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Supportive Warrior Builds Part II [Numerical Analysis]

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#61 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 04:25 PM

View PostKiroshy, on 07 November 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

The focus of my build is WvW so I think that is very important have 2 shouts. However, my first doubt is '' Fear me ''

Fear Me is great for messing up a whole zerg of people, but given how WvW fights can be shortlived, considering healing done over 100 seconds becomes a lot less relevant. I mean you're just as likely to be defeated before your shouts even cooldown, as you are to be sustainable. OMM would give you more healing, but it only affects a single person, so for WvW I'd take Fear Me. On the google spreadsheet you can see a data series considering a WvW idea build, and how it compares to other healing models.


View PostKiroshy, on 07 November 2012 - 04:03 PM, said:

The second thing is the runes, I know that to support builds is difficult to find a good rune, in my opinion Healing Signet with the recharge 20% faster can be pretty good and with rune of dwayana it sounds more nice.. I will get 7 seconds of regeneration in AOE and I tested it.. the regeneration is 304 per second it will be 2128 heal when I use my healing signet.. what you think about this ? maybe soldier is better? I am thinking about soldier but I am certain that soldier don't reach allies, just the user of the shouts ): so it is a condition removal for you.

As for Runes, Soldier runes DO clear up conditions from your allies too. If you consider how your Shout Heals affect other allies, so too does the condition removal. I watch the party health bars when i use the shouts, and i see conditions disappear off allies. So unless i've been experiencing an abnormal amount of coincidences, Soldier runes apply to allies too.

Healing Signet is nice for WvW, because you have to consider (like i mentioned before) fights could be very short lived, and so you might get to use 3 healing signets, where otherwise you might only get 1 or 2 of the other skills used. Plus the application of regeneration is also nice for the same reason Fear Me is nice. The more people you "influence" with your skills (i.e fearing a Zerg, or healing your own Zerg) the better. Your ability to affect whole groups around you is a pivotal quality indeed.

As for Sigils, that's a tough call. You don't have a very DPS oriented build, perhaps you could go for Sigil of Paralyzation, since you could Earth Shaker a whole Zerg, and instead of a 2 second stun it would be a 2.3 second stun, which can be quite a difference. But i don't know, Sigils are difficult because there are so many, and they flourish in different environments.

#62 beadnbutter32

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 01:58 PM

View PostAnam Itheoir, on 26 October 2012 - 03:21 PM, said:

you haven't done a single explorable mode except maybe TA.
you are running shouts with a bunch of ninnies who don't dodge, try to face tank every boss, and all of them play glass cannon than yes it's insignificant.
Your playstyle that is insignificant.
Sticks and stones my friend.

We can throw out personal anecdotal situations that support our views ad nauseum,

But I stand by my observations, the condition removal is far more valuable more often as a support tool than the healing portion.

#63 beadnbutter32

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 02:58 PM

View PostSithicus Dias, on 26 October 2012 - 05:11 PM, said:

However, don't let this come across as me attacking you, i'm interested in everyone's opinion, I started these threads to generate discussion, and sharing of ideas. I'd love to hear any suggestions. Also i'd urge you to give this build more of a chance :)

I started out running this type of build quite some time ago, including the stacking of health stats. When I did run full health stats, I just did not see any significant difference in team survivability.  I can see where these relatively small health infusions might save someone very low in health but most of time the general speed of combat precludes playing whack a mole with peoples health bars.  Maybe this can work for some players, but I have tried it and did not find success with the healing aspect of it.

I admit I am not an elite player. I find it difficult to survive as a melee type without stacking toughness. Giving up toughness for health saw my survivability go south.

I took out the health stats and went back to stacking maximum toughness and continue to run with this build.

I contribute with condition removal and the other boons provided to the group via the shouts and banner. I think that is more than enough to justify using the 3 shouts and banner build.

