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Supportive Warrior Builds Part II [Numerical Analysis]

support supportive healing banners shouts inspiring battle standard vigorous shouts banners vs shouts shouts vs banners

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#1 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 08:33 PM

I recently wrote a post detailing three main Support Build ideas for Warriors, one of which detailed the use of Banners as a source of the Regeneration Boon, the other was the other uses Burst Healing from Shouts, and the final build idea was a Control build. Anyhow, the details of each of those builds, and the theory behind them can be found in the post “Supportive Warrior Builds [Think tank]” found here: http://www.guildwars...lds-think-tank/

I’ve been commenting on several threads that have been asking about support builds, and whether to choose banners or shouts as a source of Healing. However I’ve been challenged on one particular statement lately. I believe Shouts are a better source of healing than Banners. I’ve detailed a number of reasons why in the other thread. Shouts, I believe, give you more healing for your Healing Power, than Banners do, but I am being challenged on that (and rightly so might I add), so in this thread I am going to detail some Numerical Proof for my theory. This thread is purely to compare the Healing Support builds, so the Control build is not discussed here.


The Scenario:

Firstly, here are some opening statements to set the scene.

Banners:

Banners provide you a large heal over the duration you are under their effects and the talent that makes this so is called Inspiring Battle Standard (or IBS). The other talent usually coupled with this is Inspiring Banners (IB) which reduces Banner cooldown by 20%, and increases their radius. Note however that there is no talent that improves the healing you receive from Banners.

Shouts:

Shouts provide Burst Healing from the Grandmaster Talent, Vigorous Shouts (VS), however in the Master slot there are two “shout augmenting” talents to choose from. Firstly there is “Shrug it Off”, which automatically activates “Shake it Off!” (SIO) if you have more than 2 conditions, it has a 30 second cooldown. Shrug it Off does NOT activate your SIO cooldown, but it does Heal you like other shouts. Secondly, there is “Lung Capacity” which reduces the cooldown of your shouts by 20%.

So those are the two over-arching methods of healing, but what about the numbers? There are equations defining both methods of healing, let’s begin with Banners (NOTE: All numerical proof is done for Level 80):


Empirical Regeneration Formula:

5+(1.563*Level) + (0.125*HealingPower) = Health per Second

OR

t*(5+(1.563*Level) + (0.125*HealingPower)) = Total Healing Done

The symbol "t" represents Time. This equation details how Banner regeneration is dependent upon your Level, and then a factor equal to 12.5% of your Healing Power stat is added, and a constant to provide the amount of health the regeneration ticks for. The left hand side of the equation is rounded up to 130 Health per Second at level 80.

For Shouts, the equation is somewhat simpler:


Empirical Shout Formula: 1192+0.8*HealingPower = Burst Heal

The number 1192 is the amount you are healed for from a Shout at 0 Healing Power. It is important to factor however that I am assuming that you are using For Great Justice, On My Mark, and SIO as your Shouts, which equates to two 25 second cooldowns and a 30 second cooldown.

So which is better?


This is one of those occasions where it’s really hard to crunch the numbers in your head, so I used a Google Spreadsheet to crunch the numbers. Since the banner equation calculates healing done per second, and the Shout equation calculates total heal, the best way to compare these builds on raw healing is to consider a steady state period of 100 seconds (which covers the duration of a banner).

I chose an arbitrary period of 100 seconds because it gives a fair representation of what might be a short boss fight for example. It is necessary to monitor the healing over a non-insignificant period because there are plenty of subjective criteria that undermine either of these builds.

This method of calculation also allows the comparison of Cumulative Healing Done over time.

In order to compare the numbers, the healing is "normalized", i.e. the Banner Healing per second is multiplied by 100 (for each second), and in the google spreadsheet (link below), the data series shows that over 100 seconds, each cell is the cumulative value of itself and the previous cell.

The spreadsheet detailing all of the numbers and charts is found here, it is assumed from here on that you refer to this spreadsheet alongside the rest of this post:


https://docs.google....Q1JRZy1xOVlBa3c

Assumptions:

Given that this is a theoretical comparison of two builds, it is necessary to put forward some assumptions (although I prefer Initial Conditions, as i'm sure do the rest of you Mathematicians/Engineers) Just to explain the spreadsheet a little bit, the general assumptions of this model can be found as:
  • At Time, t=0 you use all of your shouts, and re-use them as soon as they are cooled down (i.e. with Lung Capacity, by 20 seconds you will have used 3 shouts at t=0, and your two 20 second cooldowns are now reused, hence 5 shouts have been performed by 20 seconds).
  • For the “Shrug it Off” data series, this is highly theoretical, unrealistically so in fact. It is assumed that at t=0 you use all 3 shouts, and that at every possible opportunity, your automatic SIO procs as well. This is generally unrealistic, since i'm fairly certain there is no such overwhelming condition application anywhere.
  • It is assumed you remain under the effects of your Banner(s) for the entire 100 seconds.
  • There are two data series relating to Shouts, one for each Master talent that invariably affects the Healing you output.
  • The Banner healing is always a Linear relationship with time, and the only way to improve Banner Healing is via improving Healing Power.
  • Shouts have no activation time, hence it is necessary to ignore that same activation time of Banners too.
Discussion:

At this point I hope you are looking at the spreadsheet. Don't worry too much about what is on the first sheet, that is just the series of numbers relating to each method of healing. The shouts column is manually input for the most part as a number (of shouts) multiplied by the Healing from a shout. At 20 seconds for example, this multiple increases by 2 (up to 5), since you have in theory re-used your shouts again. This is also assumed due to Shouts having no activation time, so it can be accurately expected that the time to activate a shout, have it cool down and use it again, is wholly equal to just the cooldown.

