Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help
- - - - -

How to deal with stealth/bleed spamming thieves?


  • Please log in to reply
24 replies to this topic

#1 Kyris

Kyris

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 162 posts
  • Location:United Kingdom
  • Guild Tag:[GG]
  • Server:Desolation

Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:40 PM

They appear, stack about 5 bleeds, then disappear, then appear again, stack 4 more bleeds, then stealth again, then they pop up, bleed, stealth, bleed, stealth, bleed, stealth

There doesn't appear to be a limit to how many times they can bleed me and then restealth

So I'm left with a constant stack or 10-15 bleeds, each ticking for 120~ damage each, and I have very little oppurtunity to actually hit the thief because he's either dodging or in stealth

My best chance, I found, was to use iDisenchanter & Arcane Thievery, the disenchanter would remove the bleeds and I would transfer the bleeds back onto the thief every chance I got. unfiortunately, the disenchanter dies pretty quickly due to the AoE bleeds & it's low HP, so it only stays alive long enough to remove maybe 2 stacks of bleed

and yes, I am aware that the caltrops cause the bleeds & I was trying to avoid standing on them, but it's pretty difficult when they're litterally EVERYWHERE on the screen -.-

#2 zoopop

zoopop

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 68 posts

Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:45 PM

Someone Please explain to me why there the ONLY class in the game that pretty much ALLOWS you to spam? I mean in all honesty this is the only class i played where u can have the best of EVERYTHING and pretty much has a perfect skill trait line , unlike most classes where there traits still needs a butt load of working to be done on.

But i'll still like to know why this class is allwoed to pretty much spam, espically after you got skill traits that make it possible.

#3 Angelus359

Angelus359

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 358 posts
  • Location:Illinois

Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:06 AM

thief is counterbalanced by limited initiative

It can't keep it up for long, it has incredible burst, but then it's DPS sucks

#4 lujate

lujate

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 428 posts
  • Location:NA
  • Guild Tag:[FDM]
  • Server:Ferguson’s Crossing

Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:53 AM

See if there is anything in this thread that helps.
http://www.guildwars...th-thieves-wvw/

#5 RandolfRa

RandolfRa

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 414 posts

Posted 27 November 2012 - 12:59 AM

View Postzoopop, on 23 October 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

But i'll still like to know why this class is allwoed to pretty much spam, espically after you got skill traits that make it possible.
Because Anet had to please the sin players who migrated from gw1. Considering the IQ damage caused by excessive spamming, they also had to simplify things:
gw1: 1-2-3-4-5-...
gw2: f1-1-1-1-...

Anyway, I only play wvw so this type of thiefs aren't really a problem. I can just stealth, blink and leave them spamming caltrops. They are very rare there as well.

Edited by RandolfRa, 27 November 2012 - 01:10 AM.


#6 Matron

Matron

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 19 posts
  • Guild Tag:[ZB]
  • Server:Isle of Janthir

Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:35 PM

View PostKyris, on 23 October 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

My best chance, I found, was to use iDisenchanter & Arcane Thievery, the disenchanter would remove the bleeds and I would transfer the bleeds back onto the thief every chance I got. unfiortunately, the disenchanter dies pretty quickly due to the AoE bleeds & it's low HP, so it only stays alive long enough to remove maybe 2 stacks of bleed

It sounds like you already have the best solution for the problem. I don't like using Arcane Thievery and in general I try to avoid (good) thiefs in a solo fight. Until the mechanics of the thief class get improvements we are pretty much stuck with OP spamming. The class becomes increasingly dangerous when a talented player is behind the mouse. In all reality, line of site and constant mobility is your best friend.

Edited by Matron, 27 November 2012 - 05:36 PM.


#7 ClickJ

ClickJ

    Pale Tree Seedling

  • New Members
  • 9 posts
  • Location:Somewhere
  • Profession:Elementalist
  • Guild Tag:[XXX]
  • Server:Jade Quarry

Posted 29 December 2012 - 11:47 AM

I personally recommend "sigil of hydromacy" which cause freezing for 5sec
deal damage till thief's hp 50% left
then, use moa bird. that's my way.

