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WvW Solo Roamer + Scouting Build Discussion


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#1 Kutsus

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:07 AM

Since the premise of this build is a bit different than what I offered in the S/D thread, this deserves a separate one. Here we're aiming for a very strong solo build that can move quickly behind enemy lines and win fights that are even or stacked against you.

I use this build when scouting for my guild and when I go out solo behind enemy lines looking for trouble. Duties as a scout include stopping small groups from taking supply camps, NPC camps and outposts, protecting Dolyaks, and tracking/harassing/baiting large enemy forces moving through my territory. All of this requires high mobility and killing power.

Here I'll discuss purely building/gearing the character. I plan to write out strategy sections later. Not sure on ETA, yet. A video is inc eventually when I have time to sift through 500gb of fraps. I have no idea when that will be since I tend to feel like logging on instead of editing footage.

Video of the build in use:



The Build
Version1: Pure DPS
Version2: Slightly more tanky Dagger mainhand
Version3: Slightly more tanky Sword mainhand


Trait Discussion


Explanation of Deadly Arts Traits:
  • Mug: This is a pretty obvious choice, the burst is wonderful.
  • Back Fighting: This may be a confusing trait choice, but you'd be surprised how many fights I've won on my back because of 2.5-4k hits while downed. It's more of a game changer than any of the other traits in this build. The only time I would consider using something else is Dagger Training for a D/D build.
  • Why only 25 Deadly Arts? I love the extra 50 power and the 4s immobilize, but the extra dodges from the last 5 points in acro will win fights more consistently if you know how to use them.
Explanation of Critical Strikes Traits:
  • Furious Retaliation: With 100%+ crit damage, Fury is too good not to have.
  • Critical Haste: Even a 2s haste is enough auto attacks to down someone from 100% life.
  • Executioner: Consistent, large damage boost when your opponent is low life and starts playing defensively? Yes, please.
Explanation of Acrobatics Traits:
  • Power of Inertia: You'll be getting 2 stacks of might every time you dodge with this build, and you'll be dodging a ton. How does having 6-7 consistent might stacks sound to you?
Reasoning for Acrobatics instead of Trickery or Shadow:
  • Simply stated, dodging and avoiding attacks are your life blood as a squishy thief. Your goal should be to avoid EVERY large attack by your enemy while punishing them with your own between. 15 points in Acro gives you 1.5k HP and a tremendous increase in the amount of dodges that you can do over time, starting with 50% more dodges (3 instead of 2) right off the bat.
Utilities and Elite


Shadow Refuge:
  • This ability serves so many purposes that it probably deserves it's own thread. Let's just say that once you get accustomed to using this in creative ways, you'll never drop it off your utility bar ever again.
Shadowstep:
  • 2x Gap closer, 2x Gap opener, 2x Stun breaker, and 1x (3) condition removal. Check, what else to say here?
Signet of Shadows:
  • You simply can not keep swiftness up at all times from dodging. It's just not going to happen. In all of the mean time, this 25% runspeed is going to do you wonders for moving around the world quickly as well as chasing down your opponents. Also, well timed use of this instant ability can save you from disaster if everything else is down or guarantee a stomp on certain classes such as ranger, guardian, warrior, engi, necro.
Dagger Storm:
  • WvW contains a very high percentage of ranged weapons. You'll find hoards of rangers, rifle warriors, scepter guardians, pistol thieves, and other various ranged attackers who will do silly things like: Rapid Fire, Killshot and Unload on you while you spin to win and reflect it. This ability is often the only way you're going to win a 4-5v1 against a group of brain dead players who are spamming ranged attacks upon you. Steal on a warrior then do a second spin for good measure. Thieves Guild simply will not give you as much mileage as this ability.
Delicious Food


Bowl of Orrian Truffle and Meat Stew:
  • This tasty treat synergies greatly with your points in acrobatics, making them more effective and you move elusive.
Weapon Sigils


