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Why is 4100 damage with a ranged aoe okay?


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#1 Mako482

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 12:34 PM

Was cluster bomb.

30 traited to toughness, knights draconic exotic, superior soldier runes......yet a ranged AOE skill hitting me for 4100 damage?

Since theives are so squishy I dont mind if they do awesome dps up close, they risk that.......but mindless ranged aoe spam? Not balanced in the least.

NO class should be doing ranged aoe damage like that esp vs someone who is a survival spec warrior.

Not qq over dieing, I would have died either way because I was zerged, the only reason I was checking my combat log was to see if it happened to show a skill used that was supposed to be activated by a trait that did not appear to work.

Edited by Mako482, 21 October 2012 - 12:34 PM.


#2 prome7heus

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 12:43 PM

Bet it was bleed from cluster bomb

#3 Kutsus

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 02:00 PM

Cluster bomb has a huge (slow) arc, an obvious graphic, and can't be used again until it finally lands. It's very easy to avoid if you are paying attention and is not spammable due to waiting several seconds between each shot for the last one to land. If you're getting hit by it without it being point blank or in a situation where you got zerged, blame your own situational awareness.

#4 Mekkakat

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 02:00 PM

Bleed is read as a different number in the death panel.

I also agree that Cluster Bomb can be a bit too much damage when specced up.

- I want that purple stuff.


#5 Adakias

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 02:03 PM

Grenade barrage from engineer wouldn't be too far off if I caught you in a stun and crit. Otherwise it's easy to avoid a lot of the damage. Same with cluster.

#6 Mekkakat

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 02:03 PM

View PostKutsus, on 21 October 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Cluster bomb has a huge (slow) arc, an obvious graphic, and can't be used again until it finally lands. It's very easy to avoid if you are paying attention and is not spammable due to waiting several seconds between each shot for the last one to land. If you're getting hit by it without it being point blank or in a situation where you got zerged, blame your own situational awareness.

Actually it's VERY spammable, and almost impossible to dodge.

Try standing next to a dummy and firing it within a distance of point blank - to about half of the Engineer's range... The "arc" almost doesn't exist, and the arrows fly very fast. The explosions are pretty big, and even if they don't get hit by the slug, it's pure AoE, and can catch you within quite a large range. Not to mention this move can be timed by the player entirely (the trigger aspect).

- I want that purple stuff.


#7 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 03:26 PM

WIth only reading the thread title I knew this was about cluster bomb...

#8 metalsazz

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 04:03 PM

Any stacks of vulnerably? did the thief have a full stack of might? That shit does add up :\.


And if you allow a thief near you while he is shotgunning cluster bombs in your face point blank. that well that's not 100% the thief's fault.

#9 ßoß

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:19 PM

Shortbow could use a little toning down.

Edited by ßoß, 21 October 2012 - 07:19 PM.


#10 Zorack

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 07:22 PM

View PostKutsus, on 21 October 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Cluster bomb has a huge (slow) arc, an obvious graphic, and can't be used again until it finally lands. It's very easy to avoid if you are paying attention and is not spammable due to waiting several seconds between each shot for the last one to land. If you're getting hit by it without it being point blank or in a situation where you got zerged, blame your own situational awareness.

Pretty much summed it up. I don't quite think you're following Mekkakat.

Edited by Zorack, 21 October 2012 - 07:23 PM.


#11 bonx

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:51 PM

so had to laugh at this thread :D
and yes, you're qq about dieing.

Edited by bonx, 21 October 2012 - 08:52 PM.


#12 Varun

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 08:54 PM

And then there is their stupid pirouette dance thing (dagger storm) which can't be interrupted by knockdowns and reflects projectiles, while hitting for 3k damage in aoe, every tick.

Whenever I see a mesmer portal appear in our zergs it's like some freaking polka show from hell gets released into the living world as about 50 thiefs and warriors spin out of it.

#13 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 09:00 PM

View PostVarun, on 21 October 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

And then there is their stupid pirouette dance thing (dagger storm) which can't be interrupted by knockdowns and reflects projectiles, while hitting for 3k damage in aoe, every tick.

