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There are counters for everything, even the FOTM


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#31 CepaCepa

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 08:33 PM

View Postomar316, on 29 October 2012 - 07:02 AM, said:

This lol. Its annoying to know what these classes can do and how well they can do it. On hot joins I can tank 2 or 3 melee classes easy rofl. I dont even have build, its the default standard Mesmer build. Made a Mesmer for the heck of it and won 2 rounds of a tounament. Standard stuff and I just bought a staff, played him less than 5 hours and I'm winning hot joins. L O L class.

Well, see, the default mesmer build is not a shatter build. Shatter mesmer is what people have been crying about. The fact that you can tank 2 or 3 opponents at once (well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "tank" --- Yeah you can hold 2 enemies at bay for a while, but down/stomp them both? That would be very unlikely if they've dealt with mesmers before) in that default specc simply means either they're not that good, OR that they themselves are defensively specced. While most new players have trouble against mesmers in general due to not being able to tell apart their clones, this is amongst the first things that an experienced player learns, and a default mesmer build can be quite easily taken out by experienced players due to lack of burst damage + lack of defensive skills once they see through your clones. People have been crying about shatter mesmers in particular, because the burst damage is so high that sometimes there's nothing you can do about it, this is not true for ANY mesmer builds. So if you're saying rerolling a random spec mesmer automatically gives you wins (which, again, is not true for structured PvP), that actually does not support most people's argument.

I mean, shatter mesmer may very likely get a nerf of some kind, along with thieves. Just saying, mesmer can be really, really bad in both higher level PvP and PvE if you're not specced correctly or if you're not using the right skills at the right times. A defensively specced mesmer in PvE does <1K dps on mobs, yet a full offensive mesmer can go up to 6-7K dps. If you're not careful and dodged while you have 3 phantasms up (instead of anticipating the dodge, and cast phantasm afterward for example), oops you just lost 2K damage per second for the next 15 seconds. Just going in there hitting random buttons is nowhere near what an optimized mesmer can do, and no other profession has that much difference in damage output --- mesmer can easily be the lowest damage out of all professions in bad situations, and highest single target damage in best scenarios; as a mesmer, not knowing the differences between all the details is going to cost you a lot without you yourself even realizing it. My guess is that the only reason that you were able to do quite alright in hot join is that, well, it's hot join and people haven't figured out how to tell a clone apart from you yet. :) If you want to see what people have been crying about, specc your mesmer 20 20 0 0 30 with emphasis on shatter, get full Berserker, and now pick 1v1 or 2v2 fights in hot joins. You simply need to experience both to know how big the difference really is.

Edited by CepaCepa, 29 October 2012 - 09:03 PM.


#32 Kutsus

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Posted 29 October 2012 - 09:52 PM

View PostRandolfRa, on 29 October 2012 - 08:27 PM, said:

Those are good general tricks against a mesmer. However, I don't think they really solve our problem of OP classes as those tricks could just as easily be performed by another mesmer, except for the AOE. AOE however, is generally weak in pvp. The issue with OP classes isn't that they can't be countered, but that there exists no good reason to play anything else.

I never made the implication that it solves the problem of OP classes, but it helps to solve the problem of frustration when you have a way to take them out. AOE is strong in many situations in PvP, but just to name a few: area denial (capture points), team fights, thieves guild, mesmer clones.

Builds with the tools to counter bursty thieves and mesmers are actually very strong to play in spvp (especially hot join) because the majority of your enemies are going to be what you're aiming to kill. The big things to look for in countering shatter mesmers are mostly the same for thieves. CC breaks, AOE damage, stability, evasion/immunity, gap openers/closers. These universally apply to a strong anti gimmick burst builds.

Edited by Kutsus, 29 October 2012 - 09:56 PM.


#33 Trishian

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 10:12 AM

View PostKutsus, on 29 October 2012 - 09:52 PM, said:

I never made the implication that it solves the problem of OP classes, but it helps to solve the problem of frustration when you have a way to take them out. AOE is strong in many situations in PvP, but just to name a few: area denial (capture points), team fights, thieves guild, mesmer clones.

Builds with the tools to counter bursty thieves and mesmers are actually very strong to play in spvp (especially hot join) because the majority of your enemies are going to be what you're aiming to kill. The big things to look for in countering shatter mesmers are mostly the same for thieves. CC breaks, AOE damage, stability, evasion/immunity, gap openers/closers. These universally apply to a strong anti gimmick burst builds.

this^

Yesterday i played Hotjoin tPvP in khylo we meet guild runing AoE Ele  hows destroy treb with AoE dmg, me as mesmer coulnd kill him, clone and phantoms died in 3s of 2/3 AoE at once, in addition he haved low HP poll, but high toughness/Healing/power i coulnd drop his health lower than 20%.. so i just run treb/kit and he just w8 at treb for me.. ~~'

Also Proff that can counter Mess/thief if build/play is proper:
-Gs/Hammer Guardians, if mesmer suck at clon position its easy win for them... boom no clone at all
-Elementalist S/D  and stronk dance between attuments, lots aoe to kill illusions (tbh on 100 tPvP i saw meybe 3 good ele..)
-Bunker enginer..to.. much... AoE.. =_=
-Rangers also can be a pain for mesmser if they know what they're doing, they are like memers, they have stable dmg its not like it can by avoided easy.

Proff thats can do shit
-any player that think he is God and can beat any1
-Players that dont uderstand PvP /class mechanic
-Necro- they dont have any weapon to kill illusion, and offen use all skills on clones..
-Warrior- they have direct AoE, and combo, combo thats dont work on Mesmers duo to decoy and blink

Edited by Trishian, 30 October 2012 - 10:13 AM.


