would anybody want to undercut by 1 copper? do they honestly think if they use the "match lowest seller" button that their item won't be sold?

If you are trying to sell an item that nobody wants, it won't be sold, undercutting somebody else doesn't change this fact, it just devalues the item when people do eventually want to buy it, and thus assuring you will make less money from the eventual sale.

so just stop it, seriously, learn how the trading post works before throwing your money away and crippling other players from earning profit for similar items.


please correct me if I'm wrong, because I want to understand the logic (if any) to the players who keep undercutting. what positive thing does it actually do for anybody?

[Di-Dorval]

Prices lower when there is a lot of supply and that people want to sell fast. That's how the market works..
People just like their instant gains.

[Reikou]

simple form of market manipulation.

Say you want to buy an item in bulk.   Even a 1 copper increase in the price of an item will end up being quite substantial  so how do you reduce the price of the item you want to purchase?  You dump and undercut current sellers on the market multiple times, such that the "match lowest seller" option is a closer price to what you're willing to spend, so that you can purchase items at a far cheaper price than the original from everyone who pushes the "match lowest seller" button.

Edited by Reikou, 14 October 2012 - 05:34 PM.

[Shadowrose]

I learned that it doesn't work.

If the supply is low, even if I put my item a little more expensive than the lowest seller, it'll still eventually sell.

however, that cannot be said for most of the dumbasses that still sell blues for 1 copper more than they would get if they just vendor'd the item.

inb4: "they are being generous".

[Red_Falcon]

1 copper more/less selling is actually just marketing manipulation tricks.
It's more efficient to buy 100 chainmail gloves for 45c and resell them for 55c later, you're investing 45s for a 10s gain.
Congratulations, you earned 2 waypoint fees to frostforge. Yay!

[Nox_Aeterna]

Exactly , everyone wants their money first.

If they undercut other 1c they already sell their goods first.

the problems is that , since TP is cross server , people undercut very fast one another.

Im not gonna lie , i undercut by 1c minimum pretty much anything i sell, hate to flood my TP window with trash items.

[Fizzypop]

Nox_Aeterna, on 14 October 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

Exactly , everyone wants their money first.

If they undercut other 1c they already sell their goods first.

the problems is that , since TP is cross server , people undercut very fast one another.

Im not gonna lie , i undercut by 1c minimum pretty much anything i sell, hate to flood my TP window with trash items.

You do realize that when you "match the lowest seller" your items would be sold first anyways? You are cutting into your own profits. The sale may not even be quicker, but be longer since as you said undercutters can move fast.Your item could be undercut and you'll have to wait hours or even a day for your item to sell at the undercut price anyways. Doesn't seem all that smart. If you are patient you can get a much higher price for your items and help keep market price worth selling.

[More]

Red_Falcon, on 14 October 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

1 copper more/less selling is actually just marketing manipulation tricks.
It's more efficient to buy 100 chainmail gloves for 45c and resell them for 55c later, you're investing 45s for a 10s gain.
Congratulations, you earned 2 waypoint fees to frostforge. Yay!

of course if you buy low sell high you can make profit, but the only way you can make profit from buying and reselling items is if you sell them for AT LEAST 15% more than what you bought it for, otherwise you are simply losing money, and devaluing the item, due to trading post fee's (5%) and total sale fee (10%).

If you use the trading post a lot, you will see the price items are varying in costs are way less than 15%, it's literally 1 or 2 copper/silver difference, it makes no sense.

Edited by More, 14 October 2012 - 06:15 PM.

[Nox_Aeterna]

Fizzypop, on 14 October 2012 - 06:08 PM, said:

You do realize that when you "match the lowest seller" your items would be sold first anyways? You are cutting into your own profits. The sale may not even be quicker, but be longer since as you said undercutters can move fast.Your item could be undercut and you'll have to wait hours or even a day for your item to sell at the undercut price anyways. Doesn't seem all that smart. If you are patient you can get a much higher price for your items and help keep market price worth selling.