#64 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 03:32 PM

Thanks for the feedback. Stacking Healing definitely isn't for everyone, you're right. I'm still trying to pinpoint on just the perfect amount of Healing Power before it gets too far into diminishing returns to be worthwhile. You should check out a very active thread started by a friend of mine, it details a high damage support build using Greatsword, affectionately named Sonic Boon, see it here: http://www.guildwars...out-greatsword/

#65 Brand

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 06:03 PM

View Postbeadnbutter32, on 22 November 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Sticks and stones my friend.

We can throw out personal anecdotal situations that support our views ad nauseum,

But I stand by my observations, the condition removal is far more valuable more often as a support tool than the healing portion.
I would like to point out that you edited parts of his entire piece and made it sound a lot more hostile, etc. He was not making any personal remarks against you, he was merely saying that if the things he said WERE the case (Which they might not be) then the group and the playstyle of the player become the insignificant points that need to be reworked.

Regardless, it should be made very clear that if a person does not find a build optimal, it is most likely because his or her playstyle differs from that needed in the build. You should start off with a weapon you love and a trait line you love, find a build that incorporates both and use that build.

No amount of statistics, theory crafting, or number crunching is going to make you enjoy or be useful with a build that requires a playstyle you aren't familiar with.

I had the same issues with healing as you do, or rather I felt I would do better as damage. Thus Sithicus and I worked together to form a build that I later modeled into Sonic Boon (Seen above in Sithicus' comment <3). I'm used to the Paladin-esque playstyle, where I destroy the enemy head on, granting buffs to myself and allies and giving off some decent heals. Sonic Boon does that for me like no other build, so you should very much find a build that is perfect for you (Or better yet, make your own!). Just remember that if the build isn't optimal, it's not really something you want to use.

The goal is an optimal build that fits your playstyle.

That's my two copper on the subject at hand, just find something you like (Condition removal) and a weapon you enjoy and find a way for them to work together in amazing optimal synergy! :D (Though at this point the playstyle you want might be in another class; Guardian)

Edited by Brand, 22 November 2012 - 06:04 PM.


#66 dawdler

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Posted 22 November 2012 - 09:18 PM

View Postbeadnbutter32, on 22 November 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

I find it difficult to survive as a melee type without stacking toughness. Giving up toughness for health saw my survivability go south.
I'll agree with this. My original defensive build had an buttload of health (I recall being up to 34K in WvW with shitty gear), but it sort gave up other parts. I had a mix of minor cleric and major valkyrie gear to stack both health and some healing but it just lost so much offensive strength. It was boring to fight with and the HP never really gave much because it went down fast. I didnt have much toughness at all, it was basicly what traits gave me (and I never fully specced into the toughness line).

Instead I opted for a mix of knights and berserker (same armour build as in the axe/mace thread) and landed at a comfortable 60% crit chance with about 1700 toughness and 23K health. It felt better. More than twice the offensive power (since it crits often with far greater damage than the health build) at very little percieved survivability difference, despite ignoring healing power.

#67 Rhoellan Alts

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 03:36 PM

Been following this thread for awhile and secretly applying some of the suggestions listed within.  That said; I wasn't impressed overall with the shouts healing and didn't see a large increase when using Clerics (with extra healing gear).   Yes, there was increased healing, but it wasn't enough to make or break a fight.   Like another poster mentioned, when you have 22-23k hps and you use 3 shouts, have all your top traits your top traits centered around shouts and then use healing gear (losing significant DPS) and then getting a 1,600-1,800 pt heal X3 (across nearby members, plus condition removal) is kind of meh.

My goal was to have a ranged warrior that could help support and while this does ok, it is sad that this is probably the warrior's best healing version.   In other words, I think this thread is great and I appreciate all the work that has went into it, but I guess my question would be; is it worth it and do you enjoy it?  If so, maybe I am doing something wrong...

