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Why are people qqing because they are ignorant? (Thief)

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#1 rusticgamer

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 07:48 AM

Ok my question is stated above... Everybody are QQing because of thiefs being OP, or so they say... These poeple by all means are truthfully ignorant to this profession and do not even want  to find out more about it.

They have a severe lack of knowledge and instead of trying to roll a thief they cry about them being OP  and that it is a "noobkiller' class and so on.

I created this topic with the honest hope that some of you people (or idiots -> if you are one of those guys that I described) will take my arguments into consideration.

1st of all... If you take some builds from other players, sites and so on do not complain about you getting owned in PvP or even PvE. You have to understand that if you wish to play a class well, YOU have to CREATE a build for it that FITS your NECESSITIES and not just copy-paste  someone else's build.

2nd of all... Let me tell you something a thief is not that hard to kill AND every single problem you have with them (AoE, Elites, etc.) can be dealt with IF you have the proper knowledge. There are A LOT of ways to not get damamge (or at least BURST damamge; if by all means you are truthfully unskilled). A lot of players that I have played against have discovered quite unique ways to not let me hit them or to at least take some damage and rend my stealth useless.

3rd and last... Before crying like a stupd person on the forum when you don't even have the proper knowledge about something at least take an interest in that thing. DON'T EXPECT SOMEONE TO JUST COME WITH AN ANSWER FOR YOU, WHILE YOU SIT ON YOUR CHAIR CONFORTABLY AND DO NOTHING. And by the way for the arguments that might come such as : " I don't have enough time to get information." let me tell you something... I don't have time to get my legendary, but I don't write stupid topics that Legendaries take way too much time to get. NO! I deal with it. You deal with it too. Inform or accept your situation.

In GW1 everybody said that the Assassin sucks in JQ or FA, yet based on necessity I created a build that ruled there and won many games with it :). If someone tells you that it sucks or is a noob profession don't take it for granted. Go find a solution yourself and don't post it on sites on such, just make sure to try make everybody understand that you don't have to be the same as everybody, think freely, THINK!

Edited by rusticgamer, 26 October 2012 - 07:54 AM.


#2 mydixienormus

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 08:41 AM

View Postrusticgamer, on 26 October 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

Ok my question is stated above... Everybody are QQing because of thiefs being OP, or so they say... These poeple by all means are truthfully ignorant to this profession and do not even want  to find out more about it.

hot join spvp is 50% thieves or more.  these so called "ignorant" people have already "found out more" and have decided to play them instead of their "weak" main.

and when i say "found out more," i mean, they have discovered how overpowered thieves are.

mesmer burst is just as stupid, as is their ability to get away if they want to.


elite
burst chain
win

somehow losing? run away, nothing can stop you


View Postrusticgamer, on 26 October 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

There are A LOT of ways to not get damamge (or at least BURST damamge) if by all means you are truthfully unskilled
oh?  like randomly dodge rolling hoping the thief or mesmer misses?

or blow a stun breaker or immunity, just to have the thief/mesmer do it again after a short period of time.  
or maybe they will just kill you with sustained damage.


there is absolutely nothing stopping a thief or mesmer from running away and coming back in 30 or so seconds and just bursting you down over again when your defensive cooldowns are down.
not that they have to run away, they have plenty of ways to avoid taking damage already.




I've played thief, mesmer, ranger, engineer, warrior, guardian.  Troll all you want, thieves [and mesmers] are very overpowered.  
I've been playing since bwe3, and they just keep making more and more retarded decisions on balance.

I think during the stress testing, they were afraid nobody would play a thief/mesmer, so they made practically last minute changes before retail. Which made them stupidly overpowered.

Elementalists back in the beta could burst as high as thieves can now, and look where they are right now...they have light armor, same base health, medium lowish damage and it's easily avoidable, and cannot stealth. GG


Arenanet is failing again, just like gw1 from what I hear.  Some classes escape the nerf bat, and some classes get hit twice without needing it.  Very disappointing that they dont seem to give a shit.