I dont think that is true , simple because it does not make much sense. While i have no proof , would make sense when you match the price the first person that sold for that price , sells first , i would be the last on the row.

And second , true , i never said im not losing money , but even when im selling 100 items that is 1s, 10000 items is 1g, im losing (if we disconsider the fact that other will also do this and the price will drop) almost nothing.

From a single person point of view , it is a win/win situation.

If others do keep the price up , i can sell my items almost instant for almost no loss at all.

If , like it usually does , the price drops from people undercutting a lot , it still is better to sell faster before people begin to pile over the new "match the lowest seller", sure , on the long run i would lose on my next sell , but by then i could be one buying and this would actually benefit me.

Sure , it is a egotistical and not "honorable" way to see the TP , but you wont make much if you keep being honor bound.

Edited by Nox_Aeterna, 14 October 2012 - 06:35 PM.

[Ritualist]

If you play the game like it's a 100 hour RPG, why would you give the slightest * about the game's economy?

Edited by Protoss, 14 October 2012 - 07:10 PM.

[Phys]

More, on 14 October 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

can somebody please explain to me why do players keep undercutting each other on the trading post?


in other mmo's sales are individual, but in gw2 they are grouped by value and sold in bulk to the millions of other players worldwide, so why undercut another player? what's the point? what are they gaining from this in the long term?

when they undercut another player's price all they are doing is decreasing the value of this item for the next time they want to sell it, shooting themselves in the foot.


Arena Net even made a button saying "match lowest seller" to try and teach people the new method of trading in gw2, which is different to other games people are used to. why don't they take the hint?

I mean seriously, people are undercutting so much that they are now selling items for less than vendor value (after 15% cut from the sale) EVEN THOUGH arenanet have put the vendor value on the item tooltip, AND state the posting fee on the screen when selling the item, how could they make it any easier for players to understand?


the one and only reason I can imagine is that they are trying to sell the item quickly before other player's, and for less popular items like specific types of armour/weapons i can understand, but common items like crafting materials that people are putting up for 45 copper each, why would anybody want to undercut by 1 copper? do they honestly think if they use the "match lowest seller" button that their item won't be sold?

If you are trying to sell an item that nobody wants, it won't be sold, undercutting somebody else doesn't change this fact, it just devalues the item when people do eventually want to buy it, and thus assuring you will make less money from the eventual sale.

so just stop it, seriously, learn how the trading post works before throwing your money away and crippling other players from earning profit for similar items.


please correct me if I'm wrong, because I want to understand the logic (if any) to the players who keep undercutting. what positive thing does it actually do for anybody?

fact is, most people arent fit to run a business, by making things fairly acessible anet has proven this.

If you are selling an item for 1 copper above npc price you are losing money NO item on the Tpost should be less than (Price from npc)/.85

no crafted only item above 400 crafting level should cost less than (total cost of materials)/.85 otherwise you are better off selling the materials, EVEN if you farmed them yourself.

If people are selling dropped versions cheaper, and your items arent selling, why are you making them and putting them on the TP?

Most people making money off the tp, are people who buy items at low prices and sell them higher, aka, the middle man, the shocking thing is that people are buying and selling items to the middle man for prices that npcs beat. too many fools in business, who just farm to make up for the losses they dont realize they are inccuring.

Protoss, on 14 October 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

If you play the game like it's a 100 hour RPG, why would you give the slightest * about the game's economy?

because it makes you grind harder to get the things you really want? (whose prices are set by the people who actually take advantage of the market?) why do you think people struggle making a couple gold a day, and others are buying leet items at 400 gold.

[Ardeni]

Sometimes the supply outweighs demand by a lot (depends on the time of day and such things), so you might end up losing money by putting the item on a higher price even if it's a couple of coppers. When I faced a situation with a couple of crafting items, where I set them to be sold on a bit higher price (about 3-5% more expensive), I found out that they just wouldn't sell.

