120 replies to this topic

[ak47_training]

Shatteredz, on 01 November 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

in 90 % of the cases, balancing for high level play will balance for low level play as well.

You pulled that 90% out of your hat, didn't you? I can claim its 50% and be as sound as you are, if not more.

Besides, there is WvW, and it is totally different kitchen. You can have 100% balanced game in tpvp and glaring whopping imbalance in WvW at the same time.

Shatteredz, on 01 November 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

Because high level play decides the meta, and low level play follows high level play in terms of meta. Besides some stuff being easier to learn, high level balance=low level balance.

Well, you said it yourself. Some stuff is easy to learn. Some stuff is hard to learn. Example? Elementalist. There are much fewer of them in spvp than in tpvp.
Also, some stuff is extremely good in coordinated team, and has barely any use in random team. Like mass invis / portals. Or Sanctuary. Or many, many more things.

Point being, high level coordinated play != low level random play. They are very different. Thus, the balance IS different.

Example from, say, old Dota. Old Rikimaru (with perma invis and pew-pew-pew ward as ulti). He was totally broken in random pubs. I remember pwning faces 20 kills / 0 deaths with some stupidly ridiculous builds with Sheepstick and Dagon.
When it came to clanwars, that character was never ever picked. Because people were coordinated enough to get true sight and protect the carrier. And even if Riki got close enough to place a ward, ppl either retreated from or focusfired it so it died in 0.5 seconds, being a waste. And without ward/invis he was just another melee squishy with no nukes / cc / support.

Shatteredz, on 01 November 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

Of course balancing both perfectly would be awsome, but probably not a single game mananged to balance high level pvp, let alone both high and low level pvp.

It is still a goal for ANet, you see. So we should never disregard stuff based solely on the argument "Hey thats not tpvp so it doesnt matter".

Shatteredz, on 01 November 2012 - 02:43 PM, said:

And saying that PW and HS nerfs didnt touch Tpvp is a stupid arguments. If anything it made thiefs even more pushed towards the venom share build, without any other options on par with venom share.

Well... I never noticed a declain in numbers of D/D (or even S/P for that matter, but they were never too popular) thieves in tpvp. They are still whopping effective roamers. They still oneshot people with CnD->Steal->Backstab->HS combo with no telegraphing whatsoever. They still get away freely from almost any situation. New Assasin's Signet, for instance,  changed nothing in this regard. Maybe some of them adjusted their traits slightly, but that's it. Many did not even use the Signet in the first place.

[Shatteredz]

ak47_training, on 01 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

You pulled that 90% out of your hat, didn't you? I can claim its 50% and be as sound as you are, if not more.

Yeah i did, but my point stands. Changes that balance high level play will almost always effect low level play in a positive way.

ak47_training, on 01 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

Besides, there is WvW, and it is totally different kitchen. You can have 100% balanced game in tpvp and glaring whopping imbalance in WvW at the same time.

WvW has(IMO) to many to many stuff(food buffs, orb bonus, castle bonus, gear) to balance it around. Numbers, siege and coordinated play is what makes the difference there, not running the OP builds.

ak47_training, on 01 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

Well, you said it yourself. Some stuff is easy to learn. Some stuff is hard to learn. Example? Elementalist. There are much fewer of them in spvp than in tpvp.
Also, some stuff is extremely good in coordinated team, and has barely any use in random team. Like mass invis / portals. Or Sanctuary. Or many, many more things.

But should we buff stuff because people dont know how to use it properly? IMO we dont.

ak47_training, on 01 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

Point being, high level coordinated play != low level random play. They are very different. Thus, the balance IS different.

Yes, the balance is different. However, if you fail in low-level play(cus of inbalance caused by hard to play vs easy to play, for example) you can learn how to counter stuff, improve, and then gain the upper hand. If something is unbalanced in high-level pvp, it basically means you are stuck and cant progress because class Y will always faceroll you, no matter what you try. If you cant progress, you are stuck, and nobody likes being stuck. You might get stuck in low-level play as well, but thats only temporary, as you progress in skill level and game awareness.

ak47_training, on 01 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

Example from, say, old Dota. Old Rikimaru (with perma invis and pew-pew-pew ward as ulti). He was totally broken in random pubs. I remember pwning faces 20 kills / 0 deaths with some stupidly ridiculous builds with Sheepstick and Dagon.
When it came to clanwars, that character was never ever picked. Because people were coordinated enough to get true sight and protect the carrier. And even if Riki got close enough to place a ward, ppl either retreated from or focusfired it so it died in 0.5 seconds, being a waste. And without ward/invis he was just another melee squishy with no nukes / cc / support.

