86 replies to this topic

[Kutsus]

I'm starting with the assumption that the vast majority of us play this game as recreation, to enjoy ourselves and let off some steam. So with that in mind, let's also remember there will always be something considered overpowered and FOTM as balancing takes place. MMOs are never perfectly balanced by nature.

Would you rather spend all your time whining about the FOTM, hopping around playing whatever is FOTM and defending it, or just playing what you like and learning to hard counter all the bandwagoners? This is a serious question, because it seems like 95% around here will choose options 1 or 2 without even giving 3 consideration.

Think about the impact on yourself.

• Being angry about something you can't change directly is just going to make you frustrated. Sure, you can go vent/whine on the forums but you're still sitting around mad all night when you're supposed to be enjoying yourself.
  
• Rerolling the FOTM is a common choice. If you can't beat them, join them. But then you get bored because you're the same as everybody else or even worse, your constant bandwagonning leaves you battling the learning curve and people who have chosen option 3 walk all over you because they're masters of their class.
  
• Theorycraft with others, test abilities, test builds and discover what the FOTM is weak against, then capitalize on it using the class that you enjoy and are most familiar with. Not only are you winning a lot more, but you're proud of yourself for beating the big bad overpowered people.

That's all I have to say, GL all.

[Korra]

What's the actual FOTM? I barely see any HS naab anymore, besides of some bad thiefs that go always with a zerg and HS you to death.

[Dirame]

The only FOTM Build I hate is the shatter mesmer, mostly because I can't kill them with retaliation. Apart from that I'm okay with BS thieves and their BS (pun, partially intended).

Edited by Dirame, 26 October 2012 - 01:31 PM.

[mydixienormus]

There is no FOTM.  The game has been out 2 months and nothing has really changed balance wise.  It's more like flavor of the retail release because devs are unwilling to make intelligent and swift balance decisions.

"We balance because it is just plain wrong" - well no you dont, you dont balance at all.

They make teeny tiny changes to thieves/mesmers from [legitimate] forum qq which dont end up changing anything in the long run.  
In beta/stress test they completely destroyed the burst capabilities of a few classes.


"waiting for meta counters to develop" - bullshit again.  People dont counter, they join the overpoweredness because it isnt counterable by any normal means.



They have no problem with completely breaking classes and let mesmers/thieves/bunkers slide.


The 40-50k bladetrail bug, jon peters said something like if it's easily repeatable they can look into a hot fix.  Right.  Because it isnt gamebreaking or anything.

Some random thread wanting to improve confusion (as if it wasnt overpowered enough already) mr jon peters responds within a day and already promising to talk to the dev team about adding new shit to the game.  Right.  Great fing priorities there.  
A million bugs to necros and yet the priority will be to add a rune to increase confusion duration, lo-fing-l.

[Kutsus]

Korra, on 26 October 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

What's the actual FOTM? I barely see any HS naab anymore, besides of some bad thiefs that go always with a zerg and HS you to death.

The general FOTM are D/D thieves (both condi unicorn and backstab/signets) and shatter mesmers.

mydixienormus, on 26 October 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

QQ FOTM is really FOTForever

QQ Anet makes small changes and watches results instead of massive nerfs

QQ Anet wants to watch tPvP meta develop before making major changes

QQ mesmers/thieves/bunkers

QQ bladetrail is bugged

QQ Anet is working on multiple things at once instead of dedicating its whole staff to necros

The above poster is a perfect example of my point. This dude is so upset about everything, I can't imagine how he enjoys his free time playing this game. I can promise you, if you stop whining 100s of others will carry the torch of tears for you and maybe you'll be able to enjoy your day.