The cases considered are the Healing received with Healing Power = 0, 900, and a Theoretical Maximum. In order to explain the "Theoretical Maximum" I have tried to list all possible sources of Healing Power, and add them up, this includes:

  • Exotic Cleric's Armour: Helm = 45, Shoulders = 34, Chest = 101, Leggings = 67, Boots = 34. Total = 281
  • Weapons: MH = 90, OH = 90, Total = 180
  • Jewellery: 2x Rings = 134, 2x Earrings = 112, Pendant = 90, Total = 336
  • Miscellaneous: Tactics Banner = 90, Defense (30) = 300, Sigil of Life (25 stacks) = 250, Food = 70, Rune (of Water for example) = 165.
  • Grand Total = 1672?
I tried to consider all possible sources of Healing Power, there is Armour, Weapons, Jewellery, then Tactics Banner, Defense Line, Sigil of Life and Food. I can't think of anymore sources of HP right now.

Now to explain the Charts. These are plots of the data series' you can see in the first sheet, this is a much easier representation of healing done. First of all, the Legend:


Blue represents 3x Shout Healing, with Lung Capacity.

This series uses 3 shouts whenever possible, traited with Lung Capacity.

Orange represents 3x Shout Healing, with "Shrug it Off".

This series uses 3 shouts whenever possible, traited with "Shrug it Off", which is assumed to proc every 30 seconds.

Red represents Banner Healing.

This series represents the Healing Done from a Banner over the duration as long as you are consistently under the effects of it's regeneration.

Green represents Banner + 3x Shout Healing COMBINED.

This series looks at the combination of the 3x Lung Capacity Shouts and Banner Healing.

Purple represents 2x Shouts Healing.

This series uses FGJ and SIO only, and compares the healing to Banner regen, doesn't really require much discussion, but there are scenarios where FM is good, so here are the numbers...

Light Blue represents a World vs World idea.

This series is an idea from a commenter, who suggested using FGJ, SIO and then Fear Me! for a WvW oriented build.

It is necessary to state at this point that Shrug it Off is generally discounted as a viable comparitive tool for Healing, since to actually achieve the numbers it suggests it relies on highly theoretical assumptions (i.e. that as soon as the auto SIO cools down you will immediately have it proc again, which is largely untrue). As such, Lung Capacity Shouts will be used as the legitimate comparison.

By constructing this spreadsheet, it is clear now more than ever that Shouts are the more dominant source of Healing. At the bottom of each data column are cells with %age values, showing how much MORE Shouts heal by compared to banners over that 100 second duration.


An interesting point I followed up was to run a data set of wholly unrealistic levels of healing power for 100 seconds, and compare healing done then (see "Convergence" in the spreadsheet). The Banner healing DOES begin to converge to Shout healing, but will never overtake it, even at 20000 Healing Power (yes, Twenty Thousand!). I performed this short analysis by using the equations for Shouts and Banners, and just substituting different values of HP, and multiplied the Banner equation by 100 (seconds) and the Shout equation by 17 (that's how many shouts in 100 seconds).

The chart in the sheet named "Convergence" shows the way in which Banners converge to Shouts. As you will see, the blue line on the graph is the ratio of Shout Healing to Banner Healing (for 3 shouts), and it shows that as HP approaches infinity 3x Shouts will always be ~9% more effective, they will never meet. However for the red line, this shows the ratio of 2x Shouts vs Banner healing, and it shows that at HP approaching Infinity, Banners will be ~23% more effective.

2x Shouts, or 3x Shouts?

This is a section i said I would add in for comparing 2 shouts to Banners. Refer again to the google spreadsheet and look at all the charts again. The new purple line represents Healing from using 2 shouts (FGJ and SIO). By referring to the "Convergence" sheet, you'll see the exponential curves again, this time I added a red line to represent a comparison of 2x shout healing to Banners. Note how the line is always below 100%, and converges at ~77%, this shows the theoretical convergence between using 2 shouts compared to Banners.

The main difference between using 3 shouts and 2 shouts (with Lung Capacity) is that with 2x Shouts, you ultimately use 5 less shouts across the 100 second period.

However, for achievable levels of HP, 3x shouts are roughly ~27% more effective than Banners, and Banners are roughly ~10.5% more effective than 2x Shouts. It is important to note that adding in that extra shout (OMM) every 24 seconds (totalling 5 extra shouts over 100 seconds), goes from a -11.33% to a 25.61% margin over the test period. You can draw whatever conclusions you like from this difference, but this highlights just how pivotal it is for a VS build to hinge upon 3 shouts as opposed to 2 for maximum effectiveness.

I'm sure some of you have probably seen exponential curves like this before, as such you know that it will continue until Infinity, and they will never be equal. However, this post has relied on one great generalization, the idea that this is level 80. Theoretically speaking, what if the level cap increases? I haven't done the maths on this just yet, but the Shout Healing constant of 1192 is woefully ambiguous, and needs to be properly broken down in to a factor of Level, and possibly a constant. Once I do that, i'll be able to discern if in light of a level cap increase in an expansion, if Banner and Shout Healing might be different.

The Effect of Healing Power on each method:

I originally theorized that Shouts benefited more from Healing Power than Banners do, I was challenged on this, however by comparing the numbers for HP=900 (Lung Capacity) at 100 seconds, Shouts have healed for 32504 Health, Banners have healed for 24488, the following formula allows bonus healing done as a result of healing power to be found:

(Total Healing – Base Healing)/Healing Power = Health Healed per point of Healing Power

Hence for Shouts: (32504-20264)/900= 13.6 Health per point of HP over 100 seconds.

And for Banners: (24488-(130*100))/900 = 12.76 Health per point of HP over 100 seconds.


Note: 13.6 and 12.76 are constants, and remain the same for all values of HP (but not constant with respect to Time).