#68 Brand

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 06:32 PM

View PostRhoellan Alts, on 23 November 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

then getting a 1,600-1,800 pt heal X3 (across nearby members, plus condition removal) is kind of meh.
Lets say your party contains a Warrior, a Thief, a Necromancer, a Guardian and a Mesmer. At base health values (Probably aren't going to change much except a little for the warrior and some for the guardian) that's 18,372 + 18,372 + 15,082 + 10,805 + 10,805 = 73,436. Now take the shouts, with Sithicus' build you get ~2,530 heals (with max HP), multiply that by 3 and you get ~7,589. Hit all of your group members and that turns into 37,945. In terms of entire group heals, you are healing OVER 50% group health, every ~22 seconds. Not only that, but ~7,589 is a greater healing amount than almost all healing skills game wide, and on a mere 20 second CD (Shorter than all heals except a traited signet).

Now obviously you aren't going to get that Max HP heal, it has too many factors. However, you can easily get about 1400 HP (All gear, traits, food, and sigil of life). This would give you around 2,300 shout heals (How you were only getting to 1600-1800 I have no idea) now multiply that by 15 (3x5) and you get 34500 heals for the whole group, which is still nearly 50%. Take your 1800 and you get 27000 heals, still about a third!

Add in the fact that your shouts still give 3 stacks of might and fury, remove 4 conditions, and grant a 5% damage buff for the whole group constantly.

3 skills that can heal half your party's health, remove 4 conditions, and buff the group EVERY ~22 seconds?! In most games I've played that would be considered GOOD even if you do have to sacrifice 90% of your damage to get there.

Fun? Maybe not for all, you really have to have that healer/tank mindset. If you're that worried about your own personal dps, perhaps you should check out Sonic Boon.

Hope this answers your question; Is it worth it?
As for if he enjoys it, obviously he does or he wouldn't run the build and put all this work into it. Just because he enjoys it doesn't make it fun, though. You need to find what works for you, not other people. That's the beauty of Guild Wars, as long as your build is optimal in what it does, you can run ANYTHING.

Edited by Brand, 23 November 2012 - 06:33 PM.


#69 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 23 November 2012 - 07:31 PM

View PostRhoellan Alts, on 23 November 2012 - 03:36 PM, said:

My goal was to have a ranged warrior that could help support and while this does ok, it is sad that this is probably the warrior's best healing version.   In other words, I think this thread is great and I appreciate all the work that has went into it, but I guess my question would be; is it worth it and do you enjoy it?  If so, maybe I am doing something wrong...

Brand has pretty much summed up the general points I'd cover in response to your concerns. Although this IS the warrior's best healing version, it stomps Regeneration completely. However i appreciate that perhaps you didn't mean to imply Warrior's have better mechanisms of healing at their disposal.

As brand says though, if you're only getting 1600-1800 then you are lacking some of the stats to be most effective. DPS does get sacrificed here yes, sadly that is the unavoidable nature of stat distribution across armour pieces. Generally speaking whatever you build, your armour should have Toughness on it (whether that be Knights, Cleric's or Apothecary's etc), what you do with the other 2 stats on armour is up to you, but in all situations, if one of those other 2 stats is defensive, then you can say farewell to a serious damage build. For example, generally speaking the difference between Knights and Clerics is Precision. You basically have an abysmally low crit chance running Cleric's build, so some of your damage goes out the window there, as well as effectively running an "on crit" Sigil too. This 3 stat distribution for armour does somewhat force you to bias damage or defense though, which is nice because otherwise you'd get a lot of messy compromises therein.

But yes, if you don't enjoy it, try Sonic Boon.

#70 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 06:35 PM

Going to revamp the OP, there's a lot of gratuitous information, I want to condense it down and make it more readable, going to think of some additional things to put in the spreadsheet too. Watch this space...

