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Tone down thiefs


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#1 Direblade

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:42 PM

The Thief, the class of many win buttons...

So, they have stupidly high burst damage, they have the best elites in the game, which are totally and utterly overpowered, one makes them immune to all cc while they whirl around poisoning and crippling everything, the other spawns two high dps high controlling pets that last way too long and deal too much damage.

Then they have the stealth spam which wouldn't be too bad if it wasn't for the fact that they can do it too often and the bug that allows them to stay in it (to other players atleast) which allows them to spam their combo out without risk.

then you  have the fact that you cannot run from a thief or catch a thief.. nothing you do will get you close enough to attack them or get away from them.

And the fact their trait tree has the best synergy in the game, the most useful and powerful pvp masters.

Lets put it this way... anyone with half a brain can kill with a thief due to the ease  and pure power of the class, but people who can actually play the class are totally unkillable and can solo 2 other well played players with no issue what so ever maybe more..

the class is just way too powerful, or the other classes are just too weak when compared..

#2 Lordkrall

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:46 PM

Oh look. Another one that keeps getting owned by thiefs!

This is simply an  issue of Learnis Playicus.

#3 Sword Hammer Axe

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 12:48 PM

I'd rather say improve the other classes elite skills so they feel like actual elites. My Ranger is fine, my Warrior is ok, my Elementalist needs a serious boost...

#4 Playpad

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 01:14 PM

i just can't believe i actually opened this thread.

Edited by Playpad, 16 October 2012 - 01:15 PM.


#5 Scarlet_Blossom

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:44 PM

You're bad and you should feel bad for opening this thread.

#6 Sinn Longhole

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:49 PM

I hate trolls...

#7 Hummingbird

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 04:53 PM

And posting that you hate trolls is going to make them dissapear, Yes.
Elementalists are strong aswel, if played right, not many people do play it right- to that other guy

#8 Katsuragisama

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Posted 16 October 2012 - 10:53 PM

View PostScarlet_Blossom, on 16 October 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

You're bad and you should feel bad for opening this thread.

^This. Is this some unicorn fabled 30/30/30/30/30 spec with 10 utility slots?

View PostHummingbird, on 16 October 2012 - 04:53 PM, said:

And posting that you hate trolls is going to make them dissapear, Yes.
Elementalists are strong aswel, if played right, not many people do play it right- to that other guy

I've only seen 3 Elementalist that were very good.

Edit:  Also, why do most not understand the plural of "ief"?  Thieves...  So tired of seeing that.

Edited by Katsuragisama, 16 October 2012 - 11:00 PM.


#9 Falhawk

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 08:09 AM

I have no issues with thiefs on my mesmer. Sometimes I get bursted down quickly but most often it is due to other factors, such as being outnumbered, having cooldowns or just poor play from my side. I actually felt the same way as you at first but then I decided to roll a thief. I did not feel overpowered, though I admit that its easy to burst someone down. If something should be toned down it should be the quickness boon.

Another thing: I am so tired of seeing all these negative replies from people. "uuh, its a troll",  "L2P" or "noob" bla bla bla. Maybe the OP just got killed by a thief and sees things in a wrong perspective, but would you all reply like this in real life? Whats wrong with constructive critism rather than just critism.

My advice to OP: roll a thief and get familiar with their skills. Its a matter of knowing your enemy. Learn the animations of a thief and learn when to dodge/use a counter skill. Don't stand still when a thief is around. Equip a mix of stun breakers, stability skills, retreat and/or invul skills. My last advice is don't go full glass cannon if you are not fast and 100% in control of your character.

All the best.

View PostScarlet_Blossom, on 16 October 2012 - 04:44 PM, said:

You're bad and you should feel bad for opening this thread.

You are bad and should not have made this reply. Learn some manners

View PostSinn Longhole, on 16 October 2012 - 04:49 PM, said:

I hate trolls...

And trolls probably hate you too. They will eat you.

View PostPlaypad, on 16 October 2012 - 01:14 PM, said:

i just can't believe i actually opened this thread.

And still, you did. Wow, what happened?

View PostLordkrall, on 16 October 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Oh look. Another one that keeps getting owned by thiefs!

This is simply an  issue of Learnis Playicus.

Oh look, another arrogant answer...

#10 Eon Lilu

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 08:21 AM

View PostDireblade, on 16 October 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

The Thief, the class of many win buttons...

