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Scepter/focus + GS synergy with no Dueling points build?

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#1 dragonphlu

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 04:24 AM

I've been playing around with each main hand/two-hand weapons and while the scepter got a tiny buff, I wish it could have some more AoE potential to match up with the others. I admit that I haven't spend much time with the scepter (other than unlocking the skills) and I wanted to see if it has synergy with the focus and greatsword, specifically. Also, I've been wanting to give a power build a try.

Lately, I'm in love with the focus and want to have Warden's Feedback. Checking around the forums, I've heard that scepter is only good with condition builds, though I am curious if it can work in power builds.

I'm at 78 now and was going for a 0/20/0/20/30 with Illusionary Persona. This was when I was using MH sword/focus and staff. However, I much prefer fighting in range and rather keep my foes somewhat away from me. I say 'somewhat', because I don't mind if they are near me (close enough so that IP can proc with me included in the shatter).

Anyways, I like several of the major traits in Domination and I was wondering if anyone of you had success with using a 20/0/0/20/30 build setup with scepter/focus + greatsword? I know I'll lose several great Dueling traits (Critical Infusion, Phantasmal Fury, Sharper Images, and Deceptive Evasion), but perhaps it can make up with some other traits in Domination?

As for utility skills, are there any that provide better usage for power builds? Having at least 1 glamour skill is nice to have for another combo field (besides Temporal Curtain). I love Decoy, but I wonder if it's too redundant since both GS and scepter can make lots of clones. Would Phantasmal Defender/Disenchanter, mantras, manipulations, or any of the signets be useful?

I know I asked a lot, but I never tried using a power build before.

Edit: Oops, wrong weapons on link. >.<

Edited by dragonphlu, 25 October 2012 - 04:31 AM.


#2 Sinnacle

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:45 AM

View Postdragonphlu, on 25 October 2012 - 04:24 AM, said:

I've been playing around with each main hand/two-hand weapons and while the scepter got a tiny buff, I wish it could have some more AoE potential to match up with the others. I admit that I haven't spend much time with the scepter (other than unlocking the skills) and I wanted to see if it has synergy with the focus and greatsword, specifically. Also, I've been wanting to give a power build a try.

Lately, I'm in love with the focus and want to have Warden's Feedback. Checking around the forums, I've heard that scepter is only good with condition builds, though I am curious if it can work in power builds.

I'm at 78 now and was going for a 0/20/0/20/30 with Illusionary Persona. This was when I was using MH sword/focus and staff. However, I much prefer fighting in range and rather keep my foes somewhat away from me. I say 'somewhat', because I don't mind if they are near me (close enough so that IP can proc with me included in the shatter).

Anyways, I like several of the major traits in Domination and I was wondering if anyone of you had success with using a 20/0/0/20/30 build setup with scepter/focus + greatsword? I know I'll lose several great Dueling traits (Critical Infusion, Phantasmal Fury, Sharper Images, and Deceptive Evasion), but perhaps it can make up with some other traits in Domination?

As for utility skills, are there any that provide better usage for power builds? Having at least 1 glamour skill is nice to have for another combo field (besides Temporal Curtain). I love Decoy, but I wonder if it's too redundant since both GS and scepter can make lots of clones. Would Phantasmal Defender/Disenchanter, mantras, manipulations, or any of the signets be useful?

I know I asked a lot, but I never tried using a power build before.

Edit: Oops, wrong weapons on link. >.<

looking at your link your still condition specced. o.O

your just not specced for bleeds so your condition damage will be coming from Confusion.  if your going 20 in the power line and 20 inspiration  which is vitality which also doesnt transfer to illusions and has some condition damage traits and 30 in illusions which is the condition damage line.

I would say that your spec is still condition damage just not bleeds.

Edited by Sinnacle, 25 October 2012 - 07:46 AM.


#3 CepaCepa

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:06 AM

If you're putting 30 into illusions and especially if you're taking IP, not going at least 20 points into dueling is quite a bit of loss. :( If you're trying to make a build without having to take dueling, I'd imagine domination/chaos/inspiration would work better. If you're just wondering whether if 20 domination or 20 dueling suits the 30 points in illusions better, I'd say dueling. :) Domination has some nice major traits especially if you're using Greatsword, but the minors don't compare to dueling at all.