#8 Morghana

Morghana

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 386 posts
  • Location:Madrid
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Guild Tag:[UI]
  • Server:Baruch Bay

Posted 29 December 2012 - 05:47 PM

I tend to use the traits about 'on illusion/clone kill' (Confusing Combatants,Crippling Dissipation,Debilitating Dissipation)  to stack on AOEers multiple conditions and cripple. I also use several stealth/blink utilities. This way, you only have to endurance (flurry, distortion, dodge..) and create clones while he is killling himself, he will go defensive in a couple of jumps..

#9 Sinnacle

Sinnacle

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 236 posts
  • Guild Tag:[GH]
  • Server:Ehmry Bay

Posted 02 January 2013 - 04:55 PM

View Postzoopop, on 23 October 2012 - 06:45 PM, said:

Someone Please explain to me why there the ONLY class in the game that pretty much ALLOWS you to spam? I mean in all honesty this is the only class i played where u can have the best of EVERYTHING and pretty much has a perfect skill trait line , unlike most classes where there traits still needs a butt load of working to be done on.

But i'll still like to know why this class is allwoed to pretty much spam, espically after you got skill traits that make it possible.

You can spam because you don't have skills on cooldown.  You have initiative, the way the skills are set up is that stealth gives you something different on the skill.  In all honesty if you looked at the thieves skills applied Cooldowns to those skills would anyone even touch the class?  I highly doubt it.  I will say that the trait line for the thief is pretty good compared to mesmer you can do so much tinkering with it I find it really good in comparison.  

Also to add to this if I spam say CnD till I have no intiative left then I switch to Shortbow I can't do anything except auto attack until I have enough initiative unless traited for Quick Pockets and the 3 ini return on swap.

On topic though I use to Main Mesmer now I main thief I play P/D thief which is the bleed stacking thief your talking about.  

View PostMorghana, on 29 December 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

I tend to use the traits about 'on illusion/clone kill' (Confusing Combatants,Crippling Dissipation,Debilitating Dissipation)  to stack on AOEers multiple conditions and cripple. I also use several stealth/blink utilities. This way, you only have to endurance (flurry, distortion, dodge..) and create clones while he is killling himself, he will go defensive in a couple of jumps..

This is not the same thief he is talking about your referring to a BS D/D thief.  A P/D thief is basically the thief's version of the D/D ele its kind of bunker I guess you could say but still suffers from normal thief squishyness.  

Most P/D thieves run full carrion which gives about 20k vitality around 1.7k power around 2.7k attack mostly from condition damage.  0/0/30/20/20 is a popular setup unless they are running venoms.   Honestly the only time I have trouble with mesmers is if its full glass shatter but everyone has trouble with those.  

The cycle of attack is CnD+Steal,Sneak attack (5 bleed stack) Vital shot(1 bleed stack) vital shot, CnD.  That is the basic best case scenario what you want to do is get rid of your clones dont leave them out there as they are free stealth.  So you want to see thief shatter rinse and repeat.  Conditions dont matter to the thief.  Null field honestly can help but its not great disenchanter is a good call as leaving it out will cure the bleeds.  

Most are set up with around 75%-100% condition duration to allow an easy 9-10 bleed stack constantly.  DPS is terrible though as far as direct damage its really low.  At best maybe the thief can do 1000 damage on a sneak attacks if they get some fury for crits and some might stacks.  Other wise its like 700-800 damage for a sneak attack and 225 for a vital shot.  Crit chance is a non factor.  Mine is like 4%.

What really works is when you see the thief at range he will start to get close to you to try to land a Cloak and Dagger to restealth.  That is when you want to knock back, blind, or daze.  CnD is vital to a P/D thief you stop the CnD you can stop the thief.  I cant guarantee you will catch and or kill the thief but he will not likely keep fighting if you are ahead on life and he missed 1-2 cloak and daggers.

The whole confusing the opponent is kind of useless against this style.  I can easily pick out the right mesmer because I know who is bleeding the most.  Since P/D is single target it makes it alot less likely to mistakenly shoot a clone.

Edited by Sinnacle, 02 January 2013 - 05:12 PM.


