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The Roads After PAX | Kill Ten Rats


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#1 Vorsakan

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 03:58 PM

Link: http://www.killtenra...-pax/#more-7092

It is quite different to a lot of coverage - the focus being how GW2 and TOR "auto-compete" - but then Kill Ten Rats isn't simply about reporting MMO news. :D

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Dependencies do not create roles!  Or, rather… that’s not true.  Dependencies overly define roles to the point where a “role” becomes the defining trait.  Roles should be created based on the activities at hand.  Roles should be positively reinforced by what the character can bring to that multiplayer activity.

Take a look at the Guild Wars 2 elementalist profession with it’s four “stances.”  Each stance puts the elementalist into a different elemental attunement.  Fire attunement allows the elementalist to start doing massive AoE damage.  Air attunement switches the elementalist’s DPS from AoE to single-target.  Water does support and healing, and Earth puts the elementalist in to a tank mode.  That way the elementalist can watch the battlefield to synergize with the multiplayer mass to provide for whatever role is necessary at that time.  The elementalist is watching to help the event or party instead of grouping to negate the elementalist’s dependencies.

It’s a very slight difference when looking at a role built on negatively reinforced dependencies versus a role built on positively reinforced synergies.  It gets even worse because it is rarely so black and white anyway.  Most MMOs take a mixture of both into creating classes and group content.  Yet, it’s the focus that really matters, and Guild Wars 2 and SWTOR seem to really have a different focus in this regard.  The battle of these two giants is truly old versus new in the sense of role definition.  Personally I’d rather be looking for players rather than roles.  Caveat lector.


#2 Sengel

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 04:19 PM

good read about the nature of the trinity thanks!

#3 Cloudpiercer

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 04:32 PM

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“There are very traditional roles that you fulfill, multiplayer combat requires that. We’re an MMO, we’re not idiots, we know that you need to have dependencies on others."

lmao I like how bioware trys to not so subtlety call anet idiots for ditching the trinity.

#4 Dirame

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 04:43 PM

Cloudpiercer said:

lmao I like how bioware trys to not so subtlety call anet idiots for ditching the trinity.

It's either they feel it doesn't work when they tried it or they are looking at WoW and saying everything else doesn't work because WoW works.

#5 ilr

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:04 PM

I'm still amazed that Bioware (of all people!) ...is still pulling this crap...

#6 Orion The Demonic

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:08 PM

I love this article. SWTOR is old news. I've already noticed numerous players transitioning from it to GW since GamesCom came out.

#7 Meowhead

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:08 PM

ilr said:

I'm still amazed that Bioware (of all people!) ...is still pulling this crap...

Bioware has always done pretty shitty combat systems.

Jade Empire, Mass Effect (Don't know about 2), Dragon Age... even the KOTOR games.

I like the storytelling, but the combat system is the price I pay to get to them. :)

#8 Shabudua

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:10 PM

They're trying to kiss up to WoW fans. "See? We're following WoW's lead. They aren't. Silly ANet, they think they can ignore the status quo and go where no game has gone before. Haha, when has that ever worked? >cough< Guild Wars 1>cough cough<"

#9 Woutman

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:13 PM

Orion The Demonic said:

I love this article. SWTOR is old news. I've already noticed numerous players transitioning from it to GW since GamesCom came out.

Me being one of them. Well, actually it was shortly before GamesCom, but meh.

#10 Morhilane

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:13 PM

Cloudpiercer said:

lmao I like how bioware trys to not so subtlety call anet idiots for ditching the trinity.

I never saw that quote like that. I always took it as "players are idiots and we need to spoon-feed them how to play in group".

But I don't believe that: teamwork = dependencies on others or group roles = trinity roles, so it might have an effect on how I interpret these quotes.

#11 twitchy

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:15 PM

ilr said:

I'm still amazed that Bioware (of all people!) ...is still pulling this crap...

Right??? Like, I know they aren't MMOs, which is what we're talking about, but it's becoming increasingly more evident that the glory of games like Baldur's Gate and Neverwinter Nights seem soooo far gone from Bioware now... D:

#12 Woutman

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:15 PM

I interpretted it as "we're a new fish on the MMORPG market, so we don't want to take any drastic steps on fields we don't excell at".

#13 Tall

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:16 PM

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"...We’re an MMO, we know that you need to have dependencies on others."

Did anyone else cringe?

#14 Wothan

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:18 PM

Ah
With Star Wars IP in their hands they could have created a behemoth.
With 150 million budget they could have been revolutionary with a never seen combat system, top notch animations etc...

Bioware should have switched their lead designer in the first year

#15 Grodan16

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:18 PM

I interpreted it as GW2 > SWTOR.

#16 Joiry

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:19 PM

Well, it remains to be seen how far GW2 gets from traditional MMOs.  Anet has taken both steps forward and backward with GW2.  Its more like old vs new-ish.

#17 Crusader Coz

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:29 PM

Shabudua said:

They're trying to kiss up to WoW fans. "See? We're following WoW's lead. They aren't. Silly ANet, they think they can ignore the status quo and go where no game has gone before. Haha, when has that ever worked? >cough< Guild Wars 1>cough cough<"

Well yeah, it worked for GW1 because it's GW1. I really don't know that the same stuff would go over well in a SWTOR scenario. Guild Wars was built around the idea of fighting in well, guild or faction sized scenes whereas most MMOs decided that PvE makes the game. For ANet PvP made the game and PvE added to it.