Same with rampage and invis heroes(the irony) in low-level play versus high level play in HoN. Because people are not willing to invest time to learn how to counter a hero(or create a general sense of map awareness for that matter) a hero is deemed OP, because people refuse to use right counters, for whatever reasons.

ak47_training, on 01 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

It is still a goal for ANet, you see. So we should never disregard stuff based solely on the argument "Hey thats not tpvp so it doesnt matter".

We should not of course, but our main focus should be on Tpvp, unless a more competative mode comes out. Balancing around bad players is simply way to hard, because you dont know how they are gonna respond, because bad players dont know that as well. Good players will know that ele staff has skill X and he is probably gonna use that around time Y and thus i should keep my Q untill he uses that skill. It is simply alot easyer to theorycraft around compotent players, and thus easyer to balance around.

ak47_training, on 01 November 2012 - 07:59 PM, said:

Well... I never noticed a declain in numbers of D/D (or even S/P for that matter, but they were never too popular) thieves in tpvp. They are still whopping effective roamers. They still oneshot people with CnD->Steal->Backstab->HS combo with no telegraphing whatsoever. They still get away freely from almost any situation. New Assasin's Signet, for instance,  changed nothing in this regard. Maybe some of them adjusted their traits slightly, but that's it. Many did not even use the Signet in the first place.

I am not a huge fan of the signet anyway, but I think that the AS "nerf"might be close to being a buff, yet all the QQíng around the instagib combo died out.
And a damage reduce on HS does gimp potential builds. Just because it doesnt seem that obvious now doesnt mean it didnt do anything. A damage decrease is always gonna hurt. Not saying it wasnt a good nerf(i quess i even agree with it) but any nerf to any skill is always gonna hurt a class, be it inmidiatly or ruining potential future builds after another skill has been buffed, or another meta comes forward.

Edited by Shatteredz, 01 November 2012 - 11:58 PM.

[AetherMcLoud]

Bla bla bla. Thieves can try to defend their backstabs all they want, Anet has spoken and they will nerf it.

So much for "it's so balanced at higher level of play and Anet only balanced around the 2 best players in the world".

[Runkleford]

ANET must be ignorant then since they've already nerfed thieves recently and have said more nerfs are incoming. What's funny is that these people defending the current status of the thief have been accusing others of being ignorant and that they need to learn to play. Except they are the ones relying on a broken profession as a crutch. I'd rather that the thief that I play be balanced so that I can rely on my own skill rather than mechanics that are a bit too strong.

[Shatteredz]

AetherMcLoud, on 02 November 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

Bla bla bla. Thieves can try to defend their backstabs all they want, Anet has spoken and they will nerf it.

So much for "it's so balanced at higher level of play and Anet only balanced around the 2 best players in the world".

Your arguments are always so convincing...
If you are here just to shove your arguments down somebody else his throat instead of discussing, then what are you doing here? At least back up your ridiculous claims with arguments.

[AetherMcLoud]

Shatteredz, on 02 November 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

Your arguments are always so convincing...
If you are here just to shove your arguments down somebody else his throat instead of discussing, then what are you doing here? At least back up your ridiculous claims with arguments.

https://forum-en.gui...ge/2#post601420

[RandolfRa]

I watched this thief friend of mine roaming in border lands the other day. It's really ridiculous, there is absolutely nothing they can do to defend themselfs. If you don't think that thief burst needs a nerf, you have never seen a good player abusing it. I still hope they don't nerf it though, it's a lot of fun to roam with these type of thiefs.

Edited by RandolfRa, 02 November 2012 - 04:14 PM.

[AetherMcLoud]

RandolfRa, on 02 November 2012 - 04:08 PM, said:

I watched this thief friend of mine roaming in border lands the other day. It's really ridiculous, there is absolutely nothing they can do to defend themselfs. If you don't think that thief burst needs a nerf, you have never seen a good player abusing it. I still hope they don't nerf it though, it's a lot of fun to roam with these type of thiefs.

Being overpowered is always fun for the one on the overpowered side.