#71 zp3dd4

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 08:14 PM

I've been playing with shouts as well recently. A couple thoughts:

- The tactics tree is mostly used for increasing boon duration, even 20 pt's into this tree would mean perma fury, swiftness and might with signet of rage, warhorn & for great justice
- Condition removal is much more important in WvW than healing, not being able to break an immobilize means death no matter how much HP you have
- As a warrior, toughness becomes much more important than vitality, especially with strong condition removal
- If you have permafury, you can skip the precision tree and still have around 50 - 60% crit chance

Currently i'm running:
Gear: Knights armor + soldier runes, berserker trinkets
Weaons: Axe + Warhorn, Greatsword
Optional: rifle, longbow

Traits: 20 (Berserker Power, Forceful GS) /0/0/30(Leg Specialist,Shorter Shouts,Shouts heal)/20(Signet reduction, Mobile strikes)
Skills: Mending, Shake it off, for great justice, bull's charge/frenzy/endure pain/balanced stance

Reasoning for traits:
The power trait is mostly to ensure that I maximize damage from my GS. The GS is really good in WvW, since it offers: 1 burst (100b, it's rooted and takes experience to use properly, however if it lands it's devastating), 2 AOE (throw sword + whirlwind) and 1 gap closer. Also, with mobile strikes whirlwind will break immobilizes.

The tactics trait is mostly used for the improved boon duration to keep up perma fury and swiftness (might is a small bonus on top). The heal does sometimes make the difference between downing and getting away. I'm still thinking if it would be better invested in more discipline trait. Also leg specialist is a really, really good trait to catch up to people. With both the cripple on GS and axe, people are slowed for around 8sec and immobilized for 2, at which point axe cripple should have come off CD again.

The disciplines is again to improve damage and to reduce the CD of signet of rage and for mobile strikes.

Reasoning for skills:
mending, shake it off and for great justice remove a total of 4 conditions on a 16-20 sec CD. combined with mobile strikes, that's potentially 5.
The last one is situational: If I'm roaming, bull's charge is good to hold people and run away. If i have to run into a keep, balanced stance is important. If I have to fight in a zerg, endure pain is essential. Sometimes I take frenzy just for fun.
Signet of Rage, easily best elite for warrior.

Future improvements:
Considering looking into a: 20/20/0/10/20/, 20/25/0/10/15 or 20/0/0/20/30 build

Edited by zp3dd4, 30 November 2012 - 08:17 PM.


#72 Brand

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Posted 30 November 2012 - 11:26 PM

View Postzp3dd4, on 30 November 2012 - 08:14 PM, said:

Traits: 20 (Berserker Power, Forceful GS) /0/0/30(Leg Specialist,Shorter Shouts,Shouts heal)/20(Signet reduction, Mobile strikes)

- The tactics tree is mostly used for increasing boon duration, even 20 pt's into this tree would mean perma fury, swiftness and might with signet of rage, warhorn & for great justice
- Condition removal is much more important in WvW than healing, not being able to break an immobilize means death no matter how much HP you have
- As a warrior, toughness becomes much more important than vitality, especially with strong condition removal
You mean slashing power?
As for the rest of this stuff, it's all true but not really insights

Other comments: I feel like GS is a waste here, taking away from your axe damage. A build without Forceful Greatsword that uses a Greatsword is frankly just a waste. Running Soldier's runes in a PvE setting with knights gear is a bad idea as I've stressed many times, especially using shield with it, further reducing effectiveness.

Dunno about WvW, but this is a PvE discussion thread :o

#73 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 01:36 AM

View PostBrand, on 30 November 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

You mean slashing power?
As for the rest of this stuff, it's all true but not really insights

Other comments: I feel like GS is a waste here, taking away from your axe damage. A build without Forceful Greatsword that uses a Greatsword is frankly just a waste. Running Soldier's runes in a PvE setting with knights gear is a bad idea as I've stressed many times, especially using shield with it, further reducing effectiveness.

