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A Comprehensive Look at the Flamethrower (And Elixir Gun)

flamethrower elixir gun eg ft might power build support control

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#31 Zarffa

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:27 PM

View PostIsti, on 25 October 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

I don't want to be a wet blanket here, but I think my experience is worth sharing.  My first dungeon build was designed around alchemy and the elixir gun - I wanted to be a healer/buffer.  Like Toaster, I got hammered every time I went in an instance, and I felt like I wasn't contributing enough.  The movement requirements of some fights are such that I couldn't get my group to stand still for my super elixir or healing turret, so all those HoTs were just wasted.  Next, I tried a tanky Flamethrower build, and the first dungeon we did was Ascalonian Catacombs.  We tried one of the paths with all the graveling burrows, and knowing that those things had to die FAST, I planted myself right next to them, and MissMissMissMissMissMiss.  I had to go respec so we could finish the instance.  In sum, I've tried the FT/EG setup in dungeons, and each one separately, and it hasn't gone well.  That's partly the fault of buggy mechanics with the FT and in some of the dungeons (the burrow hitboxes are actually underground, for example).

So if you have a hard time with FT/EG, don't beat yourself up.  I've sort of come to the conclusion that these types of builds are very situationally useful.  If you haven't got one of the preferred situations, don't be surprised if you have some trouble.  It might be worth having a rifle/grenades build + appropriate gear, just in case.  I keep going back to my 30/20/0/0/20 build, particularly for dungeons.  The FT is great for the Orr DE circuit, world exploration, and WvW, but I've had a lot of trouble with it in dungeons, and I'm grateful to have so many backup options as an Engineer.

I am thinking of sticking with his build but instead of Knight's armour I am thinking of trying out a Dungeon's Power/Toughness/Vitality armour set so I don't die as often. +300 precision might be more than enough already, so rather than that additional precision, Vitality might prove more useful. Maybe someone that has more time to play and sucks less than I can let us know how it works out with Dungeon armour over Knight's.

#32 Isti

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:57 PM

View PostiToasterHD, on 25 October 2012 - 09:27 PM, said:

I am thinking of sticking with his build but instead of Knight's armour I am thinking of trying out a Dungeon's Power/Toughness/Vitality armour set so I don't die as often. +300 precision might be more than enough already, so rather than that additional precision, Vitality might prove more useful. Maybe someone that has more time to play and sucks less than I can let us know how it works out with Dungeon armour over Knight's.

I'm building a PTV set, also, with an eye toward super tanky FT play.  I plan to use Knight's jewelry and replace the slotted gems with Crests of the Soldier for even more PTV, until I accumulate 2k Badges of Honor to buy the WvW jewelry.  My plan is to get a rifle and legs from dungeons, which I've already accomplished, and now I need to farm enough karma for three more pieces of Temple armor, plus the mats for the jewels.  Of course, if you want the PTV armor, you still have to do something to get it, which means you still have to run a lot of dungeons or farm a lot of karma.

If you take the Karma route, you can use your FT build to great effect the whole way to your goal.  If you want to run dungeons, it might be better for your sanity to try a build that lets you stand farther away from the action until you're durable enough to stand at melee-ish range.  This goes double if you want your PTV set, because the dungeons you can get that from are Ascalonian Catacombs (where I had so much trouble with graveling burrows), Honor of the Waves (where two of the paths involve a lot of water combat where grenades are king), and Arah (with which I have little experience, but I know it's no cakewalk).  Just some food for thought.


ETA:  The Ghastly Rifle from AC is a pretty awesome skin.

Edited by Isti, 25 October 2012 - 09:58 PM.


#33 The Net Goblin

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:44 PM

View PostMajic, on 25 October 2012 - 08:16 PM, said:

Backpack Regenerator

Orr being what it is, I decided to try a tankier build so I could stay in fights and handle small groups better. The centerpiece of that approach is a 0/30/10/30/0 allocation that includes Juggernaut and Backpack Regenerator -- my new must-have trait.

All it does is give me 125 health every second, no matter what. That turns out to be HUGE when combined with Juggernaut. I also like to pop cheap Peach Pies to gain additional health/second, all of which stacks with the renegeration I get from boons and, in dire straits, Low Health Response System.

I top off Alchemy with Deadly Mixture, for the 15% damage bonus, instead of a Grandmaster trait, and Fast-Acting Elixirs for the Adept, although I do like Protection Injection as an alternate.

I don't do as much damage as I would with a more power-heavy build, but being able to literally just stand there and burn monsters down with little or no kiting works very well, and gives me a nice safety margin when I draw a lot of aggro in DE zergs -- which I do quite often.

