90 replies to this topic

[AetherMcLoud]

Red_Falcon, on 27 October 2012 - 11:35 PM, said:

Let's skip all your butthurt, childish, embarassing insults.

Still doesn't change the facts by a least bit: all people in non-noob sPvP slots these skills, which nullify thief's one trick pony.
If you haven't figured it out yet perhaps you're still wandering blindly among the baddie crowd, thinking you're supposed to counter a class' burst by not doing anything defensive.

ITS NOT A ONE TRICK PONY IF IT CAN BE SPAMMED. Get that into your head. Stealth only has a 3 seconds cooldown because of the debuff (if it works which it does not always). Thieves have so many way to go into stealth they simply reopen whenever they want again, or get away, or do whatever the hell they want.

Hasted Pistolwhip, that's a one trick pony because haste has a minute cooldown. Backstab doesn't.

Edited by AetherMcLoud, 28 October 2012 - 02:49 AM.

[Red_Falcon]

AetherMcLoud, on 28 October 2012 - 02:48 AM, said:

ITS NOT A ONE TRICK PONY IF IT CAN BE SPAMMED. Get that into your head. Stealth only has a 3 seconds cooldown because of the debuff (if it works which it does not always). Thieves have so many way to go into stealth they simply reopen whenever they want again, or get away, or do whatever the hell they want.

Hasted Pistolwhip, that's a one trick pony because haste has a minute cooldown. Backstab doesn't.

And in those 3 seconds what do you do instad of 3shotting the thief? Spam fireball?
And when the thief stealths to backstab you what do you do instead of popping arcane shield or knocking him down/away? Turn and stick a big target on your back?

Against D/D Eles with a clue of what they do I last 2 sec.
They charge in with 15 stacks of might, protection, regen and whatnot -> knockdown -> boom! I'm down.
If I touch them I'm chilled or stunned and hit for crap on their Protection.
If I pop my oh-shi stealths they either updraft / ring / arc blast / breath / froz burst.
If I try stuns they pop armor of earth and laugh.
If I try burst, arcane shield, mist and I hit for 0.

At this point I should act like yo right? run to the forums and squeal OP OP OP!
No, they are good players using the class properly. All power to them.

I know a very good Mexican Ele who can teach you, PM El Toopee in game.

[Varun]

Red_Falcon, on 28 October 2012 - 12:24 PM, said:

<br />
And in those 3 seconds what do you do instad of 3shotting the thief? Spam fireball?<br />
And when the thief stealths to backstab you what do you do instead of popping arcane shield or knocking him down/away? Turn and stick a big target on your back?<br />
<br />
Against D/D Eles with a clue of what they do I last 2 sec.<br />
They charge in with 15 stacks of might, protection, regen and whatnot -&gt; knockdown -&gt; boom! I&#39;m down.<br />
If I touch them I&#39;m chilled or stunned and hit for crap on their Protection.<br />
If I pop my oh-shi stealths they either updraft / ring / arc blast / breath / froz burst.<br />
If I try stuns they pop armor of earth and laugh.<br />
If I try burst, arcane shield, mist and I hit for 0.<br />
<br />
At this point I should act like yo right? run to the forums and squeal OP OP OP!<br />
No, they are good players using the class properly. All power to them.<br />
<br />
I know a very good Mexican Ele who can teach you, PM El Toopee in game.<br />

First off, D/D is probably one of the worst Ele positions out there: it doesn't have the burst of S/D nor the tankiness of S or D/F or support staff. It does have far more mobility.

1) How does the ele get 15 stacks of might? For 6 stacks of might he can use sigil of battle two times which has a 9 seconds internal cooldown, so he'd need to prepare that for 9 seconds in advance.
For the rest of the stacks of mights he'd need to use both blast finishers in a fire field and might stacking several spells (together with armor runes that increase might duration, or they'll fall off too quick) to get those 15 stacks.
In other words: it isn't exactly feasilble for a D/D to get 15 stacks of might unless he is a pure glasscannon build or is supported by a whole team (which can go for any other class as well).

2) Hit them and you are are chilled: they switched to water and use frost aura (40 sec cooldown, 7s duration) and switch to earth right after (5 sec protection with 15 points in arcane) which has a 10 sec cooldown afterward.

3) ring has been used for blast finisher for might, it also does not get you out of stealth, updraft doesn't get you out of stealth either, nor does frozen burst. Stealth is not broken by damage, FYI.

4) Arcane shield blocks 3 attacks on a 75s cooldown, mistform is on a 75s cooldown and doesn't work against conditions applied before.