Dunno about WvW, but this is a PvE discussion thread :o

Well to be fair, his idea is pretty good in a WvW setting. You can't really expect to be constantly stood in the thick of things building up your Might Stacks from GS, melee is a nightmare in WvW. He certainly has the right traits to keep moving (and the condition removal IS useful for that setting). In addition, Shield is very standard in PvP setting, because Shield Stance is ridiculously powerful, those 3 seconds of effective invulnerability are absolutely pivotal when you find yourself in a bind. Whether Axe is better for WvW, I don't know, but the mentality you are using to comment on his build is not wholly correct, since it isn't built for Dungeons specifically.

#74 zp3dd4

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 06:58 AM

View PostBrand, on 30 November 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

You mean slashing power?
As for the rest of this stuff, it's all true but not really insights

Other comments: I feel like GS is a waste here, taking away from your axe damage. A build without Forceful Greatsword that uses a Greatsword is frankly just a waste. Running Soldier's runes in a PvE setting with knights gear is a bad idea as I've stressed many times, especially using shield with it, further reducing effectiveness.

Dunno about WvW, but this is a PvE discussion thread :o

Oh yeah, I meant slashing power. I've actually played around with the builds a bit more and I've been actually trying a 10/0/15/30/15 build. As the poster above mentioned, I mostly use this build for WvW not dungeons specifically, although I do have a set of clerics gear lying around for dungeons.

The main goal of my build is to
(1) keep on a target with perma swiftness, mobility options on GS and immobilize on cripples (I do have issues with thief's and some mesmers as their invis means I can't find them sometimes :S). With this build I can outlive almost anyone on 1v1 that I have met sofar (esp. condition bleed builds).
(2) do a lot of damage to a zerg, as in melee in and get out alive.

#75 Lucav

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:34 AM

View PostBrand, on 30 November 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

You mean slashing power?
As for the rest of this stuff, it's all true but not really insights

Other comments: I feel like GS is a waste here, taking away from your axe damage. A build without Forceful Greatsword that uses a Greatsword is frankly just a waste. Running Soldier's runes in a PvE setting with knights gear is a bad idea as I've stressed many times, especially using shield with it, further reducing effectiveness.

Dunno about WvW, but this is a PvE discussion thread :o
why would soldier runes in pve with knights gear be a waste, or a shield for that matter?

#76 Brand

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 10:57 AM

View PostLucav, on 01 December 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

why would soldier runes in pve with knights gear be a waste, or a shield for that matter?
Because you should go full support/tank with those, really. I've said many times why using Soldier's and not being your groups "supporter" is a bad idea (Wasteful). Read through the comments of Sonic Boon and you'll find 100 of my arguments on the subject.

Knight's gear is for DPS, no sense taking defensive runes/weaponry, you should use Cleric's for that (Not to mention defensive things such as soldiers runes can hurt your team)

#77 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:19 AM

Yeah I think what Brand was trying to say is that if you want to run an offensive build, Knights Gear + Soldier Runes is not the most effective way to do so.

View PostBrand, on 30 November 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

Running Soldier's runes in a PvE setting with knights gear is a bad idea as I've stressed many times, especially using shield with it, further reducing effectiveness.

Effectiveness isn't quite the right word, since using Soldier Runes is very beneficial, but not to your ability to deal damage.

#78 Brand

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Posted 01 December 2012 - 11:53 AM

Gah, so technical! >.>

#79 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 08 December 2012 - 01:12 PM

Will Integrate the following into the main post soon:


Done some initial Modelling on Omnomberry Pie.

Chance to proc Omnom = Crit Chance * 0.66 = 0.72*0.66 = 0.4752 = ~48% chance to proc

Given the misleading nature of your skill descriptions, you could run a highly theoretical analysis that HB lasts 3.5 seconds, cools down in 6.5. Your #1 Combo has 3 parts of 0.5 seconds each, totalling 1.5 seconds. As such, you use HB, then 4.333 combos before using HB again. This would lead to the 9 hits of HB, plus 4.333 * 3 hits from combos, totalling 22 hits across the duration of the 9 second period encompassing HB's duration and cooldown.

