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#31 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 05:08 AM

Depends solely on how much attention you give, really. Most of the lore we have comes from either GW1, while the rest comes from the developers' mouth (via out of game official documents such as manuals or through interviews).

1. If you go through every quest you would be able to find everything on 3 characters (one native to each campaign).

2. Group content yes, but you can use henchmen and heroes so you don't need other people (in fact, I personally say not to go with other people unless it's a meeting of lore lovers all intent on looking around).

3. There are only 3 translatable languages. There are interactable objects and there are books, but these are not found on shelves and such. The former (interactable objects) have yellow names while the later are given by a handful of NPCs (wiki "Storybook" for which) and are filled out as you do missions or dungeons.

4. If you're interested in lore and doing it for the lore, then yes. I'd suggest to getting fast killing builds though, but to remain attentive to the surrounding and to dialogue. I found working on the Cartographer title best for looking around the area for viewable lore.

This all said, there will be more lore found on the wiki that isn't in the game (what I said in the beginning for what isn't in the game will almost always be found on the two wikis). Which way you go after it - finding the first hand or second hand information - is up to your personal preference.

(I'll let Leon decide if this should be in the Q&A stickied thread, too tired to bother moving).

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#32 Bael

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 06:36 AM

I found that the games were good at getting the plot out there to the players, mostly because of the mission system and cutscenes, but if you wanted any deeper knowledge of the lore behind what was going on (like the backstory of Vizier Khilbron) you really had to go out of your way to find it, or read the Wiki.

Personally I think if you can't stand Guild Wars 1 combat, don't bother. Learning about the lore firsthand from the game isn't worth putting yourself through something you don't enjoy, and you will probably still end up reading the Wiki a lot anyway.

#33 Prince Zorkian

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 08:54 AM

IF you Read every Quest text (including the ones in the middle of the quest) and watch every cinematic, you will get learn say around 90% of all the lore, whether or not your able to connect it all may be a different story.  Some of the details are revealed in each of the campaigns, and sometimes they go back to previous campaigns.  For example, how influential is Abaddon?  We do not even learn about Abaddon until the 3rd campaign, Nightfall, but some smaller quest in NF indicate that abaddon influenced the Charr, the Lich, Shiro's fortune teller, etc.  But they are very easy to miss.  On the other hand, there are bits like "What do to the giants bones in the Crystal Desert belong to"  I do not recall anything in game mentioning them, they would come from secondary sources, such as game manuscipts,  interviews, etc.  Reading the wiki is the easiest way to learn most of the lore, since the lore buffs have spent years gathering it all together.

#34 Ben

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 09:21 AM

Much of the lore is given through sidequests as well, particularly in Nightfall and Eye of the North. In those two, it pays to take your time and look around.

#35 BuddhaKeks

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 09:51 AM

You should do both, playing the game for basic lore (for example what are the NPC guilds, the locations and so on) and reading the wiki (for more in-depth lore, like ancient gods and historic events that are only rarely mentioned in the game).

And for the fourth question: GW1 is a fun game not only for the lore's sake, but don't expect rapid action and movement orientated battles, it's more about strategy and planning. Maybe you should try to get an 10 days test account or ask a friend if he/she has the game, so you could test it right there. If you ask me it's worth it solely for the lore aspect (if you are really interested), but you have to decide this by yourself.

#36 Darcy

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 01:22 PM

The Guild Wars storyline is fairly easy to follow. You have the Prophecies story, then the Factions story and then the Nightfall story which ties all three together in the end.  The Prophecies campaign and the Eye of the North expansion are the main story components for Guild Wars 2.

The lore is much more difficult to find as it comes piecemeal.  You have to read every bit of text in the game, listen to random NPC statements, talk to NPCs and explore everywhere to find tablets and other inscriptions.  And even then, you will be left with gaps in your knowledge.  So, the wiki would be needed to fill in the gaps.

#37 Siadina

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 02:13 PM

The bonus mission pack also has some good lore that you can fight through. It covers different aspects of key npc background and effect on their respective culture/peoples history.