All this is put against a thief with very short cooldowns on stealth and extremely high spammable burst., if you can't beat an ele with those CD's on their stuff and all the massive damage and avoidance available to you, it's really because of you.

I didn't even mention the amount of buttons we need to press to just counter your burst according to your hypothetical situation, a rough estimate would be 10 abilities + several combo fields (without using anything other that the stuff you have listed) with a decent cooldown between all of them, just to counter you. While still being unfeasible in reality.


I only know that when I go full out support (toughness, healing power, vit) with crazy condition removal, the only class that can still take down 50% or more of my health in one burst is the thief, no others even come close. FYI, I can't kill jack shit either with a full support build.

Edited by Varun, 28 October 2012 - 10:38 PM.

[Red_Falcon]

That's nice theory there, yet the Ele forum is filled with many D/D ele running with 18+ stacks of might.
Let alone those unkillable Ele bunker builds that Anet said "are being looked at very closely".

Perhaps realize that there are some good Eles around who can pull off monster kills and are being looked from Anet, but you're clearly not one of them.
You're still far away from the reaching the skillcap of your class.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 29 October 2012 - 12:27 AM.

[MrForz]

Ooooh, now it's a battle to find out who's the incompetent one!

[Wifflebottom]

You thieves realize that your class is incredibly easy to play and by playing it and destroying these so-called noobs doesn't make you special or more skilled than them in any way. Your class is easy to play and overpowered as hell stop being ignorant and admit it already.

[Asomal]

Mr_Original, on 29 October 2012 - 12:42 AM, said:

You thieves realize that your class is incredibly easy to play and by playing it and destroying these so-called noobs doesn't make you special or more skilled than them in any way. Your class is easy to play and overpowered as hell stop being ignorant and admit it already.

And who in this topic have made such statement? Oh right, you are pulling it out of your silly mind! And please stop with this "easy to play" nonsense. I can say that I have a hard time playing a thief while an elementalist is super easy and you wouldn't be able to prove me wrong.

Funny fact: I play a blinding/stealth build (no super crits backstabs) on my thief and 90% of my deaths are for Mesmers / Guardians. Should I start opening topics on these sections asking for nerfs?

Edited by Asomal, 29 October 2012 - 01:12 AM.

[Wifflebottom]

Asomal, on 29 October 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

And who in this topic have made such statement? Oh right, you are pulling it out of your silly mind! And please stop with this "easy to play" nonsense. I can say that I have a hard time playing a thief while an elementalist is super easy and you wouldn't be able to prove me wrong.

Funny fact: I play a blinding/stealth build (no super crits backstabs) on my thief and 90% of my deaths are for Mesmers / Guardians. Should I start opening topics on these sections asking for nerfs?

That statement was more directed towards the people who say players who have a hard time with thieves and complain about stealthspam are noobs. That is arrogance and shows these thieves believe  that they're better players which cannot be proven, especially when the builds in question are stealth backstab spam. Stealth skills in this game is broken and a thief shouldn't be allowed to be invisible 90% of a fight. Sorry but if your having a hard time as a hard time with a thief  you're doing it wrong, I've played one for lolz and did fantastic with minimal effort. If you find playing Ele super easywin then your such a phenomenal player, gosh I'm jelly (is that what you wanted to hear?)

[Red_Falcon]

Mr_Original, on 29 October 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

That statement was more directed towards the people who say players who have a hard time with thieves and complain about stealthspam are noobs. That is arrogance and shows these thieves believe  that they're better players which cannot be proven, especially when the builds in question are stealth backstab spam. Stealth skills in this game is broken and a thief shouldn't be allowed to be invisible 90% of a fight. Sorry but if your having a hard time as a hard time with a thief  you're doing it wrong, I've played one for lolz and did fantastic with minimal effort. If you find playing Ele super easywin then your such a phenomenal player, gosh I'm jelly (is that what you wanted to hear?)

I'll be honest to you and tell you the whole story.

Thief is my third class.
I PvP'd a lot more on Warrior and Guardian than Thief, and I actually found thieves the easiest classes to beat by a large degree.
It is a really, really easy matter of popping -one- button to nullify all the damage of the thief, and then kill him in 3 blows.
I just wish I could counter all other classes this easily.
My gf also finds Thieves the easiest to counter on her Ele unless the thief gets the jump completely by surprise while she's busy with others.