This however is false. Your skill descriptions are fairly misleading, since in order for the above paragraph to be true, you'd be hitting 2.4 times per second. Maybe in Time Warp you might be, but realistically not a chance in hell. So I timed the rotations, I figured I can time the combo (using the "Lap" function on a stopwatch) many times and average the duration. So I timed from the millisecond I swung my GS, to the millisecond I struck with the final hit.

Results were:

Lap 1   02.35        02.35
Lap 2   02.31        04.66
Lap 3   02.48        07.14
Lap 4   02.41        09.55
Lap 5   02.40        11.95
Lap 6   02.54        14.49
Lap 7   02.37        16.86
Lap 8   02.47        19.33
Lap 9   02.43        21.76
Lap 10  02.42        24.18
Lap 11  02.51        26.69
Lap 12  02.36        29.05

This averages down to around 2.41 seconds for your Combo. I repeated the same thing but this time for timing Hundred Blades, plus combos, until the millisecond that HB has cooled down, the results were:

Lap 1   10.41        10.41
Lap 2   10.27        20.68
Lap 3   10.18        30.86
Lap 4   10.33        41.19
Lap 5   10.35        51.54
Lap 6   10.29     01:01.83
Lap 7   10.18     01:12.01
Lap 8   10.37     01:22.38
Lap 9   10.40     01:32.78
Lap 10  10.40     01:43.18

This averages down to 10.32 seconds for a combo.

Empirically speaking, you can use HB, then 2 full combos, and 2/3 of one more combo before HB has cooled down. As such, this leads to the 9 hits from HB, adding on 3, 3 and 2 for the combo strikes: 9+3+3+2 = 17 hits in 10 seconds. So theoretically, you are striking 1.7 times per second (not actually but for the sake of the model, you are).

So given the crit chance for Sonic Boon is 72% last I checked, the chance to proc an Omnomberry Pie is: 0.66*0.72 = 0.4752 = ~48%

So you proc Omnom on 48% of those 17 hits, which is 8.01 = ~8 procs, you receive 8*325 Health = 2625 Health over 10 seconds, or 262.5 Health Per Second

I have to say, that analysis is better than I thought, 262.5 Health per second is not bad at all, and bear in mind the way I got to that calculation was experimentally, so it's very accurate. It acts as another source of Regeneration. It's a shame it's so Crit Dependent though.

As an extension, I considered Superior Sigil of Blood As well. Which has a 30% chance to proc on a crit, and steals 453 Health, + 1 per 10 healing Power (so it steals  453 + 12 according to your gear spreadsheet).

Your crit is 72%, so the probability of multiple events (Omnom, and Sup Blood) is reduced to: 0.72*0.66 + 0.72*0.3 - (0.72*0.66*0.3) = 0.545 = ~55% to proc some kind of lifesteal. The chance of procing Sup Blood alone is 0.72*0.3 = 0.216, which means in 17 hits you'd proc is 3.6 times (considering the 2 second cooldown, this is still true for 10 seconds, the max procs would be 5), as such, you'd add on roughly 1.7k lifesteal onto the original 2625.

The result would be 2625+1707 = ~433 Health per second. Just imagine combining a Regeneration Source, and Healing Signet, AND Adrenal Health onto THAT... I'm sensing a new build idea...

#80 Quartz

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 07:43 AM

fantastic analysis. It was set out really well and structured like a scientific paper! I have to commend you on your work. It's an interesting depth and excellent analysis. Do you have any more for other classes?

#81 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 08:47 AM

Thanks for your compliments, really appreciate them :) Sadly at this moment I haven't considered other classes, since I play a Warrior significantly more than anything else. All the work on Regeneration however is universal, since it is a Boon, and that Boon has the same mathematical formula behind it no matter who uses it. The only variable is the Healing Power attribute of the person who uses it. Vigorous Shouts is somewhat unique, since I don't think there is another class that exactly replicates Burst Healing via Shouts.

