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#1 Ivanbin

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 07:44 PM

I tried to ovoid on my Mesmer the other day... using 10/30/0/0/30 build.
I got destroyed so bad. Main problem I have is that I die insanely fast (but the damage is OK atleast).
I remember in particular getting ownd by a thief with death blossom, where I couldn't even run.
I keep hearing people say how everyone 's Mesmer just destroys the enemy in seconds... while I just die or in best case scenario end up with like 5k HP after a 1v1.

Did anyone have this problem? Any tips?

I did a mind wrack centered build and tried to open with GS's 4 and 2

#2 Symbiont

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 09:31 PM

Quote

10/30/0/0/30 build

really, that's what i'm playing right now. and wreck players who like to burst their damage on me. i main a thief, but my mesmer got more playtime as of now.

link your build here, can't help you without that info.

#3 Pysgasm

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 10:09 PM

I feel like it takes a different mindset to be a good mesmer. It's a very reactionary class. Forget the concept of predetermined skill rotations (with the exception of maybe a shatter build, to an extent...). Kind of like poker you need to understand levels of thinking and choose your skill usage in the appropriate spots. The way to get better at this is simply by making and experimenting through SPvP with every class and reading their forums to get an understanding of how they operate, and build recognition. Also watch videos, I'd recommend https://www.youtube.com/user/FameusGW2 he's got a lot of great builds. Mesmer is probably the most versatile class, and requires play unlike any other class I've played in any game. Practice, practice, practice...

Edited by Pysgasm, 17 October 2012 - 10:10 PM.


#4 Ivanbin

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Posted 17 October 2012 - 11:02 PM

Link: http://gw2skills.net...GbNuak1soYQx2CA

#5 Sunshine_N_Rainbows

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:08 AM

I don't understand the need for the extra 10 in dueling. I normally stop the dueling line at 20pts for illusion on dodge. Also you don't have nearly enough stun breaks/evasion for such a build which makes you into a glass cannon with poor mobility. Nix defender as it is useless and consider putting in null field instead of disenchanter as you are shatter heavy. I reccomend switching at protecter for mirror images, as it gives evasion (in a sense) and stun break.  Consider using staff instead of GS as it is a bit more defensive against melee and your not exatcly doing big hits with auto attack anyway ( I presume).  This is what I'd reccomend, taking some points out of glass cannon traits and putting them in protective traits, also switching to staff and putting on some runes that chill/grant vigor/etc on wep swap.

http://gw2skills.net...GbNuak1soYAy2CA

#6 Ivanbin

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:26 AM

Why no +20% mind wrack dmg?

#7 Sunshine_N_Rainbows

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 12:30 AM

That is probably necessary, so in that case I'd take the points out of insp and put them in dom.

#8 BumblebeeViper

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 02:40 PM

What Pysgasm said is sooth. You really have to learn to play the class. I have tried almost the full gamut of gear, loadout, and spec and though each combination alters play style a bit, it really comes down to knowing how mesmer.  I've run with precision/toughness/condition kit, with power/precision/critdmg kit, and with power/precision/condition kit, and though you change your loadout a little for each case, I found all three just as good as each other.

I've played confusion/condition, crit/critdmg, phantasm focus, clone shatter burst focus, and some other styles.  The first two I like and play equally.

I've tried each gear/spec kit with a GS/Staff combo, a Staff/S+P combo, and Staff/Scepter+Torch combo.  I can do equally as well with all combinations.  I don't really like the Scepter+Torch as I feel a bit gimped with it over the others, and killing is much slower for me with it.

The thing is what it all comes down to is your inherent class abilities and how to play them against your opponents.  At least from my experience with mesmer and other classes I have played, the mesmer is less gear and loadout dependent and more class skill and personal skill dependent.

Honestly, I wouldn't worry so much about gear and spec, read up and pick one, even the one you already have is likely sufficient, and focus more on learning to mesmer and finding your most comfortable and enjoyable play style.  I woudn't focus on vitality or toughness either.  Yes it makes you "glass cannon", but mesmer is by far the one class that vitality and toughness really don't matter once you know how to play the class.  Played well, you are the ultimate damage avoiding class.  Better to beef up your damage output.