[Kutsus]

Thanatar, on 25 October 2012 - 12:57 PM, said:

while i also think thieves deal a little too much damage against heavy armor classes and stealth is really annoying, i tried to stop whining about it because all i can do is to wait for anets fixes.

in the meantime i tried to find some tactics against thieves. i am talking from a wvw view because that is pretty much everything i do in gw2. i am running a build very close to stefanplcs matale 7 wvw build. i like the mobility and control it gives. on the downside, burst is not really available.

my gear is a mix between knights armor and karma armor with pow/vit/tough, amulett valkyrie, other jewelry knights and knights weapons. this gives me a whopping 3,3k armor which is very nice.

there are generally two types of thieves to fight: the ones that evade through dodges and db or range and the ones that stealth really much for evasion. while i am not comfortable with all animations of the thief (which makes it quite hard to spot things like c&d), i found it highly necessary to predict their movement. where will he dodge to? what are the surroundings? where did he go when he stealthed?

when a thief stealthes, i watch out for the shadowstep animation on the ground. if a can't see any, i try to predict his path and hit him with a cc (backbreaker, tremor, earthshaker). most thieves don't expect you to attack them while they are stealthed, so if you get lucky hit, it really throws them off. with earthshaker you can check if you hit them on your adrenaline bar. also i swing around and turn my char like a madman, so every attempt to backstab me brings the risk of getting smacked in the face. if i get the oppurtunity to catch them in cc i do my best to keep them down. earthshaker has a very low cooldown and is an awesome ability. try to chain it with something else, so they can't evade without using a stunbreaker.

when i see a shadowstep animation and it is landing near me, first thing i do is: dodge, turn around, ae hammer cripple. then i swap to my shield and use the block to avoid their initial burst. if i am lucky and they get visible i try to shieldstun, switch back to my beloved hammer (in case fast hands didn't bug^^) and try to start my cc chain.

fighting thieves is a VERY hard task, since they are made for duelling. i lost many fights against them and a equally skilled thief will still dominate me 80% of the time. but what's the matter with that? real men stay visible, therefore we are warriors. ;-)

i hope you can use my tips to your advantage. excuse any spelling or grammar mistakes, since english is not my mothertounge.

This guy knows how to enjoy himself while playing a MMO that includes PvP.

[Typhoris]

Why be angry towards thief when you can switch to thief and experience the ease and fun of the class?  

[Playpad]

Kutsus, on 26 October 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

• 
  
• Theorycraft with others, test abilities, test builds and discover what the FOTM is weak against, then capitalize on it using the class that you enjoy and are most familiar with. Not only are you winning a lot more, but you're proud of yourself for beating the big bad overpowered people.

the premise for trying to improve oneselves gameplay is to assume not being the very best already. but it's like almost everyone is aussuming to be the very best player worldwide and got beaten not due to his lack of knowledge concerning professions but the OPness of everyone who beats him.

its actually quite easier to consider every class is simply OP (even the own if they got beaten by it) instead of being self-aware.

[MrForz]

Typhoris, on 26 October 2012 - 03:53 PM, said:

Why be angry towards thief when you can switch to thief and experience the ease and fun of the class?  

Because your class can happen to have one of the most stylish counters of the universe. I never thought I would ever go pistol/shield again, and use Rocket Kick on top of it.

[mydixienormus]

Kutsus, on 26 October 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

The above poster is a perfect example of my point. This dude is so upset about everything, I can't imagine how he enjoys his free time playing this game. I can promise you, if you stop whining 100s of others will carry the torch of tears for you and maybe you'll be able to enjoy your day.

I dont play a necro.  It was just an example of arenanets piss poor priority.  They literally shit on classes not that good and then buff thief/mesmer.  They will break a broken class further, but wont nerf the overpowered ones.

I wont do spvp unless I am on my bunker mesmer.  I'd like to play my main, but it sucks compared to mesmer.  Really, only a shatter mesmer can counter my bunker mesmer...

I have lots of fun in WvW playing my condition thief and dagger storming into large groups of enemies and teleporting/running away stealthed without dying.  But if one shatter mesmer gets anywhere near me I have to run.



Almost everybody has rolled a thief or mesmer by now.  Some have both.  Since arenanet seems to love to keep strong class imbalances, why not play one or the other?
Errr I mean, everybody that plays thief/mesmer is super skilled and everybody else needs to L2P to beat them, DUH!  What was i thinking, you're totally right; just like alll the other trolls that dont want to get nerfed.

