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Tone down thiefs


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#31 prince vingador

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 09:53 AM

once again i would like to say that..thieves shouldnt be able to kill any 1 in 2 seconds,it doesnt matter they are useless after that..its not fun ...no wonder people hate thieves in teams.they just want to kill single players and be useless after that.

#32 RecentlyTaken

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 10:23 AM

There needs to be anti-stealth mechanics in this game (ie, abilities that reveal or cause a de-stealth). I don't mean damage, should break stealth or something but there should be at least 1 utility skill for each class that can force a de-stealth. An example for a warrior one would be an aoe shout/taunt that forced everything to attack you (which would indirectly break stealth). This would also be useful for pve.... but thats another story. At the moment its basically uncounterable; you kind of just pick a direction, mash out some damage skills and hope your lucky, or else you swap to a shield and pray you block at the right moment (assuming the thief doesn't just flee as you stand there)

#33 MrForz

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 10:30 AM

Mweh, only thing I find annoying is the over-popularity of them in PvP and that's it.

#34 Shinimas

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 11:39 AM

View PostAeyden12, on 17 October 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

I'm a thief and love facerolling everyone.. :). Class is fine imo ^^

Really? I couldn't stand playing the Thief. Wanted to make it my main, but... ugh, just too OP. And I usually just play w/e I feel like not being concerned with balance too much, but the Thief in this game is too much, I just don't feel any satisfaction when I win. Don't know how you do this.

#35 The Servant

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 07:06 PM

View PostMattVid, on 18 October 2012 - 05:45 PM, said:

The only issue I have seen with Theif is in WvW and the lag/rendering issues it has.

And 19k damage in 1,5 seconds is not? ...

#36 Rrafaz

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 07:21 PM

View PostVodrin, on 17 October 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

Earlier in the games life latency issues did indeed cause thieves to seem to be in stealth constantly while still attacking, and bugs allowed combo field stealthing while the revealed debuff was on the thief.  For the most part, that's no longer possible in structured PvP, and you will only see long duration stealth when a thief is not attacking. Stealth can still do some screwy things when latency goes up though (targetable circle on the ground for instance).

It sometimes appears otherwise because they shadow step to a target, stealth, hit backstab and immediately shadow step away before appearing entirely and only return after "revealed" has worn off.  If the spot they teleported in from is out of your line of site, they will appear to be stealthed the whole time they attack you, but they are not.

The one thing that most needs to be "adjusted" on the thief is the ability to start cloak and dagger then hit steal without interrupting it.  It really allows a powerful burst sequence with very little skill required, and very little ability for a target to defend themselves.  The target will eat mug, c&d, and backstab with almost 0 chance to avoid the damage if the thief runs devourer venom. That's a guaranteed 10K damage against a medium or better toughness target without actually needing to line up an attack, and can hit for quite a bit more than that.  Most thieves will follow that by spamming dancing dagger or heartseeker until they are out of initiative or the target is dead.  Then they will stealth or shadow step to escape, wait till their cooldowns are up and do it all over again.  It's a completely lame playstyle and needs to go.

Otherwise thieves are ok with the possible exception of thieves guild elite (would make a lot more sense to remove the scorpion wire from the melee thief and lower the cooldown), and the warrior axe steal (bit too much damage, although it can be easily interrupted if you know what you are doing against it).

This. The only fixes we need are the stealth bug, toning down of the warrior axe steal, and big nerfing of that instagib cooldown thief style play. It's brainless and makes those of us that actually play without abusing it look bad.

And possibly even a bigger revealed duration. I'd be okay with that.

#37 ßoß

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 10:23 PM

View PostRrafaz, on 19 October 2012 - 07:21 PM, said:

This. The only fixes we need are the stealth bug, toning down of the warrior axe steal, and big nerfing of that instagib cooldown thief style play. It's brainless and makes those of us that actually play without abusing it look bad.

And possibly even a bigger revealed duration. I'd be okay with that.