Now GW2 is going to come out and say PvP use PvE to build the game and PvE used PvP to add to it. No other MMO knows PvP quite like GW does and I think it's clear that ANet knows how to put a story together for us to fight over.

They started out going in a different direction, there's no turning back now. Full steam ahead! Give us another update to through us off...

I just want to quote something in the comments to the article that I liked and couldn't have said better myself:

"That cited flexibility of the GW2 Elementalist is exactly what I love about my WoW Druid and Paladin… but better. I very strongly lean in the GW2 direction. The parts about it that I love most are likely the parts that “old school MMO players” (an odd term, since “old” is a mere ten years or so) like the least or actively dislike.

I’m OK with that. I don’t want to play Yet Another DIKU MMO where I have to depend on other players. I’ll happily play with others if I feel like it, and I’m a good little team player, but the only one I ultimately depend on is me. I prefer it that way. I need to be able to step away from the game at a moment’s notice, and self-sufficiency allows that."

In the past if you left in the middle of a dungeon raid it meant the end of the raid for the whole party. With GW2 you should be able to carry on without one player. No need to micromanage everyone's health bar or try your hardest to aggro the enemy so your casters don't get damaged. All the professions are made to take care of themselves. I like that a lot.

Edited by Crusader Coz, 07 September 2010 - 05:32 PM.


#18 ilr

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:33 PM

Joiry said:

Well, it remains to be seen how far GW2 gets from traditional MMOs.  Anet has taken both steps forward and backward with GW2.  Its more like old vs new-ish.

Even so... they're still staying very consistent about their Self-Sufficiency focus from Gw1.   Every class in Gw1 could solo decent sized parts of Level-20 areas designed for 8 players.  Yes even Paragons.... and don't cringe when I say that ...I'm not implying every n00b could, just that every decent player with the right secondary could totally handle  most Level 20 areas alone.

And here's Bioware doing a complete backpedal from everything they ever learned about making great RPGs to this rationale that you're just a f***ing Cog waiting for the other gears to show up before you can serve a purpose...  Is the Dark Side real and did take over there when no one was looking??

#19 raminus

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:52 PM

Pretty interesting article, more or less sums up the current state of the MMO market. Honestly, I truly believe Bioware's going way in the wrong direction... As some people have claimed, WoW with lightsabres is just WoW... with lightsabres. :p

#20 Achrisos

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 05:56 PM

Cloudpiercer said:

lmao I like how bioware trys to not so subtlety call anet idiots for ditching the trinity.

And in the process making themselves look like big idiots since GW2 has so far proven that you do not need the trinity.

#21 Dirame

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 06:01 PM

Shabudua said:

They're trying to kiss up to WoW fans. "See? We're following WoW's lead. They aren't. Silly ANet, they think they can ignore the status quo and go where no game has gone before. Haha, when has that ever worked? >cough< Guild Wars 1>cough cough<"

The funny thing about that is, Anet was part of the foundation of Warcraft. Its kind of okay for them to rip it apart and look in a different direction.

#22 Unlight

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 06:02 PM

"Personally I’d rather be looking for players rather than roles.  Caveat lector."

This is what I took from the article, which pretty much echoes my perspective.  Trinity is old hat.  SWTOR can keep it.

#23 ilr

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 06:07 PM

Dirame said:

The funny thing about that is, Anet was part of the foundation of Warcraft. Its kind of okay for them to rip it apart and look in a different direction.

Warcraft and Diablo never needed the Holy Trinity either.   ...So they're not ripping anything apart.  If anything, they're siding with the rest of us old veteran fans who also split away from Blizzard when they announced Everquest 1.5 (WoW)

#24 Astyu

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 06:11 PM

I like Bioware very much, but if this is the personality they now have, let them F*** Themselves pretty bad! I liked most of the games that they made, and was following the development of TOR (in spite of I wouldn't play it because of the fees), but know,...

I'm dissapointed Bio :(

#25 Vahkris

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 06:15 PM

ilr said:

Warcraft and Diablo never needed the Holy Trinity either.   ...So they're not ripping anything apart.  If anything, they're siding with the rest of us old veteran fans who also split away from Blizzard when they announced Everquest 1.5 (WoW)

Not disagreeing, but I think he's referring to the fact that some of the founding ArenaNet employees were working on WoW before starting on GW1.

#26 ilr

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 06:17 PM

...which probably highlights one of the big reasons they left in the first place.

#27 Pywatt the Swift

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 06:21 PM

Vahkris said:

Not disagreeing, but I think he's referring to the fact that some of the founding ArenaNet employees were working on WoW before starting on GW1.

Jeff Strain was the Lead Programmer. He left Anet recently though.

#28 Volfen

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 06:24 PM

Seems 'events' are a new and improved way of bringing players together, rather than the old artifice of h-trinity; where playing a P2P was equivalent to being milked from both front and back by the time-sink of balancing a party of players over several months to meet the demands of the content treadmills.

#29 Dirame

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 06:27 PM

Vahkris said:

Not disagreeing, but I think he's referring to the fact that some of the founding ArenaNet employees were working on WoW before starting on GW1.

Yes that was what I was referring to.

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Jeff Strain was the Lead Programmer. He left Anet recently though.


Zombie game FTW!

#30 Aba

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Posted 07 September 2010 - 06:30 PM

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or they are looking at WoW and saying everything else doesn't work because WoW works.
Seems Bioware now holds the same weight as all the sheep that follow Mr-T, wanting there Mohawk grenades.