90 replies to this topic

[Phoebe Ascension]

Kitsune, on 22 October 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

Use the most broken, overpowered, single best condition removal skill in the game: Ether Renewal.

Nothing else in the game to my knowledge removes as many conditions on such a short cooldown, and honestly im very surprised it has gone unnoticed by the community at large (hope the devs dont catch wind of how amazing that heal is!).

It's slow, can be interrupted, you cannot dodge while using it (or then you loose the skill use), heal is average. And ele is squishy. I think this downsides make up for the strong condition removal. Even my guardian hates conditions. Every prof must invest in condi removal. And the squishiest class of the game deserves imo one of the best condition removal skills. A wire pull in Orr easely overrides our ether renewal. So op? not really in my opinion.

[KodiakX]

I like it but I also share the same concerns with bleed stacking as others.  A single necro (who's only real viable spec is conditions) would throw this whole thing off.  The minute you're going back on the power basis is the minute you'll end up wishing you were crit/power.

I also kept looking for the use for Frost Bow detailed out and I couldn't see it other than 4 (which seems a waste, why not use Glyph of Storms instead?).

Seems like if you were willing to give up some traits in Earth you could easily adapt it to a powerful signet build with signet cd redux + written in stone to take advantage of all those conditions you can generate from signets as well.  Not sure how this would play in with the style though.

[CidrozAullik]

i tried the trait that reduces -20% CD on earth skills on SPVP,.. it doesnt work on eruption o.O it still says 6 sec CD

[tornado64]

CidrozAullik, on 24 October 2012 - 05:59 AM, said:

i tried the trait that reduces -20% CD on earth skills on SPVP,.. it doesnt work on eruption o.O it still says 6 sec CD

Yes, but if you look the timer, it actually starts with 4,5 seconds.

Edited by tornado64, 26 October 2012 - 10:33 AM.

[Maxzero]

Just as an aside the new Superior Mad King Runes that come with the Halloween event have some pretty useful set bonus for this build: the 2 piece is +10% condition duration.

The downsides are:

1) It is a power based rune set
2) Very expensive (2-3g a piece)
3) Uses Candy as a material to make (200 per piece) so after Halloween is over it might get even more expensive.

Might be an idea to farm up some candy (400 at least) just in case you want the 2 piece in the future.

[Hydro]

It's only +10%. Pretty sure +15% bleed is better than +10 condition duration for this build.

[Aetou]

Hydro, on 26 October 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

It's only +10%. Pretty sure +15% bleed is better than +10 condition duration for this build.

I disagree.  If you were just focused on stacking bleeds then perhaps but if you aren't also using Chilled, Immobilized, Burning, Blind, etc., then you are really playing badly and not making the most of your class.  This isn't a game where you should just be standing back and unloading your 'optimum dps rotation.'

[Kitsune]

Aetou, on 27 October 2012 - 08:57 AM, said:

I disagree.  If you were just focused on stacking bleeds then perhaps but if you aren't also using Chilled, Immobilized, Burning, Blind, etc., then you are really playing badly and not making the most of your class.  This isn't a game where you should just be standing back and unloading your 'optimum dps rotation.'

Exactly, I'm looking to get the recipe soon so I can make myself (and guildies and future alts) a pair later on.


Through some very extensive testing, with the exception of a VERY choice few abilities (only found one so far!) Condition Duration caps at 100%. The only exception I've found is that the necromancer's scepter autoattack chain is bugged and receiving a much higher % increase than it should. Base is 4s on first 2 of the 3 hits, and It can be increased well over 12s, which should be impossible. (note, every other bleed I've tried on necro always caps at 100% or "double" the base duration).

As such, its trivially easy to reach 100% if you use the "condition specific" stacking, but its much harder to reach a generalized 100%.

