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A Comprehensive Look at the Flamethrower (And Elixir Gun)

flamethrower elixir gun eg ft might power build support control

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#61 doooknoookem

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Posted 17 December 2012 - 08:18 PM

Altruism Runes are something that I've been looking at to replace my Dwayna runes. I really like that you get both Might x3 and Fury with a simple switch to the medkit along with the nice +15% boon duration which is overall a nice stat for us. Unfortunately, I don't know the durations of the 3 stacks of Might and Fury. If they were sufficiently long enough, I think they might be worth it. We could also use Sigil of Battle (for a slightly cheaper alternative) while we are at it since we are switching kits pretty often.

Phineas, are you still using FT/EG? I've been using the build for quite some time b/c Grenade #1 spam is bad for my keyboard and wrists, but I just feel like a weaker Staff Ele. I rarely find use for any of the Elixir Gun skills aside from 4 and 5. The FT dmg skills are pretty weak, aside from 2, but it's pretty buggy.

#62 Phineas Poe

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 04:25 PM

View Postdoooknoookem, on 17 December 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

Phineas, are you still using FT/EG? I've been using the build for quite some time b/c Grenade #1 spam is bad for my keyboard and wrists, but I just feel like a weaker Staff Ele. I rarely find use for any of the Elixir Gun skills aside from 4 and 5. The FT dmg skills are pretty weak, aside from 2, but it's pretty buggy.

Kind of. I honestly haven't played as much GW2 as I've wanted to lately, and most of that time has been spent leveling my Guardian alt since I've grown bored of my Engineer. (Not that I think it sucks! Just nice to throw a change-up.) I'm still running my 30/20/20 split I posted originally, and I've had the same measurable success I've always had with it. That being said, I'm not at Fractal 20 either, and I'm not sure if its effectiveness and the endest game of end game.

I think what separates me from a lot of users though is that I don't stand there and spam FT's #1 skill. I abuse the hell out of our lack of cooldown swapping kits, and I actively integrate the rifle's burst rotation into my style of play, many times slotting Static Discharge for an improved burst. I use Juggernaut more for its 200 Toughness than I do the stacks of Might because of that. And I use Elixir Gun not for its Super Elixir heal but its ridiculous condition removal through Kit Refinement. I honestly think between 6/6 Dwayna and Bandage Self we have enough to keep us alive.

FT#1 is perhaps the least used skill on the bar, as after I burn 2-5 I usually swap back to my rifle or the Tool Kit or Elixir Gun. Whatever set-up I have at the time.

Does this work at Fractal 20? I don't know. I doubt it. Probably not. But it works for when and how I play my Engineer. Like you, relegating myself to the Grenade Kit is a complete snore. Standing in the back at 1,200 range, that's actually when I feel like an Elementalist. And seeing that I have an Elementalist, I'd rather playing the Engineer it was, in my opinion, designed to be played---as a middle field auxiliary role that buffs with thrown elixirs and Light fields and provides great control with decent survivability and the spike damage when I need it.

I've never felt like a hindrance to any of my groups, whatever I'm doing, and I've never heard any vocal complaints about it either.

Edited by Phineas_Poe, 19 December 2012 - 04:27 PM.


#63 Isti

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Posted 19 December 2012 - 07:23 PM

View Postdoooknoookem, on 17 December 2012 - 08:18 PM, said:

Altruism Runes are something that I've been looking at to replace my Dwayna runes. I really like that you get both Might x3 and Fury with a simple switch to the medkit along with the nice +15% boon duration which is overall a nice stat for us. Unfortunately, I don't know the durations of the 3 stacks of Might and Fury. If they were sufficiently long enough, I think they might be worth it. We could also use Sigil of Battle (for a slightly cheaper alternative) while we are at it since we are switching kits pretty often. (snip)

I tried out a Sigil of Battle the other day with a Static Discharge rifle/grenadier build, and it was kind of bananas, honestly.  Take Explosives X as the 20 pt trait (get three stacks of might on heal skill use), and I have Runes of the Fighter in my armor (6-set bonus is get 1 stack of might on heal skill use).  That's four stacks of might every 10ish seconds on heal skill use, plus three more when you toggle back to rifle while in combat.  If you aren't using your rifle as your primary attack weapon, the "stance dancing" for might stacks becomes a little more ridiculous, since it's not just in and out of med kit but rather med kit, then rifle, then grenades.  The delay while you're juggling equipment might be too much of an offset to come out ahead on the dps.  Primarily using the rifle, though, it was easy to maintain at least 10 stacks by myself while in combat (and as long as you're putting on the med kit, drop yourself a stim brew every other time for fury and swiftness).  Another good runeset, more offensive in nature, would be 6x Superior Runes of Strength.