It took me a couple of days to get back to the prices and I saw that the price was the same, but there were thousands and thousands of items set on lower or exactly the same price as my items. I realised that even though there had only been like 200 items that were cheaper than mine when I put them for sale, the supply outweighed the demand and suddenly the 200 turned into 2000 items. At that point I had to set them for sale with a lower price again, which made me lose money due to the annoying (but necessary) seller fee.

After I had this happen to me a few times, I started selling certain items for the lowest seller's price or, I must admit, I might even undercut by 1 copper. I only do this with the items that I've had problems with (soft wood logs and iron ores for example). In an ideal situation you could get everybody to stop this behavior, but since it is impossible, I have little interest in storing items on the TP for months only to realise that the prices have gone down by 50%.

[Ritualist]

Phys, on 14 October 2012 - 07:16 PM, said:

because it makes you grind harder to get the things you really want? (whose prices are set by the people who actually take advantage of the market?) why do you think people struggle making a couple gold a day, and others are buying leet items at 400 gold.

Do you think that people that will not treat this game as a 10k hour heavy grindfest CARE about those items?

[Panzanella]

More, on 14 October 2012 - 05:18 PM, said:

I mean seriously, people are undercutting so much that they are now selling items for less than vendor value (after 15% cut from the sale) EVEN THOUGH arenanet have put the vendor value on the item tooltip, AND state the posting fee on the screen when selling the item, how could they make it any easier for players to understand?

I've never been good at manipulating the market but if there's room for profit, why not take advantage?  (and by profit I mean purchase from market and sell to vendor)  This is something I HAVE done in previous games so I guess it's time to browse.

[Expherious]

I really dont see how it matters. if you are gaming hard and don't feel the need to learn the TP and just want to dump all of your items why not? its quick and effective for those players that dont really care about aesthetics..

[Deyadissa]

Protoss, on 14 October 2012 - 07:09 PM, said:

If you play the game like it's a 100 hour RPG, why would you give the slightest * about the game's economy?

Because I don't play the game like it's a 100 hour RPG?

[Soulless]

i dont sell on TP..i only buy..haha. i sell everything else thru mail and to vendors. i havent been scammed yet and it wont break me if i do get scammed.

[Theworldasd]

Yea, I don't get why people sell things for 1c over vendor price when you could just vendor it and get more back due to the lack of a deposit and tax.

[Ingway]

Because people are stupid.

[NeoSaigon]

Undercutting serves a bunch of purposes.

First off, it ensures your item is first in line to be sold.  I think most people do "suspect" that the last item listed is sold first, however there's no real way to prove this.  Perhaps your position in line is random, or perhaps it's listed alphabetically by username?  This is very important because the truth is, people undercut, and the last thing you want is your item rotting in the TP unsold.  

Second, for the price of 1c per item, you get a visual cue of your position in line, so you know when you should re-list an item.  You'll make more money if you can sell two items in an hour for 10% profit (-5% relisting fee) vs one item in an hour for 15% profit. Will this hurt you in the long run?  Perhaps, but you don't care about long-term effects; you're a day trader!

The third reason is a lot trickier to pull off.  People buy things because they either they need it, they want it, or simply because it's a steal of a deal.  Why do you think companies hold 50% off sales?  One reason, besides getting people in the store, is to convince someone to buy something they normally would not buy.  

I was playing with Dusk yesterday, which I normally don't do since I think Dusk is a ticking time bomb. (ANET publicly mentioned they were monitoring prices and would intervene if necessary).  I made an exception though when I noticed there is actually a HUGE surplus in Dusk supplies.  Watch the buy orders, they actually get filled very often.  I personally bought 3 Dusks in a one day period for 225g - 250g each.  