Sword:
  • Sigil of Paralyzation: This sigil adds a full 1s to your Tactical Strike daze duration, despite it being 15%. This is invaluable when wearing S/D.
Daggers:
  • Sigil of Air or Fire: An argument can be made for either. I've been using Fire lately since the AOE can hit mesmer/necro pets, other players, and only hits for ~15% less damage than Air. Use this dagger along with your sword when going S/D.
  • Sigil of Force: 5% extra damage will improve your burst. Use this dagger only when D/D.
Shortbow:
  • Sigil of Bloodlust: This is a must! +250 power once you've been out slaying for a while makes a huge difference in damage output. It's simply unbeatable.
Pistol:
  • Sigil of Force: 5% extra damage will improve your burst when going D/P, use the air or fire dagger in mainhand with this.
Armor Runes


Scholar:
  • Simply put, I consider this the best set of runes to go with. If you concentrate on avoiding damage, you will be dealing 10-15% more damage than any other runeset until you breach 90% life then you'll STILL do slightly more damage than any other runeset.
Other Runes: Weapons Discussion
  • First it must be noted that I swap weapons regularly as needed. Don't restrict yourself to only one weapon, it will only weaken your versatility. My go-to set is S/D+SB, but I use D/D+SB and D/P+SB on a regular basis as well.
Shortbow:
  • I don't care how you want to play this build, SB needs to be one of your weapons. Cluster bomb is useful beyond just huge aoe damage. You'll be healing yourself in ranger trees, punishing thieves/mesmers who stealthed near you, and dodging attacks even when you're out of endurance. You have a reliable poison field and stackable AOE weakness  as well as a very strong AOE auto attack that makes Mesmers whimper
Sword/Dagger:
  • This is my diamond in the rough weapon set that many scorn here on Guru and in game. You have a strong AOE auto attack that cripples, a 3-second daze for your stealth attack (with paralyzation sigil), a wonderful gap closer and stun/condition remover, a some-what useful evade (think LDB when you're a power/backstab D/D thief) that does monstrous power based damage if it lands, then all the greatness of offhand dagger. Once you learn this weapon set, you'll find that it frustrates and confuses your enemies far more than daggers while allowing you to say "How bout them heartseekers?" after you win. Who doesn't like gloating?
Dagger/Pistol:
  • This set is very powerful as well and my second favorite behind S/D. You have a solid gap closer that does good damage and blinds, very high DPS auto attack, all the glory of Heartseeker, AOE blinds, very fast daze for interrupts/stomps, and the most reliable stealth method available on a Thief weapon set. I enjoy this set far more than D/D when I want to be a backstab thief, but it must be said: The burst is NOT in line with a D/D thief. The utility, however, makes it look like a joke.
Dagger/Dagger:
  • I swap to this set when running with a partner or a group, the giant burst capability becomes very valuable. If you feel bad for using what every other thief uses, just imagine the tears on the other side of the internets when you backstab someone for 15k then finish them with a massive overkill 10k heartseeker. It comforts me a bit.
Sword/Pistol, Pistol/Dagger, Pistol/Pistol
  • Each of these sets have their uses, but none are optimal for this build. Pistol/Pistol is nice but you're just setting yourself up for dying to reflection builds by using them since they can never replace a shortbow.
Underwater Weapon: Spear
  • Whoever approved the design of this weapon obviously didn't care one bit about any type of "balance" in underwater combat. 1 is a powerful dagger-style auto attack, 2 hits nearly as hard as a <25% life heartseeker that evades and still costs the same, 3 is a block that retaliates with damage nearly on par with Pistol Whip, 4 blinds your target and teleports you on top of them, and 5 is a power-based leaping death blossom that infuriates people and lasts way too long for the initiative investment. If you want German kids beating their keyboards on walls because of you, just lure them into water and spam 5 while using steal and scorpion wire to stay on top of them. Equip infiltrator's signet and roll for initiative to make it even more cheesy.
Armor Discussion


Full Berserker's:
  • I have defensive armor that sits in my bank because personally, I go full berserker in every slot more often than not. If you can avoid attacks and stay >90% life, you will be doing ridiculous amounts of damage that not even the tankiest guardian can stand for more than a few hits.
Balanced Stats:
  • This is optimal for those who do not wish for a single mistake to ruin their day. Below is a huge mathcrafting section on how to choose which slots should be which armor type.
We'll be aiming for a balance of toughness, decent amount of HP, good crit chance crit damage. The best choice IMO is a mix of Soldier (WvW, Dungeon, Karma), and Berserker gear. Below is some Math that can help you determine which gear slots should have crit damage % (berserker), and which should have raw stats (Soldier).