#64 Imga Ironcog

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Posted 30 December 2012 - 07:28 PM

Thank goodness someone pointed this thread out to me, it's been very useful. I'm going for the rifle+Elixir Gun build, minus Flamethrower. Still up in the air about runes, but I feel that going for more Power and Toughness would be useful, Vitality wouldn't hurt either.

#65 FoxBat

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Posted 01 January 2013 - 01:30 AM

I've played around with 25 might stacks and HGH alchemy, but runes of altruism are pushing me back to this type of build. Perma-fury is just too nice, and the ability to spread it is even nicer.

Might have been mentioned but life steal food is essential if you want your flamethrower #1 to be useful, the damage and tankability boost (with precision) is huge. You still benefit from juggling kits, but holding boss aggro with your health bouncing around with #1 has alot going for it over rifle autoattack.

Edited by FoxBat, 01 January 2013 - 01:31 AM.


#66 Phineas Poe

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 03:46 PM

Arise! Arise!

It's been a while since I updated this thread, but it's also been a while since I've played my Engineer. Been mostly working on my Guardian, which I finally hit level 80. But no class is as fun to play (in my book) as the Engineer, and I was inevitably drawn back to it--least of all thanks to this beautiful buff we have received at our feet after so many nerfs and "fixes" to our class.

Two major changes in the new patch that are relevant to this build:
  • Weapons now continue to grant bonus stats while bundles are equipped.
  • Bundles from player skills (engineer kits, elementalist conjured weapons, warrior banners) now have base damage that is consistent with the highest rarity weapons available at the level of the player.

Before getting into the nitty-gritty, two things need to be identified.
  • We have received a flat increase in damage output for our Flamethrower and other kits.
  • The stats of our weapon (not just sigils) act as a bonus.

So what does this mean for us?

To put it bluntly, the Flamethrower is now a good damage-dealing kit. As I identified on the first page of this thread, with my 30/20/20 split I averaged around 1500-1600 damage per Flame Jet blast. With the same P/V/T gear, I now consistently dish out 1900-2000+ damage per blast, with crits reaching 250 damage per tick. I imagine with the 25/15 split, which already got to 2K damage pre-patch, would be a really considerable damage-dealing option.

I agree with the assessment of doook and FoxBat that the future of this build will likely yield even better results when switching from 6/6 Dwayna to 6/6 Altruism runes. I just finished buying Cultural armor for my Guard so I’m kinda poor at the moment. When I do manage to get that done, I’ll update the thread with the damage change--unless someone else has the opportunity first.

Cheers.

#67 azamyr

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:06 PM

Having a Guardian myself with a Crithammer build, I'm a big fan of Retributive Armor. So, I keep looking at 0/30/10/20/10 with Energized Armor as an option with a heavy Toughness gear load out. Would it be worth it or is there plenty of Crit chance already inherent with this build?

Being a primarily WvW/PvP player, I also look at Cloaking Device as something extremely useful. So, 0/30/20/20/0 also looks interesting.

Any thoughts?


EDIT: The other thing I'm torn about is the absolute fantastic control aspects of the rifle vs the fact that Sigils now work with kits, using pistol/shield or pistol/pistol nets 2 sigil effects.

Edited by azamyr, 31 January 2013 - 05:27 PM.