#3 The_Blades

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 08:49 AM

this is a troll post right?

saying thiefs are not op is ridiculous. Its like looking at the sea and saying its not water.

#4 Lilitu

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 10:03 AM


"2nd of all... Let me tell you something a thief is not that hard to kill"

Sorry but that's rubbish. I feel tougher on my thief than i did my warrior due to all the amazing escape mechanisms we have. Stats will only take you so far, shortbow 3 and 5 are incredible, we have awesome dodges, stealth, speed, shadowstep, cripples, evasive attacks.. All these scale far better against multiple targets than raw stats. I considered myself a good warrior, but my thief is just incredible in comparison.

#5 Mendolinha

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 10:55 AM

It is very-self explanatory when you need skill to beat a class instead of the person who's playing it.

#6 Chesire

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 11:17 AM

View PostLilitu, on 26 October 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

"2nd of all... Let me tell you something a thief is not that hard to kill"

Sorry but that's rubbish. I feel tougher on my thief than i did my warrior due to all the amazing escape mechanisms we have. Stats will only take you so far, shortbow 3 and 5 are incredible, we have awesome dodges, stealth, speed, shadowstep, cripples, evasive attacks.. All these scale far better against multiple targets than raw stats. I considered myself a good warrior, but my thief is just incredible in comparison.

+1.

Nuff said.

#7 Typhoris

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 12:41 PM

I pretty much never died ever since I started pvping on my thief. Thief is overpowered with good reasons, and its very fun abusing the skills they have :)

#8 rusticgamer

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 05:32 PM

I played thief, necro, ele, war, guardian and let me tell you something the fact that people don't use skill that seemingly would have no effects can hardly damage thier pvP gamplay

#9 adra12

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 05:46 PM

My main is a thief and I can say they truly are noobkillers. Unfortunately the noobkiller professions in everything all immediately are labeled op and whined about constantly.

I do not believe thieves to be op because skilled players have shown that the noobkiller builds lead to highly predictable strategies that are quite counterable, which is why those builds are few and far between in tPvp.

Also most of the complaining about thieves balance use as their basis a scenario in which they lost 1 v 1 against a thief. The game is not intended to be balanced for 1 v 1 combat as there is no designed 1 v 1 combat (aka dueling) in the game.

With teamwork and communication decent players have to be careful of thieves but don;t need to fear them.

As a show of my feelings as a WvWvW player I am soon to be switching my main to a hammer warrior because they are FAR FAR more useful for combat between armies larger than 3 v 3.

#10 MrForz

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Posted 26 October 2012 - 06:14 PM

Saying that Thief isn't borderline overpowered would be a crime, and a denial to look at the reality. Dealing with it, on the other hand, is something else, something that people may or may not accept. I don't consider myself ignorant and on occasions I have a separate Engineer build based on dealing with most of Thieves when roaming.

Careful analysis of the synergies, potential, tool by tool revels that they can have access to unmatched mobility coupled with massive damage. I'm most likely seeing complaints about certain skills being grossly spammed to oblivion. But very few persons point out the very high skill cap the Thief class got, handling shadowsteps, the short bow, tricks and synergies, and the rewards that come with it, that's the overpowered part that very good Thieves can bring. And in a lasting fight with one of them, I might have the advantage, but they can always flee with careful timing.

Now, I don't mind that much, even if I have that irritating feeling about typical assassin type classes in general. (And the Heart of the Mists being swarmed by gross Assassin's Creed lookalikes).

Edited by MrForz, 26 October 2012 - 06:24 PM.


