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Tone down thiefs


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#61 Therion

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:28 AM

If by rework you mean severely nerf, sure. They shouldn't be able to spend more than half their time in stealth, and it should be even less if they're actively in combat. The way it stands right now is absurd.

#62 Shatteredz

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 01:31 PM

View PostTherion, on 24 October 2012 - 01:28 AM, said:

If by rework you mean severely nerf, sure. They shouldn't be able to spend more than half their time in stealth, and it should be even less if they're actively in combat. The way it stands right now is absurd.

Tell me how this works without traiting for stealth and using every utility slot you have for stealth skills?
Yes some thieves are build around stealth, but 95% of the builds aint in stealth more then half of the time.

#63 Budzasty

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 05:23 PM

View PostMajic, on 23 October 2012 - 10:52 PM, said:

The entire Thief profession's Initiative mechanic is built around delivering a rapid series of devastating attacks without inherent cooldowns.

Almost every PvP-oriented complaint about the class revolves around the fact that Thieves deliver a rapid series of devastating attacks without inherent cooldowns.

I'm not seeing a lot of room for reconciliation on this point.
I think the complaints(those valid ones) are not only about burst itself, but also about stealth/initiative system and opportunities those create:

1. You can choose which fights to fight due to stealth and mobility.
2. In combat stealth means lots of avoidance options.
3. Burst damage with element of suprise(again stealth).
4. Minor initiative loss isn't big enough punishment for being blocked/evaded. Moa evade means 240s cooldown. Backstab evade means another backstab as it doesn't even unstealth thief.

Any other class built around burst doesn't have ALL of these:

1. You can see them and catch them off guard, all they can do is run. They can't go around corner stealth and get 3-4 second window of advantage.
2. They can't pop stealth in combat getting another few free dodges(not all attacks will and can hit). Furthermore thief doesn't have to hit you while stealthed, which means he won't get revealed debuff, which means chain defensive stealth with just CnD. This can be huuuuge defensive advantage.
3. Since you can see their animation it's easier to learn their big attacks and defend properly. Blind attack against stealthed thief leaves you vurnerable to burst. Blind defence against stealthed thief gives him advantage of just waiting out. Win-win for thief.
4. Warrior that misses 100 blades lost his burst for 8 seconds.Moa evaded means 240s cooldown. Thief can and will just go for another backstab...

tl;dr Thief is and will be broken class as long as he has all three - stealth, burst and initiative system.

#64 Shatteredz

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 08:27 PM

Just gonna quote myself here

View PostShatteredz, on 24 October 2012 - 01:34 PM, said:

True, but how is that a bad thing exactly? Pressing 1-2-3-4-5 instead of 2-2-2-2-2 aint exactly more skillfull, and you still have to time the skills.

Oh and fix the stealth buff and thieves are fine. People just need to l2 not spec glasscannon/bring stunbreaker/condition removal. The amount of full berserker glasscannon in Spvp aint even funny anymore(its near the lines of 75% in my experience). That thiefs are one of the best anti glasscannon classes(as they can deliver alot of burst) makes those Spvp believe that thieves are OP/to strong.

Point is, thieves get ownd by immobolize(they can stealth, and will still be there), conditions(only 1 "viable" condition removal, which has a 30 second cooldown) and other CC. Problem is, that most people in this game, are ignoring condition damage/armor with vitality/toughness, ignoring possible CC they get with traits/skills/weaponsets and are going full out on the crit%+precision+power(as reflected in the black lion market prices).

Yes, thieves own other classcannons hard. however, is it the thiefs fault that a majority has a playstyle(full dps, no stunbreakers/defensive stuff, no/barely condition damage) that gets countered pretty hard by a thief? No, i dont think so. This is why they aint a problem in Tpvp, for example.

TLDR: Scrubs have to stop crying about thiefs because their glasscannon gets killed by those. Thiefs own other glasscannons, like necro's own other classes with condition builds(i got 10 stack of bleed, here, let me send those to you =).

Just try to play a condition damage build, or something with semi-decent survivability and you will see thieves cant do anything about you.