First, we determine which pieces are best to have crit dmg on vs minor stats to help determine which pieces will be Berserker.

Helm: 45 32 32 2% (16 minor vs 1% crit)
Shoulders: 34 24 24 2% (12 minor vs 1% crit)
Chest: 101 72 72 5% (14.4 minor vs 1% crit)
Gloves: 34 24 24 2% (12 minor vs 1% crit)
Legs: 67 48 48 3% (16 minor vs 1% crit)
Boots: 34 24 24 2% (12 minor vs 1% crit)
Weapons: 180 128 128 10% (12.8 minor vs 1% crit)

Earrings: 112 80 80 6% (13.33 minor vs 1% crit)
Rings: 134 96 96 6% (16 minor vs 1% crit)
Amulet: 90 64 64 5% (12.8 minor vs 1% crit)

Jewels: 25 15 15 3% (5 minor vs 1% crit)

Crit vs Minor efficiency: (Closer to this side should be Berserker) Jewels >>>>> Shoulders, Gloves, Boots > Amulet, Weapons > Earrings > Chest > Helm, Legs, Rings (Closer to this side should be Soldier)

Now that we know which pieces are most efficient to be crit dmg pieces, time to decide on stat distribution! (note: Berserker/Valk jewels have a massively good ratio of crit dmg vs stats, you simply can't go with anything else if you want crit dmg in your build)

Valkyrie: Power > vit+crit
Knights: Tough > prec+power
Berserker: Power > prec+crit
Soldier: Power > tough+vit

Now here is the part where I leave you to make your own choices. Start with Helm, Legs, Rings and move up the efficiency chart adding Power>tough+vit gear in place of Berserker's gear until you hit your preferred level of tankiness. Remember to use Berserker or Valkyrie Jewels no matter what you do b/c of the huge crit damage vs stat efficiency.

Edited by Kutsus, 30 October 2012 - 04:15 AM.


#2 Yamirashi

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 03:43 PM

Looks like this is very well thought out. Some obvious synergies here.

Also looks like you're trying to accomplish the same roles I'm trying to accomplish for my guild.

Played around with this build last night and the one thing I can say is I miss the Initiative refund on stealth skills. I felt initiative starved most of the night but I do like having more dodges. I didn't try it with the food or I'm sure it would have been even better for dodging. I'll probably stick with this build a few more nights and see if it gets any better for me with managing resources.

Edit: Nitpicking- what sigil do you use on your aquatic weapon? :P

Edited by Yamirashi, 15 November 2012 - 05:30 PM.


#3 LOCOMOFO

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 11:15 PM

Thanks for posting this info Kutsus.

The math on the armor was especially helpful as I was just looking at crafting myself some new armor.

#4 Kutsus

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 11:26 PM

View PostYamirashi, on 17 October 2012 - 03:43 PM, said:

Looks like this is very well thought out. Some obvious synergies here.

Also looks like you're trying to accomplish the same rolls I'm trying to accomplish for my guild.

Played around with this build last night and the one thing I can say is I miss the Initiative refund on stealth skills. I felt initiative starved most of the night but I do like having more dodges. I didn't try it with the food or I'm sure it would have been even better for dodging. I'll probably stick with this build a few more nights and see if it gets any better for me with managing resources.

Edit: Nitpicking- what sigil do you use on your aquatic weapon? :P

Yeah, it was a difficult decision to choose acrobatics over the initiative regen, but I find being able to dodge many more times in a fight more useful than stealthing 1, maybe 2 more times during a long fight. Plus the constant 5-7 stacks of might. Tasty!

I'm still experimenting with aquatic weapon sigil, but for now it's an air sigil.