Edited by Sithicus Dias, 12 December 2012 - 08:49 AM.


#82 Nonlinear

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:27 PM

Edited text in blue (Adrenal Heal pulse is 3 sec not 1 sec).

Don't know if this is posted or not but I much prefer banner regen + signet + adrenal heal + dolyrak rune regen to shout healing and I like really like using Dolyak runes for defensive stats and the regen and slotting berserker in all my trinket slots.  With weakness from Hammer 2 + all the regen sources I can face tank a lot of stuff or swap to bow and kite it around while I regen.  I don't pop my signets.  


Signet = 200 hp/sec
Banner = 161 hp/sec
Adrenal Health = 41.6/80/120 hp/sec
Dolyak Regen = 30 hp/sec

With zero bars of Adrenaline I still regen 391 hp/sec
1 Bars = ~432 hp/sec
2 Bars = ~471 hp/sec
3 Bars = ~511 hp/sec

That's 7.8k health in in 20 seconds with zero bars and a little over 10k health in 20 seconds with 3 bars.  No healing gear except Dolyak rune and keeping my adrenaline full for max regen.

Here is some math:

Heal power has no effect on Adrenal Health or the 6pc Dolyak Rune regen (which is flat 30 hp/sec).  30/hp second doesn't seem like a lot at first, but taking each source of regen separately:

The 30hp/sec is like increasing your adrenal heal effect by 90hp over the 3 seconds, that is 70% increase for one bar, 37.5% for two bars and 25% for three bars.

With 3.25% healing applied to signet, adding 30 hp/sec would take 923 healing power.

With 12.5% healing applied to regen, adding 30 hp/sec would take 240 healing power.

-----
Now, ignoring adrenal health (since it gets no benefit from healing gear), that means you get a total of 30 hp/sec split between signet (@ 3.25%) and banner regen (@ 12.5%).

Since banner gets more of the +healing applied it is the bigger number. If the signet contribution is X and the banner contribution is Y, then Y = 30 – X and is always > 0.

Solve for X:

X * 3.25% = Y * 12.5%
X * 0.0325 = Y * 0.125
X * 0.0325 = (30 – X) * 0.125
X = ~190

So basically you are getting 190 +healing from a single rune which is more healing than you get from a healing weapon. I think is worth using the runes over healing gear for defense and using the gear slots for more DPS.

Edited by Nonlinear, 12 December 2012 - 10:16 PM.


#83 Nonlinear

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 06:51 PM

Here's a vid demonstrating the healing banner / hammer / LB build I've using with the dolyak runes.  I can stack 25 might on myself really easy without boon duration while providing 18 stacks of AOE might to allies and 100% uptime on regeneration.  It also provides weakness, snares and interrupts/KDs/defiance removal with hammer and provides blind and immobilize on bow.

YouTube Link

Edited by Nonlinear, 12 December 2012 - 06:52 PM.


#84 Brand

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 09:42 PM

I don't have time to read this whole thing right atm, but I would like to point out that Adrenal Health only heals 120 hps when at full adrenaline. It's 360 every 3 seconds, so 360/3 = 120. Also, if I'm reading this right, you aren't providing any hewals to your team. The VS build is not a self survival gimmick, it's team support. You can heal twice as much and remove tons of conditions with a well placed VS shout heal.

Edited by Brand, 12 December 2012 - 09:44 PM.


#85 Nonlinear

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Posted 12 December 2012 - 10:06 PM

I may have forget to factor out a three but saying VS provides 2x the healing relies on the same laundry list of assumptions and specific scenarios in order to get the most benefit.  Oh, and since I use Shake if Off and trait my shouts to CD 20% I can remove just as many condition as you can, 1 every 20 seconds.