[RandolfRa]

AetherMcLoud, on 02 November 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

Being overpowered is always fun for the one on the overpowered side.

It's not always that exciting, but since my server can't compete with international worlds it's currently up against, it's nice to kick some ass on roams.

Edited by RandolfRa, 02 November 2012 - 04:42 PM.

[Shatteredz]

AetherMcLoud, on 02 November 2012 - 12:22 PM, said:

https://forum-en.gui...ge/2#post601420

They are LOOKING INTO IT.
Dunno, if you ever went to the forums of another MMORPGH, but the likelyhood of it being a good kind of nerf/buff(if any at all) is minimal at best. Untill I actually see some patch notes im still gonna stay the same way.
Not that I care about it alot tough, not running  a backstab build anyway, so the likelyhood if it effecting me in a negative way(besides the once every few hours backstab i do on my unicorn build) is pretty minimal.
That being said, I hope backstab thieves are still usefull after a nerf, if its comming. I hope they fix the  20k/1 sec burst combo, and compensate in another area if needed.

Edited by Shatteredz, 02 November 2012 - 06:47 PM.

[Rouzeki]

Can't wait for the nerfs!

[MrForz]

Sorry for being a complete prick in here but I how is a Backstab nerf going to arrange things?

[Shatteredz]

MrForz, on 02 November 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

Sorry for being a complete prick in here but I how is a Backstab nerf going to arrange things?

Noobs will be QQ'ing less.
More or less.

[Drtrider]

Allot being said here. Most of it I have seen before.

However, I'll just say this. (I'm a level 80 thief with full exotics and I basically live in WvW so I can speak from experience.)

PvP imo is what you bring to the table, your knowledge of the classes/skills, and how to counteract abilities/tactics.

I would say its safe to say about 80% of people these days in WvW are skilled/geared out for as much damage as possible. This means they're going to die fairly quickly. Meaning, it's going to make any class you go against, (especially a spike heavy thief) seem "OP" When it comes to bacon-winged classes on a thief. They get one way to attack you. That's it. Learn to counter it. And you're golden. Only time a backstab thief has killed me, is 1. They get the jump on me. or 2. I let them. Keep in mind that's in a 1v1 fight. They're basically powerless after that one spike.

Meaning, if you're not made of glass and tissue paper you take the damage, heal and finish off the thief. Simple as that.

Learn to better counter such spike issues, and you'll see all this QQ is not necessary. Because I'v been immobilized and hundred bladed down with haste just as fast as any thief can backstab. If two glass cannons go at it the person who gets their burst off first is going to win. Maybe try looking at it from a different angle other then screaming "HE'S OP NERF HIM!?"

[Rrafaz]

Drtrider, on 02 November 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

Allot being said here. Most of it I have seen before.

However, I'll just say this. (I'm a level 80 thief with full exotics and I basically live in WvW so I can speak from experience.)

PvP imo is what you bring to the table, your knowledge of the classes/skills, and how to counteract abilities/tactics.

I would say its safe to say about 80% of people these days in WvW are skilled/geared out for as much damage as possible. This means they're going to die fairly quickly. Meaning, it's going to make any class you go against, (especially a spike heavy thief) seem "OP" When it comes to bacon-winged classes on a thief. They get one way to attack you. That's it. Learn to counter it. And you're golden. Only time a backstab thief has killed me, is 1. They get the jump on me. or 2. I let them. Keep in mind that's in a 1v1 fight. They're basically powerless after that one spike.

Meaning, if you're not made of glass and tissue paper you take the damage, heal and finish off the thief. Simple as that.

Learn to better counter such spike issues, and you'll see all this QQ is not necessary. Because I'v been immobilized and hundred bladed down with haste just as fast as any thief can backstab. If two glass cannons go at it the person who gets their burst off first is going to win. Maybe try looking at it from a different angle other then screaming "HE'S OP NERF HIM!?"

First things first. WvW is overinflated damage-wise and stat-wise and isn't remotely balanced around 1v1, so it's fine. Getting killed very fast doesn't matter when there's 50 people around you to help you out.

Your logic is flawed, however. This is equivalent to saying that no one but Thieves should be allowed to gear for damage. This is absurd. I should be able to spec damage on my ele if I want to, picking up perhaps one stat for survival, either toughness or vitality.