I ran with grenades from lvl 50-80, but once I was at 80, I tried a fresh, full-on tanky Flamethrower build and really, really like it. :)

Could you post this build in the builder?  It sounds Interesting as well.

#34 Phineas Poe

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 01:13 AM

View PostiToasterHD, on 25 October 2012 - 04:54 PM, said:

I definitely think I enjoyed having two kits and a rifle. I like swapping my skills a lot and figuring out when is the best time to use which skill/weapon kit. However, being curb-stomped really took the gem out of my donut. My guild suggested that my appreciable difference in armour as compared to their's caused me to be considered by AI as an "easy target" so once I get exotic armour and jewelry I will fair better. So until then I will try to hold out and keep experimenting.

I am really sorry to hear about this. I really wouldn't want high quality armor to be a barrier to this build, because exotic armor is kinda hard to get when you first hit level 80. What is the quality of your current armor? How were you playing the build? I'm curious what caused major problems for you, as my mic has been broken for about a month now and I've since not bothered going on dungeon runs with my guild. I've done runs before, with builds similar to this one, but I'm not sure how much running 20 points in Tools (or more) will affect your survivability.


View PostIsti, on 25 October 2012 - 08:50 PM, said:

The FT is great for the Orr DE circuit, world exploration, and WvW, but I've had a lot of trouble with it in dungeons, and I'm grateful to have so many backup options as an Engineer.

It perplexes me that you guys are having so many issues. It's true I just said I haven't used this exact build in a dungeon yet, but I have used the Flamethrower and Elixir Gun in dungeons before, and I can't say the experience is at all much different mechanically from using it in the field. If anything, its superior control/defensive attributes are what should make it shine over using grenades which, in reality, offer almost no defensive skills aside from crippling and blinding. For the longest time I ran a support build using the Elixir Gun, Net Turret, and whatever elixir I felt like using at the time. It worked just fine.

I'll try and get around to actually buying a mic and try some explorable runs this weekend with my guild. These posts concern me.

#35 Zarffa

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 03:02 PM

View PostPhineas_Poe, on 26 October 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

I am really sorry to hear about this. I really wouldn't want high quality armor to be a barrier to this build, because exotic armor is kinda hard to get when you first hit level 80. What is the quality of your current armor? How were you playing the build? I'm curious what caused major problems for you, as my mic has been broken for about a month now and I've since not bothered going on dungeon runs with my guild. I've done runs before, with builds similar to this one, but I'm not sure how much running 20 points in Tools (or more) will affect your survivability.

I'm not really sure what I am doing wrong just yet. Perhaps I am just not dodging enough? I will just continue playing Engineer and hopefully I will develop enough skill to no longer have trouble. Though, I am still not sure how I feel about the flamethrower. I must admit, I did also enjoy having grenades and just sitting back, away from danger, and wreaking havoc. As I said, I may dabble into Princess' build with Grenades/Elixir Gun. Time will tell I suppose.

#36 Isti

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 03:30 PM

View PostPhineas_Poe, on 26 October 2012 - 01:13 AM, said:

I am really sorry to hear about this. I really wouldn't want high quality armor to be a barrier to this build, because exotic armor is kinda hard to get when you first hit level 80. What is the quality of your current armor? How were you playing the build? I'm curious what caused major problems for you, as my mic has been broken for about a month now and I've since not bothered going on dungeon runs with my guild. I've done runs before, with builds similar to this one, but I'm not sure how much running 20 points in Tools (or more) will affect your survivability.




It perplexes me that you guys are having so many issues. It's true I just said I haven't used this exact build in a dungeon yet, but I have used the Flamethrower and Elixir Gun in dungeons before, and I can't say the experience is at all much different mechanically from using it in the field. If anything, its superior control/defensive attributes are what should make it shine over using grenades which, in reality, offer almost no defensive skills aside from crippling and blinding. For the longest time I ran a support build using the Elixir Gun, Net Turret, and whatever elixir I felt like using at the time. It worked just fine.

I'll try and get around to actually buying a mic and try some explorable runs this weekend with my guild. These posts concern me.

I think a large part of the problem is the unfortunate collision of the Flamethrower's limitations/bugs with the particular instances one can run to obtain the tankish armor that makes the FT such a strong option.  As I've said before, your choices are AC, HotW, and Arah.  AC and HotW are generally viewed as the path of least resistance toward accumulating enough tokens to get a full set plus weapon(s).  In AC, you have to be able to hit architecture elements whose hitboxes are below the ground (an acknowledged bug).  The FT can't fire up or down - it fires parallel to the ground, period.  That means you miss these architecture elements with FT, and there's nothing you can do about it.  You have to use a weapon you haven't specced for during these fights, and your damage output suffers as a result.  