The 30hp is still broken down the same between the banner regen and the healing signet since Adrenal health isn't effected by healing power so it is still like having 190 +healing on those two skills from that one rune.  Just factor the 3 out of the adrenal heal and add up the numbers again:


Signet = 200 hp/sec
Banner = 161 hp/sec
Adrenal Health = 41.6/80/120 hp/sec
Dolyak Regen = 30 hp/sec

With zero bars of Adrenaline I still regen 391 hp/sec
1 Bars = ~432 hp/sec
2 Bars = ~471 hp/sec
3 Bars = ~511 hp/sec

That's still 7.8k health in in 20 seconds with zero bars and a little over 10k health in 20 seconds with 3 bars.  No healing gear except the Dolyak rune and keeping my adrenaline full for max regen.  No need for assumptions like group members being in range to get the benefit.  The group regen is more like a bonus and the banner provides a small stat boost, I consider it a bonus.

Support means more than "burst heal".  I can provide 18 stacks of AOE might, 100% uptime on regen, swiftness between encounters, a small stat boost from my banner, weakness, snare, blind, immobolize, CC, etc. while sacrificing a little DPS.  To me that is plenty of support and I would much rather bring teh 18 might stacks and the banner boost and regen to everyone in my group and kill something faster than shout heal.

Edited by Nonlinear, 12 December 2012 - 10:19 PM.


#86 HoodieB

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 05:57 AM

Hi, i just happened on to this forum when i was looking at builds to maybe improve my current build and was trying to find out if i could regen for more. Great posts by everyone, cleared a lot of confusion for me. I'm not good at crunching numbers and im not sure if my topic belongs here but i have a Banner/Bleed build and was hoping for some feedback to see what everyone thinks.

Currently using:
S/S with Sigil of corruption +10 cnd dmg per kill and Sigil of Agony +10 bleed duration (made with apothecary insignias which has Toughness,Healing, Condition dmg )
Rifle with Sigil of Earth 60% on crit: inflict bleed for 5 sec

Running full set of Apothecary armor with undead runes which is mainly condition damage and toughness, grants 5%of my toughness to condition damage. Using clerics accessories (since apothecary accessories are way too expensive right now)

Traits are:
Arms 25 Deep Cuts, Blademaster
Defense 15 Turtle Defense
Tactics 30 Inspiring Banners, Shrug It Off, Inspiring Battle Standard

Utilities are:
Signet of Healing, Signet of Might, Banner of Strength, Banner of Tactics, Signet of Rage/Battle Standard (They all grant me extra condition damage or healing)

I havent used this build in WvW much and when i did it was with a big group so i dont know how it actually works there.
So with this build i use for PVE can still be somewhat of a tank and deal considerable amount of damage while still support my party.
I can bleed for 100dmg/sec/stack so with 25 stacks that makes it about 2500/sec. But there is no way that i know to keep it there so iI avg around 10-13 stacks of bleed till i use flurry which can put me to 25. Still i think at 10-13 stacks which is like 1000-1300 dmg/sec  PLUS I'm hitting for about 5-700 non crit regular damage makes me able to dish out around 1500-2000 damage/sec.(might be wrong as i haven't really timed the sword swings). My banners regens about 250 per tick and i have my healing signet to give me a secondary regen. If i do get knocked away i can use my rifle to keep adding bleed instead of running back while the bleed dies. The number 2 skill on the sword also helps me get back and continue adding the bleed damage as well.

Well whoever reads this i hope im not wasting your time but i do appreciate some feedback on this build =p

Thanks

Edited by HoodieB, 13 December 2012 - 07:58 AM.


#87 MrCats

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Posted 13 December 2012 - 12:57 PM

View PostHoodieB, on 13 December 2012 - 05:57 AM, said:

snip

Omnomberry Pies.

#88 Sithicus Dias

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Posted 15 March 2013 - 09:07 AM

I've stopped updating this thread, mainly because I don't feel there's anything important to discover, I really just wanted to test the concept, I tried it extensively and decided I didn't want to carry on.

However, if you have queries do feel free to PM me, I'm always happy to discuss builds :)




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