The above equations show that Shouts benefit more from Healing Power than Banners do over a non-insignificant period of time, albeit not by much. I’ll explain this further. The formula above eliminates the effect of “Base Healing”, i.e. the healing you would receive from Shouts/Banners at 0 Healing Power, and so the difference between Base and Total is the Healing you have received solely from your Healing Power stat. Dividing this by Healing Power shows how much Health is gained per point of Healing Power.


Considering that 1672 is the relative Max Healing (or if it isn't, it's certainly very very close), at this level of HP, Shouts heal 26.77% more than Banners do. Despite the convergence I showed between them, at least at realistic levels of Healing power, this is the crucial numerical proof that Shouts heal more than Banners. Note however that I said Shouts heal more, not that they are universally better...

As a short justification for the method I chose to do this analysis I'd like to explain the idea of using 100 seconds in more depth. I chose to analyze the healing done over 100 seconds, because it is trivial to consider this as a transient case (i.e. the Healing over a fleeting period of time), since the numbers would be wildly skewed in favour of shouts. Whereas 100 seconds is easily enough time to encompass an entire Banner (they seem to stay down for ~90 seconds). Like most things, you need a period of time to fully establish a pattern, for example when you switch a radiator on, the room does not instantly heat up to the desired temperature, but it probably has done after 1 hour. So if by chance, Thermodynamics is your thing and you were analyzing how fast your room would heat up, you'd need to compare the heating rate from the minimum temperature, to the maximum in order to correctly reach a conclusion.


Summary:

Finally, while I think i've satisfactorily proved that Shouts heal more than Banners (even in highly theoretical, stochastic and even wildly unrealistic conditions) I’ll end on a few subjective cases to compare and contrast the builds to one another, since there are characteristics outside of the Numerical side that can alter the effectiveness of each build:
  • I’ll begin with the obvious, Banners are a gradual regeneration over time, some encounters don't see you taking devastating damage, there are plenty of cases where you might tank multiple weak mobs. Regeneration can actually allow you to not even drop health here. However with Shouts you would actually have to invoke your cooldowns... Regeneration can be seen as another "layer of defense" if you will.
  • ...However on the flip side, when you get hit for 8k, there’s nothing like blowing your shouts and recovering most of that health right back.
  • Shout Healing does benefit from two Master talents (although you may only use one at a time), whereas Banners have no such Healing augment.
  • A lot of the counter-arguments I have encountered for Shouts not benefiting as much from HP as shouts do, is that people forget the “Triple Effect”, I’ve been over the fact that for VS to be viable you need to use FGJ, SIO, and OMM, so any Healing bonus you get on your shouts is effectively tripled.
  • The results of 2x Shouts vs Banners showed that for high HP, Banners are more dominant. However at low HP, the healing effectiveness is almost identical.
  • For VS to be viable you need all 3 Shouts, for Banners to be viable, you can basically get away with 1 Banner, with a few seconds of down-time before putting it back up.
  • If by some miracle you had two Vigorous Shouts warriors, the healing provided by each would of course stack. But if you came across two Banner regeneration warriors, then sadly you wouldn't get any exponential benefit to healing, just a longer regeneration.
  • Then again, 2 VS warriors are not great either, think of all the over-healing.
  • The previous two points demonstrate how Banners and Shouts synergize perfectly, since neither build impinges on the method of healing of the other.
  • Shouts can provide a lot of condition removal, in the sense that taking 6 Superior Soldier Runes cause your shouts to remove a condition from anyone under the effects (Shake it Off now removes 2!), which is ideal as a team-support mechanism.
  • Banners provide nice buffs, Strength and Disc banners are a great DPS boost, but likewise Tactics and Defense are great for giving some extra defensive stats.
In summary, the idea of committing to Clerics Gear and going VS, CANNOT be compared to running an offensive trait spec and using Regen Banners, because at the end of the day they are different builds.

This post was generally to clarify that if you have Clerics Gear, don’t waste your talents on Banners, there are Greener Pastures for you if you run 3x Shouts. Just think about that magical Green Line on the chart showing the healing you get from running a VS Warrior alongside an IBS Warrior!

So now I leave you with this: I challenge anyone closed-minded enough to say Warriors cannot play support, here is the evidence, support your teammates!


Points to Add Later:
  • Compare the effectiveness of just FGJ+SIO vs Banner Healing.
  • Consider the effect of a level cap increase.
  • Incorporate WvW elements (including FGJ+SIO+FM).

Edited by Sithicus Dias, 02 November 2012 - 07:08 PM.


#2 Anam Itheoir

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:35 PM

I wish I had the time as I did before to run the numbers on damage to healing ratio.  I always enjoyed your posts, and came to the same theory as yours by real time application.  My guild has a guardian who currently is running regen, and I run shouts together we clock, he switches to shout I switch to regen and we still roll, but I noticed a distinct difference when running regen build as to the amount of times we are low on health and dodging as opposed to me just popping shouts and continuing.

Granted, I think in terms of total group support 4 banners crushes 3 shouts and Signet of Rage.  4 banners with appropriate cooldowns is a larger increase i group damage/support/boon duration. If you run Banner of defense, banner of compassion, and whatever the power one is along with appropriate specs, your total contribution to the team will be much higher than a shout build.  

However, you can never discount the 6k heals from shouts.  BTW, my theory was if you are running Shout Heals with cleric gear than you are essentially limited to maces or hammer for weapons which severely reduces your overall damage. Though you could run the Max Mace build and do some nice damage.