There are areas of HotW, including bosses, where you fight underwater.  You've invested all these talent points into making the FT awesome, but you can't use it in the water.  Groups rely on strong aquatic classes (like Grenadiers) to get them through these areas, whereas your grenades will be weak and your harpoon gun skills not much better in a FT spec.  If you spec FT, you're going to be weaker in water than you are on land; that's not something you can avoid, which makes HotW more difficult.

Under most circumstances, I think the FT build(s) we've been batting around would be fine.  However, if you want tanky gear for your FT spec, the dungeons you need to run to get it are not ideally suited to FT use.  My view is undoubtedly biased, since I've been running these two instances almost exclusively to get my tank gear set up.  I'll try to run some different dungeons now that I have the gear set, though we're in tier 1 with a call for all-hands-to-battle-stations in WvW this week.

#37 NaviLan

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 07:54 AM

Hi, it's a very interesting topic about the engineer, it was my very first character of the game, the first i raised to lvl 80 and  I have to say that it was my first headache of the game too e,e. Why? because its diffcult to get a competitive build for everything (WvW, PVE, dungeon, PVP) at least it is for me xD. i dont have this problem with other classes.

Someone wrote that FT is good for WvW, i dont think so I prefer grenades + elexir gun + elixir B/U/S and speedy kits. You can AoE the walls of the castle with grenades and switch to elixir gun to do some condition damage, speedy kit its a must becuase of the large distance at WvW. If u are aiming to be a grenadier, you should have 30 trait Explosives and TRAIT XI but i hate aiming with the mouse all the time and i discarded grenade kit while doing PVE (except for water).

I usually run with a 10/30/0/30/0 build (elixir B, bomb kit, flamethrower)...yeah kind of weird but it works for me,  the idea is that if i got ambushed by many monsters i change to bomb kit, it saved me a lot of times although im not a bomber e,e.

For dungeons i use the same build, but with different skills: Elixir H, Net turret, Thumper turret, FT, supply crate and my loyal rifle with +6% magic find :) i have many CC options, 2 net shots, knockback and the benefits from overcharging the turrets, from time to time i throw elixir H and remove conditions. I think the Ft´s damage is quite good, nothing spectacular but good. (Thinking about make me a Turret-build for dungeons, turrets suck for PVE lol)

However i really wonder how much FT can be improved with end game armor and runes. If we are talking about a tanky-type, what are his final stats? above 2.5k armor and around 3k attack???

PVP.....forget FT, i tried and i always MISS MISS MISS MISS, the only useful attacks are Flame Blast and Air Blast both very situational.

Well these are my experiences with the engineer, i always try to get FT in my builds because is fun xDDDD, that's the only reason.

#38 Zoogma

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 04:40 PM

I just posted this in another thread (link), but I think it might be useful here as well.

--------------- Gear ---------------

For gear, I think that the Flamethrower thrives on Power/Crit. So I went Knight's/Beserker's set, focusing on Power/Precision/Toughness and Crit damage. I get my vitality from the Alchemy tree.

Even though it is a Flamethrower, the burns on it are somewhat lackluster. It gives 3 burns; Skill 1, 4 and the toolbelt. The toolbelt is the only one with a significant burn duration. Other conditions we apply come from random rolls after critical hits - two random procs. I personally don't want to stack condition damage because half of the conditions we apply are a random chance.

While the Elixir gun does have good conditions, I mostly use this for the utility and Super Elixir (5).

--------------- Traits ---------------

Your traits seem good, but I like to run with a 0/30/0/20/20 build. This gives juicy 20% crit damage and you get Speedy Kits/Kit refinement. Kit Refinement gives you basically 100% Super Elixir uptime - meaning tons of condition removal and an extra heal to stack with Regeneration/Backpack Regenerator.

--------------- Tanky Rune Comparison ---------------

I just wanted to point out the Health Regeneration from the Dolyak runes only ticks for 30, unaffected by healing power. This is a rather insignificant number in my opinion. However, it does stack with Backpack Regenerator and the Regeneration boon which is nice.

Alternatively, you could look into Dwayna runes. I believe medkit triggers the regeneration effect, which means almost 100% regeneration uptime (especially with some Alchemy traits). So you'd miss out on the 30 health tick, but since you gain +165 Healing Power from these runes, that alone adds+ over 20 health to the Regeneration boon tick.