But this is where it gets worse. Even if you don't spec for FULL damage, geared in berserker's armor and an amulet, you still get rolled by this thief "build". For example, on my thief, whom I run a full 30 in acrobatics (+300 vit), two stun breakers (Three counting the second part of Shadow Step), a blind field, and a knight's amulet (and not this joke of a "build"), I'm still getting killed in one hit/combo, providing I don't react in the short window of opportunity (1/2-1 second, give or take a few fractions of a second). "Learning to react" like you mentioned suddenly turns into a battle of twitchy, god like reflexes to avoid being killed in one collective hit. This, too, is absurd.

I am looking at this at a different angle. Built full toughness or vitality it's possible to absorb this combo, yes. But then we go back to my original point.

Why should Thieves be the only one allowed to spec for damage?

[Shatteredz]

Rrafaz, on 03 November 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

First things first. WvW is overinflated damage-wise and stat-wise and isn't remotely balanced around 1v1, so it's fine. Getting killed very fast doesn't matter when there's 50 people around you to help you out.

Your logic is flawed, however. This is equivalent to saying that no one but Thieves should be allowed to gear for damage. This is absurd. I should be able to spec damage on my ele if I want to, picking up perhaps one stat for survival, either toughness or vitality.

But this is where it gets worse. Even if you don't spec for FULL damage, geared in berserker's armor and an amulet, you still get rolled by this thief "build". For example, on my thief, whom I run a full 30 in acrobatics (+300 vit), two stun breakers (Three counting the second part of Shadow Step), a blind field, and a knight's amulet (and not this joke of a "build"), I'm still getting killed in one hit/combo, providing I don't react in the short window of opportunity (1/2-1 second, give or take a few fractions of a second). "Learning to react" like you mentioned suddenly turns into a battle of twitchy, god like reflexes to avoid being killed in one collective hit. This, too, is absurd.

I am looking at this at a different angle. Built full toughness or vitality it's possible to absorb this combo, yes. But then we go back to my original point.

Why should Thieves be the only one allowed to spec for damage?

He is not saying that, he says that thieves are a pretty good counter versus other glasscannons, because, lets face it, glasscannon vs glasscannon is basically gonna be who-ever bursts first wins, and thieves rock at initiation.
And i have no idea what you are doing in pvp, but if i got a knights amulet im not gonna get rolled by a mug+cnd+backstab combo.

[Rrafaz]

Shatteredz, on 03 November 2012 - 12:21 AM, said:

He is not saying that, he says that thieves are a pretty good counter versus other glasscannons, because, lets face it, glasscannon vs glasscannon is basically gonna be who-ever bursts first wins, and thieves rock at initiation.
And i have no idea what you are doing in pvp, but if i got a knights amulet im not gonna get rolled by a mug+cnd+backstab combo.

Whether or not you have the Knight's amulet doesn't matter. They do enough damage to kill you in one combo regardless, especially to classes with low base HP like ele's and other thieves. And, if they don't get you down, they'll heartseeker.

But my skill isn't the fulcrum of the point i'm trying to make here. I hardly die to these thieves either. It's the damage they put out.

Also, you're wrong; Any thief glasscannon has more survival ability through teleports and perma-stealthing by chaining to get up to 12-15 seconds. If he ever fails his combo, or figures out you're a bunker, he can just get away through a series of shadowsteps and stealths. This hardly seems like a "whoever burst wins" scenario when the Thief can easily teleport away if in danger.

Drtrider, on 02 November 2012 - 10:16 PM, said:

Allot being said here. Most of it I have seen before.

...

Meaning, if you're not made of glass and tissue paper you take the damage, heal and finish off the thief. Simple as that.

His point is that if you're not glass cannon, you don't die. But that's hardly the truth. Active defense in this game is everything. And when he CC's you so you can't react through his venoms, and takes under a second to dish out your entire health bar in damage, it gets ridiculously hard to time that active defense. Add to that the fact that you can't see him during this entire combo, making it even harder to react, especially if jumped first. The only time I've seen a thief have a hard time in this spec downing someone is when it's a bunker guardian. Everything else doesn't stand a chance.

Edited by Rrafaz, 03 November 2012 - 01:44 AM.

[ak47_training]

Rrafaz, on 03 November 2012 - 01:40 AM, said:

His point is that if you're not glass cannon, you don't die. But that's hardly the truth. Active defense in this game is everything. And when he CC's you so you can't react through his venoms, and takes under a second to dish out your entire health bar in damage, it gets ridiculously hard to time that active defense. Add to that the fact that you can't see him during this entire combo, making it even harder to react, especially if jumped first. The only time I've seen a thief have a hard time in this spec downing someone is when it's a bunker guardian. Everything else doesn't stand a chance.