#3 GamerGeek

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 09:35 PM

View PostSithicus Dias, on 15 October 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

Hence for Shouts: (32504-1192)/900=34.8 Health per point of HP

And for Banners: (24488-(130*100))/900 = 12.76 Health per point of HP
Im also glad someone enjoys the math :). You made a mistake here however, In the first calculation you used ONE shout, in the second you used regeneration over 100 second. The correct would be, (32504-20264)/900=13.6 Health per point of HP. So the difference here isnt much, and I think you are doing the wrong comparrison. What you stated in the other thread was this, regeneration would not improve as much from HP as shouts. Thats still incorrect, using your numbers shouts improved by 60%(32504/20264) whereas regeneration/banners improved by 87%(24488/13125). Shouts being better overall is something else entirely.

Id like to make another comparrisson as well. With 0 HP shouts are 53% better(20264/13125) while with 900 HP they are 33% better(32504/24488), this means that if you could continue to stack HP regeneration would eventually catch up and pass shouts.

I guess it also depends on how you define improvement. In my opinion going from 1 to 5 is a bigger improvment than going from 10 to 15.

Edited by GamerGeek, 15 October 2012 - 09:48 PM.


#4 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:15 PM

View PostAnam Itheoir, on 15 October 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

However, you can never discount the 6k heals from shouts.  BTW, my theory was if you are running Shout Heals with cleric gear than you are essentially limited to maces or hammer for weapons which severely reduces your overall damage. Though you could run the Max Mace build and do some nice damage.

I see your point, but I regularly just equip an Axe in the MH for better damage. I switch to Mace if i need more blocks and a Daze. Plus, being able to keep applying weakness is really useful sometime.

Thanks for the correction Gamer Geek, i should stop posting things when i'm so tired, it almost felt too good to be true making that comparison... Also i'm clearly trying to draw a conclusion that isn't really true about shouts benefitting more, I suppose I just wanted to prove that Shouts technically are more powerful in the grand scheme. And yes, I was thinking that if you went far enough perhaps regeneration could catch up. I'll mess around with some more numbers and see what it shows. I guess you probably noticed how close the Shout and Banner lines are on the graph at HP=900.

One thing that I still keep forgetting to confirm is whether or not the stats you get from Traits show in the Hero screen, I think i'm currently on 963 or something, but "possibly" with 300 more, I keep forgetting to just check. I suppose doing the analysis for 900 isn't really too ambitious, so we might just find it's possible that you can reach the point where the lines cross, more to come soon!

Edited by Sithicus Dias, 15 October 2012 - 10:22 PM.


#5 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:28 PM

View PostAnam Itheoir, on 15 October 2012 - 09:35 PM, said:

I wish I had the time as I did before to run the numbers on damage to healing ratio.  I always enjoyed your posts, and came to the same theory as yours by real time application.  

I know what you mean, i sort of hashed this out after work, after spending a good 20 minutes AT work furiously scribbling down ideas hehe. What i really want to do with these two Support threads i've made is just encourage a discussion between warriors, it's useful for us to be able to share experiences and build ideas between us all. I'd encourage non-warriors to read it too, because the Regeneration mechanic is very widespread, so I think there is plenty of core-ideology that can be identified with by a lot of different classes. For example, subjectively speaking, i'm yet to see a Mesmer running anything nice in my dungeon teams, yet I keep hearing about some really nice things like using Illusions to spawn protection boon, but alas, we shall see!

Edited by Sithicus Dias, 15 October 2012 - 10:30 PM.


#6 Blazer

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:32 PM

Amazing post. I'm not yet level 80 with my warrior (65 atm) and I love running support in dungeon groups.
Have been using a build with Longbow/Sword+Warhorn and some tactics traits to empower allies etc. but your build brings support to a whole new level. Can't wait to try out the shouts build (altho I am not certain it's very effective at 'lower' levels).

Thanks for sharing :)

#7 Anam Itheoir

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 10:50 PM

View PostSithicus Dias, on 15 October 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

I see your point, but I regularly just equip an Axe in the MH for better damage. I switch to Mace if i need more blocks and a Daze. Plus, being able to keep applying weakness is really useful sometime.

Thanks for the correction Gamer Geek, i should stop posting things when i'm so tired, it almost felt too good to be true making that comparison... Also i'm clearly trying to draw a conclusion that isn't really true about shouts benefitting more, I suppose I just wanted to prove that Shouts technically are more powerful in the grand scheme. And yes, I was thinking that if you went far enough perhaps regeneration could catch up. I'll mess around with some more numbers and see what it shows. I guess you probably noticed how close the Shout and Banner lines are on the graph at HP=900.

One thing that I still keep forgetting to confirm is whether or not the stats you get from Traits show in the Hero screen, I think i'm currently on 963 or something, but "possibly" with 300 more, I keep forgetting to just check. I suppose doing the analysis for 900 isn't really too ambitious, so we might just find it's possible that you can reach the point where the lines cross, more to come soon!

Shouts benefit more in terms of burst healing.  There are multiple sources of regen/hot but only two classes that can give strong burst healing, guardians and warriors.  Banner builds profit more in that the amount of HoT is only changed by at most 100 HPS so you can go strong on damage and simply attribute the regen to give your team a bit of help.  145 hps is very nice on a constant basis, but a shout build healer can be a life saver.


As a side note, regen is an odd mechanic in that if someone else has a stronger regen over 5 seconds it interrupts my regen for theirs.  The bonus of the banner build is that our regen is a constant, so if I am running with a Healing ele and he applies his major regen it will interrupt mine for his than mine will resume.  Granted, I don't drop only one banner as that would defeat the point of a banner build.  I drop 3 all the time, my group picks them up and brings them to the next area. Banner of Compassion = Tasty boon duration buff along with healing power.  

However with a 100 percent up time on regen, your regen ele or guardian has less to worry about in terms of keeping their regen going, they can simply play.  However, the downside is if aoe takes down your banner or you get bumped out of range by a moving boss.

