87 replies to this topic

[Sithicus Dias]

Ok i'm sorry but Battle Standard really isn't that good. First of all, the Rez is a one time thing, it doesn't keep renewing, nor does the stability. As for the Might and Fury, you will never exceed 5 stacks of the former, and then the Fury is there form FGJ anyway. Signet gives you 5 stacks of might, and Fury, and Swiftness, like the standard does. With Tactics you get 39 seconds of it, and then after waiting 21 more seconds you can use it again (except if you have Signet Mastery when you wait 9 second instead). I'm not seeing the appeal for BS as it gives you similar stats and has a disastrous cooldown.

Don't get me wrong, BS rez is useful sometimes, but it shouldn't be the Elite of choice.

[Sithicus Dias]

Bah, i need to add Healing Runes to the Total Healing count.

Edited by Sithicus Dias, 20 October 2012 - 07:02 PM.

[Siroso]

Another interesting way of using banners arises when you have a healing shout warrior, and some kind of damage based warrior.
If the damage specced warr can give up one of their skills for the Banner of Tactics, you can pick up the banner and have access to your 3 healing shouts and "Compassionate Banner", which gives a heal of around 1k, plus 5 seconds of regen, every 10 seconds.

Somehow this makes me feel a bit more like a dedicated healer, if that's something you're into.

EDIT: I actually recall that last night the cooldown was shorter than 10 seconds, but I may be imagining things. I do know that with compassionate banner and runes of Dwayna on Mending I was able to provide constant regeneration (at least to myself, with + boon duration).

Edited by Siroso, 20 October 2012 - 10:07 PM.

[Sithicus Dias]

Siroso, on 20 October 2012 - 10:00 PM, said:

Another interesting way of using banners arises when you have a healing shout warrior, and some kind of damage based warrior.
If the damage specced warr can give up one of their skills for the Banner of Tactics, you can pick up the banner and have access to your 3 healing shouts and "Compassionate Banner", which gives a heal of around 1k, plus 5 seconds of regen, every 10 seconds.

Somehow this makes me feel a bit more like a dedicated healer, if that's something you're into.

EDIT: I actually recall that last night the cooldown was shorter than 10 seconds, but I may be imagining things. I do know that with compassionate banner and runes of Dwayna on Mending I was able to provide constant regeneration (at least to myself, with + boon duration).

That's a very good point, plus the Tactics Banner gives Boon duration AND some Healing Power, which is great for everyone I can understand very much where you're coming from with Vigorous Shouts about feeling like a dedicated healer, but at the end of the day you still sit in melee and hit things. This is one of the reasons I recommend the Banner build for people who don't want to feel like a healer. A friend of mine who usually runs the Banner build alongside me, while I run Vigorous Shouts, he still crits 17k on Hundred Blades.

The more I learn about Warrior Support options, the more I realise that it's overwhelmingly well-designed, since you can use the Banner build (which is invariably a "half-measure" in healing terms), and still bring a really important role to the team

[Siroso]

I did have one question about doing that - if your friend has the banner regen trait and you pick up the banner, does it still grant permanent regen? Never had a chance to try, and just wanted to check. (Not that it really matters for anything, just curious).

[Sithicus Dias]

Siroso, on 21 October 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

I did have one question about doing that - if your friend has the banner regen trait and you pick up the banner, does it still grant permanent regen? Never had a chance to try, and just wanted to check. (Not that it really matters for anything, just curious).

Yeah it does, once the banner is created by the player, the buffs it provides remain as long as the banner does, which is pretty nice because you can get ranged allies to re-arrange them for you if an encounter starts moving around a lot.

[nosscire]

Sithicus Dias, on 20 October 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

Ok i'm sorry but Battle Standard really isn't that good. First of all, the Rez is a one time thing, it doesn't keep renewing, nor does the stability. As for the Might and Fury, you will never exceed 5 stacks of the former, and then the Fury is there form FGJ anyway. Signet gives you 5 stacks of might, and Fury, and Swiftness, like the standard does. With Tactics you get 39 seconds of it, and then after waiting 21 more seconds you can use it again (except if you have Signet Mastery when you wait 9 second instead). I'm not seeing the appeal for BS as it gives you similar stats and has a disastrous cooldown.

