84 replies to this topic

[evoked987]

Larwa, on 28 October 2012 - 06:42 AM, said:

Acrobatics 25, fluid strikes, +10% dmg when endurance not full.

I think it wouldn't be actually 10% if you factor in the initiative gained, the more worrying thought would be losing the vitality for me. Whether it is worth it, and would it have a better effect or worse in DA(25/30/0/15/0) vs Trick (10/30/0/15/15). Pity, if only there were 5 more points, LOL.

[Ravnodaus]

evoked987, on 28 October 2012 - 06:56 AM, said:

I think it wouldn't be actually 10% if you factor in the initiative gained, the more worrying thought would be losing the vitality for me. Whether it is worth it, and would it have a better effect or worse in DA(25/30/0/15/0) vs Trick (10/30/0/15/15). Pity, if only there were 5 more points, LOL.

Yes, also it is an additive 10%, not a total 10% loss.

Ex, if you go from +30% damage to only +20% (loss of a 10% damage increase trait, for instance) You don't lose 10% damage, you lose 7.7% damage.


Also, to address an earlier poster, Static initiative regen is 1 per second isn't it? Then 2 extra per 10 seconds is +20% initiative regen, which is pretty nice. There are not many better ways to regen initiative. On weapon swap can potentially be 3 per 10, or +30% regen. The utility signet is only 1 per 10. Initial strikes and 20% on crit regen is pretty unpredictable but generally dont return as much except in possible aoe situations. The only other method I know for massive init regen is Signet Use, comboed with signet of malice and 30 in trickery for 4 init on heal, that gives you 6 per 12, or +50% potentially. How much faster is regen while in stealth trait? I may have to test it, Im not sure ve ever used it come to think...

OP, I'm falling more and more in love with sword/dagger the more used to it I get. I'm switching after the recent stealth nerf to stealth (longer revealed). I used p/d for in and out stealth conditions. I was searching for advice on extending the swords daze, and this thread popped up. I had noticed in mists sigil of para seems too good, and that 2x sigil of para and runes of mesmer didn't seem to stack with each other and was trying to track down why.

I run slighly different utilities, and spec a touch different... I generally am durable for a thief. My focus is all about locking my target down and out. Playstyle: Denial. It's fun. So I still go in and out of stealth frequently with this weapon combo.

[ownagejuiceee]

first of all great post OP it was the difference maker in helping me decide whether to be a warrior or thief for WvW.

secondly i have one question, i cant seem to match the damage output that you are doing in your videos and i think i may know why but i need some confirmation. i am running full berserker gear and trinkets however the jewelry are only masterwork and i am not eating the foods that you are eating, is that the reason i cant seem to pull off the amount of damage that you are doing?

and on a side note my runes seem to show up as 12/6 rune of scholar, im still getting the rune bonuses correct?

edit.. you mentioned that you swap your weapons around do you still keep the same traits? or do you change them when going dagger pistol.

another thing you mention is dagger pistol is the most reliable weapon set for stealthing and i agree with the blind field plus heartseaker but to me it seems like thats a lot of initiative to spend just to stealth especially with out extra initiaitve in your traits

Edited by ownagejuiceee, 30 October 2012 - 03:47 AM.

[Kutsus]

ownagejuiceee, on 30 October 2012 - 03:42 AM, said:

first of all great post OP it was the difference maker in helping me decide whether to be a warrior or thief for WvW.

secondly i have one question, i cant seem to match the damage output that you are doing in your videos and i think i may know why but i need some confirmation. i am running full berserker gear and trinkets however the jewelry are only masterwork and i am not eating the foods that you are eating, is that the reason i cant seem to pull off the amount of damage that you are doing?

and on a side note my runes seem to show up as 12/6 rune of scholar, im still getting the rune bonuses correct?

edit.. you mentioned that you swap your weapons around do you still keep the same traits? or do you change them when going dagger pistol.

another thing you mention is dagger pistol is the most reliable weapon set for stealthing and i agree with the blind field plus heartseaker but to me it seems like thats a lot of initiative to spend just to stealth especially with out extra initiaitve in your traits

There's a display bug if you use runes of the scholar in the mists and in PvE that you will see 12/6, but there's no actual stats being bugged.