#5 Yamirashi

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 01:56 PM

View PostKutsus, on 17 October 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

Yeah, it was a difficult decision to choose acrobatics over the initiative regen, but I find being able to dodge many more times in a fight more useful than stealthing 1, maybe 2 more times during a long fight. Plus the constant 5-7 stacks of might. Tasty!

I'm still experimenting with aquatic weapon sigil, but for now it's an air sigil.

Yeah It might be better for me once I'm running the food. I'm not buying the food right now cause I'm saving the gold for my full exotics... Right now I'm missing exotic rings (currently masterwork) and exotic amulet and weapons (currently rare) as well as my runes. Once I get all of that I'm sure things will go even better :P

#6 theqwertyosc

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 07:20 PM

I've been levelling a thief and doing quite a lot of wvwvw since I hit level 60, and I will be keen to try a few things out that you've mentioned here. Now I'm going to express my opinions, and please, tell me if I am wrong!
  • I use Sword/Pistol for PvE, and so I just use that for wvwvw without second thought, but now that I read this, I realise how much more useful Sword/Dagger could be, as the last 2 weapon skills are less than useful on the pistol in wvwvw, and despite my love of pistol whip, the offhand dagger may or may not be more fun (I will see)
  • I don't use acrobatics, and have only 15 points in Deadly arts so that I can get bountiful thief, extra damage per initiative, thrill of the crime and the extra starting initiative. I really like the trickery skill tree as I find every trait useful, but I might invest in acrobatics instead to see how it feels.
  • I like haste and the signet for initiative regen too, and I switch between those in wvwvw. (Always have shadow refuge obviously.
The main thing is my 15/30/0/0/25 vs your 25/30/0/15/0, and I would love to hear what you think; not for the sake of arguement, but because I believe discussion is the second greatest way to learn and being wrong is the best. In a way, I want to be proven wrong, so please do try!

#7 Kutsus

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 08:56 PM

View Posttheqwertyosc, on 18 October 2012 - 07:20 PM, said:

I've been levelling a thief and doing quite a lot of wvwvw since I hit level 60, and I will be keen to try a few things out that you've mentioned here. Now I'm going to express my opinions, and please, tell me if I am wrong!
  • I use Sword/Pistol for PvE, and so I just use that for wvwvw without second thought, but now that I read this, I realise how much more useful Sword/Dagger could be, as the last 2 weapon skills are less than useful on the pistol in wvwvw, and despite my love of pistol whip, the offhand dagger may or may not be more fun (I will see)
  • I don't use acrobatics, and have only 15 points in Deadly arts so that I can get bountiful thief, extra damage per initiative, thrill of the crime and the extra starting initiative. I really like the trickery skill tree as I find every trait useful, but I might invest in acrobatics instead to see how it feels.
  • I like haste and the signet for initiative regen too, and I switch between those in wvwvw. (Always have shadow refuge obviously.
The main thing is my 15/30/0/0/25 vs your 25/30/0/15/0, and I would love to hear what you think; not for the sake of arguement, but because I believe discussion is the second greatest way to learn and being wrong is the best. In a way, I want to be proven wrong, so please do try!

Regarding Sword/Pistol, I leveled up with it as well. The near-instant daze and black powder can be incredibly useful in WvW, but Pistol Whip requires people to play poorly.

Dancing Dagger is the highest DPS attack available to a thief in this game - when there are 2 players in range for it to bounce between them and hit each twice. I've seen one bounce hit for over 6k, and each throw can result in 2 hits if they have a pet (think ranger pet, mesmer clone, rock dog, etc) or a partner.

Here are my reasons for not going trickery in this build.

1. Synergy between orrian truffle and meat stew + reduced cost of dodge (acrobatics) - This nearly doubles the amount of dodges you can pull off in the same time period. It's pretty huge overall.

2. Condition damage and steal cooldown are lackluster compared to vitality+boon duration or power+condition duration when using a glassy power build that has some decent boon stacking (might).

3. Damage per initiative is pretty well nullified by 10% dmg when they have a condition.

4. I love the steal buffs in Trickery, truly. They're extremely useful. However, compare +3 initiative, fury, swiftness, and -2 boons to all the extra dodges and might stacks and it starts to get tricky to decide.