#11 nublets

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 03:56 AM

I agree with you, I think people should come up with a way to counter thieves, rather than cry about how they get killed by them. Yes thieves have a lot of DPS, they also take a lot of DPS. Glass Cannon FTW. I'm sure quite a lot of people go to websites and look at the builds, pick the one with the most likes or feedback or votes and automatically think they will win. These people most likely have not tried different variations of traits, weapons, or utilities like you should when you figure out what's your style. and people will always cry about anything, whether it be legendaries, farming karma, or the cost of exotic gear, I find it ironic that it says in the title of this thread, 'why are people qqing' and the first reply was someone crying. lol

#12 Wifflebottom

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 04:10 AM

It's less about the damage they do and more about how grossly unbalanced they are compared to the other professions in terms of offensive and defensive capabilities. A thief can reset a fight easier than any other profession and/or stay in stealth for 80% of a fight avoiding most damage while dishing out the highest burst in the game. Only the mesmer comes even close to the thief's capabilities in that aspect (and even then their mobility is much worse). Also, the fact that they're easy as hell to play doesn't make them less OP. Come on I know you play thief but be rational, they're OP as hell.

Edited by Mr_Original, 27 October 2012 - 04:11 AM.


#13 Cry

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 04:19 AM

I heard almost every top team uses two thieves :rolleyes:

oh wait thats guardians, derp.

Balancing around what people say about hot join pvp and 1v1 situations is pointless as im sure has been mentioned hundreds of times before.

#14 fafnr

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 05:16 AM

View Postrusticgamer, on 26 October 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

Ok my question is stated above... Everybody are QQing because of thiefs being OP, or so they say... These poeple by all means are truthfully ignorant to this profession and do not even want  to find out more about it.

They have a severe lack of knowledge and instead of trying to roll a thief they cry about them being OP  and that it is a "noobkiller' class and so on.

I created this topic with the honest hope that some of you people (or idiots -> if you are one of those guys that I described) will take my arguments into consideration.

1st of all... If you take some builds from other players, sites and so on do not complain about you getting owned in PvP or even PvE. You have to understand that if you wish to play a class well, YOU have to CREATE a build for it that FITS your NECESSITIES and not just copy-paste  someone else's build.

2nd of all... Let me tell you something a thief is not that hard to kill AND every single problem you have with them (AoE, Elites, etc.) can be dealt with IF you have the proper knowledge. There are A LOT of ways to not get damamge (or at least BURST damamge; if by all means you are truthfully unskilled). A lot of players that I have played against have discovered quite unique ways to not let me hit them or to at least take some damage and rend my stealth useless.

3rd and last... Before crying like a stupd person on the forum when you don't even have the proper knowledge about something at least take an interest in that thing. DON'T EXPECT SOMEONE TO JUST COME WITH AN ANSWER FOR YOU, WHILE YOU SIT ON YOUR CHAIR CONFORTABLY AND DO NOTHING. And by the way for the arguments that might come such as : " I don't have enough time to get information." let me tell you something... I don't have time to get my legendary, but I don't write stupid topics that Legendaries take way too much time to get. NO! I deal with it. You deal with it too. Inform or accept your situation.

In GW1 everybody said that the Assassin sucks in JQ or FA, yet based on necessity I created a build that ruled there and won many games with it :). If someone tells you that it sucks or is a noob profession don't take it for granted. Go find a solution yourself and don't post it on sites on such, just make sure to try make everybody understand that you don't have to be the same as everybody, think freely, THINK!

Wow what a condescending rant of a post.  Epeen stroke much dude?  Granted I can beat some thieves some of the time on my toons but I quite frankly do not know of any other class in the game that can do what they can do.  One of their main styles makes them invuln,  so while spaming it theyre untouchable.  They put out a ridiculous amount of damage and are invuln 75% of the time they are attacking.   Also its an easy class to play,  so you dont even really have to be that good at one to own people.   My elementalist dreams of that kind of simplicity.

Sorry to burst your bubble knob but thieves need toning down.  Not gutted by any means.  But toned down.  One of three things Id be happy with:  1: Lose damage on Steal. 2:  Lose invuln on Death Blossom.  3  Lose traits that help a thief get his initiative back or severely tone them down.

Any one of those 3 happen and Id be ok with them.  Maybe.

PS. Edit:   Also forgot to to mention that if you saw a thief once in a while it wouldnt be a bad thing.  However they are literally everywhere and you know why?  Because they are a challenge to play?  Newp = Easy to play/Easy to pwn.

Edited by fafnr, 27 October 2012 - 05:20 AM.