#34 omar316

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 01:53 PM

View PostCepaCepa, on 29 October 2012 - 08:33 PM, said:

Well, see, the default mesmer build is not a shatter build. Shatter mesmer is what people have been crying about. The fact that you can tank 2 or 3 opponents at once (well, I guess it depends on what you mean by "tank" --- Yeah you can hold 2 enemies at bay for a while, but down/stomp them both? That would be very unlikely if they've dealt with mesmers before) in that default specc simply means either they're not that good, OR that they themselves are defensively specced. While most new players have trouble against mesmers in general due to not being able to tell apart their clones, this is amongst the first things that an experienced player learns, and a default mesmer build can be quite easily taken out by experienced players due to lack of burst damage + lack of defensive skills once they see through your clones. People have been crying about shatter mesmers in particular, because the burst damage is so high that sometimes there's nothing you can do about it, this is not true for ANY mesmer builds. So if you're saying rerolling a random spec mesmer automatically gives you wins (which, again, is not true for structured PvP), that actually does not support most people's argument.

I mean, shatter mesmer may very likely get a nerf of some kind, along with thieves. Just saying, mesmer can be really, really bad in both higher level PvP and PvE if you're not specced correctly or if you're not using the right skills at the right times. A defensively specced mesmer in PvE does <1K dps on mobs, yet a full offensive mesmer can go up to 6-7K dps. If you're not careful and dodged while you have 3 phantasms up (instead of anticipating the dodge, and cast phantasm afterward for example), oops you just lost 2K damage per second for the next 15 seconds. Just going in there hitting random buttons is nowhere near what an optimized mesmer can do, and no other profession has that much difference in damage output --- mesmer can easily be the lowest damage out of all professions in bad situations, and highest single target damage in best scenarios; as a mesmer, not knowing the differences between all the details is going to cost you a lot without you yourself even realizing it. My guess is that the only reason that you were able to do quite alright in hot join is that, well, it's hot join and people haven't figured out how to tell a clone apart from you yet. :) If you want to see what people have been crying about, specc your mesmer 20 20 0 0 30 with emphasis on shatter, get full Berserker, and now pick 1v1 or 2v2 fights in hot joins. You simply need to experience both to know how big the difference really is.

I think you missed my point.
I don't main a mesmer. I haven't seen a mesmer except as an opponent with no idea of builds and abilities. I go into a a random tournament and I won. I constantly dominated hot joins with a class I played barely 5 hours.

It took me more than 20 games to nail down a build I can own face with my Warrior. It took me 1 game to own 2 melee faces in my first mesmer game.

Easy mode class is easy mode class.

#35 megamacka

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 02:01 PM

I was majorly disappointed with this game so I don't play it too much. But I've seen a lot of QQ about pistol whip and heartseeker.
I dunno what everyone is talking about, I have absolutely 0 problem with them in pvp and tournaments on my ele, necro and guardian.

  No problems with mesmers either. I don't really have problems with any profession, mostly play on my necro.

Edited by megamacka, 30 October 2012 - 02:02 PM.


#36 Rouzeki

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 04:54 PM

View PostKorra, on 26 October 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

What's the actual FOTM? I barely see any HS naab anymore, besides of some bad thiefs that go always with a zerg and HS you to death.

In hot-join it is easily the shatter mesmer, followed by the D/D thief, followed by the bunker guardian.  These three classes dominate (not in skill but in sheer numbers) the 8v8 matches.  I enjoy my mesmer but can't even play it because I join a game and I'm the seventh one in the match...gross.

#37 CepaCepa

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Posted 30 October 2012 - 05:57 PM

View Postomar316, on 30 October 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

I think you missed my point.
I don't main a mesmer. I haven't seen a mesmer except as an opponent with no idea of builds and abilities. I go into a a random tournament and I won. I constantly dominated hot joins with a class I played barely 5 hours.

It took me more than 20 games to nail down a build I can own face with my Warrior. It took me 1 game to own 2 melee faces in my first mesmer game.

Easy mode class is easy mode class.

My argument is this: if you're using the default mesmer build/gear and you own 2 melee faces in your first mesmer game, those two melee faces are horribad.

Shatter mesmer is easy when you set up everything and you're the one opening, just a sequence of skills and in seconds your enemy would be dead. I don't doubt that. But you're not a shatter mesmer in that default build --- In which case, you'd have not enough strong burst, not enough survivability, and the only thing that would let you "own faces" is the fact that most people in hot joins still haven't figured out how to tell a clone from a mesmer yet. If you play a none FOTM mesmer and win against good players, that is by no means easy.

The fact is, if you don't go phantasm heavy, confusion heavy, or shatter burst, mesmers are not hard to take out. They simply do not do enough damage otherwise. Annoying? Yes. That's about it. Again, wait until you actually meet an opponent who can tell apart clones and yourself.

I don't get your easy mode analogy. All you've proven is that mesmers in general are great against newbies (since they can't tell apart clones), just like a warriors for a newbie who hasn't figured out how to dodge thousand blade. I can take out a default build mesmer with my ele, my guardian, my enigneer, or my shatter mesmer any time, any day. I say this because I do this a lot, It's not like there's a shortage of bandwagon mesmers in PvP right now. Really the only mesmers that are very dangerous are those ones with a fleshed out build/spec, and if those fleshed out builds are in the hands of someone who knows his stuff, it can be borderline overpowered, and hence there's so much complaints (rightfully I may add) about them.

I'm a shatter mesmer, I don't mind some adjustments. Because I've been a shatter mesmer since BWE2, I like the pace of that play style and I'm good at it, I'll play it even if it is subpar to other specs, and I'll be able to win some fights no matter what due to experience. Like the OP said, it just so happens that my favourite spec is now amazingly good, but even if it isn't, I'd still be running it anyways.