So in the end, trickery is still great. Use it if you like it. I was 25/30/0/0/15 for weeks.

#8 theqwertyosc

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 10:04 PM

Thanks for your insight, but unfortunately I'm an initiative junkie. I would die if I wasn't traited for initiative in some way, so I may end up with 20 in acrobatics, or as you say, just 15 points in trickery. Also I find one use of an off-hand pistol is soloing veteran guards with black powder and auto attack, but I suppose that outside of PvE Sword/Pistol is a relatively inferior option.

#9 Kutsus

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 11:36 PM

View Posttheqwertyosc, on 18 October 2012 - 10:04 PM, said:

Thanks for your insight, but unfortunately I'm an initiative junkie. I would die if I wasn't traited for initiative in some way, so I may end up with 20 in acrobatics, or as you say, just 15 points in trickery. Also I find one use of an off-hand pistol is soloing veteran guards with black powder and auto attack, but I suppose that outside of PvE Sword/Pistol is a relatively inferior option.

A few pvp uses of black powder:
  • Area denial - Nobody wants to stand in a blind field.
  • Blinding big abilities like Eviscerate or Kill shot
  • Blinding downed enemies so they can't CC you while you stomp
  • Stealth with a leap finisher
  • AOE blindness with blast finisher
  • Ranged blindness with projectiles
There are plenty more uses, but that is why I use D/P + SB sometimes.

Headshot, of course has a plethora of uses from interruping resses/stomps to heals/elites and channeled skills. It rocks.

#10 Lizam

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 01:39 AM

Awesome build. I definitely want to try this once our home server isn't getting smashed in WvW ^^;

However, for Sigil of Paralyzation, which you've suggested to have on your Sword, the wiki descriptions says that it increases Stun duration but not Daze. Is that a typo or does Stun duration also increase the effect of dazes and other control effects too?

Cheers

#11 Kutsus

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 01:46 AM

View PostLizam, on 23 October 2012 - 01:39 AM, said:

Awesome build. I definitely want to try this once our home server isn't getting smashed in WvW ^^;

However, for Sigil of Paralyzation, which you've suggested to have on your Sword, the wiki descriptions says that it increases Stun duration but not Daze. Is that a typo or does Stun duration also increase the effect of dazes and other control effects too?

Cheers

It works on dazes also. In addition, it's bugged and gives a full 1s increase to the 2s daze.

#12 Yamirashi

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:57 PM

I hope its not actually a bug, but how they do their rounding, because it synergizes quite well with S/D builds.

I went back and tried out your older S/D build that you posted once before that goes 30 into Shadow Arts because I thought I liked it better. I realized rather quickly why you swapped. I'm still using a mix of Knight and Valk for armor with Valk weapons but I went all Zerker jewels. I'm going to start buying up the food and seeing if I can get better with my dodges. If I get to where I'm avoiding more than I'm mitigating I may try going full zerker like you have.

I probably need to build this out as a sPVP build and spend a lot of time out there working on surviving and knowing when to run and things like that.

#13 Kutsus

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 07:22 PM

View PostYamirashi, on 23 October 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

I hope its not actually a bug, but how they do their rounding, because it synergizes quite well with S/D builds.

I went back and tried out your older S/D build that you posted once before that goes 30 into Shadow Arts because I thought I liked it better. I realized rather quickly why you swapped. I'm still using a mix of Knight and Valk for armor with Valk weapons but I went all Zerker jewels. I'm going to start buying up the food and seeing if I can get better with my dodges. If I get to where I'm avoiding more than I'm mitigating I may try going full zerker like you have.

I probably need to build this out as a sPVP build and spend a lot of time out there working on surviving and knowing when to run and things like that.

Yeah, this class can get pretty tanky with a build like the one I posted before, but I've come to realize over time that with our limited resources we can do very well in short, bursty fights where we can chain dodges/evades and various cooldowns to avoid 100% of damage well into the fight. At the point you start running low on tricks and waiting on regen, your enemy is either dead/downed with a glass build or still kicking with a tanky build. The shorter the fight, the more advantage initative has over cooldown-reliant classes.

