76 replies to this topic

[Dokem]

redcomyn, on 18 October 2012 - 03:29 PM, said:

Reading through this thread, I have been trying to figure out what "MF" means through context, but I am coming up blank. Some kind of armor I think. What is 'MF"?

Magic Find. It's a stat.

[redcomyn]

Ah, yes. Thanks! I can understand why it is useless. I know I will never waste my time with it.

[ben911993]

I can understand why MF gets a lot of hate, and I agree. When a party member in a dungeon is being rewarded MORE loot for doing LESS work, that isn't fair to the rest of the group, who are carrying that member on their backs so that he or she can get more loot than they did. I can't stand MF users, it's an intentional loss of capacity for personal gain, and it's a detriment to the party.

On the other hand, noobs can be educated and they can get better. Someone in full non-MF gear will easily be more capable than someone of the same skill level with MF gear. And yet the one that does less work gets more loot.

But OT: I find that the combat in this game is all about flexibility and adaptability, and also being able to run a hybrid. Running a full 100% glass cannon build with no defense, solely focused on damage, renders you almost useless as you'll be dead far too often to actually contribute to the group. But sacrificing a portion of your damage to at least have some defense goes a long way. I learned from around level 50 on that mobility is key to survival, and dodging is essential if you don't want to just be a stain on the floor in dungeons, so I use mobility as my main form of defense, with a bit of toughness to back it up. I die far less often then I used to when I ran a full signet build, and yet I can still dish out some nasty damage, while even supporting my group. Versatility, flexibility, adaptability. That's what I think GW2's combat comes down to.

[ilr]

LithePanther, on 18 October 2012 - 06:29 AM, said:

I think some people in this thread need to get off their high horses.

It's starting to sound like gearscore requirement in WoW, except here it's no MF gear.

Really?

REALLY?

...no probably not really, I refuse to take the bait on this one

[tornado64]

No one would run full MF-Gear, would they? I using MF food + MF runes + Sigil of Luck, while having a full exotic set with Berserker trinkets + some Power/Toughness/Vit armor and the damage loss is negligible while still having 100 % MF and frequently get rare drops in dungeons. I don't like the design choice who comes with the whole MF stuff (in my opinion give a general drop chance equal to a 100-150 % MF and patch out this MF shit), but it is as it is and I'm going to profit from it.
I have to say I only do that on my warrior, because I already have higher stats than other classes.

Edited by tornado64, 19 October 2012 - 09:09 AM.

[Nox_Aeterna]

madmaxII, on 18 October 2012 - 08:22 AM, said:

If you pick MF you willingly sacrifice effectiveness. Tons of effectiveness. Someone who has a full masterwork (green) equipment should have more stats in total than someone who runs full MF exotics. Give the the masterwork dude an exotic weapon and he is miles ahead. I am too lazy to do the maths right now but here are the stat values for the different rarities if someone wants to calculate it. Look at the table and think about the relative strength of exotic MF gear.
That said, it is almost impossible to have gear that is worse than MF. Even the poorest players can afford a better one.

As far as noobs are concerned they don't play bad on purpose. They are inexperienced and they need some time to learn. That's okay. Just give them some guidance and it get's better. People using MF gear usually know exactly that the team would be more efficient if they had other items.

And why do you forgive some who contribute less but not others? Like i already said makes no dif if it is gear or skill, if the player is doing less then the player is doing less.

I actually prefer MF people that know the dungeon personally since there is less explanations to be done. (Less in case of guildies or friends)

Still people could create a rule in the party of no MF gear , myself would create no newcomer.

[Di-Dorval]

I did dungeons with blue lv 70-78 gear on my lv 80 dude before I got new gear and I was doing very great. Stats aren't that important in PvE. I don't mind MF gear at all like people didn't mind when I had shit gear.

[CepaCepa]

ilr, on 18 October 2012 - 03:10 AM, said:

WRONG.  They will always "prefer" the ranged character with the highest Tough/Vit who pulled them first.  Or didn't you read the part when I said every mob was chasing me?  ...every time?  That's not an exaggeration.  That's not within the bounds of "unlucky" RNG scope.  That's Aggro working the way it was designed to work and me and my guildmates "utilize" the hell out of it on our staff guardians for most Dungeons.