For the damage output, I am using 100% full exotic berserker gear and often have some bloodlust stacks in this video. Also, the food and spec I'm using gives me 5-6 might stacks pretty consistently which can easily be +200 extra power.

If I swap dagger mainhand, I sometimes swap in the 5% dagger damage trait instead of 50% dmg while downed, but I find the downed damage can make a much bigger impact on a fight if you end up downed and fighting to rally yourself.

Dagger/pistol is the most reliable in that it doesn't depend on you landing an attack. Yes, it is very expensive and shouldn't be used lightly. With dagger/pistol, I use autoattack a lot and only drop a black powder or use the gap closer when they are practical and needed. Throwing a heartseeker at the end of black powder just makes the 6 initiative more worthwhile.

Personally, I spend the majority of my time with S/D or D/D as I use shortbow a lot and C&D+Steal as a massive burst finisher when they're below 50% life in 1v1s. S/D is very strong in Xv1 situations compared to D/D, so it makes a reasonable argument for itself as my primary set of 1h weapons.

Edited by Kutsus, 30 October 2012 - 04:01 AM.

[buujuu]

in what situations do u use flanking strike?
i see in your video that u don't use it very regularly

[Mursie]

I love s/d.  trying it out and really enjoying it.  my only question is this:

If its not 15 in trickery for 3 more initiative...than it feels like you have to go 10 in SA for +2 initiative on stealth move.  C&D is so expensive...  dancing dagger isn't that much cheaper..... not having one of these two feels very tough.

How are you dealing with this?

[Kutsus]

Mursie, on 31 October 2012 - 12:53 AM, said:

I love s/d.  trying it out and really enjoying it.  my only question is this:

If its not 15 in trickery for 3 more initiative...than it feels like you have to go 10 in SA for +2 initiative on stealth move.  C&D is so expensive...  dancing dagger isn't that much cheaper..... not having one of these two feels very tough.

How are you dealing with this?

Getting almost 2x the dodges is enough by itself for me. I tend to use C&D sparingly and let the sword autoattack do much of the damage.

[Mursie]

KK i'll check it out.  FYI - no orrian truffle stew exists anymore... AH completely out and it was selling for 18 silver when it left.  Rofl.. your post just made someone rich =)

[Kutsus]

Mursie, on 31 October 2012 - 01:38 AM, said:

KK i'll check it out.  FYI - no orrian truffle stew exists anymore... AH completely out and it was selling for 18 silver when it left.  Rofl.. your post just made someone rich =)

haha wow, I bought a whole bunch around 2s each a good while ago.

[Mursie]

Another thought while thinking about it.  acro +swift on dodge for 2 secs is only marginally effective since it doesnt stack with SoS.  however, as you noted, the primary reason you are doing the build is for the additional dodge via feline grace.  with that in mind... have you thought about traiting III and IX, vigorous recovery and heal on initiative spent.  these should synergize nicely as your heals from doing dmg are giving you vigor for even more dodges and your dodges are already refilling at a more positive rate because of food...  or does vigor recovery not stack with the food and gives the same marginal increase as does swiftness discussed earlier??  thoughts?

[Kutsus]

Mursie, on 31 October 2012 - 02:08 AM, said:

Another thought while thinking about it.  acro +swift on dodge for 2 secs is only marginally effective since it doesnt stack with SoS.  however, as you noted, the primary reason you are doing the build is for the additional dodge via feline grace.  with that in mind... have you thought about traiting III and IX, vigorous recovery and heal on initiative spent.  these should synergize nicely as your heals from doing dmg are giving you vigor for even more dodges and your dodges are already refilling at a more positive rate because of food...  or does vigor recovery not stack with the food and gives the same marginal increase as does swiftness discussed earlier??  thoughts?

The only way I will trait vigorous recovery is with withdraw or signet of malice and I prefer hide in shadows for the condition removal and an easy stealth.

[Yamirashi]

samiyuro, on 28 October 2012 - 05:10 AM, said:

By the way, do you think the 150 power loss is noticeable going from 25 DA.

It is noticeable, but the increase in survival is more noticeable.

Both have there place, I can run either spec and lose fights where I felt I would have won had I been in the other spec.