#10 Matron

Matron

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 19 posts
  • Guild Tag:[ZB]
  • Server:Isle of Janthir

Posted 03 January 2013 - 04:48 PM

No problems at all with thieves (excluding raw player skill) since I switched to Arcane Thievery. I wait for a few stacks of bleed, look for the black swirl that signifies the thief is reappearing, and put it all on him with Thievery and at least a 2 clone + body shatter. With the right traits thats almost 75% of the thiefs HP and with any luck you will steal his regen, protection, and swiftness buffs.

#11 Sinnacle

Sinnacle

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 236 posts
  • Guild Tag:[GH]
  • Server:Ehmry Bay

Posted 03 January 2013 - 09:33 PM

View PostMatron, on 03 January 2013 - 04:48 PM, said:

No problems at all with thieves (excluding raw player skill) since I switched to Arcane Thievery. I wait for a few stacks of bleed, look for the black swirl that signifies the thief is reappearing, and put it all on him with Thievery and at least a 2 clone + body shatter. With the right traits thats almost 75% of the thiefs HP and with any luck you will steal his regen, protection, and swiftness buffs.

this isn't bad at all very nice indeed, never thought about that.

#12 Morghana

Morghana

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 386 posts
  • Location:Madrid
  • Profession:Mesmer
  • Guild Tag:[UI]
  • Server:Baruch Bay

Posted 03 January 2013 - 10:36 PM

View PostSinnacle, on 02 January 2013 - 04:55 PM, said:

You can spam because you don't have skills on cooldown.  You have initiative, the way the skills are set up is that stealth gives you something different on the skill.  In all honesty if you looked at the thieves skills applied Cooldowns to those skills would anyone even touch the class?  I highly doubt it.  I will say that the trait line for the thief is pretty good compared to mesmer you can do so much tinkering with it I find it really good in comparison.  

Also to add to this if I spam say CnD till I have no intiative left then I switch to Shortbow I can't do anything except auto attack until I have enough initiative unless traited for Quick Pockets and the 3 ini return on swap.

On topic though I use to Main Mesmer now I main thief I play P/D thief which is the bleed stacking thief your talking about.  

This is not the same thief he is talking about your referring to a BS D/D thief.  A P/D thief is basically the thief's version of the D/D ele its kind of bunker I guess you could say but still suffers from normal thief squishyness.  

Most P/D thieves run full carrion which gives about 20k vitality around 1.7k power around 2.7k attack mostly from condition damage.  0/0/30/20/20 is a popular setup unless they are running venoms.   Honestly the only time I have trouble with mesmers is if its full glass shatter but everyone has trouble with those.  

The cycle of attack is CnD+Steal,Sneak attack (5 bleed stack) Vital shot(1 bleed stack) vital shot, CnD.  That is the basic best case scenario what you want to do is get rid of your clones dont leave them out there as they are free stealth.  So you want to see thief shatter rinse and repeat.  Conditions dont matter to the thief.  Null field honestly can help but its not great disenchanter is a good call as leaving it out will cure the bleeds.  

Most are set up with around 75%-100% condition duration to allow an easy 9-10 bleed stack constantly.  DPS is terrible though as far as direct damage its really low.  At best maybe the thief can do 1000 damage on a sneak attacks if they get some fury for crits and some might stacks.  Other wise its like 700-800 damage for a sneak attack and 225 for a vital shot.  Crit chance is a non factor.  Mine is like 4%.

What really works is when you see the thief at range he will start to get close to you to try to land a Cloak and Dagger to restealth.  That is when you want to knock back, blind, or daze.  CnD is vital to a P/D thief you stop the CnD you can stop the thief.  I cant guarantee you will catch and or kill the thief but he will not likely keep fighting if you are ahead on life and he missed 1-2 cloak and daggers.

The whole confusing the opponent is kind of useless against this style.  I can easily pick out the right mesmer because I know who is bleeding the most.  Since P/D is single target it makes it alot less likely to mistakenly shoot a clone.