Yeah, and has half the cooldown of the elementalist tornado, which - while being an immaterial tornado - actually gets damaged by projectiles, wtf?

Edited by AetherMcLoud, 21 October 2012 - 09:01 PM.


#14 Kutsus

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 09:05 PM

View PostVarun, on 21 October 2012 - 08:54 PM, said:

And then there is their stupid pirouette dance thing (dagger storm) which can't be interrupted by knockdowns and reflects projectiles, while hitting for 3k damage in aoe, every tick.

Immobilize (that don't count as ranged attacks), melee attacks, and ground targeted AOEs all work on them while using dagger storm.

#15 Varun

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 09:24 PM

View PostKutsus, on 21 October 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

Immobilize (that don't count as ranged attacks), melee attacks, and ground targeted AOEs all work on them while using dagger storm.

Cool ... I guess ... when you're an elementalist.

GTFO works even better, but we all know there are times when that doesn't apply (notice how I mainly talk about WvW).
I'm just tired of all the spammy moves that do high burst. In my opinion, burst is something you carefully set up, then execute with finesse.

But I digress, the worst thing about thiefs is definitely not that move. The worst thing about thieves is their stealth spam and the fact that very often you still take 2-3 backstabs and hearthseekers to the butt while they're invisible, just because the server can't manage to make their model visible fast enough.

#16 Kutsus

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Posted 21 October 2012 - 10:06 PM

View PostVarun, on 21 October 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

Cool ... I guess ... when you're an elementalist.

Because elementalists have great melee attacks, right? Or are you talking about their limited amount of ground targeted AOEs? Every class has something to bring to the table for countering a Dagger Storm thief, it's your job to figure it out and use it in your favor.

View PostVarun, on 21 October 2012 - 09:24 PM, said:

GTFO works even better, but we all know there are times when that doesn't apply (notice how I mainly talk about WvW).
I'm just tired of all the spammy moves that do high burst. In my opinion, burst is something you carefully set up, then execute with finesse.

But I digress, the worst thing about thiefs is definitely not that move. The worst thing about thieves is their stealth spam and the fact that very often you still take 2-3 backstabs and hearthseekers to the butt while they're invisible, just because the server can't manage to make their model visible fast enough.

Two ways to deal with this until changes are made so stealthed characters show up faster. One - you will always see a black ring at their feet where and exactly when they come out of stealth. Two - you can still target them with Tab or autotarget if you have it turned on the moment they drop stealth. As a side bonus, as soon as you tab target them the game will load their model much quicker than usual. Also, they generally need to land a melee attack to stealth unless they're using a utility with a 30s+ cooldown. One of those utilities can be interrupted (hide in shadows, the heal) because of a cast time. Shadow refuge can be countered by AOEing or auto attacking within the circle. The melee attack requires a very high investment if they miss it. Just two misses and they're nearly empty on initiative. The animation for the attack that stealths them (Cloak & Dagger) is 3/4s long and obvious enough to dodge if you know thy enemy.

I know it's not a common standpoint, but IMO a big part of skill in a game like this is knowing and learning to work around (counter) your enemy's strengths. Whether those strengths are granted by bugs, exploits, or game mechanics - if you spend your efforts on adapting instead of complaining, you'll not only enjoy yourself more but also win more.

Edited by Kutsus, 21 October 2012 - 10:10 PM.


#17 DaPala

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 02:05 PM

View PostKutsus, on 21 October 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

Because elementalists have great melee attacks, right? Or are you talking about their limited amount of ground targeted AOEs? Every class has something to bring to the table for countering a Dagger Storm thief, it's your job to figure it out and use it in your favor.

Yeah, because the thief is countered by dropping a Lava Font. He'll just laugh, keep on spinning and win. Another hint: he can just move out while spinning. That said, Thieves Guild is even more OP than Daggerstorm ~~
And that's not even touching the Warrior-Steal - what about that, 100% evade with OP Damage? Any ideas?