Edited by CepaCepa, 30 October 2012 - 06:09 PM.


#38 omar316

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 05:25 AM

View PostCepaCepa, on 30 October 2012 - 05:57 PM, said:

My argument is this: if you're using the default mesmer build/gear and you own 2 melee faces in your first mesmer game, those two melee faces are horribad.

Shatter mesmer is easy when you set up everything and you're the one opening, just a sequence of skills and in seconds your enemy would be dead. I don't doubt that. But you're not a shatter mesmer in that default build --- In which case, you'd have not enough strong burst, not enough survivability, and the only thing that would let you "own faces" is the fact that most people in hot joins still haven't figured out how to tell a clone from a mesmer yet. If you play a none FOTM mesmer and win against good players, that is by no means easy.

The fact is, if you don't go phantasm heavy, confusion heavy, or shatter burst, mesmers are not hard to take out. They simply do not do enough damage otherwise. Annoying? Yes. That's about it. Again, wait until you actually meet an opponent who can tell apart clones and yourself.

I don't get your easy mode analogy. All you've proven is that mesmers in general are great against newbies (since they can't tell apart clones), just like a warriors for a newbie who hasn't figured out how to dodge thousand blade. I can take out a default build mesmer with my ele, my guardian, my enigneer, or my shatter mesmer any time, any day. I say this because I do this a lot, It's not like there's a shortage of bandwagon mesmers in PvP right now. Really the only mesmers that are very dangerous are those ones with a fleshed out build/spec, and if those fleshed out builds are in the hands of someone who knows his stuff, it can be borderline overpowered, and hence there's so much complaints (rightfully I may add) about them.

I'm a shatter mesmer, I don't mind some adjustments. Because I've been a shatter mesmer since BWE2, I like the pace of that play style and I'm good at it, I'll play it even if it is subpar to other specs, and I'll be able to win some fights no matter what due to experience. Like the OP said, it just so happens that my favourite spec is now amazingly good, but even if it isn't, I'd still be running it anyways.

Precisely the point. They are easy mode for both nubs and well rounded players alike.
In regards to the 100B comment.

I really would like you to test a warrior's 100B in sPvP and come back to me. 100B is the easiest to dodge period. There is no way a player will get hit for the full 100B.

The only way 100B is going to be effective is Bull charge>Frenzy>100B or Bull charge>100B or any stun lock/root lock > 100B. Or dumb people whom I 100B with while rezzing some other guy.

Again I only created a Mesmer less than a week ago, which means we should have a good sample size of people with varying skills who know about almost all classes. Well it does not matter if they know about the abilities in my given example, because I am on the same skill level as them. Example, you main a mesmer but have no idea about a Warrior. Likewise I am a Warrior with no experience of a mesmer.

We go in the mesmer is going to win. It's insanely easy to rock people with mesmers. The worst part is it was not even a 1v1. I go into the game and rock out 2 melees. On my 1st game. In a game where sPvP is 2 months mature. I do not think that there will be so many people in the 2 tournaments and about 6 games I played which I was rocking so many of them on my nub Mesmer, who are all 1st time players trying out the class.

The learning curve to skill curve is is just ridiculously low. Meaning OP class at any given time with a person smart enough to press 1 to 5 intelligently.

Did you know I had no idea how that charged heal workd for like 10 to 15 games, thats on my 2nd day, I didn't even bother to read the tool tip, until I realised I needed to know how to heal, and then worst I was rocking out even more people.

#39 Xom GW2

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 06:38 AM

View Postomar316, on 30 October 2012 - 01:53 PM, said:

I think you missed my point.
I don't main a mesmer. I haven't seen a mesmer except as an opponent with no idea of builds and abilities. I go into a a random tournament and I won. I constantly dominated hot joins with a class I played barely 5 hours.

It took me more than 20 games to nail down a build I can own face with my Warrior. It took me 1 game to own 2 melee faces in my first mesmer game.

Easy mode class is easy mode class.

Yeah same thing happened to me with the first time I played mesmer I messed around with traits a little went in and topped ever single game effortlessly.   I never tried a thief so cant comment on it but from what I have played Necro (main) warrior, ranger, ele and eng.... Mesmer is the easiest class in the game to play well.   Shatter is only one viable spec there are others, so no point in bitching about shatter the whole class needs balancing mulitple builds. Any of you that main a mesmer and think you are good need a reality check make a ranger or a necro or ele and see what you can do.  Even a warrior takes much more skill then a mesmer. Mesmer is the most forgiving class in the game you have to be totally inapt at PvP to not dominate as a mesmer.   That said I'm playing mes more and more these days and am making a pve one for WvW, Anet has a history of leaving OP classes that way and leaving UP classes that way for years and in the case of the paragon forever.

#40 CepaCepa

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 06:46 AM

View Postomar316, on 31 October 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

Precisely the point. They are easy mode for both nubs and well rounded players alike.
In regards to the 100B comment.

I really would like you to test a warrior's 100B in sPvP and come back to me. 100B is the easiest to dodge period. There is no way a player will get hit for the full 100B.

The only way 100B is going to be effective is Bull charge>Frenzy>100B or Bull charge>100B or any stun lock/root lock > 100B. Or dumb people whom I 100B with while rezzing some other guy.

Again I only created a Mesmer less than a week ago, which means we should have a good sample size of people with varying skills who know about almost all classes. Well it does not matter if they know about the abilities in my given example, because I am on the same skill level as them. Example, you main a mesmer but have no idea about a Warrior. Likewise I am a Warrior with no experience of a mesmer.