I did most of my practice with this build out in WvW. Just run headlong into a group of 2-4 enemies and make my purpose to kill them, kite and kill them, or escape. I died a lot in the learning process, but my enemies spend far more time infuraited than triumphant these days :D

#14 CRO200

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 09:53 PM

I know you said you will be doing a start section later, but can you quickly give me an idea of how you would start a fight with this build. I.e rotation.

I'm finding I'm only spamming the #1 skill most of my fights. I don't even bother with flanking strike as i don't understand it's use and I usually hit c&d when it's up.

So usually, I go in with dancing daggers x 2, then spam the auto attack and the #5 when I get into trouble.  Problem is that I've hardly done any damage and end up running away on lowish health. (Only ever played s/p with pistol whip spam so I'm a skill less muppet who doesn't get this build or how to properly play)

#15 Yamirashi

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 10:08 PM

I'm actually interested in trying a 15/30/0/25/0 build since I find the traits in DA to be lackluster. Also since I use S/D WAY more than D/D the trade off of Fluid Strikes for Exposed Weakness appeals to me. I feel like the 10% dmg from FW would be easier to maintain in this build than EW. I find a lot more use out of the Acrobatics traits (such as reduced fall dmg for WvW, heal on initiative spend, remove cripple and weakness on dodge could have good synergy, vigor on heal and swap HIS for Withdraw?, etc..)

Have you played around with this? I'm not sure the 100 power lost from the DA tree is that significant at the power levels we get from our gear, but the extra health and utility from Acrobatics as well as more uptime on 10% dmg may work nicely.

#16 Kutsus

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 03:48 AM

View PostYamirashi, on 23 October 2012 - 10:08 PM, said:

I'm actually interested in trying a 15/30/0/25/0 build since I find the traits in DA to be lackluster. Also since I use S/D WAY more than D/D the trade off of Fluid Strikes for Exposed Weakness appeals to me. I feel like the 10% dmg from FW would be easier to maintain in this build than EW. I find a lot more use out of the Acrobatics traits (such as reduced fall dmg for WvW, heal on initiative spend, remove cripple and weakness on dodge could have good synergy, vigor on heal and swap HIS for Withdraw?, etc..)

Have you played around with this? I'm not sure the 100 power lost from the DA tree is that significant at the power levels we get from our gear, but the extra health and utility from Acrobatics as well as more uptime on 10% dmg may work nicely.

The power loss is still pretty significant, but at that point I'd just go 10/30/0/30/0 and pick up hard to catch or quick pockets and quick recovery.

Edited by Kutsus, 24 October 2012 - 03:49 AM.


#17 Kutsus

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 04:28 AM

I find it pretty interesting all of the people on the main forums bandwagoning S/D all the sudden when none of the problems with the ability that they usually complain about were changed.

I bet what happened is that this patch prompted them to ACTUALLY try it, and they found it to be pretty darn awesome when you pay attention and only use it when it's likely to land.

#18 Yamirashi

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 03:24 PM

Yeah, lots of people just bash the ability cause they have heard others bash it and they don't like how it sounds. Its an ability that requires some skill to use unlike DB which just hits everything in the area. I've TRIED going back to DD and just can't do it. Yes its huge burst coming from backstab, but SD lets me win fights I wouldn't normally win.

I'm personally glad I did start ignoring the people saying it was bad and really give it a shot because I liked the "feel" of the weapon set style wise better than DD.

As for the Traits I am trying 15/30/0/25/0 and as of right now I'm not noticing a loss in power, but I'm also running with groups more often than not. I do like the 15 in DA because it allows my SB 4 to be a weakness field bomb and that's quite nice for me in WvW. I like the 25 in Acro because it allows me to keep the might on dodge as well as reduced fall dmg which I really like having in WvW as well.

I'll give it a little while longer to test and see what I wind up thinking about it.

#19 Kutsus

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 04:31 PM

View PostYamirashi, on 24 October 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Yeah, lots of people just bash the ability cause they have heard others bash it and they don't like how it sounds. Its an ability that requires some skill to use unlike DB which just hits everything in the area. I've TRIED going back to DD and just can't do it. Yes its huge burst coming from backstab, but SD lets me win fights I wouldn't normally win.