View PostKutsus, on 21 October 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

Two ways to deal with this until changes are made so stealthed characters show up faster. One - you will always see a black ring at their feet where and exactly when they come out of stealth. Two - you can still target them with Tab or autotarget if you have it turned on the moment they drop stealth. As a side bonus, as soon as you tab target them the game will load their model much quicker than usual. Also, they generally need to land a melee attack to stealth unless they're using a utility with a 30s+ cooldown. One of those utilities can be interrupted (hide in shadows, the heal) because of a cast time. Shadow refuge can be countered by AOEing or auto attacking within the circle. The melee attack requires a very high investment if they miss it. Just two misses and they're nearly empty on initiative. The animation for the attack that stealths them (Cloak & Dagger) is 3/4s long and obvious enough to dodge if you know thy enemy.

I know it's not a common standpoint, but IMO a big part of skill in a game like this is knowing and learning to work around (counter) your enemy's strengths. Whether those strengths are granted by bugs, exploits, or game mechanics - if you spend your efforts on adapting instead of complaining, you'll not only enjoy yourself more but also win more.

you can't dodge C&D if the thief times it with steal - not that hard to do - and if you don't see it coming it will kill you, or bring you low enough for 1-2 Heartseekers to finish the job, all in a second or two. And yes, the thief will be invisible the whole time. It might only cost you quarters of a second, but that's only how long it takes to kill you, if the thief is lucky and good.

And to clarify: Its not always about balancing alone - but also about removing mechanics that make the game not fun and frustrating to play. I know some of these things take some skill to pull off, yet they can kill the fun for everyone else incredibly fast. That's what you have to look out for, especially if you want to make it to viable e-sport status.

Edited by DaPala, 22 October 2012 - 02:09 PM.


#18 adra12

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 05:41 PM

View PostDaPala, on 22 October 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

Yeah, because the thief is countered by dropping a Lava Font. He'll just laugh, keep on spinning and win. Another hint: he can just move out while spinning. That said, Thieves Guild is even more OP than Daggerstorm ~~
And that's not even touching the Warrior-Steal - what about that, 100% evade with OP Damage? Any ideas?



you can't dodge C&D if the thief times it with steal - not that hard to do - and if you don't see it coming it will kill you, or bring you low enough for 1-2 Heartseekers to finish the job, all in a second or two. And yes, the thief will be invisible the whole time. It might only cost you quarters of a second, but that's only how long it takes to kill you, if the thief is lucky and good.

And to clarify: Its not always about balancing alone - but also about removing mechanics that make the game not fun and frustrating to play. I know some of these things take some skill to pull off, yet they can kill the fun for everyone else incredibly fast. That's what you have to look out for, especially if you want to make it to viable e-sport status.

And yet thieves aren't everywhere in wvwvw or tpvp. The issue with thieves abilities isn't that they are overpowered its that people want them to be balanced for 1 v 1 even though the game is not intended to be balanced that way. Thieves are great at absolutely destroying bad players but when it comes to facing good players they are good but not great.

As far as the main topic, the cluster bombs large slow arc at high ranges makes it very hard to land if the opponent is paying attention to you, is the thief's only ability at 1200 range and can not be fired again until detonated. At high range you should only be worried about cluster bomb damage if you are part of a zerg. IN small group combat at mid to close range the thief has better abilities for putting out damage, so it shouldn't be an issue.

#19 Garethh

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 06:24 PM

View Postßoß, on 21 October 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

Shortbow could use a little toning down.
The evade is my only qualm, it makes kiting a joke and catching a thief, even a pure offensive backstab thief, an utter pain in the ass.
Just because an off weapon set...

#20 Kutsus

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 07:57 PM

View PostDaPala, on 22 October 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

Yeah, because the thief is countered by dropping a Lava Font. He'll just laugh, keep on spinning and win. Another hint: he can just move out while spinning. That said, Thieves Guild is even more OP than Daggerstorm ~~

I'm just going to assume you missed the context of my statement on this one.

View PostDaPala, on 22 October 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

And that's not even touching the Warrior-Steal - what about that, 100% evade with OP Damage? Any ideas?

The range of the attack is short. Dodge and walk away. Their movement during this animation is relatively slow.