WRONG. Do some testing, or reading, if you've got supporting data feel free to share them for the benefit of the community. Don't just scramble off things that other people have clearly stated to you as "tested" and regard these things that people have tried to figure out as "basic knowledge", that's an insult to anyone who have put the effort into trying to figure things out. There are threads and pages particularly on this issue where people have spent a lot of time testing, people who know their stats/computer science/research procedures.

Which is the main factor then, Toughness? Vitality? Ranged? Pulling First? Those are four factors that you combined into one assessment --- Yeah, they all have a bearing on aggro to different degrees, and especially depending on the mob. Now how do you come to the conclusion that other people have less toughness than you -- which is just ONE of these factor -- from a mesh of factors that you have not investigated into? You've got a black box system in which none of the factors have been clearly identified let alone correlated, and you're trying to pin point to one particular feature simply using the output result? By your logic then, glass cannons should be very viable --- Because no mob, ever, will target them. Even if they're a thief, or warrior, standing in melee and bursting away. All they need to do is dodge the aoe circles on the ground and they'll be dps machines. Is that what you're suggesting by saying "toughness = aggro"?

The game would be boring as hell if everything is that simple.

Edited by CepaCepa, 19 October 2012 - 08:19 PM.

[ilr]

Glass cannons are very viable, or haven't you been reading the threads about them?  ...You criticize me for not reading but it's obvious that you're the one in the minority here.  The only issue with said glass cannons is when the AI is on a cycle and blips out, then switches targets just long enough to 1-shot a complacent glass cannon.  ...or in the case of mobs like Subject Alpha who have huge misleading AoE's where avoiding them comes down to pure luck a fraction of the time.  (and even a fraction is too slim a margin for a 2-minute Waypoint slog).

You also cite "Tests" just like the first poster I responded to but you provide no links to them or even a shred of anecdotal evidence like I have.  Atleast with what I provided, people can make up their own minds on whether observations met theory.  In your case, you're just attacking a little too aggressively, with no counter substance.



PS:  The other dead giveaway in all of this, is that this is Anet we're talking about.  They've never made their aggro system  complex, even when individual mobs are scripted to pick targets  (SS-Surveyors & Rragarr for example).  And it was obvious with all the issues we saw in Beta that they hadn't made a lot of great strides when it came to A.I.

Edited by ilr, 19 October 2012 - 10:44 PM.

[Aetou]

CepaCepa, on 19 October 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

Which is the main factor then, Toughness? Vitality? Ranged? Pulling First? Those are four factors that you combined into one assessment --- Yeah, they all have a bearing on aggro to different degrees, and especially depending on the mob. Now how do you come to the conclusion that other people have less toughness than you -- which is just ONE of these factor -- from a mesh of factors that you have not investigated into? You've got a black box system in which none of the factors have been clearly identified let alone correlated, and you're trying to pin point to one particular feature simply using the output result? By your logic then, glass cannons should be very viable --- Because no mob, ever, will target them. Even if they're a thief, or warrior, standing in melee and bursting away. All they need to do is dodge the aoe circles on the ground and they'll be dps machines. Is that what you're suggesting by saying "toughness = aggro"?

The game would be boring as hell if everything is that simple.

While this covers many of the issues with ilr's very flawed logic and understanding of the aggro system you missed the most important reason at all.  Damage dealt plays a huge role in aggro (easy to test by throwing a few attacks at a mob that is chasing somebody else who in turn isn't fighting it and watching the mob swap to you shortly afterwards) and a reasonably rDPS build that has high uptime and isn't throwing too many dodges is going to be pretty high up the damage charts compared to, say, a Guardian specced for survival.  If you're getting a lot of boss attention its probably because you are hurting it and most of the time stopping attacking and focusing just on surviving for a while will get it to shift to somebody who is still hitting it.

So, glass cannons who can't dodge are in big trouble as they will get more attention from a boss and get hurt more each time (at least until they've spent half the fight Down and not doing damage at all.)  Some classes who have good survival tricks (and especially stealth) can really get away with it but for most people its a dangerous game, at least until you know the fights and can run them without getting downed in more balanced gear.

[runemima]

i'm trying to understand the elitism conversation here...

i thought glass cannons were long range fighters who throw damage but don't really know much about playing. they just kind of stand there throwing fireballs (always fire) and then run around screaming that their class is too weak when a monster has aoe also. but clearly in this conversation glass cannons are people who wear unapproved armor, and are therefore deemed too weak to survive.

so just to clarify: a "build" is your weapon+traits... +armor set?  and the game is shaking out to have elite "approved" builds where if you are not a scepter/dagger/fire/knighted ele... you suck?