^Could not say this better myself.

The only thing that keeps Thieves from running amock in TPvP is the strong presence of Bunker Guardians and Mesmers - the characters best equipped for dealing with Thieves.

Shatteredz, on 01 November 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

Yeah i did, but my point stands. Changes that balance high level play will almost always effect low level play in a positive way.

WvW has(IMO) to many to many stuff(food buffs, orb bonus, castle bonus, gear) to balance it around. Numbers, siege and coordinated play is what makes the difference there, not running the OP builds.

But should we buff stuff because people dont know how to use it properly? IMO we dont.
Yes, the balance is different. However, if you fail in low-level play(cus of inbalance caused by hard to play vs easy to play, for example) you can learn how to counter stuff, improve, and then gain the upper hand. If something is unbalanced in high-level pvp, it basically means you are stuck and cant progress because class Y will always faceroll you, no matter what you try. If you cant progress, you are stuck, and nobody likes being stuck. You might get stuck in low-level play as well, but thats only temporary, as you progress in skill level and game awareness.

Same with rampage and invis heroes(the irony) in low-level play versus high level play in HoN. Because people are not willing to invest time to learn how to counter a hero(or create a general sense of map awareness for that matter) a hero is deemed OP, because people refuse to use right counters, for whatever reasons.

We should not of course, but our main focus should be on Tpvp, unless a more competative mode comes out. Balancing around bad players is simply way to hard, because you dont know how they are gonna respond, because bad players dont know that as well. Good players will know that ele staff has skill X and he is probably gonna use that around time Y and thus i should keep my Q untill he uses that skill. It is simply alot easyer to theorycraft around compotent players, and thus easyer to balance around.

Your points are perfectly valid, but you misunderstood me a bit. I did not mean to "buff stuff that people do not know how to use properly". I've meant "nerf stuff that the few smart people know how to properly abuse, the nerf won't affect the majority anyway, but will fix the balance at high level play".
For example, making Mesmer portal limited to, say 10 travels max, will not be ever noticed in sPvP, will be barely noticed in tPvP, and will have HUGE impact on WvW. (Don't take me wrong, it's just an example, I'm not suggesting it. I am participating in structured WvW alot, and I'm honestly not sure whether Portals should be fixed at all. It is a good teamplay skill that takes coordination to use and is a good way to use discipline to beat numbers.)

Shatteredz, on 01 November 2012 - 11:57 PM, said:

I am not a huge fan of the signet anyway, but I think that the AS "nerf"might be close to being a buff, yet all the QQíng around the instagib combo died out.
And a damage reduce on HS does gimp potential builds. Just because it doesnt seem that obvious now doesnt mean it didnt do anything. A damage decrease is always gonna hurt. Not saying it wasnt a good nerf(i quess i even agree with it) but any nerf to any skill is always gonna hurt a class, be it inmidiatly or ruining potential future builds after another skill has been buffed, or another meta comes forward.

Yes, I also thought AS rework was more of a buff than nerf. It eliminated the "omg" large Backstab number from death recap, but did nothing to Thief splitsecond oneshot dynamic.
As for HS... Well, it was a "spam to win" button before, now Thief actually has to wait for a proper situation to use it. The situation it is useful in arises extremely often (target has 50% or less hp, or you want a gap closer), the cost is cheap (3 init and fast animation), HS is very effective in given situations, so... Nerf was noticable at lowlevel (made hs spammers useless) but did not impact high level (where HS was used as a follow up to a BS combo already). Then, after some time, most Thieves learned about the combo so we're back to where we used to be, i.e. mainhand dagger Thieves rock in all sorts of pvp.

Edited by ak47_training, 03 November 2012 - 09:57 AM.

[Shatteredz]

ak47_training, on 03 November 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

^Could not say this better myself.

The only thing that keeps Thieves from running amock in TPvP is the strong presence of Bunker Guardians and Mesmers - the characters best equipped for dealing with Thieves.