I've found that what it really comes down to is keeping VERY mobile, popping clones out as often as you can while placing them strategically, using shatter often and strategically, and using phantasms well.  I keep the opponent constantly guessing, constantly looking to find me in the midst of all the confusing images, always trying to catch me while I am wearing him down.  This is for good opponents.  For bad opponents, you can just shatter burst them down and be done with them.

That all said, I have settled on GS/Staff mostly, but sometimes use Staff/S+P.  I "feel" better with GS/Staff though, I just have to be more on my toes than I do with S+P, but I like high pace frenzy.  Depending on my mood I use power/precision/critdmg gear, when I feel like bursty "panic the opponent" with big damage, or power/precision/condition gear when I feel like going confusion/condition, being more mobile and playing against overconfident opponents. With the former I feel more powerful, and with the latter I get greater satisfaction.

I usually carry the same PvP spec, loadout, and gearing (as much as possible because PvP gear differs from PvE gear a bit) for PvE and WvW.

My weapons are always berserker weapons (for PvE/WvW), regardless of my armor focus, and I put Earth sigils in them for the bleeds.  GS #1 + Earth yields constant massive bleed stacks. With my high crit chance, and proper loadout for my clones to cause bleeds on crits, I always have massive bleeds on my opponents, hardly ever falling below 10 stack at all times.  Bleed damage is a bit meh even with condition focused gear, but there is a good psychological aspect to it when the opponent has a high bleed stack on him at all times, and its essentially free constant DoT damage for you that will turn the battle if you and your opponent are solidly matched because as a mesmer you are in constant motion making him catch you while he bleeds to death.

Clone generation on dodge is critical. Dodging constantly is critical. Circle strafing when your opponent has closed on you is critical.  Dodging forward through them and turning 180 to face them from behind during a circle strafe I've found messes with even some of the good opponents, especially when they go to pull a high damage ability or stun on you.  Get some damage on them while they recover and turn to you, then if you have GS active push them back, or if staff, phase retreat. Strategic weapon swapping is critical.  Shattering strategically is critical, and especially knowing what shatter (F1-F4) to use when, as well as getting a good feel for when to sacrifice your phantasms in a shatter vs keeping them.  For me, and my play style if the fight is a frenzy, the phantasms last long enough to do their first damage, and then they go boom, because I'm constantly generating clones in the frenzy.  If the pace is more relaxed, I keep them around for their big damage bursts.

Use dodge constantly,  Use decoy as necessary and when you decoy, while you are stealthed perform a dodge, which pops out a clone.  This can fool your opponent into thinking you've come out of stealth and he goes for that clone, but you are actually still in stealth and gaining distance.  Once you pop out of stealth, make more clones either with another dodge, mirror images, or weapon skill.  You opponent has to waste precious time locating the real you.  For good opponents they will find you quickly, but you still gained that extra time to put more damage onto them, plus you now have distance that they have to close again.

Lastly, if you don't want to suffer the pain of learning by getting your butt kicked by real players until you are competitive, try honing your style in PvE, by tagging multiple mobs at the same time, start with 2 and as you get better move up to 4 or 5.  When you can juggle 5 comfortably with all your illusions, and wipe the floor with them, you should have learned how to mesmer sufficiently to go against good PvP opponents.  You'll have 1v1 in the bag, and win most of your 1v2.

I change my spec around, but this is what I currently favor for PvP:

http://www.gw2db.com...80|21080|21080|

For the utility skill loadout, mirror images and decoy are essential.  The third utility and the elite are up for grabs really.  Moa has its place and so does mass invis, but I think time warp is great 1v1 and really shines in team skirmishes.  I like feedback, but if you know you're going against necros, heavy condition opponents, or a condition/confusion mesmer, then Null Field is essential.  It is also a better "team player" skill.