View PostDaPala, on 22 October 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

you can't dodge C&D if the thief times it with steal - not that hard to do - and if you don't see it coming it will kill you, or bring you low enough for 1-2 Heartseekers to finish the job, all in a second or two. And yes, the thief will be invisible the whole time. It might only cost you quarters of a second, but that's only how long it takes to kill you, if the thief is lucky and good.

If you don't catch the little wind up animation when they start a C&D from range and they do manage to land the steal on you, you can still dodge away while auto attacking and/or AOEing on your feet so they can't land the backstab and take some punishment of their own.


View PostDaPala, on 22 October 2012 - 02:05 PM, said:

And to clarify: Its not always about balancing alone - but also about removing mechanics that make the game not fun and frustrating to play. I know some of these things take some skill to pull off, yet they can kill the fun for everyone else incredibly fast. That's what you have to look out for, especially if you want to make it to viable e-sport status.

I enjoy running into backstab thieves. If I fail to counter them, I get wrecked and feel like I deserved it. If I counter them, they die in seconds. I do agree that it takes more skill to counter them than to kill with them, but once countered they are in a very difficult situation even for a great player. This is one of the biggest cons to playing a cooldown reliant glass cannon and the reason you see most of the better players on other classes with more utility and sustainability.

#21 Garethh

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 08:13 PM

View PostKutsus, on 22 October 2012 - 07:57 PM, said:

If you don't catch the little wind up animation when they start a C&D from range and they do manage to land the steal on you, you can still dodge away while auto attacking and/or AOEing on your feet so they can't land the backstab and take some punishment of their own.
Allot of thieves mug before the animation becomes notable (I think around halfway if not earlier threw it), with basilisks venom up.
Next to impossible to dodge, makes a stun break or die situation.

Out of curiosity if a thief just randomly attacks the air with a venom up, does it eat a proc?
(I'm pretty sure its no, but I'm curious anyways)

Edited by Garethh, 22 October 2012 - 08:18 PM.


#22 Vodrin

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 08:23 PM

View PostMekkakat, on 21 October 2012 - 02:03 PM, said:

Actually it's VERY spammable, and almost impossible to dodge.

Try standing next to a dummy and firing it within a distance of point blank - to about half of the Engineer's range... The "arc" almost doesn't exist, and the arrows fly very fast. The explosions are pretty big, and even if they don't get hit by the slug, it's pure AoE, and can catch you within quite a large range. Not to mention this move can be timed by the player entirely (the trigger aspect).

There is a significant delay on the cast when fired at point blank range, unless the thief is running quickness it is quite easy to interrupt, and as stated, quite easy to dodge at longer ranges.

On a separate note, I'll bet that thief was running the minor sigil that stacks damage with kills and had a full 25 stack.  I don't see anywhere near that kind of damage on cluster bomb hitting squishy targets with my thief alt.


View PostGarethh, on 22 October 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

Allot of thieves mug before the animation becomes notable (I think around halfway if not earlier threw it), with basilisks venom up.
Next to impossible to dodge, makes a stun break or die situation.

Out of curiosity if a thief just randomly attacks the air with a venom up, does it eat a proc?
(I'm pretty sure its no, but I'm curious anyways)

Depends on whether or not they have a target selected.  If they have a target it eats a proc, but does not if they do not have a target selected.  At least that was the result when I tested exactly that earlier this week.  I'm in agreement that the combo you mentioned is way to easy to land and far too powerful for how easy it is to execute.

Edited by Vodrin, 22 October 2012 - 08:49 PM.


#23 Kutsus

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Posted 22 October 2012 - 08:45 PM

View PostVodrin, on 22 October 2012 - 08:23 PM, said:

There is a significant delay on the cast when fired at point blank range, unless the thief is running quickness it is quite easy to interrupt, and as stated, quite easy to dodge at longer ranges.

On a separate note, I'll bet that thief was running the minor sigil that stacks damage with kills and had a full 25 stack.  I don't see anywhere near that kind of damage on cluster bomb hitting squishy targets with my thief alt.

if your thief is a glass cannon with the right gear, you can see crits over 10k on other glass cannons. Highest I've seen is 11.7k, but averages are more in the 6-8k area.