#38 Gmr Leon

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 08:47 PM

Darcy said:

...explore everywhere to find tablets and other inscriptions.

There isn't too much of this, though. As I recall, the only areas that hold much of this are Ascalon (and only in one quest), Divinity Coast, the Crystal Desert (bleached bones), and Shing Jea Monastery (little tips that most ignore, and do not really contribute to lore). Aside from those areas, I don't recall many in mainland Cantha or Elona nor the areas in Eye of the North, excluding the Hall of Monuments.

Also, it should be noted that not every quest is highly relevant to the lore, as there are several which are merely pop culture references (Drakes on a Plain is the first to come to mind). Similarly, the ones that are relevant aren't nearly as difficult to find or as easy to miss as some here have suggested. If you mainly focus on getting through the campaign's story, yes, you will miss them, despite them being in an outpost the campaign takes you through. Not to mention, there are a few in outposts that you are not taken to (Lair of the Forgotten and Tarnished Haven being two that immediately come to mind).

#39 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 09:20 PM

Gmr Leon said:

There isn't too much of this, though. As I recall, the only areas that hold much of this are Ascalon (and only in one quest), Divinity Coast, the Crystal Desert (bleached bones), and Shing Jea Monastery (little tips that most ignore, and do not really contribute to lore). Aside from those areas, I don't recall many in mainland Cantha or Elona nor the areas in Eye of the North, excluding the Hall of Monuments.
Nahpui Quarter outpost, Tahnnakai Temple explorable/mission, and anywhere there's the statues of the gods. There's a handful throughout EN, mostly being warnings or memorials though.

The Desolation also has some bleached bones.

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#40 Gmr Leon

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Posted 21 September 2010 - 09:25 PM

Ah, right, knew I probably missed a few. I should probably also specify, the tablets that I mentioned in Ascalon are there regardless of having the quest, but having it guides you to them, whereas otherwise they may be overlooked.

#41 Othl

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 04:56 AM

people.. Elona is probably very closed off as well now that pawala joko rules there with the mordant crescent

#42 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 06:18 AM

Actually, Joko could be very much wanting to open trade routes with others - if for nothing else than slaves of other races to add to his undead and living ranks.

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#43 Safer Saviour

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Posted 23 September 2010 - 12:55 PM

Ben said:

True, political instability can have that effect. I'm certainly not expecting Elona to have advanced by leaps and bounds.

Elona's been pretty stable for quite a while now. Same ruler, same laws etc. I'd personally love to see it modernised somewhat. I imagine Joko has his minions well-organised enough to sort something out ^.^

#44 draxynnic

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 07:38 AM

Konig Des Todes said:

Actually, Joko could be very much wanting to open trade routes with others - if for nothing else than slaves of other races to add to his undead and living ranks.
Well, one has to wonder what he does with all that tribute he demands. The undead don't need food, so ultimately it has to be vanity - and if he's after vanity items, than it certainly makes sense that he'd be looking to trade to get those Elona can't or doesn't produce directly.

#45 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 08:18 AM

Undead actually may need food. They at the very least hunger. And hunger, rather than appetite, implies that food is necessary. Though the devs may have mistaken hunger and appetite as being interchangeable when they really are different things and undead merely have appetites (desire for eating, not actually needing food).

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#46 draxynnic

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Posted 24 September 2010 - 09:04 AM

That's a valid point. Even if it is technically an appetite rather than a hunger (there's no guarantee Bonesmith Rokel knows the distinction) it shows that Joko's undead do have a desire for food that can be satisfied from the tribute.

That said, however, this doesn't really jive with the evidence that suggests that Palawa's control is based over having control of the food sources - the implication in the Movement is that the tribute is partially in exchange for food. So we get back to my original point - Palawa has everything he needs without Elona, so what he's receiving from Elona is mainly for vanity or luxury purposes, and if so he may be trading some of it with other lands for things he can't get from Elona.

#47 Lyssa

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 07:32 PM

So we know that the Humans of Tyria are theistic (kinda hard not to be...) but how do we know that they are religious?