Don't get me wrong, BS rez is useful sometimes, but it shouldn't be the Elite of choice.

Isn't the big difference here that the signet only buffs YOU, while the banners also buffs all allies?
Or am I way wrong here?

[Sithicus Dias]

nosscire, on 21 October 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Isn't the big difference here that the signet only buffs YOU, while the banners also buffs all allies?
Or am I way wrong here?

You're correct, but the cooldown on BS is terrible. Whereas with 30 Tactics you can have 39 seconds of the buffs every 60 seconds, whereas with the Banner, it doesn't last long. and you wait 240 seconds (or 192 with traited). BS is good if you're more support-y, but if you're pushing an offensive build, you'd want to give yourself that boost all the time.

Also it's worth nothing that if you have Tactics at 30 (30% boon duration), then another 15% from runes and Signet Mastery, as well as Tactics banner (in total 55% boon duration), that's a 1.5 second downtime on Signet of Rage, which is pretty powerful really...

I get that BS is situational, i always take it for particularly nasty boss fights, but that's because it can rez.

Sithicus Dias, on 21 October 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

You're correct, but the cooldown on BS is terrible. Whereas with 30 Tactics you can have 39 seconds of the buffs from Rage every 60 seconds, whereas with the Banner, it doesn't last long. and you wait 240 seconds (or 192 with traited). BS is good if you're more support-y, but if you're pushing an offensive build, you'd want to give yourself that boost all the time.

Also it's worth nothing that if you have Tactics at 30 (30% boon duration), then another 15% from runes and Signet Mastery, as well as Tactics banner (in total 55% boon duration), that's a 1.5 second downtime on Signet of Rage, which is pretty powerful really...

I get that BS is situational, i always take it for particularly nasty boss fights, but that's because it can rez.

[Anam Itheoir]

Sithicus Dias, on 21 October 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

You're correct, but the cooldown on BS is terrible. Whereas with 30 Tactics you can have 39 seconds of the buffs every 60 seconds, whereas with the Banner, it doesn't last long. and you wait 240 seconds (or 192 with traited). BS is good if you're more support-y, but if you're pushing an offensive build, you'd want to give yourself that boost all the time.

Also it's worth nothing that if you have Tactics at 30 (30% boon duration), then another 15% from runes and Signet Mastery, as well as Tactics banner (in total 55% boon duration), that's a 1.5 second downtime on Signet of Rage, which is pretty powerful really...

I get that BS is situational, i always take it for particularly nasty boss fights, but that's because it can rez.

You are overstating the negative, and completely missing the point of Battle Standard.  It buffs 5 people every time it's up.  SoR is a personal buff, and a great questing and pvp buff.  However for support Battle Standard crushes SoR.  You keep mentioning 192 with traited.  Why would you take it without traiting.  If you are bringing more than 1 banner, spending 10 points in buffing them should always be done.

Battle Standards Uptimes is 45 seconds I believe this means the cooldown of Battle standard is not 192 seconds but 147 seconds.  So every two minutes, essentially, you have 5 guys buffed instead of every 42 seconds of personal buffs.  I do agree that if you aren't taking the 10 points for Battles standard there is no reason to take Battle Standard, but SoR is not the "king" of Elites.

[Venereus]

How about you do the math for 2 shouts (SIO, FGJ) + Banner of Tactics (#2 skill gives Regen too)? I sometimes consider taking at least one banner in WvW so I can spam AoE swiftness without having to equip a Horn (it's awful if you run into a surprise fight).

[Cowmonaut]

Sithicus Dias, on 20 October 2012 - 04:11 PM, said:

Ok i'm sorry but Battle Standard really isn't that good. First of all, the Rez is a one time thing, it doesn't keep renewing, nor does the stability. As for the Might and Fury, you will never exceed 5 stacks of the former, and then the Fury is there form FGJ anyway. Signet gives you 5 stacks of might, and Fury, and Swiftness, like the standard does. With Tactics you get 39 seconds of it, and then after waiting 21 more seconds you can use it again (except if you have Signet Mastery when you wait 9 second instead). I'm not seeing the appeal for BS as it gives you similar stats and has a disastrous cooldown.