Another alternative is Forge runes. The burning duration (15%) can't hurt and if used with the +20% burn duration trait, it would increase the flamethrower toolbelt skill to a 4s burn. You also get toughness and +20% protection duration. With 20-30 points in Alchemy, you will get 14-15 seconds of protection at 50% health. This is huge because it reduces damage by 33%.

In my opinion, these are probably the 3 best rune sets for a tanky FT/EG build. Here's a stat totals TL;DR version.

Dwayna
+165 Healing Power
+20% Regeneration Duration
5% chance to get Regeneration(10s) on hit
When you use a healing skill, you and all nearby allies gain Regeneration(5s). 10s cooldown

Forge
+165 Toughness
+15% Burn Duration
+20% Protection Duration
At 50% health gain Protection(10s) and burn all nearby foes. (60s) cooldown

Dolyak
+165 Toughness
+50 Vitality
Gain Health Regeneration (30 health/tick)

Edited by Zoogma, 29 October 2012 - 04:41 PM.


#39 draxynnic

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 11:47 PM

They're random chances to proc, but the reason flamethrower is seen as good for conditions is that with high Precision it creates a lot of opportunities to proc. Still, going the condition route is generally assuming you're taking advantage of the trait synergy with the elixir gun - if you're not, Power will certainly also work well with a flamethrower, especially if your backup weapon is a rifle.
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#40 Phineas Poe

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 02:11 PM

View PostNaviLan, on 28 October 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

PVP.....forget FT, i tried and i always MISS MISS MISS MISS, the only useful attacks are Flame Blast and Air Blast both very situational.

Why do you think Air Blast is "very situational?" It's a knockback/interrupt on a 15-second cooldown. The only other knockback we have with comparably low down time is Overcharged Shot, which also knocks us down in the process. In WvW and sPvP, I'd use Air Blast instead of Overcharged Shot 10 times out of 10, especially in 1-on-2 situations.

You're also completely ignoring the AoE blinding ability of Smoke Vent, or Napalm's 10-second Burn which creates a Fire combo field. Use one of our many Blast finishers, and that's a few extra stacks of Might.

It's true that the Flamethrower's mechanics may force you to miss some blasts, but once you get the hang of how it works, you get used to its quirks. The further away you are from your target, the less movement you should make. But if they're right up in your grill, you can spin in circles around enemies and the Flamethrower hits them just fine. I've noticed it works most efficiently just outside melee range, which is also the appropriate range needed for Flame Blast's AoE to hit your target. Abusing Net Shot is a great way to make it feel less "situational" and a more pivotal part to your rotation.

Edited by Phineas_Poe, 31 October 2012 - 02:12 PM.


#41 ZCKS

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 02:30 PM

View PostKrisa, on 18 October 2012 - 11:08 PM, said:

I like the elixar gun personally over the flame thrower , i mean Flamethrower is cool to use and always fun burning things , just feel the elixar gun is better. Has better range and helps both doing dmg / conditions and removing conditions from allies.


This, + the AOE regin for allies, AOE healing field & the spammable single target weakness are great for keeping allies alive.

#42 CepaCepa

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 06:31 PM

I wanted to get a flamethrower build for my full berserker glass cannon grenadier engineer, basically hoping that I'd have the freedom to switch between fights when dodges, elixirs, and 1500 range won't save me in the up coming battle (which are rare occasions but when they happen, they're quite annoying). I was hoping, that the flamethrower would still be able to put out decent damage. I mention damage here because even if I'm packing on more survival stats for some particular situations, I'd still need to put out big enough damage. Afterall the group invited me knowing that I'm a glass cannon, so I assume that they'd want me to dish out my duty. The original plan is to get just 3-6 pieces of toughness/vitality armor while keeping the other armor/accessory as berserker, and benefit from the 200 toughness that flamethrower gives me.

So before I drop the gold/token on the exotics, I tested it out that setup in dungeon yesterday.

And the damage is just, like, bad. :( I'm losing AT LEAST half of my damage compared to a grenadier spec with same gears/traits. Granted, I was testing the FT in 30 30 10 0 0 so I didn't get the 20% damage increase, but the extra power should somewhat alleviate this problem --- Besides, even with a 20% buff in damage, it still does not compete with grenade damage at all. Not to mention the "missmissmissmissmiss" train that I get on pretty much any structure --- Having to switch mid-fight to pistols for structures is quite miserable (yeah, pistols. I would've put on the rifle if I'd known).