I'm currently struggling to find the role I REALLY want to focus on at this time

Edit: Wow, I'd completely missed the 2nd page when I posted this. I hadn't been here in a while >.<

Edited by Yamirashi, 31 October 2012 - 05:29 PM.

[Mursie]

I feel the same way.  I went to s/d last night and had some great wins against mesmers/engineers that otherwise would have likely required me running in my d/d build if the opener didnt kill.  but i ran into some thiefs that were your glass cannon backstab build...and was dead before i could really toy around with the daze function...

i'm beginning to lead more towards just being a glass cannon insta-gibber with incredible ability evade out and reset any fight.  the opening combo of d/d and dancing dagger spam is just to freaking strong/quick to pass up.  25/30/0/15/0 may be where its at.

[Dairuiner]

Ravnodaus, on 28 October 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

Also, to address an earlier poster, Static initiative regen is 1 per second isn't it? Then 2 extra per 10 seconds is +20% initiative regen, which is pretty nice.

Passive ini regen is closer to 1 every 1.5 seconds, or roughly 7 per 10 seconds. Upping that to 9 per 10 seconds is more like a +29% initiative regen. It's really good.

[Yamirashi]

Thinking about going for full berserker gear soon, feel like it could increase my dmg significantly since I seem to like the more survival based builds for the traits and such. We shall see...

[samiyuro]

I feel like for d/d I need every bit of power I can get. Can't risk prolonging fights, whereas s/d seems to have more sustain.

Yamirashi, on 31 October 2012 - 03:16 PM, said:

It is noticeable, but the increase in survival is more noticeable.

Both have there place, I can run either spec and lose fights where I felt I would have won had I been in the other spec.

I am diverting 15 in DA for 15 Trickery. It's harder to decide cuz I'm mainly running d/d...extra initiative is good cuz I need to c&d/backstab....but I also want the extra power from 25 in DA...need moar trait pts ...maybe I won't need as much initiative when I get better at landing hits. s/d seems more viable for a balanced build.

[Capn_Crass]

Kutsus, on 16 October 2012 - 04:07 AM, said:

Helm: 45 32 32 2% (16 minor vs 1% crit)
Shoulders: 34 24 24 2% (12 minor vs 1% crit)
Chest: 101 72 72 5% (14.4 minor vs 1% crit)
Gloves: 34 24 24 2% (12 minor vs 1% crit)
Legs: 67 48 48 3% (16 minor vs 1% crit)
Boots: 34 24 24 2% (12 minor vs 1% crit)
Weapons: 180 128 128 10% (12.8 minor vs 1% crit)

Earrings: 112 80 80 6% (13.33 minor vs 1% crit)
Rings: 134 96 96 6% (16 minor vs 1% crit)
Amulet: 90 64 64 5% (12.8 minor vs 1% crit)

Did you check to see if the difference in those ratios are just the tooltips being rounded off to the nearest whole number?

The primary:secondary stat ratio for all trinkets and armor is very close to 1.4:1, give or take a few tenths of a percent. The secondary:tertiary ratios aren't nearly as tight, but if the number on the tooltip is being rounded there will be a lot more variance than with the larger core stat numbers. Even then, they tend to hover right around 14:1 (or 1/10th the primary:secondary ratio). While it's possible that it's coincidence, I'd highly doubt it given ANet's "all endgame gear will be equal" manifesto and the nature of game mechanics in general.

Assuming the above 1.4:1 and 14:1 stat distribution ratios are what the game is actually using, the stats on the jewelry would look like this:

_______P_______S_______T____
Ear:..56......40.......2.857
Amu:..90......64.286...4.592
Rng:..67......47.857...3.418

...which, when rounded off, is exactly what the tooltip shows. Armor also neatly fits this assumption.

If the above is correct, there's no actual advantage to be gained by putting certain stats in certain gear slots, provided the "final product" stats remain identical. It also means the secondary and tertiary stats "lie", and you should calculate their "true" value from the primary stats when deciding gear loadout rather than take them at tooltip value.

[Kutsus]

Capn_Crass, on 02 November 2012 - 08:00 AM, said:

Did you check to see if the difference in those ratios are just the tooltips being rounded off to the nearest whole number?