Don't get me wrong, BS rez is useful sometimes, but it shouldn't be the Elite of choice.

Personally I disagree here.  That one-time Rez is worth the Elite slot to me when I'm in a Dungeon.  With all the buffs from Combo fields and Allies, I'm usually sitting on ~12 Might anyways.  My Bleeds are ticking over for ~120 and I'm hitting for over ~1500 while those all tick over.  Adding a few more stacks of Might isn't going to change things considerably for me since there's already a high level of damage output from myself and my group.

But if lag strikes or people screw up, being able to clean up from a wipe is priceless.  WvW and PvE....  things are different, though in PvE a BS can help with Events in areas where there aren't a lot of players (instant rez for NPCs).  For Dungeons though, I think it hurts the team to be bringing a Signet of Rage.  It doesn't contribute as much as the alternative, huge CD included.

[Sithicus Dias]

Venereus, on 22 October 2012 - 04:14 PM, said:

How about you do the math for 2 shouts (SIO, FGJ) + Banner of Tactics (#2 skill gives Regen too)? I sometimes consider taking at least one banner in WvW so I can spam AoE swiftness without having to equip a Horn (it's awful if you run into a surprise fight).

Yes i've been meaning to add another data series for two shouts, will have it incoming very soon!

[beadnbutter32]

I am always glad to see people put some effort into measuring and objectifying things like healing in this game, but I disagree with the conclusions.

I have tried this type of build and did not find it very practical or useful in terms of healing.

Anet did such a bang up job trying to prevent the holy trinity by severely nerfing any and all healing in the game, that this build is simply not effective.

Even if one could pop shouts every second, for a warrior with 22K HP, 1600 point  (7%) heals are insignificant against the typical dungeon mob damage rates.

Investing in healing simply penalizes you by avoiding add stats that will benefit your survival, power, toughness and condition removal/reduction.

A three shout warrior build mostly benefits from the condition removal and short term might and fury buffs.

The elite banner is the only significant warrior dungeon support skill as it can revive multiple downed players quickly, the other buffs it gives are insignificant in my opinion.

Edited by beadnbutter32, 26 October 2012 - 01:10 PM.

[Anam Itheoir]

beadnbutter32, on 26 October 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

I am always glad to see people put some effort into measuring and objectifying things like healing in this game, but I disagree with the conclusions.

I have tried this type of build and did not find it very practical or useful in terms of healing.

Anet did such a bang up job trying to prevent the holy trinity by severely nerfing any and all healing in the game, that this build is simply not effective.

Even if one could pop shouts every second, for a warrior with 22K HP, 1600 point  (7%) heals are insignificant against the typical dungeon mob damage rates.

Investing in healing simply penalizes you by avoiding add stats that will benefit your survival, power, toughness and condition removal/reduction.

A three shout warrior build mostly benefits from the condition removal and short term might and fury buffs.

The elite banner is the only significant warrior dungeon support skill as it can revive multiple downed players quickly, the other buffs it gives are insignificant in my opinion.

If 8k healing in a span of 2 seconds in the midst of a battle while doing damage is considered insignificant, than you haven't done a single explorable mode except maybe TA.  Shout healing combined with other forms of support from boon buffing, regeneration, debuffing, stuns, immobilize and teamwork is very significant.  Banners are huge support buffs, Physical Utilities offer a great amount of control, and shout heals combined with a good group is absolutely amazing.  Now if you are running shouts with a bunch of ninnies who don't dodge, try to face tank every boss, and all of them play glass cannon than yes it's insignificant.

I think it's less about the build, and more about the group and your playstyle that is insignificant.

[Sithicus Dias]

beadnbutter32, on 26 October 2012 - 01:09 PM, said:

Even if one could pop shouts every second, for a warrior with 22K HP, 1600 point  (7%) heals are insignificant against the typical dungeon mob damage rates.

Shouts affect nearby allies as well, so it's not like it's a self-survival gimmick build. In addition to this, as Anam has pointed out, Banners offer a lot of support for the team.

The beauty of this build comes out in situations where you're clinging on for dear life. Your health is low, you're heal skill is about to come off cooldown, you pop your shouts, enter shield stance etc. All the while you're probably taking the flak for the rest of your team. I seem to find running in first and being in melee range gets me a lot of enemy aggro.