This was disheartening since I've been preparing for this FT offset for a while now, even picked out the skins I want on these gears and everything... Several people on the forum have suggested that FT can be close to grenade damage (which is why I went down this road anyways, on hindsight I should've tested it before making plans), how do you achieve that? Maybe I'm just having a LTP issue here or missing out some major points... How do you get flamethrower to do at least comparable damage to grenades? I know it won't surpass grenades, but something like 80-90% would be more acceptable... :(

Edited by CepaCepa, 31 October 2012 - 06:42 PM.


#43 Isti

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 06:52 PM

View PostNaviLan, on 28 October 2012 - 07:54 AM, said:

Someone wrote that FT is good for WvW, i dont think so I prefer grenades + elexir gun + elixir B/U/S and speedy kits. You can AoE the walls of the castle with grenades and switch to elixir gun to do some condition damage, speedy kit its a must becuase of the large distance at WvW.

I've taken my Flamethrower Supertank build into WvW a couple of times now, and I can confirm that it is SO MUCH FUN if you're doing a lot of open-field skirmishing.  Wall sieges/defenses make you feel a bit like a paperweight (decorative but not very useful), but charging into the fray with the flamethrower is just as much fun as I expected it would be.  It was so much fun, in fact, that ALL of our grenadiers spent a frenzied week farming Power/Toughness/Vitality gear to try it with me.  We ran with the heavies and generally charged the flank first to instigate chaos before the hammer wielders crashed through the front lines to start running amok.  The damage is respectable, but certainly not amazing.  The advantage is that you are almost as resilient as a heavy: 3k+ armor with 2k+ toughness in FT, 2k+ Power, and 3k+ Attack.  It was great to be able to fight in melee and not get vaporized for a change.  

Next on my list: apply the tank gear I've acquired to a bombhealer support build and see how effective it is (if at all).

#44 Phineas Poe

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 02:16 PM

View PostCepaCepa, on 31 October 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

How do you get flamethrower to do at least comparable damage to grenades? I know it won't surpass grenades, but something like 80-90% would be more acceptable... :(

This build is not meant to compete with the Grenade Kit in damage. I tried to make that as explicit as possible in the OP. If you're searching for the best damage-dealing set-up, you won't find it here. What you will find, instead, is a more resilient Engineer set-up for PvE and WvW. The damage of the Flamethrower should be more than respectable, with the right gear and trait selection. But it was never my intention to make this about replacing the Grenade Kit as a damage build. That build is great for what it does, and if being a "glass cannon" is what you prefer, then by all means: continue doing so. I just didn't want other players believing that all-out DPS is the only way to succeed in this game. Ever since changing to my FT/EG, I'm not only clearing content just as efficiently as I did before with an Explosives build, I'm having a lot more fun in the process.

But if you're serious about trying the Flamethrower, I think the source of your grief is that you're running it without the right gear or traits. Try some of the builds suggested in this thread, and drop the 30 points in Explosives.

View PostIsti, on 31 October 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

Next on my list: apply the tank gear I've acquired to a bombhealer support build and see how effective it is (if at all).

That's something I've also been curious about. Having a full Cleric's set, I would like to see how it performs with actually good gear.

Edited by Phineas_Poe, 01 November 2012 - 02:13 PM.


#45 CepaCepa

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:47 PM

View PostPhineas_Poe, on 01 November 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

This build is not meant to compete with the Grenade Kit in damage. I tried to make that as explicit as possible in the OP. If you're searching for the best damage-dealing set-up, you won't find it here. What you will find, instead, is a more resilient Engineer set-up for PvE and WvW. The damage of the Flamethrower should be more than respectable, with the right gear and trait selection. But it was never my intention to make this about replacing the Grenade Kit as a damage build. That build is great for what it does, and if being a "glass cannon" is what you prefer, then by all means: continue doing so. I just didn't want other players believing that all-out DPS is the only way to succeed in this game. Ever since changing to my FT/EG, I'm not only clearing content just as efficiently as I did before with an Explosives build, I'm having a lot more fun in the process.

But if you're serious about trying the Flamethrower, I think the source of your grief is that you're running it without the right gear or traits. Try some of the builds suggested in this thread, and drop the 30 points in Explosives.



That's something I've also been curious about. Having a full Cleric's set, I would like to see how it performs with actually good gear.

Yeah I understand what the build is meant for, I was just asking since you guys seemed to know a lot more about how to maximize the efficiency of the flamethrower, it's not a troll post! My position is that I perfectly understand that damage is not everything, I've got 2 out of my 4 level 80s being support/hybrid builds at the moment. But for MY engineer particularly, damage is a priority, it's just a personal choice and it's what our group composition would benefit from. I'm hoping that with flamethrower I can be a bit tougher than a grenadier glass cannon, AND that I'd still be able to do at least 80% of a grenadier's damage, and wondering if you guys have found that to be possible.