We go in the mesmer is going to win. It's insanely easy to rock people with mesmers. The worst part is it was not even a 1v1. I go into the game and rock out 2 melees. On my 1st game. In a game where sPvP is 2 months mature. I do not think that there will be so many people in the 2 tournaments and about 6 games I played which I was rocking so many of them on my nub Mesmer, who are all 1st time players trying out the class.

The learning curve to skill curve is is just ridiculously low. Meaning OP class at any given time with a person smart enough to press 1 to 5 intelligently.

Did you know I had no idea how that charged heal workd for like 10 to 15 games, thats on my 2nd day, I didn't even bother to read the tool tip, until I realised I needed to know how to heal, and then worst I was rocking out even more people.

... Yes I know how to dodge the warrior's 100B, that's like PvP 101. The only case that I'd get caught in a full 100B is when I have everything on CD and that warrior just immobilized/stunned me beforehand. For that to happen, that warrior needs to be approximately counting the CDs that I've used, such that he can catch me right after my CDs are gone. And the only way for me to not at least save one escape when dueling a 100B warrior is if he is pushing out some big pressure beforehand and I've messed up a dodge or too hence taking those damages, forcing myself to blow CDs early. But no, a player randomly running up to me and start doing 100B will not do much damage, that's precisely the point.

A new player would have no idea of what 100B is or how to counter it, and stand there without dodging. Or they wouldn't know what a "stun breaker" is and eat the whole duration of 100B whenever you throw out a stun beforehand. Same thing is applied to mesmers, new players simply don't know how to tell apart a mesmer's clones vs the mesmer himself, gets confused every time a clone is made, of course they'll lose in that situation. Hence, as a new mesmer you can win against other NEW players when you've got no idea which buttons you're hitting.

New players would therefore complain that warriors are "OP" because "100B hits too hard". It's not like we haven't seen that kind of threads 2 month ago. And new players will also think that "any mesmer is OP" because "they all have clones which you can't tell apart". That's the comparison.

I've stated before that yes, at low experience/skill level mesmers wins a lot, no argument. So do thieves and 100B warriors. I hope that's not the context for which we'd base our points from, because I do not intend to stay at that "new player" level forever, nor do I wish to always play against others at that level. I'm talking about the next step where people actually use their stun breakers and dodge, where they actually can tell a clone apart from a mesmer. Suddenly, you need specific builds to be "OP" --- Such as unicorn thief and shatter mesmer. At this level you'll find that carelessly casting 1-5 as a mesmer will get you killed much more than any other profession in the game. Mesmer is strong only in the hands of those who knows how to use it, the rest is mediocre at best. Your conclusion, therefore, should be that "mesmer is easy class when played by and played against novice players".

At this rate we're not going to come to an agreement, you're going to keep thinking that mesmer, no matter the spec or build, is "easy class". If you do think so, by all means bring your mesmer into tournaments and level him up in PvE in that default spec, it should be a breeze for you.

I'm curious though, how do you know what the learning curve to skill curve of mesmer is? Apparently as you've mentioned yourself, you neither did any learning nor have any skill in this profession, so how would you know what the curve looks like? And while you're at it, since the mesmer has a "ridiculously low" curve, which profession in your mind has the highest curve then? Warrior?

Edited by CepaCepa, 31 October 2012 - 07:57 AM.


#41 CepaCepa

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 07:17 AM

View PostXom GW2, on 31 October 2012 - 06:38 AM, said:

Yeah same thing happened to me with the first time I played mesmer I messed around with traits a little went in and topped ever single game effortlessly.   I never tried a thief so cant comment on it but from what I have played Necro (main) warrior, ranger, ele and eng.... Mesmer is the easiest class in the game to play well.   Shatter is only one viable spec there are others, so no point in bitching about shatter the whole class needs balancing mulitple builds. Any of you that main a mesmer and think you are good need a reality check make a ranger or a necro or ele and see what you can do.  Even a warrior takes much more skill then a mesmer. Mesmer is the most forgiving class in the game you have to be totally inapt at PvP to not dominate as a mesmer.   That said I'm playing mes more and more these days and am making a pve one for WvW, Anet has a history of leaving OP classes that way and leaving UP classes that way for years and in the case of the paragon forever.

By all means, level up your mesmer in PvE, and I hope you'd have no complaints whatsoever about it. :)

As for a reality check, I am saying these things not because I win against others in 1v1 or 2v2 or 5v5 or WvW with my mesmer, but the fact that I also do so consistently with my ele, my engineer, and my guardian. Ultimately, if a player is new to his profession, he will lose to me, even if he is a shatter mesmer or unicorn thief, and regardless of which profession I'm playing on.

Nowadays, since there are so many mesmers and guardians out there, I kind of shelved my mesmer/guardian and mostly PvP on my ele and engineer. After all, nothing's more fun than playing the "under dog" and take your enemies by surprise anyways. And it's quite easy to tell apart new mesmers that come into the games thinking "mesmer is easy" --- They are the ones that I can kill easily with my health never dropping down to 1/2. Do you realize what exactly makes your mesmer win? Or what exactly make your other characters lose to a mesmer? If you don't even know that, how exactly do you propose even a reasonable comparison?

If you're having trouble with mesmers who just started that character, then likely what you've said is true: if that is what you consider as "OP", mesmers will likely be "OP" for the duration of this game. If you get stuck at telling apart the real mesmer from the clones, then that's too bad --- Fixing this problem would require some serious change to the mesmer profession, which I doubt ArenaNet will do. You know, since making illusions is what a mesmer is supposed to do. What would you like, auto-targeting on the real mesmer whenever you encounter one?