[Kutsus]

mydixienormus, on 26 October 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

I dont play a necro.  It was just an example of arenanets piss poor priority.  They literally shit on classes not that good and then buff thief/mesmer.  They will break a broken class further, but wont nerf the overpowered ones.

I wont do spvp unless I am on my bunker mesmer.  I'd like to play my main, but it sucks compared to mesmer.  Really, only a shatter mesmer can counter my bunker mesmer...

I have lots of fun in WvW playing my condition thief and dagger storming into large groups of enemies and teleporting/running away stealthed without dying.  But if one shatter mesmer gets anywhere near me I have to run.



Almost everybody has rolled a thief or mesmer by now.  Some have both.  Since arenanet seems to love to keep strong class imbalances, why not play one or the other?
Errr I mean, everybody that plays thief/mesmer is super skilled and everybody else needs to L2P to beat them, DUH!  What was i thinking, you're totally right; just like alll the other trolls that dont want to get nerfed.

So you're a combination of numbers 1 and 2, doubling up on the QQ! (and the pointless anger)

Also, you're missing the point of this thread. It's either flying over your head or you are willfully ignorant just for an excuse to whine. Not once did I say that any classes are not OP'd. My suggestion is to learn to counter those OP'd classes via tactics, strategy, and knowledge of mechanics instead of spending all your time whining about it or bandwagonning. You become more skilled in the process and once the imbalance is gone, you'll be dominating them because of your ability to fight up hill. If your favorite class gets buffed next, enjoy being better at it than all the bandwagoners. If some other class becomes the FOTM, learn their strengths/weaknesses and win.

If you just bandwagon around every time something gets buffed or nerfed, you're never going to reach the skill level of others who apply themselves to learning what they're up against and how to avoid it.

Edited by Kutsus, 26 October 2012 - 09:30 PM.

[mydixienormus]

Kutsus, on 26 October 2012 - 09:29 PM, said:

So you're a combination of numbers 1 and 2, doubling up on the QQ! (and the pointless anger)

Also, you're missing the point of this thread. It's either flying over your head or you are willfully ignorant just for an excuse to whine. Not once did I say that any classes are not OP'd. My suggestion is to learn to counter those OP'd classes via tactics, strategy, and knowledge of mechanics instead of spending all your time whining about it or bandwagonning. You become more skilled in the process and once the imbalance is gone, you'll be dominating them because of your ability to fight up hill. If your favorite class gets buffed next, enjoy being better at it than all the bandwagoners. If some other class becomes the FOTM, learn their strengths/weaknesses and win.

The point of your thread is to troll, I got it already.  You also dont want your overpowered class to be nerfed, I got that too; right away as well.

But there is very few actual counters, and even less legitimate ones.
1 - Play overpowered defensive/bunker specs (not every class can bunker up and win)
2 - bring more than one person and have them res you when you go down
3 - hope your opponent thief/mesmer is terrible and you can massively outplay the overpoweredness
4 - run away, if you can even get away

Quote

If you just bandwagon around every time something gets buffed or nerfed

When have thieves or mesmers been nerfed to the point of where the op specs were no longer good?

When have worthless professions been buffed?

Quote

never going to reach the skill level of others who apply themselves to learning what they're up against and how to avoid it.

What skill?  This game takes skill?  Really?  Are we playing the same game?

Edited by mydixienormus, 26 October 2012 - 10:51 PM.

[Hep]

The entire point of this thread assumes FotM complaints live solely in the realm of people losing to them. This isn't true. Some of us simply want skill to be the trumping factor, and to have the skill-to-reward ratio roughly equivalent for all professions. All other things being equal, I should do as well playing versus one profession as I do the others. Likewise, I should perform as well playing one profession as I do the others.

There are more complications than that, such as how a profession works with others to accomplish team tasks or maybe I "get" one profession more than another, but that's the basic gist of it. It explains why these "get better" threads are trash - they ignore fair play and the worth of keeping the effort-to-reward ratio intact.