For the Illusions trait line, I waver on the second changeable slot between VII.Illusionary Elasticity and X.Phantasmal Haste, but I also swap just about every choice in and out as I deem necessary for this slot, every single one of them for this slot has its place depending on your play style.

Edited by BumblebeeViper, 18 October 2012 - 03:43 PM.


#9 Breakin

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 04:44 PM

http://gw2skills.net...wlgLbNOukctEZIC

Try this if you want.

#10 Symbiont

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:07 PM

View PostIvanbin, on 17 October 2012 - 11:02 PM, said:


i got the same weapon-sets and the points spend on trait-lines, but not the same major traits choices and utilities.

however i used to play with a similar build like yours with massive amounts of clones and it was a nice start on practising and confusing the opponent.

one of my reason to play mesmer is because i had trouble finding the real mesmer with my thief, but after playing mesmer so much it's very easy to distinguish player movements and behaviour.

some mesmers try to trick players by not moving at all and it's easy to spot them as well, just notice the health-bar, it will go down much slower then it's clones.

#11 Ninja Battle Lion

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:15 PM

View PostBumblebeeViper, on 18 October 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

Clone generation on dodge is critical. Dodging constantly is critical.

I liked your post, but at this I have to say REALLY??? In my exp decent opponents are hardly ever fooled by the dodge Clone; furthermore by dodging heavily you run srs risk of eliminating your Phants before you want to. IMHO it's best to stick with the reduced CD traits. YMMV

Edited by Ninja Battle Lion, 18 October 2012 - 05:16 PM.


#12 BumblebeeViper

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 05:41 PM

Dodge cloning is for constant shatters and stacking bleeds.  I should have made that more clear.  It definitely does not fool anyone that knows their mesmer opponent.  What fools them is decoy + dodge while stealthed, and even that has limited hang time on its trickery, because once you unstealth, it becomes obvious who the real one is.  The benefit though is that your opponent will think your stealth+dodge clone is the real thing for a couple of seconds, and in a frenzy melee two seconds is precious.

There is a case where dodge cloning WILL fool experienced opponents, and that is if they may have been momentarily distracted, and you are near a drop off point for LoS, dodge before dropping off, and they will only see your clone.  It is a limited occurrence honestly but effective.  However this is only useful for getting away, because you LoS yourself too.  

In a frenzied fight I am pumping out clones constantly for shatters and bleeds, but there is another reason as well, though it is not applicable to the build I posted.  I also run a build 20/20/10/0/20 when I go for Condition/Confusion.  In this build, for Domination I pick V. Crippling Dissipation, and for Chaos I pick V. Debilitating Dissipation.  There is good synergy here because I cripple and stack conditions on my opponent constantly.  He is almost perma crippled every time he closes on me.

In this case, I blow through my clones and phantasms like crazy, for one reason.  Illusion death and their associated effects.  Illusion death is different from shatter.  When you shatter an illusion you do NOT get death effects.  However, when you spawn a new clone or phantasm when you already have 3 up, the FIFO (first in first out) illusion dies automatically, insta cripples the opponent and stacks a random condition on him.  

I often like to fight close, and this is golden, because my clones are within aoe range when they die.  And every time I summon one, the fifo one dies.  Since my opponent is perma crippled I can always get away from him when I need a breather to recover my health or my wits.

Edit:  Also, the dodge cloning does become effective in confusing the hell out of people in small multi-person (both sides) skirmishes.  Your main opponent knows who the real you is, but his team mates fighting your team mates do not, and when they see their teammate getting melted and come to his aid, they often help your opponent by mistakenly going after your clones, allowing to to finish melting him unabated.  That isn't why I make heavy use of dodge cloning, as mentioned, but is is a distinct ancillary benefit.

Edited by BumblebeeViper, 18 October 2012 - 06:02 PM.


#13 xLOKIx0830

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 08:04 PM

View PostBumblebeeViper, on 18 October 2012 - 02:40 PM, said:

Clone generation on dodge is critical. Dodging constantly is critical. Circle strafing when your opponent has closed on you is critical.