The primary:secondary stat ratio for all trinkets and armor is very close to 1.4:1, give or take a few tenths of a percent. The secondary:tertiary ratios aren't nearly as tight, but if the number on the tooltip is being rounded there will be a lot more variance than with the larger core stat numbers. Even then, they tend to hover right around 14:1 (or 1/10th the primary:secondary ratio). While it's possible that it's coincidence, I'd highly doubt it given ANet's "all endgame gear will be equal" manifesto and the nature of game mechanics in general.

Assuming the above 1.4:1 and 14:1 stat distribution ratios are what the game is actually using, the stats on the jewelry would look like this:

_______P_______S_______T____
Ear:..56......40.......2.857
Amu:..90......64.286...4.592
Rng:..67......47.857...3.418

...which, when rounded off, is exactly what the tooltip shows. Armor also neatly fits this assumption.

If the above is correct, there's no actual advantage to be gained by putting certain stats in certain gear slots, provided the "final product" stats remain identical. It also means the secondary and tertiary stats "lie", and you should calculate their "true" value from the primary stats when deciding gear loadout rather than take them at tooltip value.

When you have a theory like this, put in the extra 30 seconds to test it. By your calculations, if I take off all my armor and put on 2 berserker rings with ruby orbs, I should have 43% crit damage (combined with 30% from traits).

So I did the test and removed all of my gear and had 30% crit damage naked. When I equipped 2 berserker rings, It went up to 42% implying that any rounding is actually cut off and not applied because I gained 12% instead of rounding up to 13%.

Edited by Kutsus, 02 November 2012 - 12:47 PM.

[Capn_Crass]

Kutsus, on 02 November 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

When you have a theory like this, put in the extra 30 seconds to test it.

I don't have the gear available to test it, or I would have (as it is I spent a good two hours on the TP making sure the ratios were consistent between gear slots). Also, we have no clue what numbers the game is actually using, so my examples may be (and probably are) inaccurate. It'd take a hell of a lot longer than 30 seconds to try enough combinations to suss it out for sure.

I'll test it thoroughly when I get the chance. It'll take me a while, though; I'm about as casual as you can get, and can't afford to throw away a bunch of cash testing a theory.

[Kutsus]

Capn_Crass, on 02 November 2012 - 03:23 PM, said:

I don't have the gear available to test it, or I would have (as it is I spent a good two hours on the TP making sure the ratios were consistent between gear slots). Also, we have no clue what numbers the game is actually using, so my examples may be (and probably are) inaccurate. It'd take a hell of a lot longer than 30 seconds to try enough combinations to suss it out for sure.

I'll test it thoroughly when I get the chance. It'll take me a while, though; I'm about as casual as you can get, and can't afford to throw away a bunch of cash testing a theory.

If your theory worked, the two 3.4% crit from two rings should have added up to 6.8% and rounded up to 7% during my quick test. I suspect they determine the ratios exactly how you think they should be, but the remainders get cut off instead of being included in the final stats.

If you have another item that should have X.2-X.4% or so crit damage that I can put on along with my two rings and add up to over 1% remainder total, let me know and I'll give that a test too. Actually, Legs should do it. I'll check it out when I'm back from work.

Edited by Kutsus, 02 November 2012 - 03:36 PM.

[BovinityCow]

Quote

i'm beginning to lead more towards just being a glass cannon insta-gibber with incredible ability evade out and reset any fight.  the opening combo of d/d and dancing dagger spam is just to freaking strong/quick to pass up.  25/30/0/15/0 may be where its at.

After playing around with the build, this is what I'm wondering as well.

In a setup that seems so heavily built around the idea of getting around solo, taking out targets extremely fast, and then getting out, I would think that Backstab would be a great choice.

Then again, NPC's, Dolyaks, etc don't just fall over after one Backstab the way that a lot of players do, so I can see where the CC and relative sustainability of S/D comes in to play.

[Kutsus]

BovinityCow, on 03 November 2012 - 04:55 PM, said:

After playing around with the build, this is what I'm wondering as well.

In a setup that seems so heavily built around the idea of getting around solo, taking out targets extremely fast, and then getting out, I would think that Backstab would be a great choice.

Then again, NPC's, Dolyaks, etc don't just fall over after one Backstab the way that a lot of players do, so I can see where the CC and relative sustainability of S/D comes in to play.