I'm personally glad I did start ignoring the people saying it was bad and really give it a shot because I liked the "feel" of the weapon set style wise better than DD.

As for the Traits I am trying 15/30/0/25/0 and as of right now I'm not noticing a loss in power, but I'm also running with groups more often than not. I do like the 15 in DA because it allows my SB 4 to be a weakness field bomb and that's quite nice for me in WvW. I like the 25 in Acro because it allows me to keep the might on dodge as well as reduced fall dmg which I really like having in WvW as well.

I'll give it a little while longer to test and see what I wind up thinking about it.

I see your reasoning now that you say you're running with a group, I was coming from the solo/roamer perspective weighing a grandmaster trait vs weakness on poison.

I couldn't imagine taking reduced fall damage over quick recovery, but I guess it depends how much you're jumping off keeps/cliffs and such.

#20 Drtrider

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 04:50 PM

An interesting setup. I have yet to see a Sword Dagger build that works. Mainly due to lack of damage output. However, I would really like to see how this setup is played. However, the food you mentioned I will most likely be using this in my Pistol/Dagger build as it has a very high dependance on dodge.

Note, that with my build I'm normally a loan ranger/high stealth/scout as well. Different builds, same idea. +1 man well done. Still want to see how this build is in action however.

Edited by Drtrider, 24 October 2012 - 04:51 PM.


#21 Yamirashi

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 05:10 PM

View PostKutsus, on 24 October 2012 - 04:31 PM, said:

I see your reasoning now that you say you're running with a group, I was coming from the solo/roamer perspective weighing a grandmaster trait vs weakness on poison.

I couldn't imagine taking reduced fall damage over quick recovery, but I guess it depends how much you're jumping off keeps/cliffs and such.

Hmm, I've not really used Quick Recovery because in my head 2 every 10s doesn't SEEM like much. I may swap it out and see if it seems to make a difference to me.

The fall dmg trait quite honestly may be a head thing more than a real usage thing. The northern part of the BL maps do have LOTS of cliffs, but I don't know how much extra distance you can fall wtih that trait without dying. I know its 50% less dmg, but its not 50% more fall. I think fall dmg increases exponentially so the actual added distance may be very small. And I'm not normally falling those distances into people trying to kill me so the health recovery time is minimal. Also typically running small group as long as one of us lives we'll be okay. The auto stealth when jumping off a keep wall may be more useful than the actual dmg reduction. That stealth allows you to get in position and set up a Signet + Shadow Refuge + Dagger Storm in the middle of a zerg beating on your keep/tower door.  It was definitely a much better trait when it didn't have the internal cooldown and you could slide down rooftops and chain together a ridiculously long stealth...

#22 Kutsus

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 07:50 PM

View PostDrtrider, on 24 October 2012 - 04:50 PM, said:

An interesting setup. I have yet to see a Sword Dagger build that works. Mainly due to lack of damage output. However, I would really like to see how this setup is played. However, the food you mentioned I will most likely be using this in my Pistol/Dagger build as it has a very high dependance on dodge.

Note, that with my build I'm normally a loan ranger/high stealth/scout as well. Different builds, same idea. +1 man well done. Still want to see how this build is in action however.

I have some fraps footage I keep meaning to get together. Essentially, it's played far differently than the usual backstab burst build that you're used to.

Use your shortbow a lot, rip them up as much as you can with it until they finally manage to get on top of you then swap to S/D and bring on the dazes/evades/immobilize/cripple until they run away or die. ALWAYS save initiative to infiltrator strike>shadow step if you need to GTFO. Most fights end in <20 seconds, but you can last ages even with full glass gear.

Edited by Kutsus, 24 October 2012 - 07:57 PM.


#23 Kutsus

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:18 AM

Video uploading to youtube now (1:15AM Eastern time) - should be available within the next couple of hours.

Nothing special, just a showcase of what this build can do. There's only 1 D/D scene in here and none with D/P. Will be working on some additional footage for those later.


Edited by Kutsus, 25 October 2012 - 05:18 AM.


