Jump to content

  • Curse Sites
Help
- - - - -

End-game Suggestion.


  • Please log in to reply
4 replies to this topic

#1 Capped

Capped

    Pale Tree Seedling

  • New Members
  • 5 posts

Posted 23 October 2012 - 06:58 PM

This is a suggestion i made on another website and decided to post it here to get some more opinions, i think its a solid idea that would expand the endgame in the way we all want. Feedback and suggestions welcome and wanted! - I think i edited out all the naughty words.

They need to add in difficult scenarios for end-game, if they dont want to go down the raid route, then how about open-zone events that are extremely difficult and have to be triggered in a certain way?

Open-world challenges, hard-as-****, need to be ORGANISED to complete (with 20+ people minimum i would say, so that even massive zergs of 50 get bum*ed.) Things like event chains in each area, or only the higher level areas. Or stand-alone bosses (like the 3 dragons we have now) in a secluded area.

Something like 10-15 of these things would provide players with something to do. (Although im not sure what the rewards could be, maybe chances of rare looking gear unique to that event and high level exo's and mats.) And seeing as its open world, anybody can jump in and enjoy.

Zerging is an issue, and its hard to counter with the no holy trinity system (which, i love. **** dat shizzle.) as anyone can faceroll with marginal differences in success. (Light vs heavy armor etc)

Adding a power scaling system to these end-level events and the need for organisation that requires a select number of organised players (say 20) for things like CC, focused fire and whatnot (their job for ideas yo) would make these things have a distinct level of challenge that all these players are looking for.

With 10-15 seperate event chains or bosses in different zones nobody would ever be lost for something to do, if each one took between 10-30 minutes to complete and they all had a 1-2 hour "respawn" i think things could work out. Of course these numbers would need testing, theorycrafting and adjustment, this is all a base idea. With so many events available its possible for 5 or so to be on the go at once, so the entire server isnt camping X event chain or big-boss.

Also, to prevent the camping of said event chains, requiring a certain item to trigger the event would be a decent idea as players would be required to farm the item to trigger the event (which also gives them more **** to do, "meaningful" shit) and then not waste it by gathering the organised group they would need to complete the event. Casuals still welcome to join in and experience the ride, but the organised group is required to start and complete the event.

Edited by Capped, 23 October 2012 - 06:58 PM.


#2 Larsen

Larsen

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 224 posts

Posted 28 October 2012 - 08:53 AM

Open-world content is almost never good. It's impossible to balance PvE content for an unknown amount of players. It will almost always be incredibly easy because far more players will show up than necessary. It also severely limits the availability of this content, and I really hope that non-instanced endgame gameplay is a thing of the past. I think it has been established by now that an MMORPG's PvE endgame needs to be challenging, needs to require an organized group of a uniform size, and needs to provide rewards that feel meaningful. World bosses and zerg gameplay can never keep people interested season after season. If ANet are serious about appealing to a broad audience and becoming the best MMORPG on the market, there really is no way around the need for raid gameplay. There's plenty of freedom to develop this without copying WoW -- people really need to remember that WoW did not invent raiding, they just made it feel like a formulaic theme park due to their desire to appeal to extremely young players.

#3 Sheepski

Sheepski

    Seraph Guardian

  • Moderators
  • 1240 posts
  • Location:Manchester
  • Server:Gandara

Posted 28 October 2012 - 09:17 AM

View PostLarsen, on 28 October 2012 - 08:53 AM, said:

Open-world content is almost never good. It's impossible to balance PvE content for an unknown amount of players. It will almost always be incredibly easy because far more players will show up than necessary. It also severely limits the availability of this content, and I really hope that non-instanced endgame gameplay is a thing of the past. I think it has been established by now that an MMORPG's PvE endgame needs to be challenging, needs to require an organized group of a uniform size, and needs to provide rewards that feel meaningful. World bosses and zerg gameplay can never keep people interested season after season. If ANet are serious about appealing to a broad audience and becoming the best MMORPG on the market, there really is no way around the need for raid gameplay. There's plenty of freedom to develop this without copying WoW -- people really need to remember that WoW did not invent raiding, they just made it feel like a formulaic theme park due to their desire to appeal to extremely young players.

So, if you wanted gw to introduce raids; what would the incentive/reward be to participate week in week out?

I mean is it purely about having an organised group of players tackling difficult challenges, or would you want another token/drop based system for cosmetic items?

Take into consideration here, that gw2 will never be about more levels or more powerful gear, so I'm wondering how any "tiers" of raids will work, or even how the reward system would differ from dungeons that we currently have.

As an aside, I'd personally do the raids just for the challenge/achievements etc, and for any new armour/weapon skins that were obtainable.

On topic: I'm pretty sure the 3 dragons we fight are supposed to be this type of end-game, organised content. Obviously they could create new, interesting battles with different rewards etc, although they've said they're looking into the rewards we get from chests anyway.
You have to remember too, that introducing this sort of content takes up a lot of space on the current maps (look at frostgorge where a huge eastern chunk is dedicated to CoJ) and as such would be difficult to fit into current maps, or screw over the other players in the map, stopping them from passing through, gathering, exploring etc when there's a giant mob stood in their way with an organised group of 20 killing it.