30% from trait line + 40% from food is a good 70% general right there if you are min-maxing it. Without the new runes, it takes 4 Nightmare (or Lich) + 2 Lyssa to reach 20% Condition Duration from runes. With the new runes only taking 2 slots for the extra 10%, that leaves you with 2 spare rune slots for anything you like, though you would be losing a rather significant amount of condition damage.

Tough call, although in my case, it could let me NOT invest 30 in fire (which i currently dont) in order to to reach 80% general, then get a 20% specific condition duration increase to hit 100% in one and 80% in the rest, rather than 90% all.

In my case this would be Bleed at 100% (using +20% trait, to bring from 80 to 100), Chill at 100% with a 20% chill rune combo, and leave 80% for the rest.

That might be worth the loss of raw condition damage from the nightmare runes, still trying to decide personally.


In regards to the "why use Ice Bow?" I should have been more specific:

Chill on 3 is FANTASTIC for keeping perma chill along side Frozen Ground.

Ice Storm on 4 not only does fantastic raw structure damage with the build's power (FAR FAR more than the pathetically underpowered GoS, seriously never a reason to use this outside of Earth unless you really just want another aoe to drop) BUT it also stacks confusion better than anything in the entire game for its brief duration against larger targets or groups. With our generalized 80 or 90% condition duration, we have a fantastically good Confusion damage potential here (think I've had a 3k confusion hit, to give an idea, and when used in WvW in massive zergs, I see 1k+ popping up all over the screen.)

Finally, Ice Block on 5 is fantastic if used in a smart, coordinated group, allowing your allies to have some free time on a boss for a revive or just to lower the boss's general damage enough to give people time for self heals etc. Just need to know how to work the Defiance stacks, thief and mesmer are great at this btw. My group has managed a clutch back to back Ice Block to lock a foe down for a LONG time.


Finally, none of our signets, save for Earth, really benefit this build that much to be honest. Burning from Fire maybe, but even then, generally you have so many people applying burning that its not the go-to condition i try to maintain anyway. People will "delay" your burning stacks because they all happen in order of application, so unless i get the first burn on a foe, it will quickly get buried in the stack by guardians et al. Water is useless since the chill on it is amazingly poor compared to the staff / ice bow options, and I dont need condition removal passively since I use Ether as my heal.

Signets just dont provide enough oomph to get into my build, save for Fire signet. Arcane Blast is the trade out skill, so i have to judge weather the might stacking / aoe healing / aoe swiftness / aoe frost aura is worth giving up for an easy to apply long duration burn on a single foe. some fights this may be the case, but never enough to warrant lowering its cooldown OR keeping it perma passive, since i dont rely on crit chance at all.

KodiakX, on 23 October 2012 - 10:15 PM, said:

I like it but I also share the same concerns with bleed stacking as others.  A single necro (who's only real viable spec is conditions) would throw this whole thing off.  The minute you're going back on the power basis is the minute you'll end up wishing you were crit/power.

When and if this happens, I can:

Focus on maintaining other conditions, and focusing extra hard on controlling foes rather than offensive conditions, using Frost Bow's stun + confusion and raw damage aoe, ensuring that 100% chill is maintained, maybe stack vulnerability with frost bow's 2 + ice spike from water staff... so many options.

or

Switch to either a power/crit/critdam or super might buffing and tanky alternative 80 character I have

Edited by Kitsune, 27 October 2012 - 09:41 AM.

[Aetou]

Kitsune, on 27 October 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

Signets just dont provide enough oomph to get into my build, save for Fire signet. Arcane Blast is the trade out skill, so i have to judge weather the might stacking / aoe healing / aoe swiftness / aoe frost aura is worth giving up for an easy to apply long duration burn on a single foe. some fights this may be the case, but never enough to warrant lowering its cooldown OR keeping it perma passive, since i dont rely on crit chance at all.

Don't overlook Signet of Air.  It's on a very low CD (16s, traited) and does mediocre AOE damage plus AOE blind.  So far, not so impressive, right? The best part is that it is an Instant ability, which means you can use it in the middle of casting something else, while stunned/KDed, etc.  The passive is also pretty nice if you don't have 10 in Air.