#24 Modus Pwnens

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:45 PM

I've been really enjoying this build. Somewhat surprisingly, because it's so mobile and can fairly safely attack a wide area with CC, I've actually had great luck even when taking a break and running PvE with some friends (it's a lot less forgiving than a PvE cond build, but usually kills faster if you aren't making mistakes).

Right now, I'm trying out the build with Superior Runes of the Mad King from the event. While you give up some of that sweet, sweet crit percentage and the 90%, having a bit more condition damage doesn't hurt with the SB and the ravens, in additional to looking incredible, make dagger storm even more terrifying.

#25 Kogarashi

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 02:59 PM

This is an interesting build but I have 2 questions (I'm using critical dmg build, D/D).

At traits:
Why not use Sundering Strikers instead of Mug?
Or Hidden Killer instead of Executioner?

#26 Kutsus

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 03:14 PM

View PostKogarashi, on 26 October 2012 - 02:59 PM, said:

This is an interesting build but I have 2 questions (I'm using critical dmg build, D/D).

At traits:
Why not use Sundering Strikers instead of Mug?
Or Hidden Killer instead of Executioner?

Mug can hit anywhere from 3-7k. It's highly useful for burst dmg along with C&D.

Hidden Killer doesn't get you much when you're not using dagger full time (tactical strike isn't huge damage), and even then I'd still use executioner.

#27 Korra

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 03:32 PM

Good build, sword autoattack is just wonderfull, the cripple is godly and IS gives a great in-out mode which is really great. Although i dont like the sword speed for WvW, i gotta admit those 7k cripples hurt.

I run a balanced damage oriented build with s/s, the main source of damage is indeed steal + Cnd, because yes.

Using Valkyrie on armor gives me enough life to survive any ugly situations, and my crt dmg is skyhigh, rest berserker. Combined with Curry bowl i reach 100% crt dmg and 50%crt chance (70% if fury from thrill of the crime).


View PostKutsus, on 18 October 2012 - 08:56 PM, said:


Dancing Dagger is the highest DPS attack available to a thief in this game - when there are 2 players in range for it to bounce between them and hit each twice. I've seen one bounce hit for over 6k, and each throw can result in 2 hits if they have a pet (think ranger pet, mesmer clone, rock dog, etc) or a partner.


Couldnt agree more, i actually had a encounter 1vs3, i had 3 orbs, so i just spammed dancing dagger and they all were dead in less than 3 seconds.

#28 Kutsus

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 04:25 AM

Have been messing around with a 10/30/0/30/0 build and am enjoying it pretty well. The 150 extra vit is a godsend and the traits are nice for suvivability.

What I'm trying right now is II, VIII, X - I spent a whole day trying the grandmaster traits and wasn't too impressed.

Next to try is 10/30/0/15/15, but the damage will be a solid 10% lower than with the 10/30/0/30/0 and will offer less survivability in exchange for extra init and thrill of the crime or caltrops on dodge.

Edited by Kutsus, 28 October 2012 - 04:27 AM.


#29 samiyuro

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 05:10 AM

View PostKutsus, on 28 October 2012 - 04:25 AM, said:

Have been messing around with a 10/30/0/30/0 build and am enjoying it pretty well. The 150 extra vit is a godsend and the traits are nice for suvivability.

What I'm trying right now is II, VIII, X - I spent a whole day trying the grandmaster traits and wasn't too impressed.

Next to try is 10/30/0/15/15, but the damage will be a solid 10% lower than with the 10/30/0/30/0 and will offer less survivability in exchange for extra init and thrill of the crime or caltrops on dodge.

Thank you for your efforts. Plz let us know your findings. How is the damage of 10/30/0/15/15 10% lower than 10/30/0/30/0? Am I missing something? By the way, do you think the 150 power loss is noticeable going from 25 DA.

#30 Larwa

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 06:42 AM

View Postsamiyuro, on 28 October 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

Thank you for your efforts. Plz let us know your findings. How is the damage of 10/30/0/15/15 10% lower than 10/30/0/30/0? Am I missing something? By the way, do you think the 150 power loss is noticeable going from 25 DA.

Acrobatics 25, fluid strikes, +10% dmg when endurance not full.




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