So, they have stupidly high burst damage, they have the best elites in the game, which are totally and utterly overpowered, one makes them immune to all cc while they whirl around poisoning and crippling everything, the other spawns two high dps high controlling pets that last way too long and deal too much damage.

Then they have the stealth spam which wouldn't be too bad if it wasn't for the fact that they can do it too often and the bug that allows them to stay in it (to other players atleast) which allows them to spam their combo out without risk.

then you  have the fact that you cannot run from a thief or catch a thief.. nothing you do will get you close enough to attack them or get away from them.

And the fact their trait tree has the best synergy in the game, the most useful and powerful pvp masters.

Lets put it this way... anyone with half a brain can kill with a thief due to the ease  and pure power of the class, but people who can actually play the class are totally unkillable and can solo 2 other well played players with no issue what so ever maybe more..

the class is just way too powerful, or the other classes are just too weak when compared..

Your 100% correct but expect alot of trolling and flaming come your way, the problem is I think the dev behind the thief is keeping it overpowered, it's laughable how arena net are so clueless when it comes to profession balance, its why alot of players have left the game already. There is really crappy profession balance.

#11 Aeyden12

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:34 AM

I'm a thief and love facerolling everyone..:). Class is fine imo ^^

Edited by Aeyden12, 17 October 2012 - 09:34 AM.


#12 Eliyahu

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 10:57 AM

Posted Image

#13 Falhawk

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 11:04 AM

View PostEon Lilu, on 17 October 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

Your 100% correct but expect alot of trolling and flaming come your way, the problem is I think the dev behind the thief is keeping it overpowered, it's laughable how arena net are so clueless when it comes to profession balance, its why alot of players have left the game already. There is really crappy profession balance.

Its a noobkiller profession, just like the 100blades warrior but against skilled foes they are not that owerpowered. But it is a strong class, no arguing there. I don't agree that balancing is as bad as you describe. Are people really leaving the game because of this? Where's the proof of that?

#14 Taleon

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 12:38 PM

View PostDireblade, on 16 October 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

The Thief, the class of many win buttons...

So, they have stupidly high burst damage, they have the best elites in the game, which are totally and utterly overpowered, one makes them immune to all cc while they whirl around poisoning and crippling everything, the other spawns two high dps high controlling pets that last way too long and deal too much damage.

Then they have the stealth spam which wouldn't be too bad if it wasn't for the fact that they can do it too often and the bug that allows them to stay in it (to other players atleast) which allows them to spam their combo out without risk.

then you  have the fact that you cannot run from a thief or catch a thief.. nothing you do will get you close enough to attack them or get away from them.

And the fact their trait tree has the best synergy in the game, the most useful and powerful pvp masters.

Lets put it this way... anyone with half a brain can kill with a thief due to the ease  and pure power of the class, but people who can actually play the class are totally unkillable and can solo 2 other well played players with no issue what so ever maybe more..

the class is just way too powerful, or the other classes are just too weak when compared..

Although I agree, there are many things in the Thief Class that need some toning down, reading your post only proves to me that you know very little about the class mate.
From your own words above-
-Dagger Storm can be CC'ed, in fact it can be stopped within secs of being activated, but not by the Thief starting it....
-There is no control over the add on two spawns in Thieves Guild, they attack on their own, normally targeting off the Thief itself
-All Stealth abilities have a CD on reapplying stealth, being that once stealth is broken, there is a window before it can be reapplied.  A bug may be present ( unknown to me honestly ) but if a bug, will be fixed having the abilities work as intended.  And there is a limit to how many times any Thief can use stealth, it is called initiative.
-Unless spec'ed for movement, many Thieves can be caught by a number of classes easily or a player can out run a Thief

You have gotten some wonderful suggestions already in this post.  Learning what animations lead into what, is probably one of the best ones I have seen here.  Most every animation can give you a tell tale sign of what the Thief is doing, and with experience, how to counter it.
True, they do run from initiative, NOT cool downs on their abilities, this allows them to unload some heavy front loaded dmg, but if done in this manner, will leave them extremely weak afterwards.  If you know which abilities to avoid, you will find the Thief running for the hills to save their own hide because they have no attack left to us on you.

#15 prince vingador

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 12:48 PM

it doesnt matter they are weak after they use all iniciative..my problem is only in 2 points... Perma stealth...and dealing 14k in 2 seconds.and if they dont kill u they go into stealth and they are gone.