View PostGarethh, on 22 October 2012 - 08:13 PM, said:

Allot of thieves mug before the animation becomes notable (I think around halfway if not earlier threw it), with basilisks venom up.
Next to impossible to dodge, makes a stun break or die situation.

Out of curiosity if a thief just randomly attacks the air with a venom up, does it eat a proc?
(I'm pretty sure its no, but I'm curious anyways)

I know missed attacks (blocked, evaded, projectiles that miss) eat venom procs, but i'm not sure about air whiffs. Easy to test, though. I'm at work or I would real quick.

#24 Sly Reckon

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 12:41 AM

A warrior complaining about a thief. Never thought I'd see the day. 4100 damage to your 25k+ health pool shouldn't be much. Otherwise, just shield stance it.

Here you go OP, hope this helps.


Edited by Sly Reckon, 23 October 2012 - 12:42 AM.


#25 Thoran23

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 05:45 AM

View PostKutsus, on 21 October 2012 - 09:05 PM, said:

Immobilize (that don't count as ranged attacks), melee attacks, and ground targeted AOEs all work on them while using dagger storm.

so you play thief right?
Thief needs to be deleted from the game once and for all.
This daggerstorm is the most retarded and oped elite in WvW right now.

And jes Warriors are weak in WvW, i never loose to anyone.

Edit: lol i watched the vid and its a fixed 5 man that stomps a bunch of low randoms. How impressive.

Edited by Thoran23, 23 October 2012 - 06:02 AM.


#26 Budzasty

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:59 AM

This video nicely shows how well you can spec as warrior in order to help yout team in WvW. Zerg focus on warrior while people in the back deal damage freely. Say 5k cluster bombs rain on poor guys zerging bunker warrior. Brings smile on ones face :)

But then it adds noting to the discussion about warrior itself or OP problem. Sure warrior built this way should have easy time surviving thief bs combo, cluster bomb or any class trying to burst him. At the same time this warrior can't really kill anyone so without premade behind it it's next to useless in fights. I mean sure nice to troll a while zergs even solo, but it's get old fast and you will still die now and then with no result.

As for OP and cluster bomb, I'll say it's slow moving projectile(probably hits a bit too hard for AoE), which can't really hit you 3+ times in a row in short period of time(say 3 seconds), so it shouldn't be an issue.

#27 Typhoris

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 08:35 AM

View PostSly Reckon, on 23 October 2012 - 12:41 AM, said:

A warrior complaining about a thief. Never thought I'd see the day. 4100 damage to your 25k+ health pool shouldn't be much. Otherwise, just shield stance it.

Here you go OP, hope this helps.



Lol, that warrior was doing nothing but being a damage soaker with max orb bonus :P

#28 Novalight

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Posted 23 October 2012 - 09:23 AM

I play a damage soaker warrior in WvW (hey, someone needs to push and scare the randoms). Anyway, glass cannon thieves still can hit me up to 8k on 3,4k tougness or 6k HSs (repeatable so not with assa signet), thankfully they're pretty rare-ish with those kind of damage, but still, sometimes I just explode, 2 thieves, bam, warrior down and stomped (and yeh, good luck seeing their windup animations (who can even defend a thief with that kind or argument in WvW - o wait, a thief) it's not like the thiefs are the only players I can see (in fact it's just he opposite)).

Since I play mainly WvW balance in s/tPvP doesn't really concern me atm, but in WvW I think thiefs scale a bit too good with damage. And the argument that they're glass cannons when they 1 shot other glass cannons (eles for example) is invalid, coz other glass cannons can't do stuff thieves can (damage to downed + invisi stomp + GTFO capabilities). Ergo, I hate thieves :P

P.S. If you link a video of Flamus warrior to prove a point, then pls also link video of Flamus thief to prove the point of OP.

#29 Dirame

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 09:21 AM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 21 October 2012 - 09:00 PM, said:

Yeah, and has half the cooldown of the elementalist tornado, which - while being an immaterial tornado - actually gets damaged by projectiles, wtf?

I know right and a person spinning in place shooting daggers in every direction can reflect projectiles... [/no logic no jutsu]

#30 MrForz

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Posted 24 October 2012 - 10:23 PM

Well, you're not going to like the 10k grenade barrages then.




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