Also, every fight is not 1v1. SB and S/D are both much stronger weapons for situations where there are multiple targets both in damage and survivability.

[BovinityCow]

Quote

Also, every fight is not 1v1. SB and S/D are both much stronger weapons for situations where there are multiple targets both in damage and survivability.

Yah, absolutely. I suppose in a perfect world where you picked all your fights and never had objectives or zergs to worry about, D/D would be king.

That and I think I'd be lost without the extra "evade"/stun break on the Sword.

[AssimilateThis]

Are you using full Berserker for both armor and trinkets?  If not, what level of tankiness do you recommend for the S/D build i.e. what armor/health should I target?

Right now I'm using cleric's armor, carrion weapons and carrion jewelry for my D/D condi dmg build but have invaders pants and berserker daggers in the bank so would love to base something around the legs and daggers as I'm low on gold and too lazy to farm anything other than badges.  Would something like full invaders w/ scholar runes, bersekrer daggers and valk jewelry with ruby orbs work?

[Kutsus]

AssimilateThis, on 05 November 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

Are you using full Berserker for both armor and trinkets?  If not, what level of tankiness do you recommend for the S/D build i.e. what armor/health should I target?

Right now I'm using cleric's armor, carrion weapons and carrion jewelry for my D/D condi dmg build but have invaders pants and berserker daggers in the bank so would love to base something around the legs and daggers as I'm low on gold and too lazy to farm anything other than badges.  Would something like full invaders w/ scholar runes, bersekrer daggers and valk jewelry with ruby orbs work?

Once you get the hang of avoiding damage instead of tanking it, go full berserker and never look back.

[Shishusha]

Hi Kutsus,
I like 10/30/0/30/0, I'm thinking to put signet of agility than shadowstep (having it on XI), it restore my endurance, give more prec and with the VIII (signet use) of CS i could have also ini when i need, what do u think?
What about ruby orb instead of scholar? i could put them also on dagger
bye

[Kutsus]

Shishusha, on 05 November 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

Hi Kutsus,
I like 10/30/0/30/0, I'm thinking to put signet of agility than shadowstep (having it on XI), it restore my endurance, give more prec and with the VIII (signet use) of CS i could have also ini when i need, what do u think?
What about ruby orb instead of scholar? i could put them also on dagger
bye

I would never give up shadowstep. It's all of these things combined:

• Instant stunbreaker x2
  
• Long distance opener when you're immobilized to wait it out - amazing against glass warriors that catch you in bolas because you can open the gap to wait out the immobilize, then break the bull's charge if you let them land it on you.
  
• Our longest distance gap closer
  
• Our strongest kiting tool
  
• Guaranteed stomps against other thieves and Eles (sometimes mesmers even) if you're fast enough.
  
• Condition removal
  
• Integral to escaping into keeps after daggerstorm AOE dumps on zergs.
  
• Integral to escaping zergs in general

Honestly when you look at how useful it is, it's our strongest single utility and a bit overpowered in comparison to most of them.

[Brixen]

Kutsus, on 16 October 2012 - 04:07 AM, said:

Dagger/Pistol:

• This set is very powerful as well and my second favorite behind S/D. You have a solid gap closer that does good damage and blinds, very high DPS auto attack, all the glory of Heartseeker, AOE blinds, very fast daze for interrupts/stomps, and the most reliable stealth method available on a Thief weapon set. I enjoy this set far more than D/D when I want to be a backstab thief, but it must be said: The burst is NOT in line with a D/D thief. The utility, however, makes it look like a joke

What reliable stealth ability is it that you are talking about here?

[Sinful01]

Brixen, on 05 November 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

What reliable stealth ability is it that you are talking about here?

I'd assume Black Powder -> Heartseeker

[Yamirashi]

Sinful01, on 05 November 2012 - 09:11 PM, said:

I'd assume Black Powder -> Heartseeker

This^ The expense of it is high, but it doesn't rely on you actually being close to a target and hitting them. CnD can be dodged, simply miss due to not being in range or blinded, or even interrupted by a daze or knock back. With Black Powder+Heartseeker you have to pay initiative for both abilities but you can also be in the middle of a field all by yourself and still stealth.