Use dodge constantly,  Use decoy as necessary and when you decoy, while you are stealthed perform a dodge, which pops out a clone.

http://www.gw2db.com...80|21080|21080|

One thing that confused me, when looking at your build, is if dodge clones are so critical, why did you decide to go with sigils of earth for both weapons and not sigils of energy, to maximize your dodging potential?

#14 BumblebeeViper

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Posted 18 October 2012 - 10:03 PM

Good point about Energy sigils.  I honestly haven't even tried them yet. I'm still very much in a learning mode. I get better each day, but I have a LONG way to go.  I'll definitely try them out and see.  I usually don't starve for energy to dodge, but there are times when I do, and that is usually when I take the heat and I start to fumble.  

The energy sigils grant 50% energy recovery a maximum of every 9 seconds and only on a weapon swap.  I really don't swap weapons terribly often.  I do it strategically but I'd never do it specifically just to get a proc.  I use GS at distance and Staff up close, though I will switch on the fly to get out two phantasms or to "fus do rah" with the GS if phase retreat is on cooldown, or vice versa if  illusionary wave is on cooldown.  And 50% every 9 seconds seems to be marginal to me when compared to a 60% chance on crit for 5s bleed that stacks.  With GS #1 hitting 3 times per "cast", and with my high crit chance, I stack bleeds like a maniac.

A lot of it all comes down to the pace of the fight.  If the pace is slower, I dodge less, try and preserve phantasms more, and only shatter when I can immediately put my phantasms back up.  In most cases though the pace is a complete frenzy and I only have so many multitasking brain threads to devote to it and those are usually dedicated to movement and avoidance while keeping my damage output, while not fat-fingering the keyboard, and I fall back to more dodges, clones, and quicker shatters.  I'm getting old and I don't multitask as well as I used to.

Still trying out new things, switching gear, runes, sigils, specs.  I really have favored heavy condition/confusion focus in the past and I'm still transitioning to bursty shatter damage focus, and the Earth sigils carried over, Even with power/precision/critdmg (no +condition) I still like those super bleed stacks.

One thing about mesmer, is that I have yet to find a "perfect" build (gear, spec, etc), AT ALL.  I honestly don't think there is one, or even just a few.  When I switch things around, I find it very difficult to ascertain if the change was for the better or worse.  It always seems fairly marginal, which is why I really feel that the mesmer class is more about play style than anything else.

Edited by BumblebeeViper, 18 October 2012 - 10:41 PM.


#15 xLOKIx0830

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Posted 19 October 2012 - 02:46 AM

Right now I'm in the process of learning every class I can to proficiency, and I chose today to be my "learn to mesmer" day. I started off with a phantasm build with phantasms doing 2-3k crits each hit, which was good, but I couldn't stand the idea of not doing the damage myself, and to hold myself back from pressing those tempting shatters.

So I look on guru, find this thread, and read what you have to say, thought it looked interesting, and after playing a shatter based clone generate build like this, I fell in love. I'm definitely not at the point where I'd say I'm skilled at the class, but I was doing really well in pvp today, winning 95% of my 1v1s and surviving and outlasting people in 1v2. I think I died maybe twice out of over 30 pvp matches.

I have to say though, I'm a freaking lunatic when I play mesmer. I'm constantly dodging, popping phantasms, switching weapons, and shattering pretty much as soon as I hit 3 clones, then do it all over again. For this, energy sigils are what makes it possible. I can see the reasoning for using earth sigils, but if you're not condition based, they really aren't contributing much damage. Not as much as more shatters would do at least.

#16 derek1240

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 04:36 PM

View PostNinja Battle Lion, on 18 October 2012 - 05:15 PM, said:

I liked your post, but at this I have to say REALLY??? In my exp decent opponents are hardly ever fooled by the dodge Clone; furthermore by dodging heavily you run srs risk of eliminating your Phants before you want to. IMHO it's best to stick with the reduced CD traits. YMMV
its not just dodging you have to be unpredictable with your blinks as well to make them ahve to spin the camera round to see you. If you blink backwards or some other predictable location of course they will know which one is you.




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