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To all those who have been complaining about loot...

loot drops pve dungeons monsters items gold epic developers official

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#1 Al Shamari

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 03:04 AM

So, to all of you that have been complaining about the lack of good loot (both in dungeons and in the open world) your fix is coming, not sure when! But, it is being worked on, the developers have officially responded...

9 hours ago:

Quote

It’s not an exploit to skip Kholer. He’s a bonus boss that unlocks a central waypoint, drops loot, and also gives a chest.

People skip him because:
A) He’s hard if you don’t know what you are doing, and don’t communicate enough.
2) Our changes to our token rewards moved the tokens out of his unlocked chest, so people don’t feel they have to fight him to maximize gains
III) Our dropped loot is abysmal, so you’re not finding anything of value.


Solutions:
A) He’s supposed to be hard, it’s explorable mode. We should aspire all our bosse across all difficulties to be of similar difficulty.
2 and III) We are currently re-working and changing our loot for dungeons. I had previously hoped that it would be in for the next patch, but it requires a lot of tuning and testing, so it might take another patch.


8 hours ago:

Quote

@Sebber, I’ve been very vocal about the changes to dungeon loot here in the dungeon thread and my hopes it would be in by this next patch. While I still hold out hope, I don’t think it will make it in since it needs more tuning.


1 hour ago:

Quote

To SteveMJH,

Same thing that Rob said about dungeon loot is also true in open world. I recently started looking at this and its literally such a bad chance of getting good loot from those big world bosses. Champions as well, the numbers are just too low. The Halloween patch is just too close to put this in and test it, but we are also working on improving this.

Jon


All of this coming from: https://forum-en.gui...-AC-explorable/

#2 ilr

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 04:51 AM

Kholer?  Hard??   heheh wut   (I beat him while carrying a team of 40's)


...Glad it was finally admitted that there's no reason to fight openworld Champions though.

Edited by ilr, 20 October 2012 - 04:55 AM.


#3 ensoriki

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 04:56 AM

Champions are terrible.
Killed that Goliath in Jormag's claw and got some white Chainmail chest piece.
Simply ridiculous.

#4 AEnesidem

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 09:36 AM

ilr, it's not that he is unbeatable. But 90% of the teams you go in with will wipe 4-5 times before beating him. Additionally his whirlwind almost instantly downs you. A little bit of controller lagg is enough to die and that happens quite often. That makes him extremely irritating and useless to battle since the loot is terrible.

#5 BeyondThyGrave

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 10:58 AM

Wait... Isn't this the guy who you can make troll fight...? I've only done AC a few times but when the kholer fight comes up, you can just make the troll fight him down to like a quarter health.
I do have to say though, there are some things that just never drop worthwhile loot, even with mf...

#6 BrettM

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 12:33 PM

It has been puzzling me why veterans and champions don't have better loot than regular foes, or at least more of it. For example, if a regular warg can drop a claw, why shouldn't a veteran warg be able to drop two or three and a champion warg drop five or ten? Even if they're going to drop broken claws or other trash, dropping more of it would help ease the pain of getting trash. GW1 bosses often dropped double lesser loot in addition to the chance for special loot (such as greens) or more valuable loot.

#7 Gilles VI

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 12:45 PM

View PostAEnesidem, on 20 October 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

ilr, it's not that he is unbeatable. But 90% of the teams you go in with will wipe 4-5 times before beating him. Additionally his whirlwind almost instantly downs you. A little bit of controller lagg is enough to die and that happens quite often. That makes him extremely irritating and useless to battle since the loot is terrible.

1) dodge
2) reflect projectiles
3) block projectiles
4) stability
5) stun breaker

solved :)

View PostBeyondThyGrave, on 20 October 2012 - 10:58 AM, said:

Wait... Isn't this the guy who you can make troll fight...? I've only done AC a few times but when the kholer fight comes up, you can just make the troll fight him down to like a quarter health.
I do have to say though, there are some things that just never drop worthwhile loot, even with mf...

The troll is random, so it can't be used reliably.
I got the troll 3 times in a row once, and now it's been like 10 runs since I last had him.

#8 Alex Dimitri

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 01:51 PM

Finally good news, makin` dungeon and open world bosses drop better loot was a must. I kind of felt sad and bitter every time i got some blue worthless crap from a hard boss !
If they implement this right, woohoo i see future of boss hunting as a new big sport in Tyria !!!