Anyways, why am I getting sucked into this argument? Look, nevermind, play your game the way you like it, there's no need for me to convince you of anything and there's no point of all these subjective statements throwing without basis into thin air. I now fully agree that mesmers need a gigantic nerf to the ground, for that matter nerf eles, guardians, and engineer too. I mean it. This is so that all the bandwagon newbies can go away and stop spoiling the fun for the characters that I've spent 600+ hours on, in my opinion that's a trade off well worth the sacrifice. :)

Edited by CepaCepa, 31 October 2012 - 07:39 AM.


#42 Xom GW2

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:02 AM

The 1v1 power of a mes is not even the real issue, all the spvp heros talking about countering the mes etc etc are not on the same page as people that really want a balanced healthy tpvp format.

Mesmer is not just a strong 1v1 class its an outstanding team class in the tpvp formats and can turn fights with group quickness or moa like no other class.  Not to mention portals, mesmer can also spec glass cannon in Tpvp without getting trained like a thief speced class in tpvp gets.   I wont waste time explaining the mesmer class and what it can do in Tpvp very few people actually tpvp vented up and compete at a high level.  

There is a reason its the most used class in Tpvp by a huge margin and spvp about as much as thief.    Its easy to play easy to master and is overpowered.

p.s. I'm not 'new' to mes have been playing it a month in spvp and tpvp my story was about when I first played it game 1 and topped.   Nothings changed since then I just top easier now and win more 2 v 1s with it.    Also Engineer is far from an underdog.... do you even Tpvp?

#43 MrForz

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 10:49 AM

I understand Cepa to an extent. Although I'd recommend the word 'uncommon' rather than 'underdog'. Even if the Elementalist has only one type of viable build it's still potent. And Engi's an unpredictable force to be reckoned with, they're just rare.

#44 Barbieslayer

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 11:42 AM

Anet should add a Doppelganger challenge like in GW1.  Providing the AI was up to snuff it could be quite amusing seeing what some of these "FOTM" builds would have to say about it if forced to fight a better version of themselves.

End of digression..

#45 Skyro

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 03:22 PM

View PostXom GW2, on 31 October 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

The 1v1 power of a mes is not even the real issue, all the spvp heros talking about countering the mes etc etc are not on the same page as people that really want a balanced healthy tpvp format.

Mesmer is not just a strong 1v1 class its an outstanding team class in the tpvp formats and can turn fights with group quickness or moa like no other class.  Not to mention portals, mesmer can also spec glass cannon in Tpvp without getting trained like a thief speced class in tpvp gets.   I wont waste time explaining the mesmer class and what it can do in Tpvp very few people actually tpvp vented up and compete at a high level.  

There is a reason its the most used class in Tpvp by a huge margin and spvp about as much as thief. Its easy to play easy to master and is overpowered.

p.s. I'm not 'new' to mes have been playing it a month in spvp and tpvp my story was about when I first played it game 1 and topped.   Nothings changed since then I just top easier now and win more 2 v 1s with it. Also Engineer is far from an underdog.... do you even Tpvp?

Uh... Guardians are by far the most common class in tPvP. I'm not sure what the 2nd most common is. It might be Mesmers but it certainly isn't by some huge margin like you suggest.

#46 sagasaint

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 05:32 PM

View PostKutsus, on 26 October 2012 - 02:23 PM, said:

The above poster is a perfect example of my point. This dude is so upset about everything, I can't imagine how he enjoys his free time playing this game. I can promise you, if you stop whining 100s of others will carry the torch of tears for you and maybe you'll be able to enjoy your day.
you should take a deep breath and actually try to read what he said. hes pretty much right.

ANet didnt shy away from doing sweeping changes during the BWEs in order to bring balance.
sometimes they nailed it (warriors and engineers), sometimes they missed the mark by a mile (rangers eles and necros).

comes release? practically nothing at all.

I can understand their point, and if you asked me 6, 5, 4 weeks ago I would have wholeheartly agreed with them. give some time for the meta to evolve.

the thing is, it hasnt evolved. not one bit. all they have achieved is an ever increasing number of FOTMs plaguing all aspects of the game. 3 classes represent, at the very least, 70% of the playerbase when it comes to PvP.

people arent meta-ing, they are bandwagoning into the current stablished meta...by the thousands...

ANet should just get off their high horse and admit that waiting for people to fix a problem will invariably worsen the problem.
they have to take a more proactive stance and actually try to shake things, unless they want this game to be called "Bunker Guardians, Mesmers and Thieves Wars 2" by 2013.

#47 CepaCepa

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 08:03 PM

View PostXom GW2, on 31 October 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

The 1v1 power of a mes is not even the real issue, all the spvp heros talking about countering the mes etc etc are not on the same page as people that really want a balanced healthy tpvp format.

Mesmer is not just a strong 1v1 class its an outstanding team class in the tpvp formats and can turn fights with group quickness or moa like no other class.  Not to mention portals, mesmer can also spec glass cannon in Tpvp without getting trained like a thief speced class in tpvp gets.   I wont waste time explaining the mesmer class and what it can do in Tpvp very few people actually tpvp vented up and compete at a high level.  

There is a reason its the most used class in Tpvp by a huge margin and spvp about as much as thief. Its easy to play easy to master and is overpowered.

p.s. I'm not 'new' to mes have been playing it a month in spvp and tpvp my story was about when I first played it game 1 and topped.   Nothings changed since then I just top easier now and win more 2 v 1s with it. Also Engineer is far from an underdog.... do you even Tpvp?

You mentioned other professions. I gave you other professions. Do I Tpvp? I suspect that last sentence is just your attempt of throwing something out to sound more aggressive and elitist hence I shouldn't even bother answering, but nevertheless here's my answer. Yes I do, lots. Did you expect me to say "no"? Now please stop raising new topics before you even tackled the previous ones. What's the point of commenting on my use of the word "underdog", which in essence means not necessarily someone weak but rather someone unexpected (hence uncommon)? Is this yet another English language debate on a game forum? Or do you have a point beside that?