[Red_Falcon]

runemima, on 21 October 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

i'm trying to understand the elitism conversation here...

i thought glass cannons were long range fighters who throw damage but don't really know much about playing. they just kind of stand there throwing fireballs (always fire) and then run around screaming that their class is too weak when a monster has aoe also. but clearly in this conversation glass cannons are people who wear unapproved armor, and are therefore deemed too weak to survive.

so just to clarify: a "build" is your weapon+traits... +armor set?  and the game is shaking out to have elite "approved" builds where if you are not a scepter/dagger/fire/knighted ele... you suck?

No, but as I stated in page 1 there are ways to get a ton of damage reduction by sacrificing a little portion of damage.
Stacking at least 500 toughness (200 from gear and 300 from traits or vice versa) gives around 30% damage reduction if it's the first toughness you ever stack (there are diminishing returns for higher amounts).

I kind of expect a person to take 30% damage reduction over 16% crit damage, because a char with 30%DR and 250% crit damage is better than one with 266% crit damage which dies in one hit.
I've had people who died at every pull in some dungeons, it gets frustrating to have a party member need a rez every time he gets hit.
Dodges and skill can't avoid all damage, if you can sacrifice a minimal portion of your damage for a large chunk of survivability then please do it.

[jazzbrownie]

runemima, on 21 October 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

i'm trying to understand the elitism conversation here...

i thought glass cannons were long range fighters who throw damage but don't really know much about playing. they just kind of stand there throwing fireballs (always fire) and then run around screaming that their class is too weak when a monster has aoe also. but clearly in this conversation glass cannons are people who wear unapproved armor, and are therefore deemed too weak to survive.

so just to clarify: a "build" is your weapon+traits... +armor set?  and the game is shaking out to have elite "approved" builds where if you are not a scepter/dagger/fire/knighted ele... you suck?

http://www.urbandict...rm=glass cannon

[Snapalope]

In general I don't like glass cannons.  However I've seen really good players that can pull it off amazingly, and I have seen a full glass cannon team run Arah.  That being said, if you can't pull it off don't run glass cannon.

However I run usually full tank on any character, but having a glass cannnon set is very useful.  There are times where they are your only option, such as brute forcing Dwayna in Arah.

Edited by Snapalope, 21 October 2012 - 03:46 AM.

[Murmer]

Time to weigh in on this...

I recently hit 80, and I have to say that so far for the 6-7 levels I've been in Orr, I've seen 0 D/D elementalists running around. Only staff. Few elementalists in general to by honest.

As a D/D elementalist, going cannon is the only way to go. I wouldn't say that *glass* is the appropriate terminology for what one should aim for. More like a wooden cannon. I've mixed Valkyrie and Berserker stuff so that I have a 16.8k hp pool, and still have enough crit stuff and more to proc Sigil of Strength whenever I need it pretty much. (I can stack 20 stacks of might in the space of 6-7 seconds easily). It's really great, to be honest with you. True I haven't tried this build in a dungeon yet. However, while leveling up, the few dungeons I ran in my 40s-60s, I had few problems in dungeons. I trait renewed vigor and the vigor on cantrips use from the water trait line, so I more or less have it proced 24/7 with my crit ratio of  31%, and that's without fury.

My build is basically a boon monster focused on might stacking. Even when I ran full beserker, I never had any bone crushing problems in Orr. I only went down when I did really stupid things. (Trying to run through 12 risen mobs? Like that's happening)

So in reality, there might be a lot of glass cannons, but the few elementalists I've seen in Orr don't use D/D, and by far, D/D is the best weapon selection that the elementalists has for putting out the highest damage numbers while staying mobile and hitting moving targets. Most of them... make that all of the elementalists I've seen in Orr, used a staff. Which I can understand, but personally I just don't use those anymore myself. I've learned to play my wooden cannon effectively. I don't die in one hit because I'm always moving, when I'm not moving, I'm in water, healing myself for gratuitous amounts, then switching back to fire, laydown some hurt, earth to laydown some more hurt and get protection from elemental attunment, then air to get some aura action going and a pushback, then ride the lightening back into the action and switch to either fire or water. Probably water, because the frost breath can get some ridiculous numbers when critting constantly.