#9 AEnesidem

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 03:53 PM

View PostGilles VI, on 20 October 2012 - 12:45 PM, said:

1) dodge
2) reflect projectiles
3) block projectiles
4) stability
5) stun breaker

solved :)



The troll is random, so it can't be used reliably.
I got the troll 3 times in a row once, and now it's been like 10 runs since I last had him.
thanks for the tips, but i know how to beat him i've been grinding AC for 2 weeks now haha. It's just that even if you know how to skip or beat him. 90% of the groups you'll be in don't and will whipe at least a few times. But i don't care that he's difficult, i agree that in dungeons bosses bosses may require a certain knowhow and difficulty level.
i was just pointing out that for most people he IS difficult and that makes it normal people want to skip him if there is no good loot.

#10 NuclearDonut

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 04:02 PM

Lol Kholer is not tough. If you pull him away from his goons, he turns into a one-trick-pony. Dodging his (very obvious) big attack leaves him useless and vulnerable.

#11 Gilles VI

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 04:22 PM

View PostAEnesidem, on 20 October 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

thanks for the tips, but i know how to beat him i've been grinding AC for 2 weeks now haha. It's just that even if you know how to skip or beat him. 90% of the groups you'll be in don't and will whipe at least a few times. But i don't care that he's difficult, i agree that in dungeons bosses bosses may require a certain knowhow and difficulty level.
i was just pointing out that for most people he IS difficult and that makes it normal people want to skip him if there is no good loot.


I wouldn't know, it's been over 3 weeks since I last pugged a dungeon. :)

#12 KodiakX

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 04:22 PM

View PostBrettM, on 20 October 2012 - 12:33 PM, said:

It has been puzzling me why veterans and champions don't have better loot than regular foes, or at least more of it. For example, if a regular warg can drop a claw, why shouldn't a veteran warg be able to drop two or three and a champion warg drop five or ten? Even if they're going to drop broken claws or other trash, dropping more of it would help ease the pain of getting trash. GW1 bosses often dropped double lesser loot in addition to the chance for special loot (such as greens) or more valuable loot.

I think it really has to deal with effort vs reward.  On the one hand it's easy to see the reason behind your argument but you also have to consider scenarios where there's going to be a Champion and you got 20 people on them.  20x5 is 100 claws you added to the game economy.

#13 Al Shamari

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 04:29 PM

View PostKodiakX, on 20 October 2012 - 04:22 PM, said:

I think it really has to deal with effort vs reward.  On the one hand it's easy to see the reason behind your argument but you also have to consider scenarios where there's going to be a Champion and you got 20 people on them.  20x5 is 100 claws you added to the game economy.
Well, what needs to be done is further buff the difficulty of events when they're being done with multiple people. They have this system in place right now, but it needs to be taken even further. With a zerg a lot of these Champions are as easy as just staying at a range and spamming auto-attack. Yeah, you could try to use more skill... but why waste the effort? They need to buff these bosses extremely when there are multiple persons ganking them. Then they can increase the loot from said bosses. I'm not saying everyone should get rares or exotics, but there should be a damn better chance of it.

#14 KodiakX

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 05:00 PM

View PostAlShamari, on 20 October 2012 - 04:29 PM, said:

Well, what needs to be done is further buff the difficulty of events when they're being done with multiple people. They have this system in place right now, but it needs to be taken even further. With a zerg a lot of these Champions are as easy as just staying at a range and spamming auto-attack. Yeah, you could try to use more skill... but why waste the effort? They need to buff these bosses extremely when there are multiple persons ganking them. Then they can increase the loot from said bosses. I'm not saying everyone should get rares or exotics, but there should be a damn better chance of it.

I think from a coding perspective it'd probably be easier to count the total number of people who would be gaining loot from the creature (such as an aggro table) and then match that up against a preset table based on difficulty/number of players for rewards.  So for example if 1-5 players take down a Champion, that's the ideal amount and you'll get the most amount of rewards on the table.  If 6-10 players take down a Champion, that's easier than intended but it was probably no joke so slightly degraded rewards.  So on and so forth.  It'd only count the people who would get loot, so those casual contributers who do auto attack for the last 10% HP looking for a free hand out wouldn't count for or against.