#68 FoxBat

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 05:45 PM

View PostPhineas_Poe, on 31 January 2013 - 03:46 PM, said:

To put it bluntly, the Flamethrower is now a good damage-dealing kit. As I identified on the first page of this thread, with my 30/20/20 split I averaged around 1500-1600 damage per Flame Jet blast. With the same P/V/T gear, I now consistently dish out 1900-2000+ damage per blast, with crits reaching 250 damage per tick. I imagine with the 25/15 split, which already got to 2K damage pre-patch, would be a really considerable damage-dealing option.

Against what. Things have different armor levels...

I'm not convinced weapon damage on kits has changed at all for level 80. Weapon stats help, but not 33% help.

#69 Atamaz

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 08:21 PM

I sometimes use: http://gw2skills.net...1UdZ8S4lrrRFzMA
(using cleasing formula 409 in the place of deadly mixture when needed) with Power/precision/condition damage armor and celestial jewel(ancient karka shell, solaria, lunaria, triforge).
It do nice damage now between direct and condition damage, i prefer boon duration over might duration because of the elixirs. But still I feel a little behind, I mean guardian and ele can choose the boon given with shout/attunement while we must be lucky with rng throwing elixir both for boons and for utility like reflect projectile(it's a 66% chance on throw elixir u, but the ethereal wall is really useless) and still heal a lot less than both of them.
About rune of altruism I used it a lots with explosive X Enhance performance and sigil of Battle switching from FT to Medi Kit every 10 second for massive might buff, but I switched to boon duration 2+2+2 because is a more reliable source of might(but you lose fury aoe) and it's more relaxing allowing me to concentrate more on what happen around me.
With this build I can stay on FT always allowing judgernaut to stack might and drink/throw elixir for even more might+random boon.

#70 Phineas Poe

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 09:31 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 31 January 2013 - 05:45 PM, said:

Against what. Things have different armor levels...

I'm not convinced weapon damage on kits has changed at all for level 80. Weapon stats help, but not 33% help.

33%? I was being very rough in my estimation, but a ~1600 damage output to a ~2000 damage output is 20%, not 33%, which I would say is relatively accurate considering the straight buff to Flamethrower along with the addition of weapon stats. I apologize for being vague, but I used the same method that I used back on the first page when testing the difference in damage between 30/10, 20/20, and 25/15 talent splits between Alchemy and Tools---pulling Plaguebearers, and only Plaguebearers, outside of Caer Shadowfain. It's just an easy testing spot, with plenty of them, and no competition.

If you'd rather I test my numbers elsewhere, just ask.



My Rifle has a damage range of 986-1205. With 1753 Power, that means unkitted I have 2958 Attack.

My Flamethrower, unbuffed (no Might) has 2722 Attack. When I unequip my Rifle, its unbuffed Attack drops to 2543 ... which is a 179 point difference. The same change in Attack as the amount of Power on my Rifle.

Weapon stats definitely matter now and figure into the damage of your Flamethrower. The additional 9% Critical Damage is more than enough to figure into why there's such a significant damage change. If you want something more substantial I can provide it, but I think it's relatively obvious.

Our weapon stats now matter, at level 1 or 80.

Edited by Phineas_Poe, 31 January 2013 - 09:33 PM.


#71 FoxBat

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Posted 31 January 2013 - 11:22 PM

View PostPhineas_Poe, on 31 January 2013 - 09:31 PM, said:

Our weapon stats now matter, at level 1 or 80.

Oh yes, and I'm not disputing this at all. The question is about weapon damage, which I think may be unchanged for level 80. If you are relying on the attack power for information (possibly questionable), then it indicates the same 969 max weapon damage for kits as always. (Supposedly our real average is 920). On the other hand if you're in a P/V/T setup then 180 power alone shouldn't be able to improve your damage by 25%.

#72 Phineas Poe

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Posted 01 February 2013 - 07:50 PM

View PostFoxBat, on 31 January 2013 - 11:22 PM, said:

On the other hand if you're in a P/V/T setup then 180 power alone shouldn't be able to improve your damage by 25%.

Quite right. It shouldn't. But Power isn't the only stat on my Rifle. And again, I said the change was 20% not 25% or 33%. Either way, I didn't intend that statement to be taken so matter-of-factly. The point is that the build is way more powerful than it was.

But to put closure on this...