#8 GamerGeek

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Posted 15 October 2012 - 11:03 PM

View PostSithicus Dias, on 15 October 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

Thanks for the correction Gamer Geek, i should stop posting things when i'm so tired, it almost felt too good to be true making that comparison... Also i'm clearly trying to draw a conclusion that isn't really true about shouts benefitting more, I suppose I just wanted to prove that Shouts technically are more powerful in the grand scheme.
Yeah as should I. My math was correct but I drew a wrong conclusion. Regeneration will never catch up to shouts. It bugged me that shouts gained more healing per HP and yet I came to the conclusion that regeneration would catch up... ? The lower percentage was just product of the higher numbers. Shouts do gain more healing per HP, as I said earlier regeneration improves more based on its original value but shouts is the better healing method hands down.

Sigh, I cant even get a quote right. Third times the charm :). Now bed.

Edited by GamerGeek, 15 October 2012 - 11:05 PM.


#9 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 09:04 AM

View PostBlazer, on 15 October 2012 - 10:32 PM, said:

Can't wait to try out the shouts build (altho I am not certain it's very effective at 'lower' levels).

Thanks for sharing :)

I can certainly try and model that, I just need to derive the *actual* formula for shouts, because they don't heal 1192+0.8*HP at lower levels that's for sure ;)


View PostAnam Itheoir, on 15 October 2012 - 10:50 PM, said:


As a side note, regen is an odd mechanic in that if someone else has a stronger regen over 5 seconds it interrupts my regen for theirs.  The bonus of the banner build is that our regen is a constant, so if I am running with a Healing ele and he applies his major regen it will interrupt mine for his than mine will resume.  Granted, I don't drop only one banner as that would defeat the point of a banner build.  I drop 3 all the time, my group picks them up and brings them to the next area. Banner of Compassion = Tasty boon duration buff along with healing power.  

However with a 100 percent up time on regen, your regen ele or guardian has less to worry about in terms of keeping their regen going, they can simply play.  However, the downside is if aoe takes down your banner or you get bumped out of range by a moving boss.

That's an interesting thing to consider, it is a bit of a shame that you can end up colliding with other players doing a similar role.


View PostGamerGeek, on 15 October 2012 - 11:03 PM, said:

Yeah as should I. My math was correct but I drew a wrong conclusion. Regeneration will never catch up to shouts. It bugged me that shouts gained more healing per HP and yet I came to the conclusion that regeneration would catch up... ? The lower percentage was just product of the higher numbers. Shouts do gain more healing per HP, as I said earlier regeneration improves more based on its original value but shouts is the better healing method hands down.

Sigh, I cant even get a quote right. Third times the charm :). Now bed.

Well, i'll take a look at really high healing power, like if you went ALL the way with clerics gear in every slot, it will be interesting to see that as a Maximum (including things like Banner of Tactics, Sigil of Life etc) so we can get an idea of the glass ceiling!

#10 GamerGeek

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:34 AM

I had another thought about banners. Its about the compassionate banner skill(http://wiki.guildwar...ssionate_Banner). Is the healing based on the person using the skill or the person who "owns" the banner. If the banner warrior is not using HP gear, can someone else with HP pick it up and use a really powerful heal? Id like to test this myself but Im at work right now, maybe when I get home.

Anam Itheoir, also brings up some good points. A banner build doesnt neccesserily need a really powerful regen if someone else is picking up the slack.

#11 stefanplc

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:09 AM

I didn't actually read your entire post, skimmed through it, however as I was debating over shouts vs banners myself a while ago, one thing that I realized that I needed to consider is that using a banner allows you to use 2 other utility skills where with a shout build you need to use all 3. Once you get better at the game and you learn how to predict what your opponents will do next, you'll realize that a well placed Ignore Pain can be the equivalent of all 3 shouts if not 2-3 times as effective. If you're using the toughness banner, that 90 toughness or whatever it gives you can also be around 6%+ up to 20% damage reduction I believe which on a 20k HP warrior is 1-4k HP.

#12 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 11:55 AM

View Poststefanplc, on 16 October 2012 - 11:09 AM, said:

I didn't actually read your entire post, skimmed through it, however as I was debating over shouts vs banners myself a while ago, one thing that I realized that I needed to consider is that using a banner allows you to use 2 other utility skills where with a shout build you need to use all 3. Once you get better at the game and you learn how to predict what your opponents will do next, you'll realize that a well placed Ignore Pain can be the equivalent of all 3 shouts if not 2-3 times as effective. If you're using the toughness banner, that 90 toughness or whatever it gives you can also be around 6%+ up to 20% damage reduction I believe which on a 20k HP warrior is 1-4k HP.

Yeah you make some good points, while I can crunch numbers until the end of time, there are always going to be subjective areas where you just cannot compare the builds. From a situational viewpoint, each build has their own strengths.


View PostGamerGeek, on 16 October 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

I had another thought about banners. Its about the compassionate banner skill(http://wiki.guildwar...ssionate_Banner). Is the healing based on the person using the skill or the person who "owns" the banner. If the banner warrior is not using HP gear, can someone else with HP pick it up and use a really powerful heal? Id like to test this myself but Im at work right now, maybe when I get home.

Anam Itheoir, also brings up some good points. A banner build doesnt neccesserily need a really powerful regen if someone else is picking up the slack.

Very interesting idea there, it would be awesome if you could sort of "Gimmick" it such that the banner is based upon your HP completely!

#13 Anam Itheoir

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 03:43 PM

View PostGamerGeek, on 16 October 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

I had another thought about banners. Its about the compassionate banner skill(http://wiki.guildwar...ssionate_Banner). Is the healing based on the person using the skill or the person who "owns" the banner. If the banner warrior is not using HP gear, can someone else with HP pick it up and use a really powerful heal? Id like to test this myself but Im at work right now, maybe when I get home.

Anam Itheoir, also brings up some good points. A banner build doesnt neccesserily need a really powerful regen if someone else is picking up the slack.