Your points are perfectly valid, but you misunderstood me a bit. I did not mean to "buff stuff that people do not know how to use properly". I've meant "nerf stuff that the few smart people know how to properly abuse, the nerf won't affect the majority anyway, but will fix the balance at high level play".
For example, making Mesmer portal limited to, say 10 travels max, will not be ever noticed in sPvP, will be barely noticed in tPvP, and will have HUGE impact on WvW. (Don't take me wrong, it's just an example, I'm not suggesting it. I am participating in structured WvW alot, and I'm honestly not sure whether Portals should be fixed at all. It is a good teamplay skill that takes coordination to use and is a good way to use discipline to beat numbers.)

Yes, I also thought AS rework was more of a buff than nerf. It eliminated the "omg" large Backstab number from death recap, but did nothing to Thief splitsecond oneshot dynamic.
As for HS... Well, it was a "spam to win" button before, now Thief actually has to wait for a proper situation to use it. The situation it is useful in arises extremely often (target has 50% or less hp, or you want a gap closer), the cost is cheap (3 init and fast animation), HS is very effective in given situations, so... Nerf was noticable at lowlevel (made hs spammers useless) but did not impact high level (where HS was used as a follow up to a BS combo already). Then, after some time, most Thieves learned about the combo so we're back to where we used to be, i.e. mainhand dagger Thieves rock in all sorts of pvp.

I agree with the statement about nerfing something if its abused on higher level play or in WvW, as long as it doesnt drastically effect Tpvp balance in a negative way.
Also, with the stealth render bugfix comming, i hope the stealth QQ stuff will calm down.

[off3nc3]

AetherMcLoud, on 02 November 2012 - 12:36 AM, said:

Bla bla bla. Thieves can try to defend their backstabs all they want, Anet has spoken and they will nerf it.

So much for "it's so balanced at higher level of play and Anet only balanced around the 2 best players in the world".

Dont worry we will still gank you Anet has already stated thieves will be compensated and its probably gonna be a tweak not a nerf. Dont hope too much or you will be dissapointed fellow

Edited by off3nc3, 03 November 2012 - 05:03 PM.

[antarian]

to OP: it seems that you probably dont play lot of classes otherwise you will not post anything like that :-)

there are some counters against backstab builds and its work but it is really strange to build class against one or two OP builds to be competetive. I would also say that its not possible to counter that with every class and very often you found that you need to be much much better than player who is playing thief.

The biggest problem is:
1) thief have super easy mechanism and its hard to avoid his attacks - opposite is warrior for example because his damage output is also very high but its very easy to avoid his attacks
2) thief have great way how to escape problems ...
3) other players need to build their build to be able to counter this (I think this is big problem, at least for me). One of great build which can destroy thief quickly is for example guardian with correct build.

its possible to play against it but its very difficult with most of the classes and builds. Its simply much easier to create thief and own in your first game ... (I am not talking about mesmers :-))) )

[Featherman]

I don't see what the argument is here. Do some people truly think that instagib classes classes with stealth mechanics are infuriating to fight?

[Priest]

Anyone who thinks thieves are fine are just bads trying to justify to themselves that they're truly better than everyone else and it's just a learn to play issue. I'm sure the fact that each and every spvp game has 5+ thieves and we get a new video everyday of totally new original backstab thief burst has nothing to do with the class not being balanced...

[MrForz]

Priest, on 07 November 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

Anyone who thinks thieves are fine are just bads trying to justify to themselves that they're truly better than everyone else and it's just a learn to play issue. I'm sure the fact that each and every spvp game has 5+ thieves and we get a new video everyday of totally new original backstab thief burst has nothing to do with the class not being balanced...

Well, I'm actually using a Pistol/Shield as an Engineer, we don't have much troubles dealing with them, we just don't get to finish them off unfortunately.

[Shatteredz]

Priest, on 07 November 2012 - 04:17 PM, said:

Anyone who thinks thieves are fine are just bads trying to justify to themselves that they're truly better than everyone else and it's just a learn to play issue. I'm sure the fact that each and every spvp game has 5+ thieves and we get a new video everyday of totally new original backstab thief burst has nothing to do with the class not being balanced...

Has to do with thieves being easy to play, and the fact that in Spvp classes that can solo well will be "better" then classes that require/are stronger with teamwork, since there is close to no teamwork/communication in spvp.
That along with thiefs being very strong versus glass cannon builds(which a majoiry of the Spvp community runs).