I appreciate that there are many temples/statues and stuff around in tribute to the gods (and serve as a pretty practical means for communication) but how do we know that they all abide by a religion which tells them how to live their lives and stuff.?

#48 TedTheShred

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 08:23 PM

The inscriptions on the statues are scriptures. These are each parables that serve to guide the humans of Tyria, and determine some moral standards.

Quote

And when the world rang with the clanging of swords and did fire fall from the skies, Dwayna, goddess of life and air, heard the wailings and pleas of the weak.
And when the rumblings of war did not cease, came Her charge, Doric, who did prostrate himself at Her feet.
And cast She now a glance upon the war-torn lands and wasted flesh of the fallen, and with tears upon Her cheek did lay Her gentle hands upon the prostrate man. Then saith She unto to him and all Her charges, "Lay down thy weapons, and as I have done unto ye, so ye must do for your brethren. Offer protection to the weak. Give solace and shelter to those who need it. Be ye a salve to the wounded.
"For I am your goddess, and I will give blessings to all who follow these teachings
."
The Scriptures of Dwayna
115 BE (Before Exodus)

Quote

For weeks did the battle rage on, and those who had taken up the mantle of war grew weary and their courage began to falter.
Then did Balthazar, god of war and fire, appear to the soldiers, carrying with him a grand sword that did glow with such brilliance it blinded any who looked upon it. When he spoke, His voice was like thunder, and it shook the ground with force.
Then saith He, "Lift up thy weapons. For you are my soldiers, and must you be steadfast, strong, and brave of heart. They who neither hesitate nor stumble shall be rewarded. Then shall you have glory. Then shall your deeds be remembered for eternity."
And then did release from His sword a hundred thousand flames, which encircled the soldiers. For this was the fire of courage, and forthwith did they follow the god into battle without fear or hesitation. Thence was the enemy struck down.
Scriptures of Balthazar: 48 BE

Quote

Came then Desmina, scorned and exiled by her people. And in her misery and wretchedness, did Desmina curse the gods for abandoning all who, like her, admired power and ambition.
And asketh she, "Where is the god to whom I may give my undying devotion? Where is the god to whom I may beg revenge against those who scorn me?"
And rumbled then the earth from far below, and with a terrible groan, split open. The ground grew white with frost and ice, and from forth the frozen earth spilled the rotted, skeletal minions of Grenth.
Appeared then the god, and with bony hands outstretched, welcomed the girl into His fold. Saith he, "I am your god. Follow where I lead, come whence I call, and the rotted corpses of the dead will be yours to control." And swearing allegiance in life and beyond, did Desmina thence become the god's first follower.
Scriptures of Grenth: 48 BE

Quote

And it was, that a stranger came to the village of Wren seeking shelter and employment. Though young in years, her body was stooped and twisted, her flesh eaten by disease. "Ye have the mark of plague upon ye," said the citizen named Gallrick. "Leave this place lest you sicken our people."
"I've lost my family and my home," cried the desperate woman. "Have you no heart?"
Yet each person, in turn, did look away.
Then from the crowd came a young woman, Sara. She looked upon the woman with pity. "If you need help," said Sara, "I will give it." And Sara did approach the gnarled, bent woman and did offer her a helping hand.
Then the sickened woman pulled from her body the robes of plague, revealing Herself to be the goddess Lyssa.
The people of Wren fell to their knees, begging Lyssa's mercy. But lifting Sara gently, saith She, "True beauty is measured not by appearance but by actions and deeds. Many have eyes, but few have seen. Of all here, you saw the beauty behind the illusion. And you alone shall be blessed with My gifts."
Scriptures of Lyssa: 45 BE

Quote

And it was that a tribe of godless humans wandered the land. Where camped did they lay waste, senselessly destroying everything nearby.
And so the tribe set out to find another camp, when suddenly sprouted a wall of thorny branches, which blocked their exit.
Then saith Ewan, leader of the tribe, "Know ye our ways. Whosoever does magic in this tribe shall be put to death."
Yet none comes forward. Then, from the earth grows forth a large tree, and unfurling its branches, reveals the upper torso of a woman. Saith She, "I am Melandru, the Mother of earth and nature. Henceforth I bind ye to these lands. When they suffer, so shall ye suffer."
And as She saith, so was it done. From their limbs sprouted branches, and the blood in their veins was the sap of trees. Then was Ewan and his tribe converted, and became they stewards of nature.
Scriptures of Melandru: 48 BE