Edited by Shatteredz, 24 October 2012 - 08:30 PM.


#65 Evilized

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 08:40 PM

or people could, you know, not run full zerkers expecting to never die. i'm also thinking a lot of the complaining is coming from sub 80's running around in blues wondering why they are getting 2 shot. have i hit people for 8-12k before in 1 shot? yes. were they level 80? no i can guarantee you that. there are hard counters to thieves, people just need to realize that their class cant do everything at once unlike certain other games. want to be effective against thief? go bunker build. you will lose damage output but you wont be dead in half a second. want to do massive AE damage? go full zerker set and hope to god a 2hs warrior / thief / dps mesmer doesnt find you. this game still operates on rock paper scissors, folks. it isn't rocket science.

#66 Tripolityx

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 08:44 PM

View PostEvilized, on 24 October 2012 - 08:40 PM, said:

people just need to realize that their class cant do everything at once unlike certain other games. want to be effective against thief? go bunker build. you will lose damage output but you wont be dead in half a second. want to do massive AE damage? go full zerker set and hope to god a 2hs warrior / thief / dps mesmer doesnt find you. this game still operates on rock paper scissors, folks. it isn't rocket science.
Oh thank god - THIS! I have been observing this thread a quite a while and did not have any creative input to say but finally someone did it for me so I can just quote it and second it so someone might catch eye on it too. Love ya <3

#67 Evilized

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 08:50 PM

not a lot of common sense on these boards, unfortunately (or in the MMO community in general these days) :P

glad some people still have their brains intact.

#68 Typhoris

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:59 PM

I love abusing the invuln frames when spamming death blossom on my thief :P

#69 RandolfRa

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:40 PM

View Postadra12, on 18 October 2012 - 02:06 PM, said:

Your glass cannon elementalist does 5k to up to 6 enemies which = 30k > 15k.
15k on 1 target is a lot more useful than 5k on 6 on the condition that they were balled up. Most ele skills also take long to channel and have those red circles to warn the enemy. AoE is only effective in zerg vs. zerg and pve.

Edited by RandolfRa, 25 October 2012 - 09:43 PM.


#70 CepaCepa

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 11:10 PM

Thieves, like rogues in WoW, or any other shadow-stepping-back-stabbing-poison-brewing-dagger-wielding things in any games, will always be despised by me. :) That doesn't mean I think they're overpowered for the role that they are supposed to fullfill --- I despise the role to begin with. :D

Which means, I acknowledge first and foremost that there will always be a "backstabber" in any game. And he wouldn't be a backstabber if it doesn't hurt at all. I wouldn't argue for him to get a nerf just because he's good at this role, otherwise he wouldn't be a backstabber and someone else would have to fill that shoe and the cycle starts again. But I will nevertheless still despise such a backstabber to no end from an emotional point of view, and feel forever superior to his ways no matter what he does. A *roach that is deadly poisonous and bites hard so that I have to deal with them with utmost concentration despite the disgust, is my analogy, and one that I carry with to every thief fight.

And if I'm playing a thief myself, I love that "cockroach that is poisonous and bites hard" feeling, and I invite others to despise me. :)

Letting a backstabber get to your heart means you're lowered to his level! And what fun would an mmo be without someone to despise, and what reason is there to despise someone if he does not make any impact to your emotions (through stabbing you to death in a seemingly unfair 2 seconds, for example)?

Oh wait, this isn't the role play forum? o_O

#71 fafnr

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:51 AM

View PostLordkrall, on 16 October 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

Oh look. Another one that keeps getting owned by thiefs!

This is simply an  issue of Learnis Playicus.

This is the retarded arguement by all players that play the I WIN class of Thief.  Thieves are the easiest class to play since Im not aware of a class that only has to hit a few buttons to literally A:  Be invulnerable 75% of the time in a fight and B: Do THAT much damage in less than 10 seconds.  This class is ridiculous.  Dont know of any other class that one of their main attacks they can just about spam constantly makes them immune to everything while they do it.

And also its not even the fact they have those things going for them,  its the fact that from what I see in spvp they are 30% or more of the playerbase.  They are everywhere since everyone knows its an easy I WIN class.