Now I know that there is currently a surplus in Dusk and that it is a luxury item that sells slowly.  If I list one for 395g, it will probably get undercut to 390g before it's sold, and then that item would get undercut to 385g =/  What I did was list the item for 380g right away.  So now, when I buyer visits the dusk page, he'll see one listing for 380g and 6 listings for 400g.  He'll be much more likely to buy my item, just because it's cheap.  I did this until the last Dusk I sold was 325g.  Made about 150g in a 24hr period doing this.  Dusk prices are now at 310g.  I'd like to think I played a part in this =).

[RabidusIncendia]

Basically, if the difference between buy order and sell order is greater than 5% + 1 copper, always undercut by at least one copper in a normal sell.  Common sense really.  Otherwise, join the sell orders.

Edited by RabidusIncendia, 15 October 2012 - 03:23 AM.

[LavaSquid]

When we are in WvW and just have no time to find a NPC and vendor, right-click "sell on TP" is convenient to clear inventory.

[Dulu]

Supply and demand dictates the price.

Edited by Chalky, 15 October 2012 - 08:15 AM.

[Green]

Those of you who simply say its supply/demand obviously are not playing this market. Its not matter of just that. When do you get under cut its often by not just a copper or two, but several, 10, 20 or more. It gets compounded because everyone under cuts everyone else, the snowball effect. Its to the point that if you are crafting items just to sell on the TP often times they become unprofitable in a very short time based on what you paid for the ingredients.

The situation is caused by many reasons, but mostly because people are ill informed, or cant wait an extra 5 to 15 minutes for their order to sell, or just plain don't care that they are loosing money by selling so low.

I for one am done with wasting time, getting pissed off at the market by watching my potential profits evaporate in a mater of hours, and have given up or crafting for the TP all together.

[Krill]

Green, on 15 October 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

Those of you who simply say its supply/demand obviously are not playing this market. Its not matter of just that. When do you get under cut its often by not just a copper or two, but several, 10, 20 or more. It gets compounded because everyone under cuts everyone else, the snowball effect. Its to the point that if you are crafting items just to sell on the TP often times they become unprofitable in a very short time based on what you paid for the ingredients.

Aside from peach tarts and raspberry peach / omnomberry bars, maybe a few select other items too, there is virtually no demand for crafted goods. It's just dumb to craft anything of value expecting to flip it because a long line of undercutting is the natural behavior in a free market when sufficient demand doesn't exist. You risk not only eating a loss outright, but adding to the loss having to relist at a lower price.

For common and fine crafting materials, where there is plenty of demand, undercutting is one half of the equation that regulates the price. It goes both ways when order demand pushes the price up. You have the power to choose your own level of risk...sell to highest order for no risk, undercut lowest seller slightly for small risk, match lowest seller for small risk, or sell at what looks to be the peak price based on quantities for sale with more risk and more reward.

Edited by Krill, 15 October 2012 - 06:16 AM.

[Ritualist]

Deyadissa, on 14 October 2012 - 08:51 PM, said:

Because I don't play the game like it's a 100 hour RPG?

There was a reason why that post started with an "if".

[spritepac]

The reason undercutting works is because this isn't a REAL economy. Suppliers will keep undercutting because your LITERALLY getting the crafting materials for free. There is no effort put into it besides killing some monsters. For example in real life a supplier of a product needs to cover his overhead which is his employees, capital he put into making the good, investments, materials etc etc. In gw2 I get a drop off a monster and I see people selling it for 15s I think why not sell it for 14.5s mine will DEFINITELY sell first and I don't wait until mine is bought from the list of "lowest sellers" and probably is less likely to get undercut again. Same with crafting materials and that is why they have dropped so low. Crafted items are lower than the cost of mats too at times so no use selling on TP just sell it to vendor. Thats the reason people sell it 1c over vendor price just so they can put it on TP if they could sell it lower they would. Thats why a TP/AH idea was bad in the first place and I was one of those who was against the idea. A TP/AH idea caters to the buyer which hurts the economy. Think of runescape, items cost a certain amount because players dictate the price of crafting materials based on supply and then the final product sells at a cost of materials+"labor." You can undercut in runescape but because it is a face to face trading/economy you cannot compare the price of items instantly and undercut every server's prices with the click of a button. Hence you can sell mats at a somewhat stable price and then sell items based of those mats consistently without prices dropping. Everyone who says supply/demand determines prices congrats on taking an econ class and just spewing it on the forums. Actually applying that system to a video game economy anyone can see it does not work.