#4 dragonphlu

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 08:32 AM

View PostSinnacle, on 25 October 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

looking at your link your still condition specced. o.O

your just not specced for bleeds so your condition damage will be coming from Confusion.  if your going 20 in the power line and 20 inspiration  which is vitality which also doesnt transfer to illusions and has some condition damage traits and 30 in illusions which is the condition damage line.

I would say that your spec is still condition damage just not bleeds.

Yes, that build is what I currently have and with MH sword/focus + staff. What I like to know is can I use scepter/focus + GS in a power build or does it have to be condition build due to the scepter's nature? If I want to go power build, what weapons and trait setup usually go well? Since Illusion trait gives condition damage, I assume that to go power build, I should not invest in any points in Illusion?

View PostCepaCepa, on 25 October 2012 - 08:06 AM, said:

If you're putting 30 into illusions and especially if you're taking IP, not going at least 20 points into dueling is quite a bit of loss. :( If you're trying to make a build without having to take dueling, I'd imagine domination/chaos/inspiration would work better. If you're just wondering whether if 20 domination or 20 dueling suits the 30 points in illusions better, I'd say dueling. :) Domination has some nice major traits especially if you're using Greatsword, but the minors don't compare to dueling at all.

I do admit that if I go Domination instead of Dueling, I'll miss several good traits. If I go scepter/focus + greatsword, would that work better with Dueling or Domination? This is the dilemma part that I'm having since I want to keep Warden's Feedback, but trying to see if I can get also Greatsword Training. Or is that weapon set combo not good synergy and I'll have to use a different weapon?

#5 Maxtofunator

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 02:41 PM

View Postdragonphlu, on 25 October 2012 - 08:32 AM, said:

Yes, that build is what I currently have and with MH sword/focus + staff. What I like to know is can I use scepter/focus + GS in a power build or does it have to be condition build due to the scepter's nature? If I want to go power build, what weapons and trait setup usually go well? Since Illusion trait gives condition damage, I assume that to go power build, I should not invest in any points in Illusion?


The best power weapons are sword/pistol or focus, staff [due to iwarlock doing more base damage based off of power], and then the greatsword obviously. But going illusion for IP is actually a really strong idea on my builds becuase that gives you the ability to have 4 shatters at once, or shatter to gain distortion or daze your target without the need of having an illusion out, which I guess won't be as big of a problem while you have your scepter out, but you could shatter them prior. I would say you should be able to get a good power build going, I just haven't tested the actual damage of a scepter yet, though soon I am going to work on getting one of the dungeon scepters to try it out with my build

#6 dragonphlu

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 05:41 PM

After tweaking my build around a bit and trying it out on golem dummies, this is what I've come up with:

http://gw2skills.net...bZ3ytlcrVCDImDA

Only 4 conditions - confusion, vulnerability, cripple (Crippling Dissipation), and blind (Counterspell) - but it also grants might, vigor, retaliation (Confusing Cry), and regeneration (the range is nearby). I shatter often so I thought perhaps Signet of Illusions would benefit since it'll give me another round of shattering (the passive effect is a bonus). This build also gives faster cooldown for focus and greatsword. I noticed that the scepter is a short-mid range weapon which gives enough distance that I, myself, can be included with IP shatter while still leaving a distance between me and my target.

I have soldier's jewels (the link left gave 1 cleric jewel for a little extra heal) and use rune of fighter to give me extra power and toughness and the 6th rune gives me might when I heal. Any of the utilities can be swapped out and Moa Morph could replace Time Warp. I'm also Asura so any of the racial skills could also be included.

What do you guys think? I know it's not a pure power build, but perhaps it's a hybrid build? Any suggestions?

Edited by dragonphlu, 25 October 2012 - 05:42 PM.