It isn't to bad in TPvp but in hot join SPvp its a problem I suppose, nobody runs anything but the glass cannon builds and I will say I think its getting worse because of all the complaining people are seeing it discussed so much they have to try it, just today on my warrior the opposing team had 6 thief's and my team had 4, everyone of them Backstab/Heartseekers.

Id say it is annoying but I think its mainly the Quanity of thiefs in each game over quality, wheres the fun in spamming 2 ill never know but if it makes them happy then play the hell out of it until it gets nerfed, there are plenty of qulaity builds with thiefs that arent some gimmick 15k backstab spam 2 crap that everyone ignores because there too lazy to try something different that may be a little more challenging.

In the end my main problem is I think it kinda makes Spvp a little bland when in the majority of games all you see is Thiefs and Mesmers filing 60-75% of the spots a game. Honestly any game that is filled with 75% of a certain class will get boring after a while. I will say though I think there only a small part of the problem in pvp, I mean imo things like Treb and Sharks help contribute to an average pvp game and we could also use a few more game types besides point capping, no options makes a average pvp game even more bland. Lets be honest 4 maps and 1 game type is gonna get old real quick.

#38 Garethh

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 11:13 PM

View Postprince vingador, on 19 October 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

once again i would like to say that..thieves shouldnt be able to kill any 1 in 2 seconds,it doesnt matter they are useless after that..its not fun ...no wonder people hate thieves in teams.they just want to kill single players and be useless after that.
Its not the 2 seconds (i don't like that kind of play style but I can live with it) so much as that they go around the base survivability every class is given.
Dodge rolling.
Every other class makes a notable animation so evading its combo is possible... thieves don't really before their 12~k spike that can stun...
Both threw stealth and steal.
That's the terrible part about it.

Edited by Garethh, 19 October 2012 - 11:14 PM.


#39 Asomal

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 11:40 PM

I just want those fotm noobs gone! Thieves,imo,are fine and balanced in numbers, It just needs to be hard to master as the elementalist...

#40 Wifflebottom

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 12:09 AM

I made a thief on a whim yesterday and I am shocked at how much more fun everything is. I'm not even running a backstab, HS, or pistol whip build. I traited in to shadow arts, acrobatics, and trickery dishing out ridiculous amount of damage with shortbow+dagger/dagger while I evade all damage with death blossom and if I do get hit it doesn't matter because I'm constantly regenerating health from the signet of malice+caltrop bleeds+death blossom. I think the class works fine BUT the other classes all need to be buffed up to the thief's level, their traits synchronize very well together and they have a lot of effective builds.

Other classes get stuck with lots of garbage traits. I don't want to see the thief get smacked with the nerf bat the other classes just need fixing, especially Ele (but I have faced like 3 incredible elementalists). Maybe they should make pistol whip spam less effective, maybe shorten stealth, and lessen the damage backstab does, no one should be able to take over half of a toughness/vit traited person's health with one skill. It's way too easy to do well using only one or two skills

#41 ßoß

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 01:13 AM

View PostMr_Original, on 20 October 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

I made a thief on a whim yesterday and I am shocked at how much more fun everything is. I'm not even running a backstab, HS, or pistol whip build. I traited in to shadow arts, acrobatics, and trickery dishing out ridiculous amount of damage with shortbow+dagger/dagger while I evade all damage with death blossom and if I do get hit it doesn't matter because I'm constantly regenerating health from the signet of malice+caltrop bleeds+death blossom. I think the class works fine BUT the other classes all need to be buffed up to the thief's level, their traits synchronize very well together and they have a lot of effective builds.

Other classes get stuck with lots of garbage traits. I don't want to see the thief get smacked with the nerf bat the other classes just need fixing, especially Ele (but I have faced like 3 incredible elementalists). Maybe they should make pistol whip spam less effective, maybe shorten stealth, and lessen the damage backstab does, no one should be able to take over half of a toughness/vit traited person's health with one skill. It's way too easy to do well using only one or two skills

I agree with this, There are so many thief traits that work so well that you can choose from multiple different builds and be successful. With other classes your kinda boxed into a corner and have to use 1 or 2 of the top builds or you gonna have a tough time.