View PostKyris, on 23 October 2012 - 06:40 PM, said:

They appear, stack about 5 bleeds, then disappear, then appear again, stack 4 more bleeds, then stealth again, then they pop up, bleed, stealth, bleed, stealth, bleed, stealth

There doesn't appear to be a limit to how many times they can bleed me and then restealth

So I'm left with a constant stack or 10-15 bleeds, each ticking for 120~ damage each, and I have very little oppurtunity to actually hit the thief because he's either dodging or in stealth

My best chance, I found, was to use iDisenchanter & Arcane Thievery, the disenchanter would remove the bleeds and I would transfer the bleeds back onto the thief every chance I got. unfiortunately, the disenchanter dies pretty quickly due to the AoE bleeds & it's low HP, so it only stays alive long enough to remove maybe 2 stacks of bleed

and yes, I am aware that the caltrops cause the bleeds & I was trying to avoid standing on them, but it's pretty difficult when they're litterally EVERYWHERE on the screen -.-


Actually, I was talking about D/D - caltrops spam thieves in particular and AOErs in general.

Edited by Morghana, 03 January 2013 - 10:37 PM.


#13 mofogie

mofogie

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 74 posts

Posted 14 January 2013 - 03:06 AM

i play both classes, so i can help you understand what's going on.

couple tips:  roll immediately when you her the 'sneak attack', ( that's the pistol shot from stealth)  The attack is 5 shots, each one bleeds. if you have good reflexes, you'll dodge most of them already.

if you're not familiar with stealth mechanics, learn them.  You have at least 3 seconds to retaliate when he has revealed debuff.

Pistol/Dagger thieves, (P./D) usually slot skill shadow refuge or blinding powder, or maybe both.  If they have both, they probably dont have shadowstep, which means they're screwed if they're immobilized or stunned/kd'd.   If you know this, then sword/mindwrack combo will annihilate them.  Also try to save greatsword knockback for the shadow refuge.  You'll have a good chance of booting him out of there, which will royallly screw him over.

there are several advantages mesmers have over thieves:  their stealth requires no resource, and is on comparable cooldowns.  It is far easier to stealth as a mesmer than a thief.  Thieves have to manage their initiative, and worry about cloak and dagger missing.  Mesmer, just tap a button and done.  PD thieves rely on cloak and dagger alot, make a thief, learn how it works, learn the animation, learn the sound effect, and learn how to stop it, (rolling, blinding right before the attack, etc).  If they CnD your clones, it's typically out of desperation.  CnD takes alot of initiative, and does alot of damage. It's not something you want to waste regularly on clones.

other advantage you have over thieves: 4k more health naturally, and heals heal for more, and are on shorter cooldown.  It is difficult for most thief builds to outlast a mesmer, they simply have more hps.   Knowing this, you will have many opportunities to do a good burst on the theif using sword 2 and sword 3 + whatever offhand you choose.

Using these advantages, you need to regularly put on burst pressure on the thief when he's revealed, and thankfully mesmer burst is on short cooldown.  

if you want to be on even mroe equal footing, use torch, and some cloaking slot skills.  This will really put frustration on PD thieves.

finally, you have the option of running and resetting the fight if you don't like the way it's going.  PD thieves don't have as good mobility as other thief specs and weapon combinations.  Just kite, illusionary berserk without even looking back, and cloak out of there or blink, so many ways a mes can get away.

Edited by mofogie, 14 January 2013 - 03:15 AM.


#14 cruzydub

cruzydub

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 48 posts
  • Location:EU
  • Server:Kodash

Posted 14 January 2013 - 10:01 AM

I have more Problems with D/D Thiefs that can manage the steal-CD-backstab combo. cause they hit for 8k+ and then one HS and you have real problems. Especially as they hit hs most of the time at least one time also if you stealth

#15 Eliyahu

Eliyahu

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 121 posts
  • Guild Tag:[LaZy]

Posted 14 January 2013 - 07:07 PM

View Postcruzydub, on 14 January 2013 - 10:01 AM, said:

I have more Problems with D/D Thiefs that can manage the steal-CD-backstab combo. cause they hit for 8k+ and then one HS and you have real problems. Especially as they hit hs most of the time at least one time also if you stealth

I find D/D thieves much easier than P/D thieves in WvW.  A D/D thief must get in close to deal damage, at which point you get a free round of shatters in his face.  He's probably dead now -- or close to it.  A good P/D thief unloads his damage at range and can restealth using CnD on a clone, rabbit, or any other mob.   Much, much harder to kill to kill since very little of our damage is instant.