#16 Taleon

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 01:00 PM

View Postprince vingador, on 17 October 2012 - 12:48 PM, said:

it doesnt matter they are weak after they use all iniciative..my problem is only in 2 points... Perma stealth...and dealing 14k in 2 seconds.and if they dont kill u they go into stealth and they are gone.

Perma stealth I would assume is a bug.  The longest I can maintain stealth on the move would be near 8-10 secs ( with out the help of another Thief ) and this would also use up most of my abilities slotted.
As for getting hit for 14k in 2 secs, with experience you can avoid this altogether and is in fact spoken how to do such in these PVP forums.  You just need to know what the Thief is trying to achieve and how he is doing it ^^

#17 Symbiont

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 01:03 PM

after all the nerf because of the massive QQ, yet again trying to QQ your way to victory, instead of countering their burst build.

to the OP, what profession do you play and what spec did you try against them? maybe you are just a terrible player?

#18 Coren

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 01:30 PM

Reminds me of how people complained how assassins were OP in GW factions, until people learned how to fight them.

I dont like thieves all that much, but the limited PvP experience I had against them wasn't bad. Killed a few one on one as a engineer.

#19 Red_Falcon

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 01:50 PM

And yet another no-toughness no-antiburstCD low rank noob makes a Thief complaint thread.
Honestly guys, in all freakin' honesty: countering Thieves and GS Warriors is the first step of learning PvP in GW2.
Until you die to them, you are a PvP noob. Period. End. No debate.

Thieves and 100B Warriors are there to divide the bads from the decent-and-above PvPers, and they do a heck of a good job at it.
You either cross this line and get into the higher ranks or stand in the commoner ranks, perhaps rerolling a Thief/Warrior yourself so you can own other woefully bad nublets.

It's called natural selection.
Some learn and evolve, some cannot and remain at the bottom of the pyramid.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 17 October 2012 - 01:52 PM.


#20 Vodrin

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 01:55 PM

View PostTaleon, on 17 October 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Perma stealth I would assume is a bug.  The longest I can maintain stealth on the move would be near 8-10 secs ( with out the help of another Thief ) and this would also use up most of my abilities slotted.
As for getting hit for 14k in 2 secs, with experience you can avoid this altogether and is in fact spoken how to do such in these PVP forums.  You just need to know what the Thief is trying to achieve and how he is doing it ^^

Earlier in the games life latency issues did indeed cause thieves to seem to be in stealth constantly while still attacking, and bugs allowed combo field stealthing while the revealed debuff was on the thief.  For the most part, that's no longer possible in structured PvP, and you will only see long duration stealth when a thief is not attacking. Stealth can still do some screwy things when latency goes up though (targetable circle on the ground for instance).

It sometimes appears otherwise because they shadow step to a target, stealth, hit backstab and immediately shadow step away before appearing entirely and only return after "revealed" has worn off.  If the spot they teleported in from is out of your line of site, they will appear to be stealthed the whole time they attack you, but they are not.

The one thing that most needs to be "adjusted" on the thief is the ability to start cloak and dagger then hit steal without interrupting it.  It really allows a powerful burst sequence with very little skill required, and very little ability for a target to defend themselves.  The target will eat mug, c&d, and backstab with almost 0 chance to avoid the damage if the thief runs devourer venom. That's a guaranteed 10K damage against a medium or better toughness target without actually needing to line up an attack, and can hit for quite a bit more than that.  Most thieves will follow that by spamming dancing dagger or heartseeker until they are out of initiative or the target is dead.  Then they will stealth or shadow step to escape, wait till their cooldowns are up and do it all over again.  It's a completely lame playstyle and needs to go.

Otherwise thieves are ok with the possible exception of thieves guild elite (would make a lot more sense to remove the scorpion wire from the melee thief and lower the cooldown), and the warrior axe steal (bit too much damage, although it can be easily interrupted if you know what you are doing against it).

Edited by Vodrin, 18 October 2012 - 05:34 PM.


#21 Eon Lilu

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 01:59 PM

Thiefs need cooldowns. Thiefs need longer stealth cooldown. Nuff sed.