I also have additional Precision and a flat 9% increase in critical damage. With all of that all together, it isn't really that much of a stretch to believe that significantly changes my damage output. The reason I spent so much time perfecting the FT/EG build is because this is the build that made me stick with the Engineer while everyone else was obsessing over the Grenade Kit. I've spent months farming Cursed Shore and dungeons with this build. I'm pretty used to seeing numbers in the 1500-1600 range with my gear, sometimes 1800.

The damage was always mediocre. This build was popular for its survivability. I made that point from day one.

Yet now I am seeing numbers over 2000 a lot. Consistently. The change is there. And it is a lot. I don't really know what else to tell you.

Edited by Phineas_Poe, 01 February 2013 - 09:27 PM.


#73 FoxBat

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Posted 02 February 2013 - 12:06 AM

View PostPhineas_Poe, on 01 February 2013 - 07:50 PM, said:

Yet now I am seeing numbers over 2000 a lot. Consistently. The change is there. And it is a lot. I don't really know what else to tell you.

Hey I'm no grenade freak either and have been using the FT quite a bit in fractals. I also use a berserker rifle with otherwise knights gear and I'm not seeing a big change is all I am saying. Although we might just disagree on what is "big" change. If all your gear was P/V/T then you'd see about a 10% increase from weapon stats (the crit % won't do much unless you have some precision elsewhere.) In full knight gear it would be closer to 15%. That would take 1800 to 2000 (but not much farther.) Orr might have had it's armor values played with too if that is where you do most of your farming, since they did a full makeover of the area to make it more enticing.

In fractals most bosses are static enough to consistently hit with the fireball so the damage doesn't have to be all that mediocre either. With around 50% crit you can get around 900 lifesteal per flame jet from omnom pie as well. So there are reasons before the update that I used FT, and it's those same reasons that keep me using it, not a 10-15% damage boost. But others milage may vary.

Edited by FoxBat, 02 February 2013 - 12:11 AM.


#74 Fuzzy Crack

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 05:31 PM

How does this build look?

http://www.guildhead...J70V7owY70m8ofy

Should be go for Soldier's stats, or should I try to add precision in there somewhere?

#75 Phineas Poe

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 06:17 PM

30/25/15 is pretty standard and works just fine.

Because of the 300 points in Precision going into Firearms, you'll be perfectly fine with Soldiers armor so long as you're pairing it with Emerald or Ruby jewelry.

With an exotic Berserkers Rifle, you'll have 39% crit chance. With dual pistols you'll have 42%.

Sorry, that's a lie. I forgot that I'm using Rampager's pistols.

Edited by Phineas_Poe, 18 February 2013 - 07:15 PM.


#76 Intoxicated

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 07:31 PM

Just an FYI I run almost full Soldiers gear (trinkets too with ruby jewels) with altuism runes since they came out and there is a discrepancy with the cooldown. It's more like 15 seconds which means with ~55% boon duration (20 in alchemy + 15 from runes + 20 omnomberry) and consistence kit switching you can get 50% fury uptime on the group. I've tried it out with grenades 30/20/0/0/20 (my personal favorite) and 0/30/0/20/20. I also run E-gun and elixer R (I mostly do fractal or dungeon runs). And I can say without a doubt that with juggernaut you become a tank i think i had 22k Health and 2800+ armor. But damage was lacking, I found it was effective to stack up vulnerability on a boss then pop the altruism proc to boost my teams DPS significantly, or when a mesmer threw down quickness

#77 Phineas Poe

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 07:51 PM

Original post has been updated with all relevant information. Thank you to everyone who has contributed thus far in making the FT/EG build what it is.

#78 Fuzzy Crack

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 08:50 PM

How important would a stunbreaker be? Basically, would Elixir B or R be more useful all around? Or is it a situational thing?

#79 Phineas Poe

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Posted 18 February 2013 - 09:42 PM

View PostFuzzy Crack, on 18 February 2013 - 08:50 PM, said:

How important would a stunbreaker be? Basically, would Elixir B or R be more useful all around? Or is it a situational thing?

By my experience? In open world PvE? Not very.

I use Elixir R already in dungeons so I have it then if I need it.