This could easily be applied to dungeons (max 5 players) and the world and you don't have to worry about scaling Champion mobs for greater difficulty (which could lead to unintended results like some random Champion no one thought about is now impossible to kill).

#15 matsif

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 05:22 PM

thank god.  Was sick of doing a dungeon/large event chain with a chest and getting white or blue crap items.

#16 Al Shamari

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 05:34 PM

View PostKodiakX, on 20 October 2012 - 05:00 PM, said:

I think from a coding perspective it'd probably be easier to count the total number of people who would be gaining loot from the creature (such as an aggro table) and then match that up against a preset table based on difficulty/number of players for rewards.  So for example if 1-5 players take down a Champion, that's the ideal amount and you'll get the most amount of rewards on the table.  If 6-10 players take down a Champion, that's easier than intended but it was probably no joke so slightly degraded rewards.  So on and so forth.  It'd only count the people who would get loot, so those casual contributers who do auto attack for the last 10% HP looking for a free hand out wouldn't count for or against.

This could easily be applied to dungeons (max 5 players) and the world and you don't have to worry about scaling Champion mobs for greater difficulty (which could lead to unintended results like some random Champion no one thought about is now impossible to kill).
From a coding standpoint, you're entirely right... no argument with that. It would be the easier way to do things as far as the intent of getting better epic lootz. But, I personally (and they may even do something like this in future expansions) would just like to overall see flat out harder bosses that were legitimately made for zerging (since lets be real, that's what everyone does anyways and probably will continue to do even if what you described is how the implement the new looting structure). People will join in, in an attempt to get their fair share... nothing logically wrong with that, even if it isn't the most sound format of looting bosses.

So, even if your idea was put in place (which again, I do agree with, as it makes a lot of sense) I would at least like to see some bosses that we're meant for zerging and would require some skill within the zerg. No, I don't just mean cap the health tenfold, which is basically the current system. I mean design a few bosses that can wipe 20 people if they don't get their shit right.

#17 Lastchime

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 05:43 PM

View PostAEnesidem, on 20 October 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

thanks for the tips, but i know how to beat him i've been grinding AC for 2 weeks now haha. It's just that even if you know how to skip or beat him. 90% of the groups you'll be in don't and will whipe at least a few times. But i don't care that he's difficult, i agree that in dungeons bosses bosses may require a certain knowhow and difficulty level.
i was just pointing out that for most people he IS difficult and that makes it normal people want to skip him if there is no good loot.

I just wish all bosses were so obvious when they were preparing to tool you, he's great blocking practice. Now if we only had the cast bar from the first game.....

Edited by Lastchime, 20 October 2012 - 05:44 PM.


#18 Al Shamari

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Posted 20 October 2012 - 05:47 PM

View PostLastchime, on 20 October 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

I just wish all bosses were so obvious when they were preparing to tool you, he's great blocking practice. Now if we only had the cast bar from the first game.....
We also didn't have dodge in the first game, so we had to specifically time interrupts that often had cast times of their own. If given both a casting bar and dodge, bosses would seriously just be pie...

#19 Princess Fatora

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:41 AM

View PostAEnesidem, on 20 October 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

ilr, it's not that he is unbeatable. But 90% of the teams you go in with will wipe 4-5 times before beating him.

I have never wiped on him in a pug.
He isn't THAT hard, and 1-2 semi-competent people can kite him forever if the rest dies.

#20 ilr

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 05:59 PM

PuG quality seems to vary a lot between servers so I wouldn't use that as a metric for either side of the argument TBH.

The difference I was pointing out with Kohler is that 1 decent player on ANY class can carry just about any Pug which isn't the case with a lot of other Dungeon encounters that DO need tweaking (like Subject Alpha in CoE, the Seraph route in CM, Tzark's collectors in AC, etc...).  I don't know why I'm even having to say this in the first place since you'd THINK that Anet would have just copied ALL the things that worked really really well in GW1.  In this case:  having Normal Diff and Hardmode and only separating them by 1.5x drop quantities.  It gives us ppl who love challenge our "statistical edge ^ time" equation while giving Puggers the satisfaction of not ramming their heads into a wall 20x.

If there was ever a time to reintroduce that, it would be during the time that they change these drop tables and tweak those encounters  (b/c we know they're taking way way way too long to split PvE/PvP skills)

Edited by ilr, 21 October 2012 - 06:05 PM.






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