[Kitsune]

Aetou, on 27 October 2012 - 12:51 PM, said:

Don't overlook Signet of Air.  It's on a very low CD (16s, traited) and does mediocre AOE damage plus AOE blind.  So far, not so impressive, right? The best part is that it is an Instant ability, which means you can use it in the middle of casting something else, while stunned/KDed, etc.  The passive is also pretty nice if you don't have 10 in Air.

But it doesn't work where I really need to block a big hit, namely Champion mobs, and if I really need Blind I take GoS: Earth for one of the better maintained area blinds in the game short of a Thief's pistol.

Still not more utility than the instant blast finisher from Arcane wave as well in my opinion.

[Zoreye]

This is a solid build that I think could use a bit more attention right now with everyone scrambling for a new build since the EA nerf. I've been using this for a while, and it's working out pretty well. I'm not yet fully geared (exotic armor, exotic staff, but only masterwork accessorys, 2 runes of Lyssa and minor sigil in Staff) and keep forgetting to buy the food though. Still, I can keep up a heft stack of AoE bleeds and a ton of chill, cripple and weakness.

Personally, I think chill is the most powerful condition, and being able to keep it up 100% against single targets (and near 100% still on multitargets) is pretty fantastic. On top of chill, you can stack weakness reducing damage even further, all while keeping up a steady stream of bleeds on multiple targets. Also of note is the Ice Bow now grants +20% Condition Duration for even more chill stacking goodness.

The EA nerf hurts, but I think builds like this are still very viable and assets to a group.

[Aetou]

Very much so, Zoreye.  3 weeks later I'm still running my 0/0/30/20/20 build that focuses on Support & Conditions and am very, very satisfied with it.  The people I run with love the combination of Chilled and Weakness on the boss plus heals on them - I think the damage reduction actually adds up to more most of the time than the healing from EA would have.

[FrancisCrawford]

Zoreye, on 18 November 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

This is a solid build that I think could use a bit more attention right now with everyone scrambling for a new build since the EA nerf. I've been using this for a while, and it's working out pretty well. I'm not yet fully geared (exotic armor, exotic staff, but only masterwork accessorys, 2 runes of Lyssa and minor sigil in Staff) and keep forgetting to buy the food though. Still, I can keep up a heft stack of AoE bleeds and a ton of chill, cripple and weakness.

Personally, I think chill is the most powerful condition, and being able to keep it up 100% against single targets (and near 100% still on multitargets) is pretty fantastic. On top of chill, you can stack weakness reducing damage even further, all while keeping up a steady stream of bleeds on multiple targets. Also of note is the Ice Bow now grants +20% Condition Duration for even more chill stacking goodness.

The EA nerf hurts, but I think builds like this are still very viable and assets to a group.

Does Chill really slow down the rate at which bosses uses nasty skills?

[justf0rnow]

Zoreye, on 18 November 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

This is a solid build that I think could use a bit more attention right now with everyone scrambling for a new build since the EA nerf. I've been using this for a while, and it's working out pretty well. I'm not yet fully geared (exotic armor, exotic staff, but only masterwork accessorys, 2 runes of Lyssa and minor sigil in Staff) and keep forgetting to buy the food though. Still, I can keep up a heft stack of AoE bleeds and a ton of chill, cripple and weakness.

Personally, I think chill is the most powerful condition, and being able to keep it up 100% against single targets (and near 100% still on multitargets) is pretty fantastic. On top of chill, you can stack weakness reducing damage even further, all while keeping up a steady stream of bleeds on multiple targets. Also of note is the Ice Bow now grants +20% Condition Duration for even more chill stacking goodness.

The EA nerf hurts, but I think builds like this are still very viable and assets to a group.

do mind explain to me how can you keep chill for 100% ?

[Aetou]

justf0rnow, on 18 November 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

do mind explain to me how can you keep chill for 100% ?