I use stun breakers all the time in PvP though, and I actually think gadgets are better used for that. Utility Goggles has a 40-second CD to Elixir R's 45 ... and Rocket Boots are even faster. You can get away with running Speedy Gadgets in WvW instead of Kit Refinement, making Utility Goggles have a 32 second CD and Rocket Boots down to 24.

Plus, Goggles' toolbelt skill applies a flat 10% Vulnerability stack.

Edited by Phineas_Poe, 18 February 2013 - 09:44 PM.


#80 Fuzzy Crack

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 10:34 PM

So how much does the patch affect this?  Is Kit Refinement still a good trait?

#81 Solo Too

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 10:42 PM

The Kit refinement trait is still viable ( I know, I know).  You just can't spam it as much since they added that 10 second cool down.  All this does is make you more choosey of when to switch kits.  The patch made the effect stronger as well.  Sort of like having a gourmet burger instead of a McDonald's burger.  The quality has been upped while the quantity has been reduced.  The heal on super elixir is insane now.

I am referring to FT/EG build as that is what I am running at the moment.  As for nades and bombs, I will have to play with them later tonite.

#82 coglin

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Posted 27 February 2013 - 11:23 PM

If you rune a pure kit build or use FT+EG+kit refinement to remove conditions, we lost 1/3 of our condition removal. No more swap to EG for super elixir + actual super elixir + swap to FT for condition removal.

#83 Phineas Poe

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 06:30 AM

View PostFuzzy Crack, on 27 February 2013 - 10:34 PM, said:

So how much does the patch affect this?  Is Kit Refinement still a good trait?

Absolutely.

You can still 100% upkeep Super Elixir for the Light field + perma Regeneration. Its Regeneration and Impact Heal actually got buffed in this patch by a flat rate and now scales higher with Cleric's. This is huge in dungeons/fractals and I'm not comfortable running without it unless it's an AC Milk Run.

The only thing that is lost in this nerf is Flame Burst's condition removal, which I never much paid attention to anyway. Super Elixir and Drop Antidote chewed up enough conditions for me to where its loss is neglible. If I'm really getting hit with that many conditions I'll just take Elixir C and swap out Invigorating Speed for Fast-Acting Elixirs ... or, more likely, I'll just be more mindful of red circles on the ground.

Edited by Phineas_Poe, 28 February 2013 - 06:31 AM.


#84 Dakan

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 07:04 AM

I am totally new to Engineer but since the last patch again failed to address the multiple bugs of rangers, i decided to roll one. So far I'm level 10 and really liking my flamethrower. However I don't get why you would use soldier stats. Wouldn't Berserker be much more damaging or Rampager for that added condition damage? As I said I am really new to this profession and not really familiar with all of the skills and traits, so if I have missed something I apologize beforehand.

Also could you do a quick breakdown on what the core traits of the build are which should be unlocked first (for levelling)? For example the "Clone on Dodge" trait of my mesmer was a real game changer once i got it. Is there something similar to the engineer? Thanks in advance for educating me and thanks for creating this thread. :D

#85 Cevilo

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 07:24 AM

View PostDakan, on 28 February 2013 - 07:04 AM, said:

I am totally new to Engineer but since the last patch again failed to address the multiple bugs of rangers, i decided to roll one. So far I'm level 10 and really liking my flamethrower. However I don't get why you would use soldier stats. Wouldn't Berserker be much more damaging or Rampager for that added condition damage? As I said I am really new to this profession and not really familiar with all of the skills and traits, so if I have missed something I apologize beforehand.

Also could you do a quick breakdown on what the core traits of the build are which should be unlocked first (for levelling)? For example the "Clone on Dodge" trait of my mesmer was a real game changer once i got it. Is there something similar to the engineer? Thanks in advance for educating me and thanks for creating this thread. :D

they use soldier stats because using flame thrower requires you to be more mid/close range so you need to be able to take more damage. also you NEED NEED NEED to have 30 points into Fire Arms for the Juggernaut ability. from that point it's your choice. you can go power for mode damage all around, increases on hit and condi duration, there are also viable options on the other trees. I prefer to have at least 10 in to tools so I can get a speed buff 5 sec every time I equip a kit. switching in and out of your flame thrower is a great way to maintain a perm speed buff and cover map.at level 45 I ran my self to wps to fight shat, Teq and Claw this way.