Banner of Compassion is buff on the player since it's a baseline stat buff it simply buffs your existing HP, and all the abilities on the banner are based on whoever is picking it up.  This means if I have 900 HP and drop a banner than it adds 90 HP to that amount.  If the thief with me comes under the buff he gets 90 HP added to his 150HP.  It's a flat buff.  For example I almost always have 40 percent boon duration, so the 10 percent boon duration buff adds to that so I may end up with almost a minute of swiftness sometimes where others will have only 40 seconds.  

In short, they are a flat numerical buff based on the level of the area you are in.  I will test the regen portion tonight, but I believe the regen on it is based on whoever picks it up.

Edited by Anam Itheoir, 16 October 2012 - 03:44 PM.


#14 GamerGeek

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:46 PM

View PostAnam Itheoir, on 16 October 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

Banner of Compassion is buff on the player since it's a baseline stat buff it simply buffs your existing HP, and all the abilities on the banner are based on whoever is picking it up.  This means if I have 900 HP and drop a banner than it adds 90 HP to that amount.  If the thief with me comes under the buff he gets 90 HP added to his 150HP.  It's a flat buff.  For example I almost always have 40 percent boon duration, so the 10 percent boon duration buff adds to that so I may end up with almost a minute of swiftness sometimes where others will have only 40 seconds.  

In short, they are a flat numerical buff based on the level of the area you are in.  I will test the regen portion tonight, but I believe the regen on it is based on whoever picks it up.
Its not the buff or regen Im reffering to. When you pick up a banner your weapons skills are replaced, in case of the "Banner of Tactics" one of them is the "Compassionate Banner" skill:

Inspire nearby allies, healing them.   
Posted Image Regeneration: 5 s (650 health)   
Posted Image Healing: 3,840   
Posted Image Range: 600

Its this skill Im wondering about, Im assuming it will be based on whoever picks up the banner but Im not sure.

Edited by GamerGeek, 16 October 2012 - 04:46 PM.


#15 Graham_Specter

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:55 PM

I must say I'm glad that you've posted this build - And I can't wait to try Shouts; even though my DPS may be a bit reduced (Heck, who cares about that if I'm dead?) I've been sort of bummed in lower levels by seeing other Warriors (Greatswords, Axes, and so forth) facerolling everything. But I doubt that's going to last. Condition cleansing on all shouts (Doubly so with "Shake it Off!", awesome Might stackage for the whole party (Three stacks is pretty decent, especially in a big WvW group) and enough survivability to solo veterans and have a decent go of it against champions (With support of course). I'm looking forward to running this.

And, hey, if I can convince a guildie to run Banners or Shouts along with me, we're gonna have a hard time being wiped in WvW. Well, until the zerg shows up.

#16 Cowmonaut

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 07:22 PM

Very interesting information.  I'm going to have to dive into it in full tonight.  It brings up some interesting build opportunities.

Vote for sticky, don't want to lose this information!

#17 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 09:10 PM

I'd love my support threads to get sticky! But i don't think I know the right people hehe

#18 Anam Itheoir

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 10:00 PM

View PostGraham_Specter, on 18 October 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

I must say I'm glad that you've posted this build - And I can't wait to try Shouts; even though my DPS may be a bit reduced (Heck, who cares about that if I'm dead?) I've been sort of bummed in lower levels by seeing other Warriors (Greatswords, Axes, and so forth) facerolling everything. But I doubt that's going to last. Condition cleansing on all shouts (Doubly so with "Shake it Off!", awesome Might stackage for the whole party (Three stacks is pretty decent, especially in a big WvW group) and enough survivability to solo veterans and have a decent go of it against champions (With support of course). I'm looking forward to running this.

And, hey, if I can convince a guildie to run Banners or Shouts along with me, we're gonna have a hard time being wiped in WvW. Well, until the zerg shows up.

Banners is really difficult to play effectively in wvwvw.  It's better to run dual shouts, and save banners for dungeons.  Banners are great in a static enclosed in environment.  Shouts are better in a dynamic open environment.  Any decent support build will see a dip in personal damage dealt.  Shouts provide a great survival support, while Banners provide a significant total group damage upgrade.  I run S/S or LB Banner build with our shout specced guardian.

I run a dps shout build with maces, when we have boon speccs because Shouts plus damage per boon = amazing damage.  Either way, I hate the GS, find the axes boring, think signets are a waste of a utility skill, and favor the animation of mace's and swords over anything else the warriors have.  Plus with a mace shout build (rune of soldier) I can run with berzerker gear and most of my trinkets berzerker with just the rings being Knight gear.

#19 Graham_Specter

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 11:28 PM

View PostAnam Itheoir, on 18 October 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

Banners is really difficult to play effectively in wvwvw.  It's better to run dual shouts, and save banners for dungeons.  Banners are great in a static enclosed in environment.  Shouts are better in a dynamic open environment.  Any decent support build will see a dip in personal damage dealt.  Shouts provide a great survival support, while Banners provide a significant total group damage upgrade.  I run S/S or LB Banner build with our shout specced guardian.

I run a dps shout build with maces, when we have boon speccs because Shouts plus damage per boon = amazing damage.  Either way, I hate the GS, find the axes boring, think signets are a waste of a utility skill, and favor the animation of mace's and swords over anything else the warriors have.  Plus with a mace shout build (rune of soldier) I can run with berzerker gear and most of my trinkets berzerker with just the rings being Knight gear.

Eh, I'll continue to run my planned defensive shout build. Different strokes after all.

Thanks for the advice on banners at least - I'm working on getting a few supportive build ideas down for my allies before our next WvW endeavor.

#20 Anam Itheoir

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 11:50 PM

View PostGraham_Specter, on 18 October 2012 - 11:28 PM, said:

Eh, I'll continue to run my planned defensive shout build. Different strokes after all.