Quote

And so it came to pass that Spearmarshal Kormir, hero of all Elona, was pulled into the inky blackness surrounding the God of Secrets. And though her sight had been robbed, her body wracked, and her spirit flayed, she remained resolute.
And so was she joined within the Realm of Torment by fearless allies, <character name> and other great heroes, who stood at her side as she sought to thwart Nightfall. Together did they battle through Fear, and Anguish, and Madness, until at last they stood before the face of the imprisoned god; he who had challenged the Five and lost; he who threatened to break the chains placed upon him by the other gods; he who now sought to bring Nightfall to the world: the dark god, Abaddon.
And so did Kormir and her allies engage the dark god in titanic battle. And through her power, and their combined skill and bravery, and the blessings of the Five True Gods, did Abaddon at last face his ultimate defeat.
Yet the power of a god cannot be destroyed, and Kormir, making a choice that only a mortal could make, did take upon herself the mantle of the Goddess of Truth, with all its power and responsibility, all its dominion and duties.
And so by mortal hands did a new immortal enter creation.
- Scriptures of Kormir, 1075 AE

Quote

And so it came to pass that Jadoth, being persecuted by the horrific Forgotten armies, and hounded from his home, did seek refuge among the cooling mists of the Crystal Sea. Untold weeks passed as Jadoth huddled in his sanctuary, with nothing to see save the endless ripples of the boundless ocean.
On the 51st day of his exodus, a frightful sight manifested before Jadoth's eyes: the unmistakable shape of Forgotten warships upon the horizon's shimmering edge.
And prayed Jadoth, "Abaddon! Lord of the Everlasting Depths, Keeper of Secrets, open mine eyes and bestow upon me the knowledge of the Abyss that I might smite mine enemies and send them to the watery depths!"
An unsettling silence swept across the waves. The twilight sky shattered and stars streaked down upon the Forgotten armada. The seas boiled and ruptured, and gave birth to a maelstrom from which not even light could escape, and transforming the sky above into a midnight void.
And thus was magic gifted to Jadoth, chosen of Abaddon, the first of the Margonites.
-- Scriptures of Abaddon, 1BE

Edited by TedTheShred, 05 October 2010 - 08:36 PM.


#49 Lyssa

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 10:01 PM

Okay so yeah, there are the scriptures. But do we have any evidence that the people of today actually act by them?

Some of them even seem to contradict themselves, as if you, as a citizen of Tyria, should pick a god and only listen to them. If people are actually doing that (and there is no real unified set of practices people follow) then can we call it a religion? Or is it a religion for each god?


It doesnt seem people are doing the stuff written. Look at Dwayna, for instance. It seems pretty clear that the monks are the guys who're following her teachings. And yet there are monks all over the place (both NPCs and players) who, rather than laying down their weapons, use them to kill.

Is there no better evidence for the existence of an actual religion outside of the scriptures? It just seems a bit fishy is all.
Thanks for the example though!

Edit:
Oh, I guess I do appreciate that in real life religions have teachings which contradict themselves. The bible, for instance, does this all the time and yet Christianity is still known as a religion.

Edited by Lyssa, 05 October 2010 - 10:07 PM.


#50 Gmr Leon

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 10:30 PM

They may each be considered sects of a large cult. E.g. The Luxon, Kurzick, Dragon Empire sect, or, as a whole, the Canthan sect, similarly the Elonian and Tyrian sect, each divisions of the much larger Cult of the Six Gods. Should there be a specific order that adheres to a certain doctrine or dogma, then it may be classified as a religion.

Although, looking at the definition of religion...

1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.

2. a specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects: the Christian religion; the Buddhist religion.