Once again I restate my point: mesmer mechanisms are often situational but powerful, in the right hands and in an organized manner it is very strong. 1v1 or team fight. I've never once said that mesmer is not powerful, and I've stated several times that I'd expect balance. I wouldn't expect the balance to happen in the form of class mechanism, hence likely mesmers will remain powerful in the right hands no matter how much balance there is. By that I mean, they're probably not going to take away illusions/shatters since this is a defining mechanism for mesmers. They're likely also not going to take away temporal distortion/illusive skills from mesmers because again, that is the theme of the profession. What we'd likely see is probably duration decrease, range limitation, and other things like that --- Which won't stop clever uses of these powerful skills, and hence you'd always find a good mesmer to be a strong component of tPvP.

Now does that mean it's "easy to play"? How are you defining "easy to play" anyways? Since there's no clear metric, I assumed that you mean 1v1 win and lose. I wouldn't agree with this metric at all, but that seems to be what most of these posts are talking about. Now if you're talking about team fights, then I'd ask again: what do you mean by easy? How is "portal" easier than "net turret"? How is "illusions" easier than "virtues"? I'm honestly not even sure what you mean by this now --- Do you mean it's easier to find a tPvP group as a mesmer? Or does this go back to your "personal experience" again, without any other metric? If so, then we really can't go on with this discussion: you say it's easy, I say it's not. You don't give me anything else to work with, so I can't even comment on it.

Here's a metric that I'd propose though: take a new player, let an experienced player give him a 10 min tutorial. Now both the new player and the experienced player make a PvP character of the same profession, same build, same stats. Now let them play against each other, and observe the win/lose ratio and how it changes over time. This curve would then suggest the "knowledge" required to play that particular profession over time including knowledge of strategies as well as knowledge of the profession mechanism itself. This same metric is used by academic studies on many gaming project, so I think it's a good fit here.

Now, are you telling me the difference between a very experienced/good mesmer and a new mesmer, regardless of specs, is smaller than any other professions in the game? You seemed to suggest that you've played mesmers a lot, and no doubt you probably encountered lots and lots of other mesmers since there are so many in the game --- Do you win over those new players? If not, then I really don't see how you can "own faces in PvP" when there are that many bandwagon mesmers around who can take you out. If you do, then that just proved my point: specs matters, but for most part mesmer is not an "easy profession".

If you'd like a more theoretical approach, here it is: mesmers, with unpredictable illusion spawn locations and illusion behaviours, and with heavy emphasis on the reaction of other players, is a profession with many chaotic variables. In order to be the "best mesmer there is", you need to have strategic options lining up for this vast number of possible scenarios --- This number correlates directly to "ease of profession". Elixir engineers have random effects (for example, either stealth or stability), and those ones who have options lined up for each possibility will be the ones who stand out from the crowed (even if he's hoping for the stealth, he can quickly adapt and make the most out of it if he gets stability instead). As for mesmers, a mesmer who keeps tabs on where his illusions are, which skills is he going to use next and what kind of/where the illusion is going to spawn, as well as all the CDs on both of his weapons, will be much more efficient than a mesmer who just "cast GS 2 and 3 on CD, mind wrack on CD, switch to sword when enemy gets close and press 2". Making models of the game play for each of the professions will reveal much about their complexity --- Just like modeling a chess game, except the decision criteria and general rules obviously differ. And for these models, even before doing all the hard work, a simple search in the literature will tell you that nested chaotic variables quickly increases the complexity of a system.

Unless, if by "good mesmer" you simply mean someone who can push buttons when they're off CD.

I'm just saying, I've no idea where you get the "mesmer is easy" idea from. The complexity of the profession is what draws me into playing one, it's the same reason that I've played ele and engi because I like juggling tons of skills in quick succession to find out what works and what doesn't. Upon learning that blind/aegis guardians need to know the fight and watch everything around them (condition on mobs, boon on oneself, locations of everyone and mobs animations, etc) to be an efficient "tank" in dungeons, I got intrigued and that's where my guardian started. Mesmer is overpowered in PvP? Maybe, I've never argued against that. If ANet gives it a nerf, I'd have no problem. But easy? No. I'd like to see your proof, or your logic behind it, if that's what you insist on.

Edited by CepaCepa, 31 October 2012 - 08:13 PM.


#48 Shatteredz

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Posted 31 October 2012 - 08:30 PM

To be honest, people are calling everything besides ele and engi easy to play, just because that are the 2 classes that happen to be "hard" to play cus of more skill sets.

#49 omar316

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 03:01 AM

View PostCepaCepa, on 31 October 2012 - 08:03 PM, said:

You mentioned other professions. I gave you other professions. Do I Tpvp? I suspect that last sentence is just your attempt of throwing something out to sound more aggressive and elitist hence I shouldn't even bother answering, but nevertheless here's my answer. Yes I do, lots. Did you expect me to say "no"? Now please stop raising new topics before you even tackled the previous ones. What's the point of commenting on my use of the word "underdog", which in essence means not necessarily someone weak but rather someone unexpected (hence uncommon)? Is this yet another English language debate on a game forum? Or do you have a point beside that?

Once again I restate my point: mesmer mechanisms are often situational but powerful, in the right hands and in an organized manner it is very strong. 1v1 or team fight. I've never once said that mesmer is not powerful, and I've stated several times that I'd expect balance. I wouldn't expect the balance to happen in the form of class mechanism, hence likely mesmers will remain powerful in the right hands no matter how much balance there is. By that I mean, they're probably not going to take away illusions/shatters since this is a defining mechanism for mesmers. They're likely also not going to take away temporal distortion/illusive skills from mesmers because again, that is the theme of the profession. What we'd likely see is probably duration decrease, range limitation, and other things like that --- Which won't stop clever uses of these powerful skills, and hence you'd always find a good mesmer to be a strong component of tPvP.