With that strategy in mind, dodging all the while, veteran mobs I can easily take by myself. I fear nothing. It's a really fun way to play once you get the hang of it. The ebb and flow of the motion of destruction that is the elementalists wooden cannon.

[AKGeo]

Princess Fatora, on 18 October 2012 - 06:22 AM, said:

MF people are the only people that, I think, should be banned from group simply because they expect to get carried.

A low level newcomer that isn't full exotic and that is doing their best and making an effort >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 80 person in MF gear that expects to be carried and thinks it's okay to give les than their group, yet get more rewards.

M/F people in pugs are douchebags 100% of the time. Just a matter of decency, really. Thankfully most of them tend to rack up repair bills nicely, since people tend to stop ressing them the tirst time they brag about their Kewl Lewt they get through MF. Teaches the lesson nicely.

Wow...having MF gear isn't taking away much. A player with a build and the skills to mitigate getting hit can run a power/precision/MF set and contribute just as much as anyone else...and get rewarded for their skill (if it's up to the task) with increased loot. If they die often, they pay more for repairs, and the lose out on loot because they were downed.

What they do has very little to do with you. A newbie player sitting in front of a boss trying to tank their one-shots over and over again is going to be more of a liability than someone who knows how to play but has MF gear on hoping for that one rare or exotic.

I run glass cannon on my thief. I run some MF gear. I went into CM explorable for the first time last night. I got into a situation where I was being targeted by a mob that another player pulled to the group. I went full-survival mode switching to P/P, dropping smoke screen, shadow refuge and spamming black powder and hitting my sig of shadows on recharge while my group AOE'd them down. That's my normal build, btw...but I typically use the utility skills in different ways. Adaptability is the name of the game, here. If I'm not being targeted I use my utility skills to grant me stealth for backstab, lifesteal for dagger storm, and increased mobility for kiting bosses, and run D/D against regular mobs.

And my loot drops weren't very good, anyway...so there's no real reason to be jealous of MF players and their added 5% chance of a higher rarity item.

Edited by AKGeo, 21 October 2012 - 10:43 PM.

[CepaCepa]

ilr, on 19 October 2012 - 10:35 PM, said:

Glass cannons are very viable, or haven't you been reading the threads about them?  ...You criticize me for not reading but it's obvious that you're the one in the minority here.  The only issue with said glass cannons is when the AI is on a cycle and blips out, then switches targets just long enough to 1-shot a complacent glass cannon.  ...or in the case of mobs like Subject Alpha who have huge misleading AoE's where avoiding them comes down to pure luck a fraction of the time.  (and even a fraction is too slim a margin for a 2-minute Waypoint slog).

You also cite "Tests" just like the first poster I responded to but you provide no links to them or even a shred of anecdotal evidence like I have.  Atleast with what I provided, people can make up their own minds on whether observations met theory.  In your case, you're just attacking a little too aggressively, with no counter substance.



PS:  The other dead giveaway in all of this, is that this is Anet we're talking about.  They've never made their aggro system  complex, even when individual mobs are scripted to pick targets  (SS-Surveyors & Rragarr for example).  And it was obvious with all the issues we saw in Beta that they hadn't made a lot of great strides when it came to A.I.

And you missed the point. I'm not arguing at all about the viability of glass cannons, but I guess I could've made that more clear. I was referring to your take on aggro --- Yeah, ANet said they don't want you to have to manage aggro. They do that, a lot of times, by making it such that you can't "manage" it easily simply due to the various and numerous factors involved. Which means, you can't just stack up toughness and vitality and know that the mobs are not going to attack anyone else but you.

There are many, many factors deciding which player of mob is going to hit, and these factors are different for different mobs. The whole argument came from the fact that you seem to suggest that "this is exactly how aggro works and anyone who doesn't think so is noob", which is not only elitism, untested, but ultimately, wrong.

I KNOW glass cannons can work very well if the player knows how to deal with situations, I've got 2 of them with full exotic berserkers and no points at all in either vitality or toughness, and they don't die in dungeons unless it's a wipe. But they do get aggro, a lot. Not only due to the massive damage they dish out, which of course is important in aggro calculations, but many, many other factors. Distance, for example. Direct damage versus damage over time. Burst in a short time frame. Mob deciding to switch for no apparent reason at all. My point is, toughness is not the only factor to aggro like you've been suggesting, and if you get chased by a mob it could be many factors, you simply cannot assume that "I'm getting chased by mobs so I have the most armor in the group".