#22 Taleon

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 02:07 PM

Yeah,
I was not sure if people where complaining about rendering or miss seeing the movement of a thief as perma stealth.  In Wv3, it is difficult to locate a thief that just went into stealth or coming out of it because of the rendering issues of ANet.
The use of ports is another thing completely, because not everyone knows where to look for the thief and expect them to just "stand" next to the person they are killing ^^

#23 Vodrin

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 04:21 PM

View PostEon Lilu, on 17 October 2012 - 01:59 PM, said:

Thiefs need cooldowns. Thiefs need longer stealth cooldown. Nuff sed.

Extending the duration of the revealed debuff (which I am in favor of) would indeed accomplish the later of your statements.  The former would require entirely reworking the class from scratch, something I do not think Anet wants to do just yet.  Extending the period thieves are exposed from stealth would definitely push them more towards balance though.

#24 Shatteredz

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:10 PM

How about buffing thief's counter(necro), fixing the rendering problem and fix the buggs on the other classes, and the see if the class still needs nerfs/buffs?

#25 Rytlock Bigpaw

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 05:24 PM

backstab and warrior rifle F1 need like 50% damage decreased!

I only do sPvP with thief, I am retarded and can kill everyone with a thief pressing only 3 or 4 bottons. I am also making my warrior so i can enjoy another op class, oh and I am also working on the legendary weapon so anyone can see my skilless warrior killing everyone.

Doesn´t matter how well I play with my elementalist if I don´t die in 1 shot I die in less than 2 seconds...with 3 orbs of power (+15% all stats) my glass cannon elementalist does 5k damage max and receive 10k. So I kinda quit playing with it, now I play thief or warrior and I am happy being a retard =)

#26 adra12

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:06 PM

View PostRytlock Bigpaw, on 17 October 2012 - 05:24 PM, said:

backstab and warrior rifle F1 need like 50% damage decreased!

I only do sPvP with thief, I am retarded and can kill everyone with a thief pressing only 3 or 4 bottons. I am also making my warrior so i can enjoy another op class, oh and I am also working on the legendary weapon so anyone can see my skilless warrior killing everyone.

Doesn´t matter how well I play with my elementalist if I don´t die in 1 shot I die in less than 2 seconds...with 3 orbs of power (+15% all stats) my glass cannon elementalist does 5k damage max and receive 10k. So I kinda quit playing with it, now I play thief or warrior and I am happy being a retard =)


Your glass cannon elementalist does 5k to up to 6 enemies which = 30k > 15k.

I'm sorry but just like every other post this one wants thieves balanced in 1 v 1 and this game is not meant to be that way. Backstab thieves are 1 trick ponies. If you get the jump on them or avoid their combo they are toast. Those thieves are paper thin and the only thing that keeps them alive is mobility, stun/immobile/knockdown them and they won;t survive the duration because the insta-kill builds require every slot and leave no room for stun breaks.

Good thieves should be a pain to deal with 1 v 1 because that is the greatest strength in the game and their designed role.

Find a couple mates or carry some control and you will spend a lot less time worry about lone wolf thieves.

I do agree that the rendering issues are compounding the value of stealth at the current time in WvWvW though.

#27 Athletic

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:22 PM

If I see a thief coming and have some cooldowns on, no matter which class I'm playing I'll easily kill him. If I don't see him, which is usually the case i tend to get 2 shot by 5K steals and 12K backstabs.

So I'm mixed I don't think thiefs are too powerfull, but I don't like class designs whose sole purpose is too instagib ppl.

#28 Al Shamari

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:29 PM

TLDR; QQ'ing

#29 Vodrin

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:37 PM

View PostShatteredz, on 17 October 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

How about buffing thief's counter(necro), fixing the rendering problem and fix the buggs on the other classes, and the see if the class still needs nerfs/buffs?

That's a great suggestion.

In addition to that I will say that I still think it is a bad idea to allow the thief to start an attack and then steal.  It makes insta-gibbing a target far too easy for a glass cannon d/d build, and that's the sort of thing that really turns players off to PvP and makes people come to the forums to complain.

#30 MattVid

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:45 PM

The only issue I have seen with Theif is in WvW and the lag/rendering issues it has. There have been so many times where I will see someone go invisible, then they will pull off like a full attack sequence on me before appearing. That needs to be fixed.

Other than that though, I don't see the class being that unbalanced. Yea, it does a lot of damage, but you are also wearing wet tissue paper armor. My Theif dies A LOT more than my Guardian does. 1v1 it is a very powerful class, but in any other situation it usually just dies in 2 seconds. And again, this all very much still depends on your build, skill level and gear.




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