#15 Therion

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 05:32 AM

When the only people who think a class isn't overpowered are the people who play that class, then you know it's overpowered.

Thieves are really broken relative to most other classes, that's just the reality of the situation right now, and both the numbers in SPvP and the attitude of the various class communities is reflective of this fact.

$50 says that the OP doesn't even play any other classes. Any takers?

Edited by Therion, 27 October 2012 - 05:34 AM.


#16 Shatteredz

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 09:30 AM

View PostTherion, on 27 October 2012 - 05:32 AM, said:

When the only people who think a class isn't overpowered are the people who play that class, then you know it's overpowered.

Thieves are really broken relative to most other classes, that's just the reality of the situation right now, and both the numbers in SPvP and the attitude of the various class communities is reflective of this fact.

$50 says that the OP doesn't even play any other classes. Any takers?

Yeah, because you actually have to play the class to learn how to counter it. no shit sherlock. Of course people that played thief dont have problems with them, they know what to do versus them. Unlike the other bunch of players(you included) that is whining here cus they got HS spammed to death.

#17 nublets

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 02:24 PM

Thieves are both squishy and high dps. Thieves can stealth, however stealth ends when you take damage or hit something and it only provides a small amount of regen. I'm not going to get into all the ways on how i get owned, i will let you figure that out for yourself. But higher DPS is made up by the squishy factor. Apparently some of you haven't played thief. or your own character for that matter to come up with a counter, i bet there is a thread like this about Mesmers too lol

#18 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 02:53 PM

LOL at thieves being squishy. I die WAY less on my glasscannon thief than my high toughness ele. Thives have so frakking many outs of fights it's ridiculous. Stealth -> infiltrators arrow away. Nuff said.

#19 Shatteredz

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 03:31 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 27 October 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

LOL at thieves being squishy. I die WAY less on my glasscannon thief than my high toughness ele. Thives have so frakking many outs of fights it's ridiculous. Stealth -> infiltrators arrow away. Nuff said.

Which reduces your damage ouput alot bcause of its initiative cost.
+ they are still squishy as hell. 1 stun and theyr done for.

Edited by Shatteredz, 27 October 2012 - 03:32 PM.


#20 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 03:42 PM

View PostShatteredz, on 27 October 2012 - 03:31 PM, said:

Which reduces your damage ouput alot bcause of its initiative cost.
+ they are still squishy as hell. 1 stun and theyr done for.

Shadowstep is one of the best stunbreakers there is. Getting distance + removing 3 condition, plus actually 2 stunbreakers on 10 seconds cooldown if needed. Also if you try to get away and not die, using your initiative for get away is not a problem.

#21 stefanplc

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 03:49 PM

View PostLilitu, on 26 October 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

"2nd of all... Let me tell you something a thief is not that hard to kill"

Sorry but that's rubbish. I feel tougher on my thief than i did my warrior due to all the amazing escape mechanisms we have. Stats will only take you so far, shortbow 3 and 5 are incredible, we have awesome dodges, stealth, speed, shadowstep, cripples, evasive attacks.. All these scale far better against multiple targets than raw stats. I considered myself a good warrior, but my thief is just incredible in comparison.

Yep, I felt pretty good on my warrior also but my thief just has waaaay more tools. For now I parked my warrior and I'm almost done gearing my thief for WvWvW.

#22 Typhoris

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 06:25 PM

View Poststefanplc, on 27 October 2012 - 03:49 PM, said:

Yep, I felt pretty good on my warrior also but my thief just has waaaay more tools. For now I parked my warrior and I'm almost done gearing my thief for WvWvW.

QFT, thief is just superior to any other class in many ways, I'm glad I main thief now :D

#23 CepaCepa

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Posted 27 October 2012 - 11:02 PM

Yes, you can counter thieves. Or mesmers. With particular builds.

But if you need to build yourself and using certain utilities JUST for one particular profession in the game, it's enough of a hint to start looking at that profession's balance. They don't necessarily need a nerf, but you bet it should be something always on the table for discussion.