Now does that mean it's "easy to play"? How are you defining "easy to play" anyways? Since there's no clear metric, I assumed that you mean 1v1 win and lose. I wouldn't agree with this metric at all, but that seems to be what most of these posts are talking about. Now if you're talking about team fights, then I'd ask again: what do you mean by easy? How is "portal" easier than "net turret"? How is "illusions" easier than "virtues"? I'm honestly not even sure what you mean by this now --- Do you mean it's easier to find a tPvP group as a mesmer? Or does this go back to your "personal experience" again, without any other metric? If so, then we really can't go on with this discussion: you say it's easy, I say it's not. You don't give me anything else to work with, so I can't even comment on it.

Here's a metric that I'd propose though: take a new player, let an experienced player give him a 10 min tutorial. Now both the new player and the experienced player make a PvP character of the same profession, same build, same stats. Now let them play against each other, and observe the win/lose ratio and how it changes over time. This curve would then suggest the "knowledge" required to play that particular profession over time including knowledge of strategies as well as knowledge of the profession mechanism itself. This same metric is used by academic studies on many gaming project, so I think it's a good fit here.

Now, are you telling me the difference between a very experienced/good mesmer and a new mesmer, regardless of specs, is smaller than any other professions in the game? You seemed to suggest that you've played mesmers a lot, and no doubt you probably encountered lots and lots of other mesmers since there are so many in the game --- Do you win over those new players? If not, then I really don't see how you can "own faces in PvP" when there are that many bandwagon mesmers around who can take you out. If you do, then that just proved my point: specs matters, but for most part mesmer is not an "easy profession".

If you'd like a more theoretical approach, here it is: mesmers, with unpredictable illusion spawn locations and illusion behaviours, and with heavy emphasis on the reaction of other players, is a profession with many chaotic variables. In order to be the "best mesmer there is", you need to have strategic options lining up for this vast number of possible scenarios --- This number correlates directly to "ease of profession". Elixir engineers have random effects (for example, either stealth or stability), and those ones who have options lined up for each possibility will be the ones who stand out from the crowed (even if he's hoping for the stealth, he can quickly adapt and make the most out of it if he gets stability instead). As for mesmers, a mesmer who keeps tabs on where his illusions are, which skills is he going to use next and what kind of/where the illusion is going to spawn, as well as all the CDs on both of his weapons, will be much more efficient than a mesmer who just "cast GS 2 and 3 on CD, mind wrack on CD, switch to sword when enemy gets close and press 2". Making models of the game play for each of the professions will reveal much about their complexity --- Just like modeling a chess game, except the decision criteria and general rules obviously differ. And for these models, even before doing all the hard work, a simple search in the literature will tell you that nested chaotic variables quickly increases the complexity of a system.

Unless, if by "good mesmer" you simply mean someone who can push buttons when they're off CD.

I'm just saying, I've no idea where you get the "mesmer is easy" idea from. The complexity of the profession is what draws me into playing one, it's the same reason that I've played ele and engi because I like juggling tons of skills in quick succession to find out what works and what doesn't. Upon learning that blind/aegis guardians need to know the fight and watch everything around them (condition on mobs, boon on oneself, locations of everyone and mobs animations, etc) to be an efficient "tank" in dungeons, I got intrigued and that's where my guardian started. Mesmer is overpowered in PvP? Maybe, I've never argued against that. If ANet gives it a nerf, I'd have no problem. But easy? No. I'd like to see your proof, or your logic behind it, if that's what you insist on.

LOLOLOLOL. You mean, the clones actually matter where they spawn? Wow you mean, they are a situational class? Holy crap, I think I'm just an extremely good GW2 player who simply owns with a Mesmer, maybe I should try a ranger next who knows I'd be rocking out with him as well.

#50 Xom GW2

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 09:15 AM

Well lets get it out of the way, I am elitist I min/max in every game I play.    I vent up with other elitist players and tend to be a top 1% pvper.  I know perfect balance is not possible but as it stands now this is the most unbalanced pvp game I have ever seen and its only going to get worst as people get used to the combat.

I really like GW2 combat, its a step in the right direction..... However there are massive issues that kind of combat bring into play when you have classes that have multiple 'built in' defensive mechanics.  

Lets look at a necro whose defense is based on stats, necro stays alive by building to take lots of hits, necros do not have many skills that avoid damage and even stun breaks are on very long cooldowns, the class does not even have stability other then putting 30 points into a useless line.    You can not spec 'glass cannon' or even a balanced build leaning to much towards damage with the class.

Now take Mesmer, multiple utilities and weapon skills that keep them alive along with outstanding damage and at least 4 viable builds.  Mes gets to use utilities and skills to stay alive freeing up stats to be used for anything the mes wants there is no need to stack defensive stats to not get insta killed.


Same goes for Warrior, while they do have more stun breaks and stability choices then a necro warriors also live on their stats limiting the options a warrior has in.   GS glass cannon warrior gives up alot more to kill things fast then a thief or mesmer.   If a warrior wants to bunker it gives up much more offensive ability then a Guardian.  

I worry that Anet can not balance the game because I see issues with the actual class mechanics Mesmer Guardian have the tools outside of stat stacking to do very well while Necro and Warriors do not have the build in utilities and tools forcing them to stat stack into roles.   How is Anet going to balance Mesmer with a million get out of jail types skills against classes that have near none?

I dont think they can without sweeping changes to mulitple classes.