3. the body of persons adhering to a particular set of beliefs and practices: a world council of religions.

6. something one believes in and follows devotedly; a point or matter of ethics or conscience: to make a religion of fighting prejudice.

#51 Lyssa

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 10:38 PM

So... what you're saying is that religion doesnt exist in Tyria? Just large cults?

About definition 1. ''beliefs concerning the cause..  ..of the universe''.

See now, dont the Humans on a whole still believe that Tyria was created by the gods? (while we, and a few NPCs, have evidence which points otherwise)

Does that qualify it? Do they have any beliefs about the universe?

#52 TedTheShred

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 10:53 PM

I think what you're struggling with is the concept of the "Pantheon" or "Polytheism."

The best analogy here is going to be ancient greece. We often view it as a single, cohesive nation, but it was really a somewhat loose collective with a fair amount of internal conflict. All regions agreed that there were, indeed gods on the top of Mount Olympus, that there were a lot of them, and that they each acted independantly.

As such, certain cultures or activities within Greece demended the respect of or celebration of a specific god. Sailors, for instance would pray to Posidon while out on the sea. This didn't mean they respected Zeus any less, and they would probably pray to him in the event of a lightning storm out at sea.

Now, monks could be best represented in the conflict between Athens and Sparta. Athens was named for the goddess Athena, who represented wisdom, justice, civilization, and strength. Sparta, on the other hand was a proprioter of Aries, the god of war. Each city-state reflected the ideals of these gods, Athens a beacon of philosophy and art and knowledge and civilization, Sparta the militaristic structured state of fierce warriors. These cities even went to war. These cities were different, but distinctly Greek, and clearly worshipped the same pantheon.

Monks often find empowerment in either Dwayna or Balthazar. Praying either exclusively to one like athens or sparta, or toeing the line as the situation demanded like the sailors.

As far as practice is concerned, I would suggest that each time a human uses a skill it is a tribute to a god. That casting a meteor shower is like sacrificing a goat. This is most evident with the dervish, as half of their skills are either earth or wind prayers.

In a more literal example, the white mantle sacrifice the chosen to their gods.

#53 Gmr Leon

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 10:54 PM

I think based on those definitions it would still classify as a religion, despite variance in practices and, possibly, beliefs. There would merely be large denominational differences between the lands, such as a Tyrian, Canthan, and Elonian denomination which may when examined closely, break into, say, an Ascalonian, Krytan, and Orrian denomination, in the case of Tyria.

In my explanation, they are all part of the same cult, but each region has its own sect (with possible subsects, as I noted, in Cantha there may be three sects that dominate the continent, being made up of, primarily, the Dragon Empire, Luxons, and Kurzicks), which holds varied practices and beliefs about the pantheon.

Essentially, it's the same either way you describe it in my thoughts, as there is only a difference in terms used. If it's a religion, they share the same religion, but with different regional denominations (which may have sub-denominations based on the demographics). If it's a cult, they share the same cult, but with different regional sects.

For example: Christianity is one of the larger religions on Earth, but, depending on where you travel, the denominations will change. E.g. In North America, you may be more prone to encounter Protestant churches, whereas in Central and South America, you may be more likely to find Catholic churches. In Europe, you're more likely to find Protestant churches in the U.K. and Germany, with more Catholic churches (I'd think, anyway) in Italy and Spain, and yet more Eastern Orthodox churches in northeastern Europe, around Ukraine, Belarus, Poland, and Russia.

You might find similar regional differences in the denominations/sects of the religion/cult of the Six Gods. Such as favouring Lyssa in Vabbi, or the Kurzick Houses each favouring a particular god/goddess.

#54 Lyssa

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 11:00 PM

Right. I can understand how the same person can follow a different god depending on the situation, but seemingly here you cant really follow Balthazar without pissing Dwayna off or vice versa. So how does that work? The people of Tyria just expect forgiveness from Dwayna the second they heal their friend after killing someone else?

The white mantle sacraficing on the bloodstones is a nice example! But thats not the same thing that everyone else believes in, do we have any examples of the other one? (it doesnt have a name, right?)