I know how to counter a thief, hell if all I ever do in PvP or WvW is fight against thieves, I can build myself in certain ways that I can almost always win against at least 2-3 of the most popular thief builds in 1v1. But I've only got 3 utility slots and 1 amulet slot and thieves aren't exactly the profession that you can spot 10 miles away and switch all your utilities before he approaches. And I run the risk of being very vulnerable to some other professions if I build particularly to counter a thief, not to mention I would not want to be next to useless for my team whenever the situation is not 1v1. So now I'm building myself such that I won't die to a thief easily, and may have a chance to win --- Yeah, they aren't particularly a problem anymore, but the very fact that I have to balance my build/gear choices upon the "potential encounter of this one profession" means that thief is definitely in the spot light.

Now, it could be intended, in many mmos the thief/rogue/assasin type of class forces many other classes to build certain ways and they're supposed to do so. In other words, maybe thieves are "supposed to be" overpowered in certain areas, for example they're "supposed to" stop certain glass cannon builds in other professions. I don't know if that's the case, but either way it's silly to say that "you can always deal with thieves once you have one" --- Again, you only have 3 utility slots, and building yourself just so you can deal with thieves and making yourself utterly useless against some specs of other professions is just sad and in some ways degrading (yet, that seems to work best given how many thieves there are nowadays in comparison to others).

I'm not going to cry for a nerf to thieves, because I recognize that they're not invincible and there are situations that other professions shines a lot more than thieves. I'll just say that they're definitely something annoying and have a rather big impact on the overall structure of PvP. For this very same reason you see guardians getting QQs as well, they also influence the overall structure of PvP so they're in the spot light --- But at least they're not killing others none-stop, they're just hard to kill, so less people dislike Guardians and more people dislike thieves, it's all natural. Now you may say that a shatter mesmer is just as powerful as a thief for burst, that is true. However, the frequency of you encountering a mesmer capable of bursting you down in seconds is much less than the frequency of encountering a thief that can do the same thing --- Maybe it's just easier to play a standard zerg thief and hence everyone is playing one, or maybe the mesmer player base really haven't found out about their own burst yet, I'm not one to make a statement here. But this phenomenon, no matter the cause, is going to result in a cry on thieves over mesmers and guardians even though all three can be potentially very powerful in certain situations.

For a thief to cry about "other people crying" is therefore none-sense. Here's the logic: the only way for thieves to avoid the nerf bat is if "griefing" is what a thief is SUPPOSED to do in the meta-game to keep the balance of other professions. And if griefing is what you're supposed to do, there WILL be cries and hate and dislikes from others, it's part of the package. If you can't deal with that, then you can either ask for a nerf yourself and suddenly have more people liking you, OR just switch to another profession. For example, an engineer, ranger, or necro. No one will hate on you then.

Like you said, sometimes you've gotta just deal with it. This goes for yourself as well.

Edited by CepaCepa, 27 October 2012 - 11:14 PM.


#24 Sarerishor

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 01:36 AM

There isn't any reason to sPvP as any other class when you can play as a Thief.  It's so ridiculous that I cannot explain it, you have to find out for yourself.  I was one of those who was having issues with Thieves, so I thought, "Well, I can play whatever class I want in sPvP/tPvP, I'll try a Thief to see if I can figure out how they're destroying everyone".  Well, that's all I had to do before I never logged on any other class again.  I literally get 50% more Glory per round and win about 50% more games as a Thief than as any other class.  I almost never die during a round.  The way that stealth works in this game is definitely in need of tweaking because I can maintain stealth almost 90% of the time while also dealing more damage than any other class in the game.

#25 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 02:51 AM

View PostSarerishor, on 28 October 2012 - 01:36 AM, said:

There isn't any reason to sPvP as any other class when you can play as a Thief.  It's so ridiculous that I cannot explain it, you have to find out for yourself.  I was one of those who was having issues with Thieves, so I thought, "Well, I can play whatever class I want in sPvP/tPvP, I'll try a Thief to see if I can figure out how they're destroying everyone".  Well, that's all I had to do before I never logged on any other class again.  I literally get 50% more Glory per round and win about 50% more games as a Thief than as any other class.  I almost never die during a round.  The way that stealth works in this game is definitely in need of tweaking because I can maintain stealth almost 90% of the time while also dealing more damage than any other class in the game.