Thanks for the advice on banners at least - I'm working on getting a few supportive build ideas down for my allies before our next WvW endeavor.


Currently, I am in love with Frenzy.  It is amazing with my mace and on a 60 sec timer, I use it with Signet of Rage for some serious fun. Granted I don't do a lot of wvwvw, but in pve it's a blast.  Fear Me/Shake it Off and the Might fury one whose name is escaping me are the three I would recommend for wvwvw, but I am not a huge fan of On My Mark. Only reason I carry On my mark on my build is because it's a short CD condition removal.

#21 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 08:16 AM

View PostAnam Itheoir, on 18 October 2012 - 11:50 PM, said:

Only reason I carry On my mark on my build is because it's a short CD condition removal.

Hehe that's the only reason anyone carries it ;) It's a shame Fear Me has a pretty unrealistic cooldown, if it was maybe 15-20 seconds shorter i'd probably use it. Also, i'd love to see an Elite Shout sometime soon. If that came along I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if they nerfed things a little bit (i.e. only 3 shouts on your bar). I think most people can attest to Warrior Elites generally not being good, with Signet of Rage usually the skill of choice, and Battle Standard in certain situations.

#22 Anam Itheoir

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 03:18 PM

View PostSithicus Dias, on 19 October 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

Hehe that's the only reason anyone carries it ;) It's a shame Fear Me has a pretty unrealistic cooldown, if it was maybe 15-20 seconds shorter i'd probably use it. Also, i'd love to see an Elite Shout sometime soon. If that came along I wouldn't necessarily be surprised if they nerfed things a little bit (i.e. only 3 shouts on your bar). I think most people can attest to Warrior Elites generally not being good, with Signet of Rage usually the skill of choice, and Battle Standard in certain situations.

My gm thinks OMM is the greatest single target shout out there. I have no desire to correct him on it's really weak ability.  Even with extended duration it's a stack of 10 that falls off the target really fast.  However, I digress.  I find there are numerous abilities that provide more pure damage, but when traited for condition removal with shouts. I drop Shake it Off since it's redundant at that point and pick up Frenzy.

As for elites,  Battle Standard > Signet of Rage> Any Cultural Elite > Nothing > Spitting in a bucket > Juggernaught,  the battle standard rezzes allies!! If traited it's up more often and the rezzes are amazing.  A guildmate of mine runs banners, and we both use battle standard as a rez half the time. Signet of Rage is decent even with the awful animation.

#23 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 06:10 PM

View PostAnam Itheoir, on 19 October 2012 - 03:18 PM, said:

I drop Shake it Off since it's redundant at that point and pick up Frenzy.

As for elites,  Battle Standard > Signet of Rage> Any Cultural Elite > Nothing > Spitting in a bucket > Juggernaught,  the battle standard rezzes allies!! If traited it's up more often and the rezzes are amazing.  A guildmate of mine runs banners, and we both use battle standard as a rez half the time. Signet of Rage is decent even with the awful animation.

Well, it's not necessarily redundant, it clears 2 conditions instead of 1 which is kind of nice.

As for Battle Standard, it is pretty good yes, but the cool down is too long for it to be the primary elite. Plus, resurrecting allies is very quick, especially with all the bonuses you gain from the Tactics line. But yes, i can definitely agree with you when you say you run it with two people. I myself run these two healing builds with another warrior, and when you have 2 Battle Standards it is definitely a lot more viable. Rage is a better DPS option, but there are just some boss fights that *demand* a Battle Standard as a fail safe.

#24 Anam Itheoir

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 06:40 PM

View PostSithicus Dias, on 19 October 2012 - 06:10 PM, said:

Well, it's not necessarily redundant, it clears 2 conditions instead of 1 which is kind of nice.

As for Battle Standard, it is pretty good yes, but the cool down is too long for it to be the primary elite. Plus, resurrecting allies is very quick, especially with all the bonuses you gain from the Tactics line. But yes, i can definitely agree with you when you say you run it with two people. I myself run these two healing builds with another warrior, and when you have 2 Battle Standards it is definitely a lot more viable. Rage is a better DPS option, but there are just some boss fights that *demand* a Battle Standard as a fail safe.

Rage is only better for personal DPS.  180 seconds is standard fro almost every really strong elite. Rage is only better in the fact that you can pull out two for every one, but you do realize that the standard lasts 45 seconds and the cool down on the ability starts once it's placed.  So it's technically only down for 2 minutes.  Since it's a group buff it's a better support elite.

Are you sure that Shake It Off clears two conditions?  I have never seen that to be the case.  As far as I am aware it only clears 1.  I don't ever remember it cleansing two which is why I dumped it.

Edited by Anam Itheoir, 19 October 2012 - 06:40 PM.


#25 XionValkyrie

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 08:44 PM

View PostAnam Itheoir, on 19 October 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

Rage is only better for personal DPS.  180 seconds is standard fro almost every really strong elite. Rage is only better in the fact that you can pull out two for every one, but you do realize that the standard lasts 45 seconds and the cool down on the ability starts once it's placed.  So it's technically only down for 2 minutes.  Since it's a group buff it's a better support elite.

Are you sure that Shake It Off clears two conditions?  I have never seen that to be the case.  As far as I am aware it only clears 1.  I don't ever remember it cleansing two which is why I dumped it.

It only clears 2 if you're using full superior rune of the soldiers.

#26 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 10:48 PM

View PostAnam Itheoir, on 19 October 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

Are you sure that Shake It Off clears two conditions?  I have never seen that to be the case.  As far as I am aware it only clears 1.  I don't ever remember it cleansing two which is why I dumped it.

I should clarify, with a Soldier Rune it clears 2, absolutely 100%, and 2 off of allies too.