I'll try a full out flamethrower build one of these days then, switching points from explosions to get the 20% damage increase, and hopefully the numbers would then be a lot more friendlier... :( I'm running it with full exotic berserker, and only comparing direct damage to that of a grenadier build (since grenades obviously stacks quite a bit of conditions too), so I think for the sake of this comparison gears don't matter THAT much.

#46 Isti

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 07:34 PM

View PostPhineas_Poe, on 01 November 2012 - 02:16 PM, said:

That's something I've also been curious about. Having a full Cleric's set, I would like to see how it performs with actually good gear.

Hi Phineas.  I've done a variety of testing with a bombhealer build in the PvP lobby and in the wild.  I've concluded that, unless you plan on  healing only yourself (and only healing yourself rather than doing anything else competently), you might as well not invest in +Healing Power.  On self heals and ground-target regens (which you have to get people to stay in), the conversion of Points Increased Heal per Point Healing Power Invested (hereafter PPPI) is not bad, maybe 0.4 - 0.8 PPPI @ +1388 Healing Power.  The conversion on bombheals is dismal - 0.08 PPPI (175 -> 286 per explosion).  Of course, this scales better with number of people in range, so if you plan to use it in a giant WvW zerg, it might be worth it.  If you're just working with a max group size of 5, I'd say it's not worth it to stack healing power.  You're better off making sure you are survivable so you can continue to heal, and making sure your bombs do more damage so the bad guys die faster.

So far, I like (for versatility) a hybrid grenadier/bombhealer build, 30/0/30/0/10 (Increased radius, Explosive Powder, Grenadier, Energized Armor, Power Shoes, Elixir-Infused Bombs, Speedy Kits).  I wore my standard tank setup - full P/T/V gear with 6x Superior Rune of the Fighter, mix of Valkyrie and Knight jewels.  Utilities are Grenade Kit, Bomb Kit, Med Kit, Throw Mine (for a handy blast finisher), Supply Crate.  So far, it's hard to argue against its versatility - you have good ranged damage, respectable melee damage, small but reliable AoE healing, single target and AoE immobilize, 2 extremely useful fields (fire and smoke) plus poison, and 3 blast/1 leap/1 projectile finishers.  I feel like a Swiss Army Knife.  If you have a chance to try it in full Cleric gear, I'd be very interested to know what you think about survivability and overall damage and healing.  I used the above build in an epic Stonemist siege (turtled in the lord room), and the heal numbers were going up in such a huge cloud that I couldn't even read them.  Between me and the other healers, I don't think anybody's health moved even when we were under heavy assault.

#47 Little Bird

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 07:55 AM

Thank you for this thread. I'm going to try some of the builds mentioned here. My issue is that I still don't understand traits. The system is so different compared to Guild Wars 1.

#48 Phineas Poe

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:57 AM

View PostLittle Bird, on 09 November 2012 - 07:55 AM, said:

Thank you for this thread. I'm going to try some of the builds mentioned here. My issue is that I still don't understand traits. The system is so different compared to Guild Wars 1.

You're very welcome. Though the general understanding of traits goes beyond the intention of this thread, if you have any questions regarding how traits work with the Flamethrower or Elixir Gun, please do not hesitate to ask.

.....

So I took a break for a few weeks to play other games and focus on graduate school (November/April is always brutal), and since returning I saw they noticeably buffed the Tool Kit. I tried, as a way of changing things up, using it in conjunction with the Bomb Kit and Grenade Kit. That didn't work very well.

But being a melee-range kit, similar to the Flamethrower, I've been testing it out and it actually works remarkably well with the 30/20/20 split between Firearms/Alchemy/Tools. Firearms remains your Flamethrower/Rifle tree, and Alchemy remains as your Elixir Gun tree ... with a couple exceptions. Infused Precision + Invigorating Speed gives your Engi relatively good mobility at melee range when using the Tool Kit. But beyond that, not much changes from my original build except the optional swap of Power Wrench in the Tools tree.

I've been examining its viability open world in both Orr and Southsun Cove. Because of my aforementioned academic obligations, along with my recent interest in leveling an Elementalist, I just haven't had time to bother with fractal runs yet---so the Tool Kit's viability is untested in that regard for the time being.