Also, you say that by getting healing I sacrifice Toughness, this is largely untrue. I have Cleric's Gear, Healing is the Major stat, Toughness is a minor stat, so it's not as if i'm sacrificing it really. Plus, yes I do sacrifice some damage, but that's kind of the idea with this build, Offensive and Defensive stats are mutually exclusive, you cannot have both in extremes, one has to suffer. I hear a lot of weak justification for Berserker Warriors too, but at the end of the day, a dead DPS does no DPS. Seriously though, i've completed a fair few runs in Arah now, and there are countless times where I'm fairly certain providing team healing has prevented multiple downs, and saved several fights from being wipes. My confidence in this build just continues to grow the more I test it out.

However, don't let this come across as me attacking you, i'm interested in everyone's opinion, I started these threads to generate discussion, and sharing of ideas. I'd love to hear any suggestions. Also i'd urge you to give this build more of a chance

[Sithicus Dias]

Hey guys, I added in data to show the effect of 2 Shouts vs Banners across mutliple levels of healing power. I added in some text and some conclusions in the main post, but i'll summarize the findings here:

• At HP = 0, Banners are roughly equal to 2x Shouts (with Lung Capacity).
  
• At HP = "max" Banners are roughly 10.5% more effective than 2x Shouts.
  
• As such, with HP = 0, for the damage dealing supports in which I recommended Banners, you could swap to VS and use FGJ and SIO if you wanted, with very little difference between the two.

[Tyrant Crimson]

How come no-one has 5-starred this yet?

[NachyoChez]

Sith,
Thank you so much for this work.  It's been invaluable in making my guild stop laughing at my war for wearing 'Guardian gear' (ie cleric's).

If I might as a favor though?  In WvW OMM's power is lessened DRASTICALLY; would it be possible to see the math with FM as the third heal instead?  I know it's a question of utility Vs. healing, but I'd like to know how BIG that difference is!

Thanks!

[Sithicus Dias]

NachyoChez, on 29 October 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

Sith,
Thank you so much for this work.  It's been invaluable in making my guild stop laughing at my war for wearing 'Guardian gear' (ie cleric's).

If I might as a favor though?  In WvW OMM's power is lessened DRASTICALLY; would it be possible to see the math with FM as the third heal instead?  I know it's a question of utility Vs. healing, but I'd like to know how BIG that difference is!

Thanks!

Firstly, i'm glad nobody is laughing at you anymore

Secondly, yes, FM is great in WvW, i'll add a data series called "WvW" which will include FGJ/SIO and then FM, will try and get it done tonight Also, as you mention WvW, do you think the talent "Shrug it Off" might be more effective than Lung Capacity?

This post has been heavily biased in favour of PvE, so i'll try and incorporate a WvW element in to it (this build doesn't strike me as having any use in sPvP).

Edited by Sithicus Dias, 30 October 2012 - 09:25 AM.

[NachyoChez]

Sithicus Dias, on 30 October 2012 - 09:23 AM, said:

Firstly, i'm glad nobody is laughing at you anymore

Secondly, yes, FM is great in WvW, i'll add a data series called "WvW" which will include FGJ/SIO and then FM, will try and get it done tonight Also, as you mention WvW, do you think the talent "Shrug it Off" might be more effective than Lung Capacity?

This post has been heavily biased in favour of PvE, so i'll try and incorporate a WvW element in to it (this build doesn't strike me as having any use in sPvP).

I'm not the most experienced in WvW, just starting really.  But I don't see the talent being as great because it's harder to control, and SIO should be a shout you carry anyway.  Given the ridiculous CD on FM it makes more sense to get that lowered and have more burst healing on command than to have a possible extra shout.  My 2 copper anyway; I'm sure your testing will shine a better light on it!

[Sithicus Dias]

Sorry for the delay on the latest addition, been quite busy this week, since it's friday i'll think of some other ideas and update the post tonight!

[Sithicus Dias]

I added in a data series considering the use of Fear Me as well, generally this just means you get an extra 2 shouts across the 100 second period, nevertheless this series shows that it too is always slightly better than banners, but only slightly.