All Id ask for is for them to have their abilities to regain initiative back toned down or removed altogether.   Or remove the invuln on Death Blossom or remove the damage from Steal.  Any one of those 3 Id be happy with.

#72 Lordkrall

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:54 AM

View Postfafnr, on 26 October 2012 - 06:51 AM, said:

This is the retarded arguement by all players that play the I WIN class of Thief.  Thieves are the easiest class to play since Im not aware of a class that only has to hit a few buttons to literally A:  Be invulnerable 75% of the time in a fight and B: Do THAT much damage in less than 10 seconds.  This class is ridiculous.  Dont know of any other class that one of their main attacks they can just about spam constantly makes them immune to everything while they do it.

And also its not even the fact they have those things going for them,  its the fact that from what I see in spvp they are 30% or more of the playerbase.  They are everywhere since everyone knows its an easy I WIN class.

All Id ask for is for them to have their abilities to regain initiative back toned down or removed altogether.   Or remove the invuln on Death Blossom or remove the damage from Steal.  Any one of those 3 Id be happy with.

I have never played a thief, and I never will.
Simply not my play style.

I have yet to find a single bad thief that could defeat a good player.

#73 chinmi

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:57 AM

View PostDireblade, on 16 October 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

The Thief, the class of many win buttons...

So, they have stupidly high burst damage, they have the best elites in the game, which are totally and utterly overpowered, one makes them immune to all cc while they whirl around poisoning and crippling everything, the other spawns two high dps high controlling pets that last way too long and deal too much damage.

Then they have the stealth spam which wouldn't be too bad if it wasn't for the fact that they can do it too often and the bug that allows them to stay in it (to other players atleast) which allows them to spam their combo out without risk.

then you  have the fact that you cannot run from a thief or catch a thief.. nothing you do will get you close enough to attack them or get away from them.

And the fact their trait tree has the best synergy in the game, the most useful and powerful pvp masters.

Lets put it this way... anyone with half a brain can kill with a thief due to the ease  and pure power of the class, but people who can actually play the class are totally unkillable and can solo 2 other well played players with no issue what so ever maybe more..

the class is just way too powerful, or the other classes are just too weak when compared..
wow... another "i can't defeat that class ! nerf it please !!" thread....

#74 fafnr

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 07:13 AM

View PostLordkrall, on 26 October 2012 - 06:54 AM, said:

I have never played a thief, and I never will.
Simply not my play style.

I have yet to find a single bad thief that could defeat a good player.

Then you are just using this thread to epeen stroke yourself.  Well done.

#75 Lordkrall

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 07:17 AM

View Postfafnr, on 26 October 2012 - 07:13 AM, said:

Then you are just using this thread to epeen stroke yourself.  Well done.

In what way?
Where have I ever stated that I have won against every single thief?
I have never stated I am a good player.

But the point remains, a bad thief does not stand a chance against a good player.

#76 fafnr

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 07:21 AM

"Oh look. Another one that keeps getting owned by thiefs!

This is simply an  issue of Learnis Playicus."

Oddly enough your first reply to this thread mentioned none of that.

Edit:   oh an your line about bad thief blah blah is WAY off base and here's why.   You would be hard pressed to find a 'bad' thief unless you went to the starter areas because that class isnt exactly an Elementalist for player skill.  How many buttons do you have to master to play a thief?  Compared to an Ele for example?  the skill cap for a thief is far far lower than most classes.

Edited by fafnr, 26 October 2012 - 07:24 AM.


#77 Lordkrall

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 08:11 AM

And yet a bad player does not stand a chance against a decent player, even if he plays as a thief.
If the thief was so OP and easy as you claim I should be able to give the game to my mother who have never played a game in her life and she would be able to win in sPvP.
I find that extremely unlikely.

#78 Typhoris

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:45 PM

Skill is nonexistant for thief, hence why I play it with my busy lifestyle atm :P

#79 fafnr

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 02:13 PM

View PostLordkrall, on 26 October 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

And yet a bad player does not stand a chance against a decent player, even if he plays as a thief.
If the thief was so OP and easy as you claim I should be able to give the game to my mother who have never played a game in her life and she would be able to win in sPvP.
I find that extremely unlikely.