#42 Rrafaz

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 01:21 AM

View PostMr_Original, on 20 October 2012 - 12:09 AM, said:

I made a thief on a whim yesterday and I am shocked at how much more fun everything is. I'm not even running a backstab, HS, or pistol whip build. I traited in to shadow arts, acrobatics, and trickery dishing out ridiculous amount of damage with shortbow+dagger/dagger while I evade all damage with death blossom and if I do get hit it doesn't matter because I'm constantly regenerating health from the signet of malice+caltrop bleeds+death blossom. I think the class works fine BUT the other classes all need to be buffed up to the thief's level, their traits synchronize very well together and they have a lot of effective builds.

Other classes get stuck with lots of garbage traits. I don't want to see the thief get smacked with the nerf bat the other classes just need fixing, especially Ele (but I have faced like 3 incredible elementalists). Maybe they should make pistol whip spam less effective, maybe shorten stealth, and lessen the damage backstab does, no one should be able to take over half of a toughness/vit traited person's health with one skill. It's way too easy to do well using only one or two skills

I don't think that buffing up classes to the thief's level is good. The thief should be nerfed down to the other classes levels.

That's just how I feel, of course. A paced, thought out battle of wits is much more satisfying and enjoyable than a fast, gimmicky battle of zerg burst in any pvp scenario.

#43 Typhoris

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 02:20 AM

I hope thieves never get nerfed. I just made the switch from warrior to thief and thief is much easier to play for me. It's too fun being a cannon without the glass for once, and I'm pretty much immortal in WvW. It feels too punishing playing other classes. It's very relaxing and fun to play thief due to how strong it is in just about all pvp aspects.

#44 Garethh

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 08:05 AM

View PostTyphoris, on 20 October 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

I hope thieves never get nerfed. I just made the switch from warrior to thief and thief is much easier to play for me. It's too fun being a cannon without the glass for once, and I'm pretty much immortal in WvW. It feels too punishing playing other classes. It's very relaxing and fun to play thief due to how strong it is in just about all pvp aspects.
Man if I get you, your're basically describing what makes a class OP yet saying its cool because you play it now.
Probly not gonna go over too well with the devs though tragically, for you I guess.
:P

Partly I agree though, allot of other classes just aren't given decent ways to cope in combat short of very specific specs, thief in general tends to come with a few catches for every conjunction thrown their way in every spec.  That shouldn't just be innately only to thieves though, and ele's... it makes far better gameplay, having the majority of specs having ways to deal with, at least, base scenarios so combat is more dynamic for everyone, and well not so short/spikey so often.
That should be something built into every class, that was the point of abilities being combined into weapon sets and classes having specific mechanics, at least that is what I hoped they were for...

Edited by Garethh, 21 October 2012 - 06:38 PM.


#45 Garethh

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 08:19 AM

View PostRrafaz, on 20 October 2012 - 01:21 AM, said:

I don't think that buffing up classes to the thief's level is good. The thief should be nerfed down to the other classes levels.

That's just how I feel, of course. A paced, thought out battle of wits is much more satisfying and enjoyable than a fast, gimmicky battle of zerg burst in any pvp scenario.
He never said combat wouldn't be full of 'thought out battles of wits' if every class had a fair number of effective, diverse builds.
Those things aren't mutually exculsive.
From implication, you seem to just be refering to  the insta-gib backstab spec as the thief level of balance atm, but that pretty much is the only spec in the class that can cause anything other than that longer fight (godly reflexes or right CD or lose).
Most every other thief spec just leads to longer drawn out fights that you really should know what your doing and plan ahead in.  Utilities like caltrops/assassins signet exc. are things that you do need a clear and specific answer for in your spec or you are in trouble, so yeah I can see where a lil toning down in a few abilities could be worthwile.
(other than those lil hickups it seems to be what you want so as you can see, what you say confuses me a bit)

Edited by Garethh, 20 October 2012 - 08:27 AM.