#16 AssimilateThis

AssimilateThis

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 90 posts

Posted 15 January 2013 - 12:11 AM

The biggest issue with P/D in WvW is the broken culling.  I typically just avoid them as it's more of a headache when you have clone on dodge traited.  SPvP I find them much much easier to kill given they can't stack food, the culling is much better and they also have much less targets to land CnD (if you don't know, CnD lands without a target as long as something is in the path of the animation).  If you're shatter spec, a lot of the time you're not going to burst them down because of their HP via carrion unless you hit crits on everything so best to time your burst when you have fury.

Anyway it seems like a great trolling build!  You literally use 3-4 hotkeys and just run around annoying everyone in WvW.

Edited by AssimilateThis, 15 January 2013 - 12:14 AM.


#17 Tessa Avery

Tessa Avery

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 56 posts
  • Profession:Thief
  • Guild Tag:[Tr]
  • Server:Fort Aspenwood

Posted 19 January 2013 - 08:53 AM

I am primarily a thief player exclusively spvp I also play Necro, Ele, and Warrior

Just to give you guys some insight, the thief and mesmer are archenemies at least in spvp thieves think mesmers are OP and mesmers think thieves are OP. The reason that some mesmers have trouble fighting P/D Cloak and dagger thieves is that it is a set up that is most efficient for taking out mesmers, and in my opinion the one of the only ways to win vs a decent mesmer. I win most of my battles vs all classes (especially thieves =p) but mesmers give me the hardest time and im sure many thieves out there can say the same thing.

Honestly if you have a illusionary duelist (which i think is SUPER OP) fighting a thief will be easy.

All it takes to kill someone with a mesmer is to pop your illusions, snare, null field and go in with the sword blur and its usually your advantage right there if you already didn't down them.

For a thief to take a mesmer they have to run around stealth/dodge like crazy and slowly batter them down with bleeds. There are those glass cannon thieves out there (who i despise lol) that might get you if you arent paying attention but other than that the P/D kite/stealth/bleed strategy is the most viable counter to a mesmer.

Its just escalation mesmers start using a build that is OP it is only natural for someone to find something that can beat it. In my opinion you guys dont have much to even worry about just know when to cast your skills and dodge at the right time and you will be chill, us thieves on the other hand generally have the short end of the stick when it comes to mesmers so STOP YO COMPLAINING haha jk

Peace and Love

#18 F O S T E R

F O S T E R

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 38 posts
  • Location:Poprad, Slovakia
  • Guild Tag:[IM]
  • Server:Seafarer’s Rest

Posted 19 January 2013 - 09:01 PM

Against thieves in sPvP there is only phantasm build viable(and of course bunker builds). Because you have many hp. All other builds: http://i46.tinypic.com/hsj9j5.jpg. I'm shatter mesmer, I saw thief, used blink to go behind him, he turned to me, came to me..... ress.
Thieves are mesmer killers, if thieves say that mesmers are OP, the problem is with them - playing as thief. It's true if thief doesn't kill me using surprise, I kill him. But the whole result of fight thief vs. mesmer depend only to thief skill.

#19 lmaonade

lmaonade

    Seraph Guardian

  • Members
  • 1122 posts
  • Location:That one place with the thing
  • Guild Tag:[NGE]
  • Server:Crystal Desert

Posted 20 January 2013 - 09:59 PM

buh didn't see the timestamp, anyways P/D is super popular in WvW and the like now

Edited by lmaonade, 20 January 2013 - 10:01 PM.


#20 cruzydub

cruzydub

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 48 posts
  • Location:EU
  • Server:Kodash

Posted 21 January 2013 - 08:04 AM

I also played P/D Thief the last few days. Did pretty well but tbh thats the most boring thing in game. I only need 2 buttons of my 1 to 5 slots. My main is a mesmer and thats much more fun. But I have to say P/D Condition thiefes can almost beat anything I guess.