I'm not sure what's the problem with pressing that one button (that all classes get, in various forms) and then press those 3 skills to kill the thief.
I'm pretty sure I'm no PvP wizard, if I can kill thieves easily why can't some people here?
I mean, all a thief has is a 3k+3k opener (if you don't dodge) and then always the same freakin' move, backstab - no surprises here - which you can nullify in many ways, from control to anti-bursts.
Then he's visible for 3s = dead thief.

In the higher ranks I ensure you for a thief it's a big uphill struggle where 15 buttons are barely enough to get a lucky kill - because people exactly know what you're going to do and react accordingly.

I cannot find a reason of why one would not pop a damn CD after the thief opens and just stands there getting mauled, what have you been playing before GW2? Turn-based games where you get all the time to think your moves?
I'm puzzled.

Edited by Red_Falcon, 29 October 2012 - 04:03 AM.

[Wifflebottom]

Red_Falcon, on 29 October 2012 - 04:01 AM, said:

I'll be honest to you and tell you the whole story.

Thief is my third class.
I PvP'd a lot more on Warrior and Guardian than Thief, and I actually found thieves the easiest classes to beat by a large degree.
It is a really, really easy matter of popping -one- button to nullify all the damage of the thief, and then kill him in 3 blows.
I just wish I could counter all other classes this easily.
My gf also finds Thieves the easiest to counter on her Ele unless the thief gets the jump completely by surprise while she's busy with others.

I'm not sure what's the problem with pressing that one button (that all classes get, in various forms) and then press those 3 skills to kill the thief.
I'm pretty sure I'm no PvP wizard, if I can kill thieves easily why can't some people here?
I mean, all a thief has is a 3k+3k opener (if you don't dodge) and then always the same freakin' move, backstab - no surprises here - which you can nullify in many ways, from control to anti-bursts.
Then he's visible for 3s = dead thief.

In the higher ranks I ensure you for a thief it's a big uphill struggle where 15 buttons are barely enough to get a lucky kill - because people exactly know what you're going to do and react accordingly.

I cannot find a reason of why one would not pop a damn CD after the thief opens and just stands there getting mauled, what have you been playing before GW2? Turn-based games where you get all the time to think your moves?
I'm puzzled.

No no, you're misunderstanding me. I'm not sitting in their opener unless my dodge or stunbreaks are on CD. So no they don't kill me often, but I also can't kill them because they always just pop back into stealth and run away. The problem is that they can enter stealth SO many ways and it lasts a decent time. So no I can't just go kill something that's invisible, unless I'm just supposed to just guess where they are and waste CDs hoping I hit them? If that's how it works then that still seems very unbalanced. Also not every class can kill a thief in 3 blows your just used to playing glass cannon warriors I assume.

[Shatteredz]

Mr_Original, on 29 October 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

No no, you're misunderstanding me. I'm not sitting in their opener unless my dodge or stunbreaks are on CD. So no they don't kill me often, but I also can't kill them because they always just pop back into stealth and run away. The problem is that they can enter stealth SO many ways and it lasts a decent time. So no I can't just go kill something that's invisible, unless I'm just supposed to just guess where they are and waste CDs hoping I hit them? If that's how it works then that still seems very unbalanced. Also not every class can kill a thief in 3 blows your just used to playing glass cannon warriors I assume.

Try immobolize, CC or conditions. backstab thieves probably only have 1 condition removal, on a 30 second cooldown. If you manange to immoboilze/CC them for a few seconds you can already down them if they are full glasscannon

[Varun]

Red_Falcon, on 29 October 2012 - 12:26 AM, said:

That's nice theory there, yet the Ele forum is filled with many D/D ele running with 18+ stacks of might.
Let alone those unkillable Ele bunker builds that Anet said "are being looked at very closely".

Perhaps realize that there are some good Eles around who can pull off monster kills and are being looked from Anet, but you're clearly not one of them.
You're still far away from the reaching the skillcap of your class.

Calling out the skill of forum member whom you have never seen playing is ridiculous in the first place.

Obviously I know my class better than you, as you don't even play an ele. Running around with 18 stacks of might is not something you just *do* solo whenever you see a thief.

Your theory is just piling up the defensive skills of an ele without having any real idea how they're used and what the cooldown on those are.

If you have proof that the Ele forum is "filled with D/D eles running 18+ stacks of might" and unkillable bunker builds that obviously own thiefs, provide that proof.
The burden is with the one making the ourageous claims.

Edited by Varun, 29 October 2012 - 11:05 AM.