With the usual P/V/T or Knight's setup, here's what I've found:

1.  The Tool Kit is actually relatively amazing as an "opener" kit. It completely nullifies any karka's starting burst attack, and Pry Bar criticals offer some pretty significant spike damage with Smack's three-hit combo.

2.  Box of Nails as a mid-combat attack is relatively mediocre, but it procs through Kit Refinement. Between kit swapping and the active use of Box of Nails, there's a hefty amount of crippling to a build that already offered relatively significant single-target and AoE control skills.

3. Magnet is perhaps the most useful addition to this build. With a buffed extended range of 1,200 ... you can pull stuff from relatively far distances. As Flamethrower needs targets to be at relatively close range, Magnet simply helps make that possible. It also works as another "soft" interrupt, but you have to time it well.



All in all, for general PvE use it's a viable choice. I'm not sure I'd use three kits in PvP or WvW, but if anyone's looking for a good spice to break the monotony of their Flamethrower build, give the Tool Kit a try. It certainly works well in conjunction with the FT/EG build.

Edited by Phineas_Poe, 28 November 2012 - 06:57 AM.


#49 Devinchi

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 07:42 AM

View PostIsti, on 24 October 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

This means that, in 20 seconds: Elixir H has healed for 6990, removed a condition, provided 5 seconds of protection, and given 11 seconds of Swiftness.  Med kit has healed for 15,840, removed conditions twice, provided 11 seconds of Fury, and given 20 seconds of Swiftness.  Even if you traited for longer-duration elixir effects, why would you consider Elixir H to be the better option?

In defense of Elixir H, you forgot to account for tossing it, which adds another defensive boon plus a condi removal if traited.  Additionally, in order to get all those wonderful effects from Med Kit, you'd have to spend around 10 seconds (rough estimate) with medkit equipped, which means the damage and control dealt would be significantly smaller than a person who can just chug an elixir, throw another on the ground and go.

Of course, for a build like this that is traited for kits will definitely benefit more from Med Kit, but I feel like you can fit in Elixir H with a few minor adjustments easily as well depending on preference.

#50 draxynnic

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:08 AM

While we're on the topic of other things you can do with the stat loadout, there's a static discharge-based build on the official forums that uses a very similar stat loadout - you could probably swap out Explosive Powder for a suitable trait in Alchemy without having too much of a hit in your power. Heck, you could even combine them - Throw Wrench is a targeted short-recharge toolbelt skill which is pretty much exactly what you want to use with Static Discharge, and if you're using the rifle turret as well, if you ever decide to deploy it instead of using the toolbelt skill you'll have the wrench there to repair that turret.
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#51 Taelvin

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 03:40 PM

Hello all,

I've been reading up on this build and a few others. I was wondering if anyone can give me direction on how to start using trait and skill points for levels 11-40 (and on). I just started as an engineer and am curious as to what strategy to use while you are trying to get to lvl 80. I do PvE in a small group of friends most the time. I put my question in here because I like the idea of a Flamethrower/elixir gun engineer.

#52 Phineas Poe

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Posted 03 December 2012 - 07:18 PM

View PostTaelvin, on 03 December 2012 - 03:40 PM, said:

Hello all,

I've been reading up on this build and a few others. I was wondering if anyone can give me direction on how to start using trait and skill points for levels 11-40 (and on). I just started as an engineer and am curious as to what strategy to use while you are trying to get to lvl 80. I do PvE in a small group of friends most the time. I put my question in here because I like the idea of a Flamethrower/elixir gun engineer.

This will sound strange considering the "final" build doesn't have any points in the tree, but 10 points in Explosives is a must while leveling. Incendiary Powder provides a relatively significant boost to DPS that you'll need before you can unlock Juggernaut at later levels.

Beyond that, fill up Firearms first. I used the Rifle a lot while leveling, and Firearms benefits it best while still traiting toward your Flamethrower.

I'd also put priority on traiting Tools over Alchemy, but that's only because the Bandage Self cooldown is way more useful than a pure 15% damage boost to the Flamethrower. I'm actually in the process of considering dropping Alchemy entirely, and instead opting for 10 in Explosives (for Incendiary Powder) and 10 in Inventions (Energized Armor benefiting from Toughness).

#53 Phineas Poe

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 08:27 AM

So about the new patch...

What sigil is everyone using with their FT/EG build? A Superior Sigil of Blood came with my rifle when I bought it. But since the FT/EG build already is pretty strong defensively, I might be more inclined to swap it out for another, particularly ones that boost damage either at a flat rate or per kill. I'll admit having my main as an Engineer I never much paid attention to sigils, and my highest leveled alt is a 45 Guardian ... so this whole thing is pretty new to me.