Soooooo  you are saying the thief class is hard to play?   lol.   True a good player will beat a bad player everytime in this game 1v1.  Shocking news.   BUT  thief is easy to play and yes your mother could be a good player by the time shes leveled that class to level 40. If a person hasnt gotten decent by that level?  Well they are retarded.  So if you are saying thief is a hard class to play then, I mjust ask, harder than what other classes?  Warrior maybe?  Rofl.

#80 Shatteredz

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 08:22 PM

View Postfafnr, on 26 October 2012 - 02:13 PM, said:

Soooooo  you are saying the thief class is hard to play?   lol.   True a good player will beat a bad player everytime in this game 1v1.  Shocking news.   BUT  thief is easy to play and yes your mother could be a good player by the time shes leveled that class to level 40. If a person hasnt gotten decent by that level?  Well they are retarded.  So if you are saying thief is a hard class to play then, I mjust ask, harder than what other classes?  Warrior maybe?  Rofl.

where did he say thief was hard to play? please, l2read

#81 MrForz

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 10:20 PM

View PostShatteredz, on 26 October 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

where did he say thief was hard to play? please, l2read

Well prepared thieves with vast amounts of knowledge will always have one trick over anyone he fights with. Thief has a very high skill cap but, you can have some nice results without reaching that cap. I frankly think that Thief is off the chart not due to the results you get on the brainless side but rather the results you get on the calculated side. Many people are used to it though, because numbers do matter, and teamwork is enough to erase that edge.

#82 Shatteredz

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:52 PM

View PostMrForz, on 26 October 2012 - 10:20 PM, said:

Well prepared thieves with vast amounts of knowledge will always have one trick over anyone he fights with. Thief has a very high skill cap but, you can have some nice results without reaching that cap. I frankly think that Thief is off the chart not due to the results you get on the brainless side but rather the results you get on the calculated side. Many people are used to it though, because numbers do matter, and teamwork is enough to erase that edge.

High skill-cap maybe, but learning the ropes is probably easyer with thiefs then with any other class.

#83 fafnr

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 05:29 AM

View PostShatteredz, on 26 October 2012 - 08:22 PM, said:

where did he say thief was hard to play? please, l2read

"If the thief was so OP and easy as you claim I should be able to give the game to my mother who have never played a game in her life and she would be able to win in sPvP.
I find that extremely unlikely."

l2read AND comprehend knob.  Hes literally arguing that thieves are in fact NOT easy, that his mother couldnt pick one up and play one.  I say she could,  just takes leveling to about 40+ before you really get an idea of what to do an when.  The skills you pick up after that are just gravy.

See I explained it so even YOU could understand Shatterdz.   YW

#84 Shatteredz

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:33 AM

View Postfafnr, on 27 October 2012 - 05:29 AM, said:

"If the thief was so OP and easy as you claim I should be able to give the game to my mother who have never played a game in her life and she would be able to win in sPvP.
I find that extremely unlikely."

l2read AND comprehend knob.  Hes literally arguing that thieves are in fact NOT easy, that his mother couldnt pick one up and play one.  I say she could,  just takes leveling to about 40+ before you really get an idea of what to do an when.  The skills you pick up after that are just gravy.

See I explained it so even YOU could understand Shatterdz.   YW

So its not that easy that his mother can pick up the game and own every1 in spvp  Good job, you made yourself look like a fool even more. If thieves were really that easy his mother could start with spvp on level 2 and own every1 by spamming #2. Saying that you need to lvl to ~40 first means there is actual skill related stuff to the class, and that it is not so easy/op as you are all making it out to be.

And, again, he did not say a thief was hard to play. He simply says it aint as easy as you are making it out to be. How hard can that be to understand. No1 besides that voice in your head is saying that thief is the hardest class to play. Hell thief is probably one of the easy classes to pick up. However, thief has a pretty high skill-cap with stuff like rescource management(initiative) that other classes dont even have to care about.

Edited by Shatteredz, 27 October 2012 - 11:11 AM.