[AKGeo]

runemima, on 21 October 2012 - 02:38 AM, said:

  and the game is shaking out to have elite "approved" builds where if you are not a scepter/dagger/fire/knighted ele... you suck?

I'm getting this feeling as well. Eventually a dungeon Meta team build for fastest, most efficient clearing will be discovered, and anyone not sticking to, or at least very near to those builds will be excluded. Pinging weapons, armor and utility skills will be the test. Traits won't be easily detectable though...which only further strengthens the "need" for a certain armor set.

[Di-Dorval]

AKGeo, on 24 October 2012 - 01:32 AM, said:

I'm getting this feeling as well. Eventually a dungeon Meta team build for fastest, most efficient clearing will be discovered, and anyone not sticking to, or at least very near to those builds will be excluded. Pinging weapons, armor and utility skills will be the test. Traits won't be easily detectable though...which only further strengthens the "need" for a certain armor set.

This will only happen if we ever get enough people to do a dungeon at all time. Which is far from the case right now. I'm just happy if the person is the right level and so are the others. No one ever asked me for my armor type or my build and I don't see people willing to wait 5-20 more minutes to get the guy with the right stats.

[Sheffyeld]

Di-Dorval, on 24 October 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

This will only happen if we ever get enough people to do a dungeon at all time. Which is far from the case right now. I'm just happy if the person is the right level and so are the others. No one ever asked me for my armor type or my build and I don't see people willing to wait 5-20 more minutes to get the guy with the right stats.

Some feeling here. I have a S/S warrior and my wife has a GS ranger. Last Dungeon we were looking for party, ANYBODY ask why we were using those kind of weapons. On the dungeon some guys (They were 2 GS Warrior) said "WTH, S/S Warrior and a GS ranger. Useless". When we were at the boss those guys died everytime, but my wife and me dead/downed 0 times. And the end my wife said: "You should stop to use full berserk armor".

The use Red_falcon said one thing 100% true:  

Quote

No, but as I stated in page 1 there are ways to get a ton of damage reduction by sacrificing a little portion of damage.
Stacking at least 500 toughness (200 from gear and 300 from traits or vice versa) gives around 30% damage reduction if it's the first toughness you ever stack (there are diminishing returns for higher amounts).

I think if you want do be a really glass cannon just do a Thief D/D or GS Warrior full berserk and stay in front of the boss with the hit-die, hit-hit-hit-die or something like that, but never forget to say: "Ress plz" or "Guardian, You need to support me"

[Di-Dorval]

Sheffyeld, on 24 October 2012 - 05:42 AM, said:

Some feeling here. I have a S/S warrior and my wife has a GS ranger. Last Dungeon we were looking for party, ANYBODY ask why we were using those kind of weapons. On the dungeon some guys (They were 2 GS Warrior) said "WTH, S/S Warrior and a GS ranger. Useless". When we were at the boss those guys died everytime, but my wife and me dead/downed 0 times. And the end my wife said: "You should stop to use full berserk armor".

But it still dosn't change the fact that they accepted you in their group. What I meant is that people don't really have the choice for specific player atm.
And for the record I run a full knight armor except for chest and trinkets who are berserk with a full thougness trait line.
But you have to admit that a condition based warrior (S/S) is very uncommon!

[Sheffyeld]

Di-Dorval, on 24 October 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

But it still dosn't change the fact that they accepted you in their group. What I meant is that people don't really have the choice for specific player atm.
And for the record I run a full knight armor except for chest and trinkets who are berserk with a full thougness trait line.
But you have to admit that a condition based warrior (S/S) is very uncommon!

Yes, Sometimes I feel "special" when i'm doing dungeon because you rarely see a S/S warrior. It's funny, but I use LB on the dungeon with my banner build .

Anyway, I still thinking like the friend up. Tough salves lives!

@Edit

Vit too :3

Edited by Sheffyeld, 25 October 2012 - 01:34 AM.

[Zevyr]

What I actually do is run dungeons (even with good guild groups) in full Pow/vit/Tough and GS+Rifle/LB depending slightly on the encounter/instance. That's on Warrior tho, when I'm on Ele its full out berzerker or rampager. (Both @ 80 with full exotics)

Might seem overkill on survivebility to some but at the end of the day there's rarely much dodging needed, it allows me to be more static and put out more consistent damage as opposed to dodging and legging it several seconds each fight.