[NachyoChez]

Sithicus Dias, on 02 November 2012 - 07:10 PM, said:

I added in a data series considering the use of Fear Me as well, generally this just means you get an extra 2 shouts across the 100 second period, nevertheless this series shows that it too is always slightly better than banners, but only slightly.

Thanks so much for working all of that out!

Just want to make sure I'm reading it right:  In a short (>25 seconds) burst-battle, like stepping into the middle of an accidental zerg, FM is just as powerful as as OMM.  the longer the battle goes, the less effective it becomes (not counting the massive damage mitigation it triggered), but it usually only trails ~2k behind (basically, over the course of an extended fight you have 1 less shout cast, in optimal conditions).

Is that the gist?

[Sithicus Dias]

Over the course of an extended fight, you have 3 less shout casts. Over 100 seconds, Lung Capacity with FGJ, SIO and OMM gives 17 casts, with FM instead of OMM you get 14.

But you're right essentially, the longer cooldown of FM just means you will use 1 of your shouts less frequently, and as such it won't quite heal as much. It may be easier to start thinking of Health per Second, so divide the healing done over 100 seconds, by 100, and compare that statistic between date serials.

[Sithicus Dias]

Added a graph in the "Convergence" data sheet to demonstrate the ratio of Healing from 3x Shouts and 2x Shouts : Banners, over the course of the 100 second fight. The logarithmic scale allows you to see how 2x Shouts is roughly as effective (although slightly more so) than Banners. It's an interesting curve, as it shows how each "pulse" of healing from shouts buffs the curve a little, almost like a Smoothing Capacitor curve of voltage against time...

[Kiroshy]

Pretty good topic, in your opinion is better shrug it off or lung capacity ? And at the moment.. what is the best rune for shout healer ? Soldier ? I am running with Sigil of Water at Mace/ Sigil of Hydromancy at Shield and Sigil of Healing( stack 250 healing when 25 stacks are on ) what you think about the sigils ? thank you the topic helps me alot !

Your build is wonderful but you make a wrong decision..  Shield is not better than Warhorn because Warhorn gives swiftness and removes some condition in area without cap of people reach and the last skill of warhorn can be the difference when you talk about dodges that are very important in the WvW and the weakness in area is OP ..

Edited by Kiroshy, 04 November 2012 - 06:51 PM.

[Sithicus Dias]

Thanks.

Lung Capacity is better, here is why. While technically Shrug it Off *can* heal more, that can only occur if your extra SIO is proc'd every 30 seconds without fail, so if you're in a not very condition heavy area it sort of goes to waste. Lung Capacity however is very reliable since it just reduces Shout cooldowns.

Soldier is the best rune for Shout Healing, the condition removal is incredibly useful to you and your allies. There aren't many runes that directly augment a "type" of skill in the way Soldier does, so it's very unique in that respect.

Well, the weapon choices are completely open to suggestion, there is no "this weapon is better than this weapon" because situations change, nothing is set in stone. Warhorn is quite nice in that you could take "Quick Breathing" and convert some conditions into Boons. But, i firmly believe that you can spec your traits, and use one set of gear to be versatile for most situations. So i use a shield, allow me to justify my choice:

• Shields provide you extra defense, making you more survivable.
  
• Shield Master gives you a further 90 Toughness for free, which is a significant bonus (equivalent to the amount of Toughness you would get from a "Knight's" Weapon)
  
• Shield Bash gives you a Stun, which is a useful interrupt.
  
• Shield Stance equates to 3 seconds of absolute Invulnerability (except to conditions). When used correctly you can mitigate very powerful/a barrage of attacks, giving you time to escape a dangerous situation.
  
• Traiting "Missile Deflection" in Defense allows you to reflect missiles when blocking (also applies to Mace block), which is useful against powerful ranged attackers (including of course, Bosses).

For my uses, I prefer Shield as my weapon of choice, I occasionally do use Warhorn, but not that regularly. Also, you say Warhorn removes some conditions, which is unequivocally true. However it removes Crippled, Chilled and Immobilize, three of the most harmless conditions in the game (remember I'm talking PvE here), if it cured Poison and Bleed, that would be a completely different story. In addition to this, if you are using Soldier Runes, you probably have enough condition removal anyway.