[Red_Falcon]

Mr_Original, on 29 October 2012 - 05:17 AM, said:

No no, you're misunderstanding me. I'm not sitting in their opener unless my dodge or stunbreaks are on CD. So no they don't kill me often, but I also can't kill them because they always just pop back into stealth and run away. The problem is that they can enter stealth SO many ways and it lasts a decent time. So no I can't just go kill something that's invisible, unless I'm just supposed to just guess where they are and waste CDs hoping I hit them? If that's how it works then that still seems very unbalanced. Also not every class can kill a thief in 3 blows your just used to playing glass cannon warriors I assume.

You don't need to see them to kill them, damage still applies on stealthed characters.
Simply swing or AoE, they're still taking damage.
You can easily hit for more than half their health in the time they're unstealthed, then finish them off when they re-stealth.

Varun, on 29 October 2012 - 09:35 AM, said:

Calling out the skill of forum member whom you have never seen playing is ridiculous in the first place.

Obviously I know my class better than you, as you don't even play an ele. Running around with 18 stacks of might is not something you just *do* solo whenever you see a thief.

Your theory is just piling up the defensive skills of an ele without having any real idea how they're used and what the cooldown on those are.

If you have proof that the Ele forum is "filled with D/D eles running 18+ stacks of might" and unkillable bunker builds that obviously own thiefs, provide that proof.
The burden is with the one making the ourageous claims.

I'm not a charity service for bad eles: you got a dev tracker to check Anet posts and you can read the official ele forums as well.
There are also a ton of videos on YT of D/D eles facerolling thieves to the ground.
If you want to stop being a bad ele you better start watching and reading, crying on the forums won't improve your skills.

[Andlát]

After some practice against my thief friends with my necromancer, I became quite good at countering them. I must say that I win most of my 1 v 1 encounters vs thieves. This might be because of the AoE DoT nature of my build, but I do well with my experimental power builds as well.

My only problem against thieves is in WvW, but this is due to the rendering issues that A-net has to resolve, which makes them almost permanently invisible.

My opinion is that they are not overpowered and can be countered with smart play, but are a counter to glass cannon builds, just like guardians to DD builds, water specced eles to condition builds etc.

Edited by Andlát, 29 October 2012 - 12:57 PM.

[redslion]

Hey, if I get killed by a guardian... well, it happens.

But if I get killed by someone who dances and spins (OMG it SPINS! Then there's someone whining about us engineers not being connected with the lore? How in the world is spinning connected with the lore?), I'm really gonna remember that. So ugly. So anime-like.

Seriously, how can you play a class that dances and spins?

[Dark]

I got cancer from that post.

[Varun]

Red_Falcon, on 29 October 2012 - 12:14 PM, said:

I'm not a charity service for bad eles: you got a dev tracker to check Anet posts and you can read the official ele forums as well.
There are also a ton of videos on YT of D/D eles facerolling thieves to the ground.
If you want to stop being a bad ele you better start watching and reading, crying on the forums won't improve your skills.

Don't you just love ad hominem?

Well anyhow, I'm done with this idiocy, I'm really not looking for appreciation from some random forum dude. If you don't have any real arguments to give instead of insults, then there really is nothing to argue about.

Thiefs will get toned down, it's a cycle you see in any game with stealth classes that can do this kind of uncounterable burst, even to tank classes. Not to mention also possessing potent aoe's, defense and selfhealing.

Edited by Varun, 30 October 2012 - 12:14 AM.

[Shatteredz]

Varun, on 30 October 2012 - 12:13 AM, said:

Don't you just love ad hominem?

Well anyhow, I'm done with this idiocy, I'm really not looking for appreciation from some random forum dude. If you don't have any real arguments to give instead of insults, then there really is nothing to argue about.

Thiefs will get toned down, it's a cycle you see in any game with stealth classes that can do this kind of uncounterable burst, even to tank classes. Not to mention also possessing potent aoe's, defense and selfhealing.

People in tpvp manange to do just fine, its the scrubs and noobs in spvp that cant counter it and come here.

[Red_Falcon]

Shatteredz, on 30 October 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

People in tpvp manange to do just fine, its the scrubs and noobs in spvp that cant counter it and come here.

Exactly.

Andlát, on 29 October 2012 - 12:55 PM, said:

After some practice against my thief friends with my necromancer, I became quite good at countering them. I must say that I win most of my 1 v 1 encounters vs thieves.

[hotjoin sPvP noob response]
What kind of wizardry is that???
The class that's deemed the most UP owning the one deemed the most OP most of the time???
You must be using cheats, hacks, bots, exploits AND obviously paid the devs to give you speshal powerz.
I-I mean, w-what other explanation there could be?
[/hotjoin sPvP noob response]

[oxmox]

What I noticed is that some player have of course a different performance in pvping and maybe a different taste of how pvp should look like, but also have a different knowledge playing actually the classes ingame to see the current state of pvp and the allegedly imbalance or not.