#85 Trishian

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 09:48 AM

ther is only 1 issue with thiefs... a broken build: Steal+Backstab... he just tp and boom 20k dgm in 1s?  Steal crit for 10.100 and Backstab Crit for 10.200 its just insta kill for my 20k hp mesmer ;/ but on other side.. i love see how they use this combo on decoy clon :)

Edited by Trishian, 30 October 2012 - 09:49 AM.


#86 Shinimas

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 09:52 AM

View PostShatteredz, on 27 October 2012 - 09:33 AM, said:

So its not that easy that his mother can pick up the game and own every1 in spvp  Good job, you made yourself look like a fool even more. If thieves were really that easy his mother could start with spvp on level 2 and own every1 by spamming #2. Saying that you need to lvl to ~40 first means there is actual skill related stuff to the class, and that it is not so easy/op as you are all making it out to be.

And, again, he did not say a thief was hard to play. He simply says it aint as easy as you are making it out to be. How hard can that be to understand. No1 besides that voice in your head is saying that thief is the hardest class to play. Hell thief is probably one of the easy classes to pick up. However, thief has a pretty high skill-cap with stuff like rescource management(initiative) that other classes dont even have to care about.

"Our class can't be mastered instantly by a housewife who never played games or used a computer before, therefore, it's balanced!".

Wow, Thieves... just wow, that's a new low.

#87 Shatteredz

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 11:50 AM

View PostShinimas, on 30 October 2012 - 09:52 AM, said:

"Our class can't be mastered instantly by a housewife who never played games or used a computer before, therefore, it's balanced!".

Wow, Thieves... just wow, that's a new low.

Do you make stuff up for a living? Because you seem to be pretty good at it.
I never said anything about thieves being balanced or not. I said that the thief class isnt as easy as half of the people are making it out to be, and that the class has a pretty high skill-cap with initiative-management and such.
Yes, thief is probably the easiest class to play, but one has to be. If you want to nerf a class because it is easy to play and destroys others bads/scrubs in spvp? Go ahead, I will just hope that anet wont balance around people that go full glasscannon without a stun-breaker, and people that need ~2 seconds to realise that they need to dodge out of a warriors 100b(remember all the complaints about 100b only a few weeks ago).

Just saying, more or less every person here that wants to nerf thiefs is constantly making stuff up, be it numbers or stuff like i jus quoted. If you have to resort to that kind of argumentation in order to get what you want(thiefs nerfed) then im just gonna tell you to sit down and come with some real arguments.

#88 oxmox

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 11:53 AM

I wonder honestly why people talk about "nerfing a class" when actually the thief class itself offers a lot more than just the high damage build. There is a reason why you dont see that much thiefs with high toughness, because if you try one you are caught in the toughness vs burst problem in this game. The game has an overall problem, if you play classes with sky high damage like thief/mesmer/warrior or the classes with high survival, especially Guardian but also an engineer tank, if you stay with what is played most currently I could understand that some of the people would say the pvp of the game is alright.

Edited by oxmox, 30 October 2012 - 11:55 AM.


#89 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 03:00 PM

View PostShatteredz, on 24 October 2012 - 01:31 PM, said:

Tell me how this works without traiting for stealth and using every utility slot you have for stealth skills?
Yes some thieves are build around stealth, but 95% of the builds aint in stealth more then half of the time.

Offhand dagger. C&D does a hellova lot damage, and stealthes you without any cooldown besides iniative cost (which isn't so hard because as mention it does A LOT damage).

#90 Shatteredz

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 05:52 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 30 October 2012 - 03:00 PM, said:


Offhand dagger. C&D does a hellova lot damage, and stealthes you without any cooldown besides iniative cost (which isn't so hard because as mention it does A LOT damage).

So your enemy is just gonna let you stealth every time with CnD without either running away from you or just hitting the air and killing you?
Sure, there are builds that spend alot of time in stealth, but those numbers are simply ridiculous. Not every class(read almost none) is gonna let you stay in melee range all the time.
And it has a 3/4 second cast as well, which makes it pretty easy to dodge, if steal isnt used.




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