Edited by spritepac, 15 October 2012 - 07:58 AM.

[Lady Rhonwyn]

Soulless, on 15 October 2012 - 02:26 AM, said:

i dont sell on TP..i only buy..haha. i sell everything else thru mail and to vendors. i havent been scammed yet and it wont break me if i do get scammed.

What has scamming to do with the TP?  The only person you can scam is you.  (which is what all those sellers do that sell their stuff for merchant+1 coppers...)

I sell stuff for a price I find decent... Sometimes that's over the price listed, sometimes it's under the price listed...

[More]

Sorry I should have mentioned this at the start to illustrate my point better, but anyway, PRICE FIXING (http://en.wikipedia....ki/Price_fixing)

In most modern societies Price Fixing is illegal, because it doesn't promote competitive pricing and is unfair to the consumer.

Since in guild wars 2 we are ALL sellers, if we used price fixing (by clicking the button Arena Net gave us!) we can ensure that we all make a high profit. why woudln't people want to do this?

I have read all comments here and the only valid argument people have made is "an item sells quicker".  But this is only true if the demand for that item is high, and if you are matching somebody elses price and the demand is high, YOU WILL SELL THE ITEM.

What's the rush? why can't you wait an hour or 2 before the sale goes through to ensure you make more profit from this sale and also the next time you want to sell this item?


And I repeat beacuse from some comments I see there are still some people who don't realise this;
ALL SALES ON THE TP ARE SUBJECT TO 15% CUT. (5% posting fee, and 10% total sale fee).
If you are making profit less than vendor value, you are literally throwing money away.

If your maths is bad, please use this site http://tpcalc.com/  to work out how much money you will earn from a sale.  If this amount is less than vendor value, just sell it to a vendor and stop driving the value of items down for everybody else.

[Fatalis]

More, on 15 October 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

Sorry I should have mentioned this at the start to illustrate my point better, but anyway, PRICE FIXING (http://en.wikipedia....ki/Price_fixing)

In most modern societies Price Fixing is illegal, because it doesn't promote competitive pricing and is unfair to the consumer.

Since in guild wars 2 we are ALL sellers, if we used price fixing (by clicking the button Arena Net gave us!) we can ensure that we all make a high profit. why woudln't people want to do this?

I have read all comments here and the only valid argument people have made is "an item sells quicker".  But this is only true if the demand for that item is high, and if you are matching somebody elses price and the demand is high, YOU WILL SELL THE ITEM.

What's the rush? why can't you wait an hour or 2 before the sale goes through to ensure you make more profit from this sale and also the next time you want to sell this item?


And I repeat beacuse from some comments I see there are still some people who don't realise this;
ALL SALES ON THE TP ARE SUBJECT TO 15% CUT. (5% posting fee, and 10% total sale fee).
If you are making profit less than vendor value, you are literally throwing money away.

If your maths is bad, please use this site http://tpcalc.com/  to work out how much money you will earn from a sale.  If this amount is less than vendor value, just sell it to a vendor and stop driving the value of items down for everybody else.

It's the idea of security.

Depending on the item, will you sell if you match lowest seller? Yes, most likely.

However if you're selling something particularly expensive, and/or with low demand not selling the item and potentially having to relist it can be quite a hit.

Thus I'd rather be first and make 1 less copper, than possibly having to go through a bunch of other sells that were listed first, then get buried in sell orders, and never sell my item.