Today I saw a team of 6 guards and 2 mesmers fight against a team of 6 thieves and 2 mesmers.

I agree that stealth just seems incredibly unbalanced in this game. On papers it seems fine (oh it only lasts 3-4-5 seconds!) but ingame, especially with the insane mobility thieves have, it is more than enough, plus there are so many ways on short cooldowns to go into stealth, you're like some kind of phase jumper, going in and out of stealth every few seconds. Not only is it annoying as hell, it also enables you to backstab multiple times for huge burst with extremely short time inbetween, and if something goes bad you can always reset the fight and even get away if you want.

Mesmer stealth is fine (while still annoying) I think. They have one skill with 30 seconds cd that stealths them, and 2 others with 90 seconds that give teamstealth (which are almost never used). Plus they lack the dark field and no-cooldown combo finishers for all the restealthing action.

Edited by AetherMcLoud, 28 October 2012 - 02:54 AM.


#26 oxmox

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:13 PM

Did you guys play all classes with both a defensive and offensive builds for at least some days in spvp ? There are sometimes people around who play only fotm builds or classes and actually  have lower knowledge whats going on with class balance.

Edited by oxmox, 28 October 2012 - 11:16 PM.


#27 Budzasty

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:51 PM

It's not about burst. It's about mobility, stealth, initiative and burst. Look what good thief can do with stealth, as some thing he survives wouldn't be possible otherwise. Confusing opponent and being impossible to be targeted with many abilities is really powerful. I of course understand he doesn't use burst build, but as stated above I don't think burst is the problem(cept for steal + CnD + BS combo).



#28 Adakias

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Posted 28 October 2012 - 11:56 PM

View Postrusticgamer, on 26 October 2012 - 07:48 AM, said:

Ok my question is stated above... Everybody are QQing because of thiefs being OP, or so they say... These poeple by all means are truthfully ignorant to this profession and do not even want  to find out more about it.

They have a severe lack of knowledge and instead of trying to roll a thief they cry about them being OP  and that it is a "noobkiller' class and so on.

Stopped reading here. Most of the people complaining about thief being OP have rolled a thief, and seen just how laughable it is to spam 3 buttons in order and roll in the kills, so we went back to other professions.

Edited by Adakias, 28 October 2012 - 11:57 PM.


#29 Asomal

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 12:00 AM

View PostBudzasty, on 28 October 2012 - 11:51 PM, said:

It's not about burst. It's about mobility, stealth, initiative and burst. Look what good thief can do with stealth, as some thing he survives wouldn't be possible otherwise. Confusing opponent and being impossible to be targeted with many abilities is really powerful. I of course understand he doesn't use burst build, but as stated above I don't think burst is the problem(cept for steal + CnD + BS combo).



How to you expect anyone to take that video seriously as a proof of imbalance when in the very first fight:

1 - It's sPvP
2 - The necro didn't dodge once,at all
3 - Four signets elementalist,nuff said


Of course the thief will look OP for those people!
I don't even know what else to reply...

Edited by Asomal, 29 October 2012 - 12:02 AM.


#30 Ruufio

Ruufio

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 01:03 AM

I got banned from the official forums today defending the fact that Thieves need to be nerfed. The worst thing I did is saying about how they need nerfs is calling someone on the forum a Noob. (Because he IS a noob who thinks they don't need to be nerfed) So don't say Thieves need nerfs because they'll ban you.

Surely Anet has records which shows the most played profession so GOD KNOWS why they haven't nerfed Thieves to obvlivion like they should be. I've been playing Necro for 1 month now and omg have I missed facerolling on my Thief. Tried my Thief again today. It's like heaven how easy it is to kill people. All the wasted games I've played and wasted glory...

Edited by Ruufio, 29 October 2012 - 01:03 AM.






Also tagged with one or more of these keywords: thief, pvp, wvw

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