Having gotten Twilight on my warrior I find it hard to break lose from using it all the time but I am in the works of getting a Pow/vit/con build and run dual swords for mad bleeds.

[Lastchime]

Di-Dorval, on 24 October 2012 - 02:31 AM, said:

This will only happen if we ever get enough people to do a dungeon at all time. Which is far from the case right now. I'm just happy if the person is the right level and so are the others. No one ever asked me for my armor type or my build and I don't see people willing to wait 5-20 more minutes to get the guy with the right stats.

  Saw the most tragic thing I've seen to date yesterday in LA, "LF2M war/ele MK, 80s only" , for real some folks just like drawing little tiny boxes around even their easiest dungeon ever runs.

[NachyoChez]

Red_Falcon, on 17 October 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

No need to justify yourself, you are right.

I have 2 full exotic sets on my Warrior, one being zerk the other being knight.
I did all sorts of tests and ultimately the damage difference between zerk armor and knight's armor - when everything else is zerk - is negligible.
The 20% damage reduction you get from Knight's armor is definitely not.

If people want to go glass let them, more kills for us

I would absolutely LOVE to see the math on this.  Not because I don't believe you, just because it'd be nice to know how much of a sacrifice I'm making at certain stages when I switch between my DPS and Support builds.

[Red_Falcon]

NachyoChez, on 30 October 2012 - 03:07 AM, said:

I would absolutely LOVE to see the math on this.  Not because I don't believe you, just because it'd be nice to know how much of a sacrifice I'm making at certain stages when I switch between my DPS and Support builds.

I actually did testing with different amounts of armor, I think my calcs are still somewhere around the forums.

[Howl]

Minion, on 18 October 2012 - 12:06 PM, said:

I play the most glass cannon there is possible; absolutely no +health or +toughness modifiers. Why do I rarely die? Stealth, dodging, utilities that add extra evades. The important thing in this game is evasion+damage. The damage taken isn't important, especially in dungeons as it's almost always going to down you in two hits. The best thing to do is smash before you get smashed.

I agree 100% with this, and in the time I played nobody ever criticized me for doing that as I do perfectly fine in dungeons.

Going full berserker in dungeons is totally viable, even more, it's way better than going tanky... if you got the skills and the correct build to avoid the damage and not get crushed, if you die a lot going full berserker yeah, go knight, it's gonna work better for you.
Not sure if all the classes are the same, but I can say for sure that at least Mesmers, Thiefs and Warriors can go perfectly fine with full zerk.

[deitiesforce]

Normally people are pretty good with doing their job. But two days ago I was doing ac exp and clearly the guardian and warrior had full berserker, because they were constantly down. I'm sure it's a mix of skills and armor. And to top that they were like ya I got berserker because it is the most expensive in TP. That's the time I just rage quit and ditched that two dumbaxx.

[Milennin]

I don't bother ressing people if I know they wear Magic Find or glass cannon gear. Yesterday I was in a PUG with a Warrior admitting wearing full Berserker gear, and he often went down several times during trash fights. It's not worth the risk for me to res someone like that in the middle of a fight. If you don't bother building defensive, then learn to be good enough to not be a burden to your team.
But I'll admit I'd take a berserker over magic find any time of the day. At least the berserker contributes in high DPS, a magic finder does... nothing really, except filling his own pockets.

[Al Shamari]

masmer, on 17 October 2012 - 05:23 PM, said:

The loss of power and crit damage is much larger than you think. Not to say that melee wearing knights/zerk is a bad thing, but it is a 100% complete waste on ranged, especially safe ranged classes like rangers/eles/engis.

This is where Thieves also become confusing. You'll probably see us weapon swapping throughout areas such as dungeons more than almost any other profession. Although melee heavy, we don't have the natural high armor rating and toughness that Guardians and Warriors run, but have the highest melee burst damage. Even when using our range with a short bow or duel pistols, we aren't as safe as those long distance professions you mentioned. So where does this put us? Do we sacrifice a high bust to ensure that we get two-hitted instead of one (because that's all  that extra toughness is going to do for a Thief) or do we rely on our dodges and accept the fact that one-hits are bound to happen.

Edited by Al Shamari, 30 October 2012 - 07:58 PM.