I don't know what he uses but something like Glyph of Elemental Power combined with maxed Condition Duration would come close to 100% chilled duration by itself (~5s CD, 4s duration.)  My own Chilled uptime is considerably lower, as I just have Staff 4 and Signet of Water providing it (I'm more about Weakness which you can keep up permanently even on a Defiant Boss and combined with Protection gives a 50% damage reduction.)

[Falcon07]

ether renewal i sbetter now, just a fyi they lowered the channel time of it

[Falcon07]

one thing i dont like about the conjured weapons is that youare then stuck with those 5 skills and cant use any of ur attunement skills unless you drop it.

[Zoreye]

FrancisCrawford, on 18 November 2012 - 06:41 PM, said:

Does Chill really slow down the rate at which bosses uses nasty skills?

I've been working off the assumption that is did, but I haven't actually done any testing. I really don't have that much experience at dungeon running (like I said, still not even fully geared), just trying to theory-promote things. If it doesn't...then yeah, focusing on chill probably isn't the best.

justf0rnow, on 18 November 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

do mind explain to me how can you keep chill for 100% ?

Again, not fully geared so I can't speak for sure. But Runes of Lyssa + Mad King = 20% Condition. Food is another 40% condition duration. Add another 2 runes for chill duration specifically (20%) and we're at +80% chill duration. From here, the original build has 20 fire which is another 20, the Ice Bow also gives 20 (only the conjured one though, not the one you pick up), you could give another 10% from sigil, or put some in water to reduce Frozen Ground cooldown.

Overall, let's assume +80% chill duration, though 100% (+100% is the cap) is reasonable to hit. That gives Frozen Ground a 3.5 second chill on each pulse for 5 seconds with a 32/40 second cooldown. This greatly benefited if your team can apply some projectile finishers to increase chill - I often also drop it then switch to earth to fire a few AAs for some more chill or use 2 for some Frost Armor (goes off just in time). And Ice Bow 3 will produce 6 second chills (x7) on a 15 second cooldown with another one spawning (you can either have someone else use it, or drop your bow immediately and pick it up after 15 seconds for another burst of chill).

And then you can go for Glyph of Elemental Power if you're really dedicated to stacking chill. You could perhaps even main the Frost Bow, sit in water for the Power chills, and use 3 on cooldown, and throw Frozen Ground when you swap for your other Bow (run out of charges). Probably gimping yourself pretty hard in other areas...but at least you can chill. This does assume the chill reduces Boss/normal mobs attack times.

Also looking back, 100% chill uptime might be pretty difficult...but this is by far the most chill any class can produce to my knowledge. Also OP mentions keeping perma-chill, so maybe it is possible. Like I said, this is mostly theory, I'm not someone with 100s of hours of dungeon experience.

Falcon07, on 19 November 2012 - 12:05 AM, said:

one thing i dont like about the conjured weapons is that youare then stuck with those 5 skills and cant use any of ur attunement skills unless you drop it.

I usually just summon them, drop the good spells - Bow 3, 4, 5 if no defiant stacks - then drop them and return to the rest. This can also be done while waiting on cooldowns for skills or attunements. Oh, you're locked out of everything useful? Summon an Ice Bow for a few seconds then drop it when things are back up. Then pick the other one up when you need it again. Ice Bow's not something that's probably good to use for extended periods of time (leave that to hammer and FGS), but it still has its uses as a utility imo.

Edited by Zoreye, 19 November 2012 - 04:17 AM.

[BrettM]

Zoreye, on 18 November 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

The EA nerf hurts, but I think builds like this are still very viable and assets to a group.

I think you've hit on an important principle. If a build will fall apart because of a change to one trait, then it isn't robust. It's a Flavor-of-the-Month build that opens you up to possible grief every time ANet pushes a new balance. This build, however, should perform satisfactorily even if you make some trait substitutions, so ANet changes are far less likely to break it.