Edited by Sithicus Dias, 05 November 2012 - 07:38 PM.

[Brand]

I just posted this on the Suggestions forum in the GW2 website. I think this is an awesome idea for all warriors, especially shout warriors, and a huge shout out to the Paragon class of GW1 (If you think so too, please reply posting your approval of it)

https://forum-en.gui...n-Racial-Skills

[Sithicus Dias]

Interesting idea, certainly an Elite Shout would ascend Vigorous Shouts into a whole other League.

[Kiroshy]

Sithicus Dias, on 05 November 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

Thanks.

Lung Capacity is better, here is why. While technically Shrug it Off *can* heal more, that can only occur if your extra SIO is proc'd every 30 seconds without fail, so if you're in a not very condition heavy area it sort of goes to waste. Lung Capacity however is very reliable since it just reduces Shout cooldowns.

Soldier is the best rune for Shout Healing, the condition removal is incredibly useful to you and your allies. There aren't many runes that directly augment a "type" of skill in the way Soldier does, so it's very unique in that respect.

Well, the weapon choices are completely open to suggestion, there is no "this weapon is better than this weapon" because situations change, nothing is set in stone. Warhorn is quite nice in that you could take "Quick Breathing" and convert some conditions into Boons. But, i firmly believe that you can spec your traits, and use one set of gear to be versatile for most situations. So i use a shield, allow me to justify my choice:

• Shields provide you extra defense, making you more survivable.
  
• Shield Master gives you a further 90 Toughness for free, which is a significant bonus (equivalent to the amount of Toughness you would get from a "Knight's" Weapon)
  
• Shield Bash gives you a Stun, which is a useful interrupt.
  
• Shield Stance equates to 3 seconds of absolute Invulnerability (except to conditions). When used correctly you can mitigate very powerful/a barrage of attacks, giving you time to escape a dangerous situation.
  
• Traiting "Missile Deflection" in Defense allows you to reflect missiles when blocking (also applies to Mace block), which is useful against powerful ranged attackers (including of course, Bosses).

For my uses, I prefer Shield as my weapon of choice, I occasionally do use Warhorn, but not that regularly. Also, you say Warhorn removes some conditions, which is unequivocally true. However it removes Crippled, Chilled and Immobilize, three of the most harmless conditions in the game (remember I'm talking PvE here), if it cured Poison and Bleed, that would be a completely different story. In addition to this, if you are using Soldier Runes, you probably have enough condition removal anyway.

Right, I will try to explain you my build and if you can help me I have some questions yet.
http://gw2skills.net...yymlLLZWrGGbMBB

As you can see in the link, my build is a CC/Support. The focus of my build is WvW so I think that is very important have 2 shouts. However, my first doubt is '' Fear me '' .. it can be a OP utility if I enter in the zerg and use this but On my Mark with my trait that reduce colldown will be better for wvw or no ? I will heal 2000~2500 more with OMK but with Fear I can just give a advantage to my zerg.. tell me what you think about this..

The second thing is the runes, I know that to support builds is difficult to find a good rune, in my opinion Healing Signet with the recharge 20% faster can be pretty good and with rune of dwayana it sounds more nice.. I will get 7 seconds of regeneration in AOE and I tested it.. the regeneration is 304 per second it will be 2128 heal when I use my healing signet.. what you think about this ? maybe soldier is better? I am thinking about soldier but I am certain that soldier don't reach allies, just the user of the shouts ): so it is a condition removal for you.
Healing surge is pretty nice but it have a long colldown what is a bad thing in WvW.. when you do the maths Mending x Healing Signet with the recharge faster you can see:
Healing Signet in 100 seconds : 100/16 = 6.25 .. atm with my healing power it heals 4575 x 6.25 = 28593,75
Mending in 100 seconds : 100/25 = 4 .. atm with my healing power it heals 6.815 and remove 8 conditions( 100 sec ) = 27260.

I will probably swap the weapons when I need, for example, when I need go to one place more faster I just swap to sword and warhorn but in the war I will keep the Mace/Shield.

do you recommend something to sigils ?

Ty.