#7 CepaCepa

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 07:49 PM

Since it's not a pure power build, I'd say maybe other weapons would be better for you compared to Greatsword. Because that way you can free up a major trait for 20% mind wrack damage, which arguably with your build, is where the big damage comes from. You may want to use staff instead, simply because iWarlock has relatively short CD compared to other phantasms, and phase retreat is on 8 second CD. Main hand sword allows you to be effective at melee range (since you'd want to stay nearby for IP), but it is not the best at producing clones. GS on the other hand is good damage itself, but arguably without precision and crit damage it's not much better than staff, and Spatial Surge encourages you to stand far from the enemy, which you wouldn't want to do. Taking both Greatsword training + elasticity somewhat solves the problem since a frequent mirror blade at close range makes up for the damage loss on spatial surge, but that is 2 major slots that you've handed out to a weapon that you'd likely not always stay in anyways, 2 major slots that otherwise can be buffing your shatters. Due to not taking dueling, your clone generation will be of concern, hence you'd like to stay in scepter for much of your time just for the clone generation, which somewhat makes it not worth it to spend too much trait points for the other weapon.

And I do suggest to put mirror image into your utility, at least some times. For example, when you know that a particular boss doesn't do burning and doesn't do poison, you can take mirror image instead of null field. It's an extra stun breaker, and more importantly, instant 2 clones is gold for shatter builds, especially if you don't have points in dueling. :)

Edited by CepaCepa, 25 October 2012 - 07:53 PM.


#8 dragonphlu

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 09:54 PM

View PostCepaCepa, on 25 October 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

Since it's not a pure power build, I'd say maybe other weapons would be better for you compared to Greatsword. Because that way you can free up a major trait for 20% mind wrack damage, which arguably with your build, is where the big damage comes from. You may want to use staff instead, simply because iWarlock has relatively short CD compared to other phantasms, and phase retreat is on 8 second CD. Main hand sword allows you to be effective at melee range (since you'd want to stay nearby for IP), but it is not the best at producing clones. GS on the other hand is good damage itself, but arguably without precision and crit damage it's not much better than staff, and Spatial Surge encourages you to stand far from the enemy, which you wouldn't want to do. Taking both Greatsword training + elasticity somewhat solves the problem since a frequent mirror blade at close range makes up for the damage loss on spatial surge, but that is 2 major slots that you've handed out to a weapon that you'd likely not always stay in anyways, 2 major slots that otherwise can be buffing your shatters. Due to not taking dueling, your clone generation will be of concern, hence you'd like to stay in scepter for much of your time just for the clone generation, which somewhat makes it not worth it to spend too much trait points for the other weapon.

And I do suggest to put mirror image into your utility, at least some times. For example, when you know that a particular boss doesn't do burning and doesn't do poison, you can take mirror image instead of null field. It's an extra stun breaker, and more importantly, instant 2 clones is gold for shatter builds, especially if you don't have points in dueling. :)

I do see your valid points on why greatsword may not be the best choice for the build. And yeah, I wanted to stay in scepter/focus most of the time. So it's either staff or MH sword that would prove better. Since the scepter's velocity got buff, it's possible that it could try tagging a little in DE (but it's single targeted, I know), but that's why creating the clones and shatter right away would help with the tagging. I've read that staff and MH sword can tag fine.

And you're right about bringing Mirror Images, I was so used to Deceptive Evasion. I may swap out Signet of Illusions for something else; maybe Phantasmal Defender/Disenchanter or a glamour. I agree that Mental Torment would help boost Mind Wrack. I'm not sure if I'll keep Illusionary Elasticity, especially if I went with MH sword (unless I use pistol), but I wonder if Compounding Power would be beneficial?

If I go MH sword, would pistol or OH sword be more beneficial? The pistol will give me a dps and control/combo finisher while OH sword gives me a block/clone and a dps/combo finisher.

Edited by dragonphlu, 25 October 2012 - 10:02 PM.


#9 CepaCepa

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:26 PM

View Postdragonphlu, on 25 October 2012 - 09:54 PM, said:

I do see your valid points on why greatsword may not be the best choice for the build. And yeah, I wanted to stay in scepter/focus most of the time. So it's either staff or MH sword that would prove better. Since the scepter's velocity got buff, it's possible that it could try tagging a little in DE (but it's single targeted, I know), but that's why creating the clones and shatter right away would help with the tagging. I've read that staff and MH sword can tag fine.