[Dominique de Lombre]

BrettM, on 21 November 2012 - 02:24 PM, said:

I think you've hit on an important principle. If a build will fall apart because of a change to one trait, then it isn't robust. It's a Flavor-of-the-Month build that opens you up to possible grief every time ANet pushes a new balance. This build, however, should perform satisfactorily even if you make some trait substitutions, so ANet changes are far less likely to break it.

The problem is (and no offense to the author) this build IMHO isn't fun compared to the EA build. Now you could say "I was playing it wrong" but I never swapped attunements. I was mainly in earth only switching to water for heal/chill, and fire for objects (i.e. weapon rack). When I found an staff cantrip build that utilized EA, I swapped attunements more and felt useful and it was fun. This build is effective, so if you need a build and can't find one then try this because it works. But I play games for fun and I think I might just have to take a break...

[teflondon75]

Curious if this build is still a nice choice? Have not seen a reply on it for a bit so curiosity got the better of me! I'd love a build focusing on conditions through eruption + Weakness and chill debuffs. Anyhow, thanks!

[Nonlinear]

i use a similar build (I made a thread about it) and have been using it for the last couple of weeks.  It has nice survival from the 30 earth points and the vitality from Carrion gear.  Build is here:

http://en.gw2codex.c...f-fire-for-burn

I use different traits and skills then you do though.  Can keep up 18 stacks of bleed ez.  Can get complicated if there is more than one bleeder in the group that knows what it's doing (piddly little bleeds from things warrior GS crits don't count and will fall all within the 7 stack buffer you have).

I only put 10 in Fire and chose the extra three seconds of burning on Fire Signet and 20% CD on signet (Earth) to keep burning up 100% of the time with the signet.  Since I am already stacking condition damage and don't care about crit I don't care about losing the Fire Signet passive during CD.  

The low crit makes Elemental the ONLY choice for elite skill imo.  Fiery Greatsword and Tornado are based on crit and power and without 50% crit damage your direct damage is going to be total dog crap, like maybe 1.2k crits or so on your fireballs with a staff.  A Good direct damage build will throw normal fireballs for 1k+ and crit for about 2.4k+ up to 3k without group help (e.g. extra might/vulnerability/etc.).  If you want direct damage and aren't doing those numbers then you aren't getting 1:1 returns on all your damage stats and should focus on what you are doing well (i.e. condition damage).  The 10% extra damage when attuned to fire also doesn't apply to condition damage and only applies when you are in fire, which means you aren't spamming eruption or causing weakness and projectile finishing with your autoattack.  

Totally not worth investing into direct damage with this kind of build except for any bits of power that come with the 10% rune duration through Mad King Runes and whatever other runes you go with.

I also think Frost Bow is situational and kind of gimmicky (like most of our skills) and so I only slot it as needed (borrows, structures, etc.) otherwise I use something else (usually something I can spam).  I typically have one slot reserved for Sandstorm and one reserved for Fire Signet (both use all that condition damage) so I use the third for whatever the situation calls for.

Edited by Nonlinear, 05 December 2012 - 09:07 PM.

[Mekkakat]

Kitsune, on 22 October 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

Use the most broken, overpowered, single best condition removal skill in the game: Ether Renewal.

Nothing else in the game to my knowledge removes as many conditions on such a short cooldown, and honestly im very surprised it has gone unnoticed by the community at large (hope the devs dont catch wind of how amazing that heal is!).

lolwut?

I'm sorry - but ER is terrible in almost every way (and I WANT to love it). It's only good when you decide that either fighting is over, or you need to run/aren't being targeted.

[Nonlinear]

If I join a pug I usually ask if anyone stacks bleeds.  If there is someone else that can put up high bleed stacks I usually hop into LA and respec to GC.

A second ele specced fire for DPS and CD reduction can stack high might stacks when coupled with this build by putting lava fonts on your eruption rock animation.  