The game offers:

8 classes with two main options: defensive and offensive = 16 possibilities



This means you need at least try these 16 options with a proper build to see and compare balance ingame. The problem is that some players only play certain classes with certain builds and actually cant follow others with their view and expirience ingame.

Edited by oxmox, 30 October 2012 - 11:40 AM.

[Barbieslayer]

Shield stance cool down should be reduced to 3 seconds. It would be funny to see all these leet thieves QQing...

[Shatteredz]

oxmox, on 30 October 2012 - 11:40 AM, said:

What I noticed is that some player have of course a different performance in pvping and maybe a different taste of how pvp should look like, but also have a different knowledge playing actually the classes ingame to see the current state of pvp and the allegedly imbalance or not.

The game offers:

8 classes with two main options: defensive and offensive = 16 possibilities



This means you need at least try these 16 options with a proper build to see and compare balance ingame. The problem is that some players only play certain classes with certain builds and actually cant follow others with their view and expirience ingame.

Actually, you can go offensive with power or a condition build, making 24 options you have to play before you got a good understanding of every class and its possibility's

[Varun]

Shatteredz, on 30 October 2012 - 12:34 AM, said:

People in tpvp manange to do just fine, its the scrubs and noobs in spvp that cant counter it and come here.

I play WvW, I don't really care about structured in any form. If you say that the burst, survivability, aoe and stealth spam packed into one class together with the rendering issues are fine, well...

[oxmox]

Shatteredz, on 30 October 2012 - 12:27 PM, said:

Actually, you can go offensive with power or a condition build, making 24 options you have to play before you got a good understanding of every class and its possibility's

Well thats how you build it, but the main option is still defensive or offensive. For difference builds there are a lot more possibilities than only 24. And at the end its questionable if you go with a pure offensive condition build for certain classes, since  the dmg difference can be minimal, its question about HP or Toughness probably (Jewels). But nevermind , the 16 options is already enough and I bet a lot didnt play it to compare their performance ingame.

Edited by oxmox, 30 October 2012 - 01:11 PM.

[Shatteredz]

Varun, on 30 October 2012 - 12:47 PM, said:

I play WvW, I don't really care about structured in any form. If you say that the burst, survivability, aoe and stealth spam packed into one class together with the rendering issues are fine, well...

You wanna balance a game around a mode where AOE nukes own everything, more or less, along with very random factors such as siege weapons, the players(from scrubs following the commander icon to a well organised guild on ts) ect. I agree WvW is fun, but balancing around that would require Anet to give every class a huge amount of AOE ranged attacks, because those simply shine in WvW(putting aside camp assault and ox defending/assaulting).

And please, give anet the time to fix that rendering issue. Or else we gonna he have "balanced class" that suddenly gets total crap after the rendering bug gets fixed.

[Typhoris]

Shatteredz, on 30 October 2012 - 05:56 PM, said:

You wanna balance a game around a mode where AOE nukes own everything, more or less, along with very random factors such as siege weapons, the players(from scrubs following the commander icon to a well organised guild on ts) ect. I agree WvW is fun, but balancing around that would require Anet to give every class a huge amount of AOE ranged attacks, because those simply shine in WvW(putting aside camp assault and ox defending/assaulting).

And please, give anet the time to fix that rendering issue. Or else we gonna he have "balanced class" that suddenly gets total crap after the rendering bug gets fixed.

What is this aoe nuke you speak of because I don't see a class that can do it

[MrForz]

Anything. Elementalist attacks, Engineer grenades or Elixir U fueled coated bullets, stuff like that. Every little bit counts in WvW. It's cool if you can terminate one target, but it's even better if you terminate him and severly damage/weaken two or 3 other targets around.

Edited by MrForz, 30 October 2012 - 07:49 PM.

[Briar]

Then there are people like me. Who play thief but do not like playing melee; and thus are gimped

[Shatteredz]

Typhoris, on 30 October 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

What is this aoe nuke you speak of because I don't see a class that can do it

With AoE nukes i mean AoE attacks that do alot of damage in a short time window, like clusterbomb.

[dynia666]

thiefs is not op just noobs ppls fight vs them

its funny how guardian can own thief easy ^^

Go QQ about guardian is too strong pls or memsers, thiefs is just fine leave them be an move along