[Kutsus]

Hep, on 26 October 2012 - 11:05 PM, said:

The entire point of this thread assumes FotM complaints live solely in the realm of people losing to them. This isn't true. Some of us simply want skill to be the trumping factor, and to have the skill-to-reward ratio roughly equivalent for all professions. All other things being equal, I should do as well playing versus one profession as I do the others. Likewise, I should perform as well playing one profession as I do the others.

Please do yourself a favor and go play a FPS or MOBA. There has never in history been a MMO that was balanced on the level you're asking for and never will be. Diversity breeds imbalance, no matter how hard the developers try.

If you want to take enjoyment from MMO pvp, realize that you will not always be on an even footing with your opponent and you never know what you're going to run into. Their class/build might be a counter to yours or yours might be a counter to theirs. Skill comes in the form of quickly and properly dealing with those situations.

[Hep]

Kutsus, on 26 October 2012 - 11:12 PM, said:

Please do yourself a favor and go play a FPS or MOBA. There has never in history been a MMO that was balanced on the level you're asking for and never will be. Diversity breeds imbalance, no matter how hard the developers try.

If you want to take enjoyment from MMO pvp, realize that you will not always be on an even footing with your opponent and you never know what you're going to run into. Their class/build might be a counter to yours or yours might be a counter to theirs. Skill comes in the form of quickly and properly dealing with those situations.

I realize that it's impossible to achieve perfection. That fact is a lousy reason not to try, though. And your whole "skill is in the form of reaction" rebuttal completely misses the point. Again, it's a comparison not between me and the opponent, it's a comparison between opponent A and opponent B. If opponent A has to put less effort into your reaction scenario than opponent B, then that's an issue. If I need to put more effort into countering opponent A than opponent B, then it's an issue.

It may be an insurmountable issue to completely eliminate because of your first paragraph's statement, but it's by no means something we should just give up on trying to achieve. ie, your "that's just the way it is" attitude isn't the "correct" or "best" one.

[Kutsus]

Hep, on 27 October 2012 - 12:44 AM, said:

I realize that it's impossible to achieve perfection. That fact is a lousy reason not to try, though. And your whole "skill is in the form of reaction" rebuttal completely misses the point. Again, it's a comparison not between me and the opponent, it's a comparison between opponent A and opponent B. If opponent A has to put less effort into your reaction scenario than opponent B, then that's an issue. If I need to put more effort into countering opponent A than opponent B, then it's an issue.

It may be an insurmountable issue to completely eliminate because of your first paragraph's statement, but it's by no means something we should just give up on trying to achieve. ie, your "that's just the way it is" attitude isn't the "correct" or "best" one.

My attitude is that we should try to work around it until changes are made instead of just whining. Anet is obviously aware of what is going on and will make changes in their own time. You seem to be aware that you can counteract a lot of what's overpowered and you explain that you are trying to adapt, so I hope it's obvious to you that my post isn't directed at you. I also hope you can understand that I want as much balance as possible also, but I'm realistic in how much my opinion counts.

I once had a GF who exemplifies my target audience. She would come home from work and whine about various things and she didn't want to fix them or mitigate them. If I offered a possible solution in an attempt to brainstorm and see how we could make it better, she would rage. Doesn't this ring a bell?

[Hep]

Let's put it this way: this is the internet. I think they're gonna get about as much traction on their complaints about the system as you are on your complaints about the complaints about the system.

[Ritualist]

The ultimate counter is to always stop playing PvP.

[General Typhus]

ITT: OP is a thief

[Kutsus]

General Typhus, on 28 October 2012 - 04:21 AM, said:

ITT: OP is a thief

OP has 3 level 80s and has had to L2P against thieves on all of them. Do you really think I have some agenda with this post because one of them is a thief?

Edited by Kutsus, 28 October 2012 - 10:49 AM.

[PresidentsBushes]

Kutsus, on 26 October 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

I'm starting with the assumption that the vast majority of us play this game as recreation, to enjoy ourselves and let off some steam. So with that in mind, let's also remember there will always be something considered overpowered and FOTM as balancing takes place. MMOs are never perfectly balanced by nature.