Edited by Sheepski, 28 October 2012 - 09:22 AM.

Question, feedback or issue? Pm me!


#4 Larsen

Larsen

    Vanguard Scout

  • Members
  • 224 posts

Posted 28 October 2012 - 10:09 AM

I think they'll need to bite the bullet and introduce more tiers of gear. It's not just about spoonfeeding incentive to players, it also happens to be the best way to regulate progress and difficulty. Hell, in a character-based game, it tends to be the only really succesful way. This is why almost all character-based games do that.

GW2 has an itemization, but it's so shallow that it can almost be regarded as more of a step-based checklist. Gearing up in GW2 feels to me more like getting new weapons in a shooter game because the items are so formulaic and categorized, and because the glass ceiling is so low. Like I've been saying, you can literally deplete the game's itemization (i.e get the best possible gear in the whole game) in a matter of days, maybe a couple of weeks at most if you play  with any kind of regularity. This does not suit the MMORPG genre, and that's why MMORPGs never do it this way. It was just barely acceptable in GW1 because it was more like a co-op mission game and, later on, almost a single-player game akin to Baldur's Gate and its likeness. This made it okay that the itemization was shallow (although part of what made it okay was also the fact that the missions were genuinely good, unlike the personal quest and the various world events in GW2). MMORPG is not a genre that is conducive to the kind of playstyle where you log in a couple of times a week to do something superficial without caring about goals or efficiency, but it feels like this is how GW2 wants you to play. If they wanted that, they should have stuck to the mission-based model where it was actually possible to just log in once in a while and do your favorite mission for fun.

The good thing is that the developers have already set themselves up nicely for the ability to fully separate PvP and PvE. This lack of separation was what used to cause problems in older MMORPGs, leading to things such as the fact that raiders always won because they had much better gear (early WoW) or whoever had the most money also had the best stuff regardless of whether or not they had any clue how to play (early Everquest). This does not have to be the case in GW2, we have the structure for full separation. To satisfy those who argue against an endgame out of a selfish concern for the possibility that there might be players with better stuff than them, the developers could even go so far as to say that the rewards for raiding can only be used in the zones you raid in. You don't need it anywhere else, after all. The important thing is that there's something to do that requires some measure of planning, cooperation, ambition and dedication. There is currently nothing like that in the game. I think ANet and their fans are shootin themselves in the foot by trying to be so not-WoW that they're letting the game be worse for it. There's nothing wrong with raid content, there's nothing wrong with an itemization that has more than one tier, and there's nothing wrong with having a game that allows the existence of hardcore or elite players. If a game has none of this, it won't satsify any of those players, and they are after all the ones who write on forums and do reviews and such.

I think the removal of the healer role ensures that even traditional raid gameplay is going to be different enough that it feels unique in this game. They can make it much more about awareness and reactions rather than damage meters and healing per second. They'd have to, without a healer class or real aggro mechanics. As such, I don't think there's anything wrong with raid content, nor does it have to be the kind of top-heavy, sluggish army-like raiding that earlier MMORPGs had. Even WoW is increasingly moving towards 10-man raiding and a less labor-intensive experience, and that seems to suit GW2's mechanics and systems quite nicely. Without real healers and tanks, you can't have ten-minute boss fights and soulcrushing gear checks to the same extent that WoW and Everquest did. Instead, the combat mechanics in this game seem well-suited for finesse gameplay and encounters that emphasise individual skill rather than voice-comm coordination. I just don't think this can be maintained in the long term without item rewards and a vaguely tiered design, and I don't think that's as bad as the reactionary anti-WoW crowd would have everyone believe. WoW is not a bad game, it's just that everyone has played it so long they're sick of it, and also it has a ton of annoying kids. Up until quite recently, it featured by far the best gameplay that the genre had ever seen, and shunning all of it just because it's WoW makes it very difficult to design a succesful game yourself. ANet made a valiant effort, but I'd say that the pressure on them to make an MMORPG whose main theme was "this isn't WoW" has backfired because they couldn't find suitable endgame content since WoW has done all of the known kinds of endgame.

#5 Sheepski

Sheepski

    Seraph Guardian

  • Moderators
  • 1240 posts
  • Location:Manchester
  • Server:Gandara

Posted 28 October 2012 - 10:35 AM

As much thought and articulation you put into your post, I have to disagree with the fundamental element.

I don't mind discussing how Guild Wars 2 could implement raiding, but I'm not going to get into an argument over the pro's and con's of a gear progression style system vs a more plateaued style we see with the GW brand.

The simple fact is that during the last 7 or 8 years, they've never decided to implement gear progression, and it's this level playing field that is a reason a lot of people play the game for. I doubt they'd go back on this philosophy now.

Besides, this thread is about open world event style, organised end game, best not derail it too much... make a thread about your ideas on Raids in Gw2 though if you wish and we can continue the discussion :)

OP: How would you combat the one or two issues I raised previously about your idea. For example would you create new zones with these built in, similar to Frostgorge and Bladeridge etc have areas designated to the dragons?

Question, feedback or issue? Pm me!





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users