And you're right about bringing Mirror Images, I was so used to Deceptive Evasion. I may swap out Signet of Illusions for something else; maybe Phantasmal Defender/Disenchanter or a glamour. I agree that Mental Torment would help boost Mind Wrack. I'm not sure if I'll keep Illusionary Elasticity, especially if I went with MH sword (unless I use pistol), but I wonder if Compounding Power would be beneficial?

If I go MH sword, would pistol or OH sword be more beneficial? The pistol will give me a dps and control/combo finisher while OH sword gives me a block/clone and a dps/combo finisher.

For DE tagging in Zergs, if you'd like to tag with shatter, it's gotta be melee range + mirror image + another clone generating skill + mind wrack right away. Even though scepter speed got a buff, it's still way too slow to wait for the third hit to generate a clone, because mobs dies within 1-3 seconds to zergs. I'd say if you're in a Zerg, you might as well switch to Sword for tagging,

Illusionary Elasticity would still be useful for Staff, it doubles the damage of wind of chaos on a single mob (mob -you-mob) if you're in close range of the mob already. However, you have some other options too: Like you said, Compounding Power is quite nice and it gets counted into your shatter damage. 10% mind wrack crit chance is probably not as good as Compounding Power for you, since you are not taking +crit damage. If you're using mainhand sword and offhand pistol, pistol 5 has too long of a CD to make good use of illusionary elasticity, so I'd say Compounding Power is still better. :)

If you're using Sword, I'd say it's really your choice whether to use sword offhand or pistol. Both have hard-hitting phantasms, both have controls (Sword #4 2nd hit = dazing bolt), Sword offhand has a chance at generating a clone/blocking an attack, but pistol has aoe control that is more reliable. I don't think the difference is big, but I would think that pistol would probably suit the overall style better (that is, shatter + support, and mid-ranged fighting).

#10 dragonphlu

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Posted 25 October 2012 - 10:45 PM

View PostCepaCepa, on 25 October 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

For DE tagging in Zergs, if you'd like to tag with shatter, it's gotta be melee range + mirror image + another clone generating skill + mind wrack right away. Even though scepter speed got a buff, it's still way too slow to wait for the third hit to generate a clone, because mobs dies within 1-3 seconds to zergs. I'd say if you're in a Zerg, you might as well switch to Sword for tagging,

Illusionary Elasticity would still be useful for Staff, it doubles the damage of wind of chaos on a single mob (mob -you-mob) if you're in close range of the mob already. However, you have some other options too: Like you said, Compounding Power is quite nice and it gets counted into your shatter damage. 10% mind wrack crit chance is probably not as good as Compounding Power for you, since you are not taking +crit damage. If you're using mainhand sword and offhand pistol, pistol 5 has too long of a CD to make good use of illusionary elasticity, so I'd say Compounding Power is still better. :)

If you're using Sword, I'd say it's really your choice whether to use sword offhand or pistol. Both have hard-hitting phantasms, both have controls (Sword #4 2nd hit = dazing bolt), Sword offhand has a chance at generating a clone/blocking an attack, but pistol has aoe control that is more reliable. I don't think the difference is big, but I would think that pistol would probably suit the overall style better (that is, shatter + support, and mid-ranged fighting).

I didn't know Compounding Power affects shatter damage! So it's 3-12% increase damage with IP if I use Mind Wrack? Sweet! I think you're also right about the pistol being more overall style and I like having some controls. Plus, the stun/daze from Magic Bullet triggers the two minor Domination traits and I can let iDuelist unload once and then shatter without much problem (same with iWarden).

I think this is the finalize build: http://gw2skills.net...3ytlcrVCDI2QMHA

The Null Field is just a filler and can be swapped out from time to time.

Thanks very much, Cepa, for the suggestions and giving advices!

And also thanks to everyone for helping me with this build! I can say that this build is much better than my previous build that uses staff + dual-swords (it didn't sync well).





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