After asking if there are any other bleeders I tell the party that if they see my bubbling rock mound they can put fields on top of it and it will finish it for them with a blast.  Very nice when you have mezmers, guardians, GC eles and other classes that put down a lot of fields.  The fields also go with Earth 1.

Unlike pretty much every other ele meta build, I strongly believe that this build is at its best and is meant to be paired with someone who can put down fields for you (instead of being the one putting down the fields).  With a guardian who lays down a light field you can remove conditions with Earth 1 while providing area retaliation with eruption blast.  With another ele you can cause burning with Earth 1 and stack might with eruption on their lava fonts, as an asaru you can stay in earth, put down a radiation field and blast it yourself, etc.

Edited by Nonlinear, 05 December 2012 - 09:14 PM.

[Aetou]

teflondon75, on 05 December 2012 - 08:07 PM, said:

Curious if this build is still a nice choice? Have not seen a reply on it for a bit so curiosity got the better of me! I'd love a build focusing on conditions through eruption + Weakness and chill debuffs. Anyhow, thanks!

I still happily run my Support/Condition variant of this in both Dungeons and WvW and find it very effective (as long as I can get my team to kite mobs within Eruption instead of running around too crazily.)  It's very resilient and can do either damage or support as needed (frequently I keep people alive by swapping to protect them when they are low on health.)  Weakness, in particular, is amazing if you can keep it up 100% of the time on a boss (doable with +50% Duration.)

[Nonlinear]

Aetou, on 05 December 2012 - 10:27 PM, said:

I still happily run my Support/Condition variant of this in both Dungeons and WvW and find it very effective (as long as I can get my team to kite mobs within Eruption instead of running around too crazily.)  It's very resilient and can do either damage or support as needed (frequently I keep people alive by swapping to protect them when they are low on health.)  Weakness, in particular, is amazing if you can keep it up 100% of the time on a boss (doable with +50% Duration.)

Asaru make the build even stronger if you can squeeze Radiation Field on your bar for gimmick value (e.g. Burning Effigy).  CD is a little long but you can use it as a field while in Earth, it applies poison (reduces healing by 33%) and weakness (pretty sure poison benefits from all the condition damage and both poison and weakness benefit from duration increase but not 100%) and lasts 15 seconds so you can blast finish it yourself via Eruption for area weakness.

Edited by Nonlinear, 05 December 2012 - 11:08 PM.

[Aetou]

I actually run Reaper of Grenth quite often now.  It's CD is really a bit too long to be awesome but the Elemental bores me and the Chilled + Poison makes a really good panic button that has saved my skin more than a few times.

[BrettM]

Nonlinear, on 05 December 2012 - 09:13 PM, said:

Unlike pretty much every other ele meta build, I strongly believe that this build is at its best and is meant to be paired with someone who can put down fields for you (instead of being the one putting down the fields).

I agree, but that may be because I'm just too clumsy and slow to get the hang of putting down Eruption, switching attunements, and laying a field on top of it in time. Also, trying to do this immediately denies me access to the defensive Earth skills until the cooldown allows me to switch back, so I don't have them if the Eruption attracts aggro to me.

[Nonlinear]

BrettM, on 06 December 2012 - 03:20 PM, said:

I agree, but that may be because I'm just too clumsy and slow to get the hang of putting down Eruption, switching attunements, and laying a field on top of it in time. Also, trying to do this immediately denies me access to the defensive Earth skills until the cooldown allows me to switch back, so I don't have them if the Eruption attracts aggro to me.

yeah but finishing your own field is just a fun gimmick, hard to do in combat.  Better to let party members finish your eruption because of the delay.  I find myself in Earth almost the whole time during combat unless I need to swap to water and remove conditions.  Then i swap between a couple and put down fields until earth is back up.  Same deal when I am GC except I am fire almost the whole time.

[Nonlinear]

This build also has easy access to Earth ele.  I find earth ele very underrated it is like having a little tank while it is up.