Would you rather spend all your time whining about the FOTM, hopping around playing whatever is FOTM and defending it, or just playing what you like and learning to hard counter all the bandwagoners? This is a serious question, because it seems like 95% around here will choose options 1 or 2 without even giving 3 consideration.

Think about the impact on yourself.

• Being angry about something you can't change directly is just going to make you frustrated. Sure, you can go vent/whine on the forums but you're still sitting around mad all night when you're supposed to be enjoying yourself.
  
  
• Rerolling the FOTM is a common choice. If you can't beat them, join them. But then you get bored because you're the same as everybody else or even worse, your constant bandwagonning leaves you battling the learning curve and people who have chosen option 3 walk all over you because they're masters of their class.
  
  
• Theorycraft with others, test abilities, test builds and discover what the FOTM is weak against, then capitalize on it using the class that you enjoy and are most familiar with. Not only are you winning a lot more, but you're proud of yourself for beating the big bad overpowered people.

That's all I have to say, GL all.

necromancer staff + sceptor or axe, + well build beats all classes. That is all.

Edited by PresidentsBushes, 29 October 2012 - 02:49 AM.

[Ruufio]

Not sure if serious but Wells are one of the weakest PvP builds I've ever seen. All you need to do is not stand in them and voila. IMO the Wells are only good for PvE except the Well that converts Boons on enemies into Conditions. But even then... they gonna stand in it for 5 seconds?

[Xom GW2]

Yes you can counter average/below average players rolling FoTM classes if you are good with your class.   No you cant counter massive balance issues, for example a GW1 Paragon no matter how godlike the player behind it was is an example of a class that was never never was a longterm (or even short term) part of a team at high level play.

Some balance issues are so large they cant be countered.   When you get into hardcore Tpvp you will see this.

You will find at higher level play the well build is very very very weak because people dont stand in the wells.  (my main is necro)  If your goal is just to spvp and wvw then you can do fine with any class you put effort into.   If you goal is to do well at top level play you need to play a top level class or at least a middle of the ground class that fills a needed roll.

[omar316]

mydixienormus, on 26 October 2012 - 09:04 PM, said:

I dont play a necro.  It was just an example of arenanets piss poor priority.  They literally shit on classes not that good and then buff thief/mesmer.  They will break a broken class further, but wont nerf the overpowered ones.

I wont do spvp unless I am on my bunker mesmer.  I'd like to play my main, but it sucks compared to mesmer.  Really, only a shatter mesmer can counter my bunker mesmer...

I have lots of fun in WvW playing my condition thief and dagger storming into large groups of enemies and teleporting/running away stealthed without dying.  But if one shatter mesmer gets anywhere near me I have to run.



Almost everybody has rolled a thief or mesmer by now.  Some have both.  Since arenanet seems to love to keep strong class imbalances, why not play one or the other?
Errr I mean, everybody that plays thief/mesmer is super skilled and everybody else needs to L2P to beat them, DUH!  What was i thinking, you're totally right; just like alll the other trolls that dont want to get nerfed.

This lol. Its annoying to know what these classes can do and how well they can do it. On hot joins I can tank 2 or 3 melee classes easy rofl. I dont even have build, its the default standard Mesmer build. Made a Mesmer for the heck of it and won 2 rounds of a tounament. Standard stuff and I just bought a staff, played him less than 5 hours and I'm winning hot joins. L O L class.

[off3nc3]

+1 for Kutsus opening thread , too bad this forum is the only reliable and not brain dead source for gw2 because the official forum is still infested with omg thiefs heartseeker is OP , full stealth thief builds everywhere and mess like that. This is why I like this game that you can always counter anything if you spec , trait and improve yourself with other classes. Also people need to not judge the balance of the game from HotJoin pvp because we need to limit the classes down to be atleast a bit more balanced. The thief QQ is starting to get to me , people seem to overlook the mesmer shatters , immortal bunker builds and alot more uncommon builds out there.

[rukh]

Kutsus, on 26 October 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

Would you rather spend all your time whining about the FOTM, hopping around playing whatever is FOTM and defending it, or just playing what you like and learning to hard counter all the bandwagoners?