I was looking at the Superior Sigil of Fire and was wondering why it was so expensive. From its description it may fit the "clustered" grouping that the Flamethrower best targets, but I was curious if anyone has done any number crunching to see if there's more viable and less gimmicky options.

Edited by Phineas_Poe, 17 December 2012 - 08:28 AM.


#54 BZeeB

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 01:57 PM

My biggest gripe with flamethrower is how inconsistent flame blast is (1:3 chances to hit typically for me).

Even if I turn off autoaim, untarget my enemy, aim above them, and time my jump with flame blasts shot I still see obscures.  This drives me nuts! Maybe this is because I am an asura but it has completely turned me off trying to use it until its fixed

#55 FoxBat

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:27 PM

Sigil of Battle is all around strong engineer sigil, but if you are running Juggernaut you probably want some might duration runes anyway, which just makes it even better. Did I mention the buffed HGH if you spec alchemy?

#56 Phineas Poe

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:46 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 17 December 2012 - 05:27 PM, said:

Sigil of Battle is all around strong engineer sigil, but if you are running Juggernaut you probably want some might duration runes anyway, which just makes it even better. Did I mention the buffed HGH if you spec alchemy?

Duration runes are an option, but a 10% increase in buff-time really amounts to how much added power? Compared to a raw 5% critical chance boost? Or 250 Power? I'm not so sure, but this is all conjecture. I'll make a point to try out different sigils and post my results.

As for HGH:

On the first page of this thread I broke down the different splits between Alchemy and Tools and what one would expect. Obviously the 20/20 split was the most defensive choice (and my personal favorite).

But between HGH and Tool's natural boost to critical damage, the difference in damage between running a 25/15 split and a 30/10 split is almost negligible---in most situations they'll cancel each other out.

I'd say 30 Alchemy would be better if you use a lot of elixirs. If you ran Flamethrower with Elixir B and Elixir U, that would be a good option.

But if you're running a build similar to mine, where you have it paired with the Elixir Gun and just one Elixir, I'd give the edge to having a 25/15 split.

Even after the buff, I'm not convinced the FT/EG best utilizes HGH. Even with 30 points in Alchemy I would probably get something else over it---like Backpack Regenerator. Personal opinion. I've always loved the 30/20/20 split because I think it's the most diversifiable build we have. It covers all the bases except Grenadier.

Edited by Phineas_Poe, 17 December 2012 - 05:47 PM.


#57 FoxBat

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 05:56 PM

View PostPhineas_Poe, on 17 December 2012 - 05:46 PM, said:

Duration runes are an option, but a 10% increase in buff-time really amounts to how much added power? Compared to a raw 5% critical chance boost? Or 250 Power? I'm not so sure, but this is all conjecture. I'll make a point to try out different sigils and post my results.

There are two 20% might rune sets at least, so more like 40% of however many might stacks, which also impacts those incidental bleeds and burns that come with flamethrower #1. (Realize that has little to do with your playstyle, but this is a general FT thread...)

Stacking sigil effects remain even when you switch weapons. So if you want bloodlust or whatever, stack up 25 kills, then you can switch it for something else.

Fair enough that HGH doesn't look so good if you want to keep the EG. But frankly EG is less enticing for soloing with what has happened to super elixer. But no need to rehash EG vs. not arguments..

#58 Phineas Poe

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 06:30 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 17 December 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

Realize that has little to do with your playstyle, but this is a general FT thread...

Right. As I have outlined where 30 Alchemy would better benefit those that don't use my playstyle. I'm not curbing anyone enthusiasm for alternatives here.

As for "what happened" to Super Elixir, they fixed a bug. I think we all knew that it was going to be fixed eventually, especially when two Super Elixir procs through Kit Refinement allowed me to basically heal to full with the Tool Kit/Shield nullifying most of my damage.

That still leaves its Kit Refinement condition removal effects alone, which is why I primarily used it.

Edited by Phineas_Poe, 17 December 2012 - 06:31 PM.


#59 Isti

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 07:35 PM

Speaking of boon duration, has anybody had a chance to play around with the Giver's set and Runes of Altruism?  Just curious if it makes a noticeable difference in support-spec play.

#60 FoxBat

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 07:41 PM

View PostIsti, on 17 December 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

Speaking of boon duration, has anybody had a chance to play around with the Giver's set and Runes of Altruism?  Just curious if it makes a noticeable difference in support-spec play.

The giver items are currently broken (no effect from boon/condition duration), dunno about altruism.

Edited by FoxBat, 17 December 2012 - 07:41 PM.






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