#86 Dakan

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 08:36 AM

Thanks for the answer I get the part about the traits but I still don't really get the part about gear. On my thief I can run full berserker gear despite being in close range all the time. From what I've seen engineers should have no problem of obtaining perma vigor so survivability shouldn't be that much of a problem (I am used to dodging a lot.). I'm a bit conflicted here because after playing thief, mesmer and (condition) ranger I am guessing that with a soldier setup there wouldn't be enough damage and I also don't want to change my gear as the OP suggested and gradually switch things out because I don't really have the time to farm that money.

Edit:

Okay I just tried it in the mists and am amazed. I tried various combinations of amulets and it seems to me that a soldier amulet slotted with a rampager jewel works best (at just 24% crit. chance). Most damage and at the same time most survivability. Second best is full knights because of 49% crit. chance but less power and 3k more health albeit 500 less armor. What stunned me was that the damage gain from using full berserker gear is quite negligible when compared to soldier/rampager.

I like this profession more and more. And please excuse my seemingly stupid questions.

Edited by Dakan, 28 February 2013 - 09:01 AM.


#87 Cevilo

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 08:52 AM

because to max the damage on your flame thrower you can't dodge mid fire hose. personally, I let them run up to me, drop the fire wall at their feet for added damage while I'm burning them down, and pop the 2 skill when it's ready, and the 5 skill for a quick blind.

#88 Alaxias

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Posted 28 February 2013 - 11:46 PM

I love this build!  Can you elaborate on the situations that makes you switch between the flamethrower and the elixir gun?  For exemple with a boss on me I'll usually switch to elixir gun to keep weakness on him.  That seems to work (glancing!) but would the toughness from juggernaut help more?  Also I noticed that when I equip the flamethrower my toughness goes from 662 to 822, why isn't it 200?

#89 coglin

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 02:39 AM

View PostAlaxias, on 28 February 2013 - 11:46 PM, said:

Also I noticed that when I equip the flamethrower my toughness goes from 662 to 822, why isn't it 200?
What level are you? it is 200 at 80, and scales down with levels below 80.

#90 Phineas Poe

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Posted 01 March 2013 - 07:44 PM

View PostDakan, on 28 February 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Thanks for the answer I get the part about the traits but I still don't really get the part about gear. On my thief I can run full berserker gear despite being in close range all the time. From what I've seen engineers should have no problem of obtaining perma vigor so survivability shouldn't be that much of a problem (I am used to dodging a lot.). I'm a bit conflicted here because after playing thief, mesmer and (condition) ranger I am guessing that with a soldier setup there wouldn't be enough damage and I also don't want to change my gear as the OP suggested and gradually switch things out because I don't really have the time to farm that money.

No, you're quite right. The Engineer is quite a durable little beast between Med Kit's 6-8K healing potential and 100% upkeep with Super Elixir. I've used Berserker's safely when farming AC for my Guardian's gear, but I think it's best to have that defensive set on hand before you gear offensively. Personal opinion. With the last patch and the better synergy with Burning damage I'm starting to wonder if Rampager's may be a better alternative to Berserker's, though ... which brings me to your second point.

View PostDakan, on 28 February 2013 - 08:36 AM, said:

Okay I just tried it in the mists and am amazed. I tried various combinations of amulets and it seems to me that a soldier amulet slotted with a rampager jewel works best (at just 24% crit. chance). Most damage and at the same time most survivability. Second best is full knights because of 49% crit. chance but less power and 3k more health albeit 500 less armor. What stunned me was that the damage gain from using full berserker gear is quite negligible when compared to soldier/rampager.

I'm laughing, because this is what I tried telling people on the main forum not even a couple hours ago before the cynicism drove me insane. I'm glad people are warming to the fact that Zerker/Ruby isn't the be-all-end-all. Excellent work. I'll have to try this out.

Edited by Phineas_Poe, 01 March 2013 - 07:48 PM.






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