I would rather play the class/build that is most enjoyable and fits my personal playstyle.  Unfortunately there is a slim chance that this choice happens to be one of the hardcounters to the FOTM.  So you are asking me if I would rather complain or if I want to play rock-paper-scissors against (or as) FOTM with builds I may not even enjoy.  Build Wars 2 anyone?

Edited by rukh, 29 October 2012 - 05:08 PM.

[Kutsus]

rukh, on 29 October 2012 - 04:09 PM, said:

I would rather play the class/build that is most enjoyable and fits my personal playstyle.  Unfortunately there is a slim chance that this choice happens to be one of the hardcounters to the FOTM.  So you are asking me if I would rather complain or if I want to play rock-paper-scissors against (or as) FOTM with builds I may not even enjoy.  Build Wars 2 anyone?

Let's be realistic here... Can you give me an example of a MMO where there are no builds that perform better or worse than others against different enemy builds?

[Pichuxlenger]

So how do i counter a mesmer?

[Kutsus]

Pichuxlenger, on 29 October 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

So how do i counter a mesmer?

Depends on your class and the Mesmer's build. General stuff that applies to any class if they're a shatter or phantasm build is this: AOE damage - put pressure on them while keeping their clones down. If you see clones come running at you, dodge away and make sure they die before they reach you. Dodge a phantasm's first attack and kill it before it attacks again, they can easily hit for 4k per attack round. If the mesmer pulls out his sword/pistol, he's probably going to stun you with the pistol ability then use the immobilize/teleport clone > blurred frenzy + shatter on you. It's a burst combo that is nullified by a stunbreak or stability and GTFO or evasion/dmg absorb ability. If they hold their hand up in the air for a stupid long cast time, interrupt it. It's MOA (best way to get accustomed to the animation is to make a mesmer, go to the mists and cast it a few times). If they stealth, expect them to moa you while stealthed and be ready to LOS them until it's down. The main counter to moa is a combination of LOS and dodge rolls to avoid being CC'd.

Then for your build, you need things that allow you to play the above counters: AOE damage, stunbreaks, gap opener of any kind, condition removals are a plus for confusion.

[RandolfRa]

Spoiler

Pichuxlenger, on 29 October 2012 - 06:21 PM, said:

So how do i counter a mesmer?

Thief or another mesmer is your best bet.

Anyway, on topic, just because something can be countered, does not mean that you shouldn't cry about it in the forums. Basically because such a counter usually sucks against everything else expect the particular build it was designed against. Like, if in GW1 eviscerate would require 3 adrenaline, it

Kutsus, on 29 October 2012 - 06:42 PM, said:

Depends on your class and the Mesmer's build. General stuff that applies to any class if they're a shatter or phantasm build is this: AOE damage - put pressure on them while keeping their clones down. If you see clones come running at you, dodge away and make sure they die before they reach you. Dodge a phantasm's first attack and kill it before it attacks again, they can easily hit for 4k per attack round. If the mesmer pulls out his sword/pistol, he's probably going to stun you with the pistol ability then use the immobilize/teleport clone > blurred frenzy + shatter on you. It's a burst combo that is nullified by a stunbreak or stability and GTFO or evasion/dmg absorb ability. If they hold their hand up in the air for a stupid long cast time, interrupt it. It's MOA (best way to get accustomed to the animation is to make a mesmer, go to the mists and cast it a few times). If they stealth, expect them to moa you while stealthed and be ready to LOS them until it's down. The main counter to moa is a combination of LOS and dodge rolls to avoid being CC'd.

Those are good general tricks against a mesmer. However, I don't think they really solve our problem of OP classes as those tricks could just as easily be performed by another mesmer, except for the AOE. AOE however, is generally weak in pvp. The issue with OP classes isn't that they can't be countered, but that there exists no good reason to play anything else.

I play mesmer mainly. I'm ok with mesmer being nerffed as long as they nerf thief as well. It bugs me that mesmer is becoming the most common class now.

Edited by RandolfRa, 29 October 2012 - 08:37 PM.