[RandolfRa]

Shatteredz, on 07 November 2012 - 06:26 PM, said:

Has to do with thieves being easy to play, and the fact that in Spvp classes that can solo well will be "better" then classes that require/are stronger with teamwork, since there is close to no teamwork/communication in spvp.
That along with thiefs being very strong versus glass cannon builds(which a majoiry of the Spvp community runs).

In other words, they are OP in spvp. Either change thiefs or the nature of spvp, or they will remain op.

Shatteredz, on 03 November 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

I agree with the statement about nerfing something if its abused on higher level play or in WvW, as long as it doesnt drastically effect Tpvp balance in a negative way.
Also, with the stealth render bugfix comming, i hope the stealth QQ stuff will calm down.

Couldn't they just make tpvp entirely separate? If possible, completly separate game? Then we would get less of these "but it won't be good for tpvp" -nonarguments.

Edited by RandolfRa, 07 November 2012 - 07:35 PM.

[Shatteredz]

RandolfRa, on 07 November 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

In other words, they are OP in spvp. Either change thiefs or the nature of spvp, or they will remain op.


Couldn't they just make tpvp entirely separate? If possible, completly separate game? Then we would get less of these "but it won't be good for tpvp" -nonarguments.

We shouldnt and we wont balance pvp around a bunch of noobs. We should not nerf a class because a player isnt learning how to counter X or how to play versus Y. If people bunch up all the time, AoE is gonna kill them, hard. Should we tell them to spread out versus AoE or should we nerf every AoE skill so people dont have to learn how to counter it?
no offense, but thats what alot of the players in Spvp are. Alot are just going to QQ 100b instead of learning how to counter X or change to skill Y. Most of those people are running full glass cannon builds and then start complaining that they are getting killed so fast.

Edited by Shatteredz, 07 November 2012 - 09:55 PM.

[RandolfRa]

Shatteredz, on 07 November 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

We shouldnt and we wont balance pvp around a bunch of noobs. We should not nerf a class because a player isnt learning how to counter X or how to play versus Y. If people bunch up all the time, AoE is gonna kill them, hard. Should we tell them to spread out versus AoE or should we nerf every AoE skill so people dont have to learn how to counter it?
no offense, but thats what alot of the players in Spvp are. Alot are just going to QQ 100b instead of learning how to counter X or change to skill Y. Most of those people are running full glass cannon builds and then start complaining that they are getting killed so fast.

People in spvp aren't a bunch of noobs, nor are those who play wvw. Lots of new and more experienced (some even as much as 2 and half months!) play those.

The thing is, tpvp is a steril point defence game with small but organised parties. It's completly differend from the chaos of spvp which people play just for duels, to farm glory, to grief, etc. Even less it has to do with the large battle grounds and jumping puzzles of WvW.
This is why I think it would be much simpler if tpvp was completly separate.

Edited by RandolfRa, 08 November 2012 - 12:54 AM.

[Shatteredz]

RandolfRa, on 08 November 2012 - 12:33 AM, said:

People in spvp aren't a bunch of noobs, nor are those who play wvw. Lots of new and more experienced (some even as much as 2 and half months!) play those.

The thing is, tpvp is a steril point defence game with small but organised parties. It's completly differend from the chaos of spvp which people play just for duels, to farm glory, to grief, etc. Even less it has to do with the large battle grounds and jumping puzzles of WvW.
This is why I think it would be much simpler if tpvp was completly separate.

But Anet already stated they wanted the exact opposite of that.
Also, I am gonna refer to my argument in my last post:
If people in Spvp ball up(like a big ball o noobs), and a elementalist nukes them with AoE's, then would that make elementalists and AoE's OP or should the players in Spvp learn to spread out?

[Red_Falcon]

People will never stop complaining about Thieves.

Let's assume damage gets toned down for a whooping 50%.
CnD+Steal = 3k, backstab = 4k, 'seekers 1-2k.
It would only take a steal combo + 2 seeker for 12k health squishies, +3 seekers for mediums, prolly a second ambush for heavies.
Sure it would take 6-8 seconds to do this.

The problem is people wants to withstand a thief WITHOUT burning a CD, without dodging anything.
You're not going to beat a Necro without removing conditions and getting out of circles, or a Mesmer without killing clones or dodging shatters.
Similarly you're not going to beat a Thief if you stand still and let him beat you.

The next patches will be a real test to see if Anet is balancing on hard data or going the Blizzard way and balance on complaints.