#21 Curunen

Curunen

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 47 posts

Posted 23 January 2013 - 09:24 PM

I don't find thieves harder than other classes, but those bleeds! :o

I feel like playing a stupid build with arcane thievery, null field and mantra of resolve, just to get rid of those damn bleeds.

#22 cruzydub

cruzydub

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 48 posts
  • Location:EU
  • Server:Kodash

Posted 24 January 2013 - 08:36 AM

use runes of lyssa and null field and your done. They don´t survive long enough that you need more removal. if you land at least one burst they are down or really in trouble. even if they stealth you can shatter them and place chaos storm on there stealth field (dont no the name of the skill right now)

#23 Kovares

Kovares

    Asuran Acolyte

  • Members
  • 118 posts

Posted 12 February 2013 - 04:46 PM

It depends on how much bleeds they can stack. Some bad ones only rely on their stealth pistol shot and otherwise try to stay hidden, those are not too bad to handle. The really dangerous ones (at least that's what I try to do when I'm on my thief xD) start with cnd -> steal combo -> pistol shot -> swap to daggers, with sigil of geomancy -> 2x ldb -> cnd restealth. That's a solid 14 stacks minimum, which hurts pretty bad. Bear in mind also that despite what it looks like, this combo is really quick to execute, and the thief does get some invulnerable frames due to ldb while he is revealed, and he can dodge until revealed ticks down.

As far as counters go, I'd say forget about arcane thievery and try to burst the hell out of him instead. The cooldown on thievery is too high and the thief is pretty much invulnerable to conditions himself (he loses 1 on restealth and once per second while invisible). Null field or the mantra work well enough.
Also, remember that you have superior range, your phantasms all have 1200 range while his steal has 900 (untraited at least), so you might be able to kite him for a bit with the berserker if you're lucky. This will force either his heal or shadow refuge, the last one can be countered with gs #5. If you ever get him revealed and on low health, try to immobilize him with sword #3 and attack with #2 and shatter and kill him, if not, stack phantasms on him as much as you can, as he doesn't have long range aoe he won't be able to deal with them and keep up the pressure on you at the same time.

#24 Dairuiner

Dairuiner

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 43 posts

Posted 28 February 2013 - 05:52 PM

Save your dodges for either his sneak attack (pistol coming out of stealth) or his leaping death blossom. Don't stand in caltrops. Do those 2 things and he might still win, but it will be a REALLY long fight. Don't bother trying to dodge his C/D, he's going to land it on either you or a clone, and you need that dodge for when he comes out pistol blazing. Dodge the big bleed stackers.

If you're running mirror, time it as he comes out of stealth with sneak attack. Same if you're running reflection on distortion.

Between dodges, blurred frenzy, distortion, and phase retreat, it should be very rare that he actually lands a full sneak attack or LDB. His pistol 1's will still land but they do less damage over time than your heal will replace.. Kite when he has daggers out, LDB slows him down.

If you can time a daze shatter when he's casting C/D, watch him cower away in fear.

Edited by Dairuiner, 28 February 2013 - 06:03 PM.


#25 Dairuiner

Dairuiner

    Fahrar Cub

  • Members
  • 43 posts

Posted 28 February 2013 - 06:06 PM

View PostKovares, on 12 February 2013 - 04:46 PM, said:

if not, stack phantasms on him as much as you can, as he doesn't have long range aoe he won't be able to deal with them and keep up the pressure on you at the same time.

This also.. don't shatter unless you know they're going to land, and spread out your phantasms so a single LDB doesn't kill them all. Every time he comes out of stealth he'll get shot in the face by your illusions. Keep them out of caltrops also, which should be a given since you should never be standing in it either. Don't worry too much about being decapped, staying on the point (i.e. in caltrops) is the only way he can kill you quickly.

If you're running focus, stand inside your warden when he's using pistol. You should spend most of your time in staff or GS though so your illusions stay put and don't go running around swinging a sword in caltrops.

Edited by Dairuiner, 28 February 2013 - 06:10 PM.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users