#46 Typhoris

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 10:44 AM

View PostGarethh, on 20 October 2012 - 08:05 AM, said:

Man if I get you, your're basically describing what makes a class OP yet saying its cool because you play it now.
Probly not gonna go over too well with the devs though tragically, for you I guess.
:P

Partly I agree though, allot of other classes just aren't given decent ways to cope in combat, thief tends to come with a few catches for every extra conjunction someone throws at you.  That shouldn't just be innately only to ele's and thieves though... it makes far better gameplay having ways to deal with scenarios so combat is actually more dynamic for everyone, and well not so short/spikey so often.
That should be something built into every class, that was the point of abilities being combined into weapon sets and class mechanics, at least that is what I hoped they were for...

I get you... but I enjoy being very OP with minimal effort :)

#47 Thoran23

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:32 AM

View PostEon Lilu, on 17 October 2012 - 08:21 AM, said:

Your 100% correct but expect alot of trolling and flaming come your way, the problem is I think the dev behind the thief is keeping it overpowered, it's laughable how arena net are so clueless when it comes to profession balance, its why alot of players have left the game already. There is really crappy profession balance.

this.

#48 Therion

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:45 AM

The amount of time they can spend in stealth needs a dramatic decrease. It's impossible to effectively balance a class which can spend the majority of a fight invisible. Of course that isn't the extent of the problem, but it's the first step in a solution.

It's especially messed up when one of the things ANet emphasized when announcing the thief class was that they wouldn't be an analogue to the WoW rogue or DAoC stealther classes which are permanently stealthed, but effectively they're so close as makes no difference.

Once that's fixed, ANet can look at adjusting their damage output and go from there.

Edited by Therion, 23 October 2012 - 06:48 AM.


#49 Thoran23

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:52 AM

My problem is this daggerstorm in WvW, its stability, reflects projectiles and does tons of aoe damage on a low cooldown, WTF?
Srsly its way too powerfull esp compared to other elites. its impact is just too high, we have to react to a single thief all the time while we have no problem with fighting complete zergs until someone finds his number 10 button.

Edited by Thoran23, 23 October 2012 - 06:55 AM.


#50 Lordkrall

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:55 AM

View PostThoran23, on 23 October 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

My problem is this daggerstorm in WvW, its stability, reflects projectiles and does tons of aoe damage on a low cooldown, WTF?
Srsly its way too powerfull esp compared to other elites.

And yet it is very easy to counter if you know what you are doing.

#51 Thoran23

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 09:17 AM

View PostLordkrall, on 23 October 2012 - 06:55 AM, said:

And yet it is very easy to counter if you know what you are doing.

no its not easy to counter stability + projectile reflection combined with huge aoe damage.
WTF is easy to counter on that? It just cant be that one single enemy, pressing oone stupid button needs actually more attention then the rest of his zerg.

But then again, youre a blind fanboy why do i even argue with you? Everything is fine plz go ahead.

Edited by Thoran23, 23 October 2012 - 09:17 AM.


#52 Ruufio

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:28 AM

Can't the stability just be removed with boon removal?

#53 bonx

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 11:37 AM

View PostThoran23, on 23 October 2012 - 06:52 AM, said:

My problem is this daggerstorm in WvW, its stability, reflects projectiles and does tons of aoe damage on a low cooldown, WTF?
Srsly its way too powerfull esp compared to other elites. its impact is just too high, we have to react to a single thief all the time while we have no problem with fighting complete zergs until someone finds his number 10 button.

l2immobilize and l2play.

Edited by bonx, 23 October 2012 - 11:38 AM.


#54 Lilitu

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 03:39 PM

View PostTyphoris, on 20 October 2012 - 02:20 AM, said:

I hope thieves never get nerfed. I just made the switch from warrior to thief and thief is much easier to play for me. It's too fun being a cannon without the glass for once, and I'm pretty much immortal in WvW. It feels too punishing playing other classes. It's very relaxing and fun to play thief due to how strong it is in just about all pvp aspects.
This.