Yeah Battle Standard is the better support elite, but the thing with these builds is i'm trying encourage people to be able to support while still pushing as much damage as they can. Battle Standard has it's uses, but I don't think they're evident all the time.

#27 Anam Itheoir

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 11:05 PM

View PostSithicus Dias, on 19 October 2012 - 10:48 PM, said:

I should clarify, with a Soldier Rune it clears 2, absolutely 100%, and 2 off of allies too.

Yeah Battle Standard is the better support elite, but the thing with these builds is i'm trying encourage people to be able to support while still pushing as much damage as they can. Battle Standard has it's uses, but I don't think they're evident all the time.

The difference is 60 seconds of down time unless you spec for reduced signets.  If you don't spec for 20 percent reduction in signets or banners than the difference is 1 more push of SoR versus The ability to free rez and buff everyone in your party.  I am not sure how rage gives you a greater amount of damage.  

I think you are discounting how strong Battle Standard can be.  I am firmly of the belief in group settings Battle Standard is significantly better than SoR unless you take the reduced CD on signets trait. Though Juggernaught tops all of them, that's why it's on a super long timer ;p.

#28 Siroso

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 12:19 AM

Seeing Taugrim's "Captain Hammer" build is what initially inspired me to roll as a warrior.
Since hitting level 60, my play style has revolved around shout healing.

Your posts have been hugely informative and great for reaffirming that warriors can provide fantastic support in group situations - so thanks for that!

What has surprised me over the last few week of lurking on this forum is that I haven't seen anyone singing the praises of the longbow/hammer combination.
Because my build is hardly revolutionary, and as it is inspired by these threads, I thought I would look for feedback on it here.

This build revolves around shout healing and might stacking, making it perfect for an off-tank role in dungeons, or as part of a small group in WvW.

For skills I always take Mending, "For Great Justice" and "Shake it Off". The other utility skill I swap between "On My Mark!" (typically for PvE) and "Fear Me!" (typically for WvW). My elite skill swaps between Signet of Rage (when it suits in WvW) and Battle Standard (for PvE, and sometimes in WvW).

Traits-wise, I took 25 in the Defence tree taking Embrace the Pain and Merciless Hammer.
Put 30 points into Tactics (of course) for Stronger Bowstrings, Lung Capacity and Vigorous shouts.
The last 15 points go into Discipline and Inspiring Shouts.

For equipment I use clerics gear for the healing power, toughness and power that it provides.
I use Superior Runes of the Soldier, as condition removal is brilliant... I have tried the build with runes of Dwayna as well, and while this could work in dungeons if nobody else in your group has regeneration, they feel less useful than Soldiers.
I use the Sigil that gives might on weapon swap, to help stack up your might - for dungeons the Sigils with healing stack on kill will likely be far more useful (and could be in WvW if you can be bothered building the stacks, or do so easily).

All of this is very standard for a shout healing build. The strength of longbow/hammer comes from the fire combo field. When a fire combo field is hit by a blast finisher, it gives 3 stacks of might for 20 seconds. The longbow burst skill provides the combo field, and you have multiple blast finishers - arcing arrow, the hammer burst skill and possibly battle standard (when that is your elite). By opening a fight with perhaps your longbow 4, 5, and FGJ for adrenaline, longbow burst skill, arcing arrow, then hammer burst (with adrenaline from damage, weapon swap and maybe another shout) you give your nearby allies 9 stacks of might. As you gain 3 stacks on weapon swap, you have 12 stacks very quickly. As might gives 35 power and condition damage, that's 315 of each for your allies, and 420 for yourself. 5 seconds after this you can swap back to your longbow, hit another combustive shot, arcing arrow and use your banner as a blast finisher just to show off how useful you are. 25 stacks of might (which is easy to reach with a good rotation, and particularly in a group) gives a bonus of 875 to both your damage stats! Lots of fun.

Let me know what you think of the build, and if you have any refinements to suggest!


Edited by Siroso, 20 October 2012 - 01:24 AM.


#29 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 09:40 AM

View PostAnam Itheoir, on 19 October 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

Though Juggernaught tops all of them, that's why it's on a super long timer ;p.

Oh of course, we all bow down to the...Supremacy of Juggernaut ;)

You sir, are forcing me to field test Battle Standard some more... just in case i've missed something :P

View PostSiroso, on 20 October 2012 - 12:19 AM, said:


All of this is very standard for a shout healing build. The strength of longbow/hammer comes from the fire combo field. When a fire combo field is hit by a blast finisher, it gives 3 stacks of might for 20 seconds. The longbow burst skill provides the combo field, and you have multiple blast finishers - arcing arrow, the hammer burst skill and possibly battle standard (when that is your elite). By opening a fight with perhaps your longbow 4, 5, and FGJ for adrenaline, longbow burst skill, arcing arrow, then hammer burst (with adrenaline from damage, weapon swap and maybe another shout) you give your nearby allies 9 stacks of might. As you gain 3 stacks on weapon swap, you have 12 stacks very quickly. As might gives 35 power and condition damage, that's 315 of each for your allies, and 420 for yourself. 5 seconds after this you can swap back to your longbow, hit another combustive shot, arcing arrow and use your banner as a blast finisher just to show off how useful you are. 25 stacks of might (which is easy to reach with a good rotation, and particularly in a group) gives a bonus of 875 to both your damage stats! Lots of fun.

That's a very interesting suggestion, I hadn't even considered this really, I'll give this a whirl and see what's what. Thanks for the suggestion! :)

#30 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 12:38 PM

Hey guys, updated the thread and the spreadsheet to add some extra points and clarify the proof a little bit. I added a propsect of stacking the maximum Healing Power you can (Equipment, Defense trait line, food, tactics banner) please feel free to fact-check if you think i've missed something!

I added a lot of formatting to highlight important points and generally make it "easier on the eyes" as a fellow Guru poster suggested :)




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