Skills is a good thought, especially considering that many are called 'prayer to XX' or whatever.

Edit:
Oh sorry GMR, missed your post. That all makes complete sense to me. Kind of like how Canthans beleive in weh-no-su while Tyrians beleive in ascension (while its likely its the same thing)

Edited by Lyssa, 06 October 2010 - 12:55 AM.


#55 TedTheShred

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Posted 05 October 2010 - 11:37 PM

Interesting point.

I think what's telling about that, is that there is no open hostility between the clearly diametrically opposed Dwayna and Balthazar. It's clear that the gods themselves have internal conflicts such as with Menzies, Dhuum, and Abbadon, but why is there no visible tension between these two? Or for that matter, why not with Grenth, whose parable had no clear moral lesson beyond "WORSHIP ME FOR POWER!!!"

Is it possible that these gods are playing some kind of game? Something along the lines of Mr Magorium's wagers? That neither god has real interest in the affairs of man, nor his fickleness in life, only their alleigance in the end. Any acolyte of Dwayna, should they stray to the path of Balthazar, is not lost so long as they return to their 'true' god in the end.

As far as the human perspective is concerned, they might simply ignore the fact that they worship two mutually exclusive value systems. It's a rather well documented psychological effect known as selection bias or cognative dissonance.

#56 BobTheTank

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 12:08 AM

I don't think this deserves it's own thread, but if the Human gods are supposedly "silent", why do player characters get rewarded with flaming hounds of death when they pray to Balthazar?

#57 Konig Des Todes

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 12:53 AM

A popular topic which has been discussed elsewhere. If I can find the thread, I'll move the posts on this topic into that thread.

One thought (which I share) is that the prayer skills are not literal prayers, but magic done in the form of prayers. This counts for both GW2 and GW1 - the gods' activity in GW1 would thus be statue blessings and access to the UW/FoW, perhaps the avatars of Grenth and Dwayna appearing during Wintersday.

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#58 draxynnic

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 02:14 AM

Pretty much.

I think that's certainly true in GW1, since there are plenty of enemies and the occasional ally using Monk-style magics just as effectively as a priest of Dwayna without worshipping the gods at all.

In GW2... it's more of an open question, possibly one that will be answered in-game. Somewhere I raised the possibility that the prayers were actually drawing from gifts of divinity within humanity (as described by Lyssa's Muse in the Gate of Madness mission) rather than involving direct intervention of the gods. That said, though, humans would still see the appearance of flaming hounds as a divine intervention even if it really isn't.

Possibly more likely, though, is that humanity in general isn't used to having racial skills. It could be that posession of human racial skills is characteristic only of true champions - there are some worthy figures (including human PCs) that have earned the right to call upon the gods and expect an answer (if a small one) but for most the gods remain silent.

Alternatively, rather than being limited to a few, the appearance of human racial skills may be a recent thing, possibly even first arising during the game. The silence of the gods is the state of affairs at the start of the game, but it's possible that the storyline will involve the gods gradually reengaging with the world, with racial skills being one product of that process.

#59 ion

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 02:59 PM

I was just wondering, is there any lore surrounding Mad King Thorn? Wiki isn't really helping. Does he have some kind of background or is he just there as a random character. Also, he is said to be a long standing foe of Palawa Jokko, does this mean we might see him in again in GW 2?
Just asking for your thoughts.

[quote name='http://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Mad_King']Mad King Thorn is also known as:
Autumn Lunatic
Indelible Fright
Grim Japer
Antic Harrower
While you're next to Mad King Thorn, you are placed under the effect of Oversized Tonic Warning.
According to his emissary in Kamadan, Mad King Thorn had eight wives during his lifetime.
He is known to be a long-standing foe of Palawa Joko.[/QUOTE]

#60 Konig Des Todes

Konig Des Todes

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Posted 29 October 2010 - 03:24 PM

A search in the archives, you would have found this thread. It's a bit out of date, as it lacks the lore from '09 and '10 quests, but it'll be more helpful than wiki atm.

Merged with the sticky.

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