I'm getting better results, with less effort, more enjoyable gameplay and better survivability (escapes, stealth) than i ever did on my warrior, and i considered myself a good warrior. I play to win, and playing any class other than thief almost feels like handicapping myself.


#55 Asomal

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 04:00 PM

View PostThoran23, on 23 October 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

no its not easy to counter stability + projectile reflection combined with huge aoe damage.
WTF is easy to counter on that? It just cant be that one single enemy, pressing oone stupid button needs actually more attention then the rest of his zerg.

But then again, youre a blind fanboy why do i even argue with you? Everything is fine plz go ahead.

Dagger storm does "huge aoe damage" against multiple opponents. It's pretty worthless in a 1x1 situation unless you really want the stability or the reflect projectiles (and it does wonders against mesmers and minion masters or even venom share thieves).

#56 Vodrin

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 05:16 PM

View PostTherion, on 23 October 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

The amount of time they can spend in stealth needs a dramatic decrease. It's impossible to effectively balance a class which can spend the majority of a fight invisible. Of course that isn't the extent of the problem, but it's the first step in a solution.

It's especially messed up when one of the things ANet emphasized when announcing the thief class was that they wouldn't be an analogue to the WoW rogue or DAoC stealther classes which are permanently stealthed, but effectively they're so close as makes no difference.

Once that's fixed, ANet can look at adjusting their damage output and go from there.

The problem that causes this really doesn't have much to do with the class design.  It's a rendering problem that causes the thief to stay invisible for 2-3 seconds after stealth has worn off.  The problem is that they may only be visible for 3 seconds before repeating shadow step and stealth causing them to disappear again.  This happens with all classes that use stealth or teleports, but is less obvious with other classes due to them not being able to use stealth repeatedly.

Bottom line, fix the games bugs then balance the class mechanic once it actually works correctly.

#57 Thoran23

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:29 PM

View Postbonx, on 23 October 2012 - 11:37 AM, said:

l2immobilize and l2play.

How on a ranged class?
Youre so pathetic.

#58 Kutsus

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 09:40 PM

View PostThoran23, on 23 October 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

no its not easy to counter stability + projectile reflection combined with huge aoe damage.
WTF is easy to counter on that? It just cant be that one single enemy, pressing oone stupid button needs actually more attention then the rest of his zerg.

But then again, youre a blind fanboy why do i even argue with you? Everything is fine plz go ahead.

Immobilize, boon removal, melee attacks, ground AOEs. If your whole group can't handle a single thief, you have a lot more issues than just thieves. The daggers are random projectiles that very rarely hit in 1v1 scenarios unless you let the thief stand on top of you - in zergs the overall damage is high but not life threatening to any single person - Unless they're dumb enough to spam ranged attacks against the refelct and kill themselves. Are you one of said ranged attackers? Your QQ makes a lot more sense, if so.

View PostThoran23, on 23 October 2012 - 08:29 PM, said:

How on a ranged class?
Youre so pathetic.

If you're a ranged class and it's a 1v1, just stay away from them until it's over. The daggers spread randomly and rarely hit you unless you let them stand on top of you.

If it's not a 1v1, use whatever ground targets you have and stay away from them while asking a couple of melee to autoattack him. It only takes a few hits before they are dead or have to run away. Especially if they get immobilized then 100b.

Edited by Kutsus, 23 October 2012 - 09:43 PM.


#59 Majic

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 10:52 PM

The entire Thief profession's Initiative mechanic is built around delivering a rapid series of devastating attacks without inherent cooldowns.

Almost every PvP-oriented complaint about the class revolves around the fact that Thieves deliver a rapid series of devastating attacks without inherent cooldowns.

I'm not seeing a lot of room for reconciliation on this point.

#60 ChubbyRain

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 10:55 PM

they need to rework stealth.




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