Mesmer is EASY, its easier then a thief by far and thief is damn easy, but I learned on a necro so perhaps thats why I find mesmer so faceroll easy.

#51 Kutsus

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 12:43 PM

View PostXom GW2, on 01 November 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

Well lets get it out of the way, I am elitist I min/max in every game I play. I vent up with other elitist players and tend to be a top 1% pvper.  I know perfect balance is not possible but as it stands now this is the most unbalanced pvp game I have ever seen and its only going to get worst as people get used to the combat.

What other PvP games have you played from release? All the recent releases: Rift, SWTOR, AoC, shit even STO launched with game breaking imbalance big enough that skill gaps couldn't overcome it.

If you're talking about games such as DAOC and WoW, I have a sneaking feeling that you picked them up 5+ years in and experienced the kind of semi-balance that takes time because both of those games also launched with some incredibly broken abilities/classes.

Edited by Kutsus, 01 November 2012 - 12:45 PM.


#52 Vayra86

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 12:51 PM

View PostPlaypad, on 26 October 2012 - 06:15 PM, said:

the premise for trying to improve oneselves gameplay is to assume not being the very best already. but it's like almost everyone is aussuming to be the very best player worldwide and got beaten not due to his lack of knowledge concerning professions but the OPness of everyone who beats him.

its actually quite easier to consider every class is simply OP (even the own if they got beaten by it) instead of being self-aware.

This.

If you read the average forum post on prof balance and take it for granted, 95% of the playerbase is a world class Esports pro.

It's really pathetic to think you have the knowledge and insight to be able to decide what the best balance is.

Enjoy the damn game.

#53 Red_Falcon

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 01:25 PM

View PostShatteredz, on 31 October 2012 - 08:30 PM, said:

To be honest, people are calling everything besides ele and engi easy to play, just because that are the 2 classes that happen to be "hard" to play cus of more skill sets.

Apparently people here believes that more buttons = more player skill required, when player skill is actually reaction times and positioning.
By this logic all FPSs require no skill because bro, you have only one button to attack with!

#54 Skyro

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 05:01 PM

View PostXom GW2, on 01 November 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

Well lets get it out of the way, I am elitist I min/max in every game I play. I vent up with other elitist players and tend to be a top 1% pvper.  I know perfect balance is not possible but as it stands now this is the most unbalanced pvp game I have ever seen and its only going to get worst as people get used to the combat.

I really like GW2 combat, its a step in the right direction..... However there are massive issues that kind of combat bring into play when you have classes that have multiple 'built in' defensive mechanics.  

Lets look at a necro whose defense is based on stats, necro stays alive by building to take lots of hits, necros do not have many skills that avoid damage and even stun breaks are on very long cooldowns, the class does not even have stability other then putting 30 points into a useless line. You can not spec 'glass cannon' or even a balanced build leaning to much towards damage with the class.

Now take Mesmer, multiple utilities and weapon skills that keep them alive along with outstanding damage and at least 4 viable builds.  Mes gets to use utilities and skills to stay alive freeing up stats to be used for anything the mes wants there is no need to stack defensive stats to not get insta killed.


Same goes for Warrior, while they do have more stun breaks and stability choices then a necro warriors also live on their stats limiting the options a warrior has in.   GS glass cannon warrior gives up alot more to kill things fast then a thief or mesmer.   If a warrior wants to bunker it gives up much more offensive ability then a Guardian.  

I worry that Anet can not balance the game because I see issues with the actual class mechanics Mesmer Guardian have the tools outside of stat stacking to do very well while Necro and Warriors do not have the build in utilities and tools forcing them to stat stack into roles.   How is Anet going to balance Mesmer with a million get out of jail types skills against classes that have near none?

I dont think they can without sweeping changes to mulitple classes.

Mesmer is EASY, its easier then a thief by far and thief is damn easy, but I learned on a necro so perhaps thats why I find mesmer so faceroll easy.

I got to call BS on this. Top players don't really complain about the difficult of playing X class vs X class, the "skill level" to play an individual class/build in this game is low enough that a true "elitist" player would master it fairly quickly no matter what class it was. It's like bragging/complaining about forks and chopsticks. Chopsticks are harder to use generally speaking, but nobody gives a damn because they are both easy to use regardless. At the top level this game is like 99% team coordination/awareness/reflexes.

#55 Kutsus

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:34 PM

View PostRed_Falcon, on 01 November 2012 - 01:25 PM, said:

Apparently people here believes that more buttons = more player skill required, when player skill is actually reaction times and positioning.
By this logic all FPSs require no skill because bro, you have only one button to attack with!

Reaction time and positioning are important basics (as well as keybinding and knowing them by heart), but situational awareness, tactical understanding of other classes, and strategy are paramount. You can be the fastest button presser on earth but if you don't know the precise moment during an enemy's big-bad-attack animation to dodge it's not going to do anything for you. If you can look at the buffs and weapons someone has and instantly have a good idea what their spec and playstyle will be as well as have an idea of what animations to look out for, you're heading in the right direction.

Case in point, a thief with signets (including assasin's signet) is running straight at you and you see might stacks start popping up (they're hitting signets and/or venoms), start dodging and/or using any CC/immunity you have as soon as they hit ~900 range that could screw over their initial burst. A different thief with the heal signet is probably going to be a unicorn, so if you have time... swap out some condi cleansing and be ready for death blossom spam.

Edited by Kutsus, 01 November 2012 - 08:46 PM.


#56 Red_Falcon

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 08:53 PM

View PostKutsus, on 01 November 2012 - 08:34 PM, said:

Reaction time and positioning are important basics (as well as keybinding and knowing them by heart), but situational awareness, tactical understanding of other classes, and strategy are paramount. You can be the fastest button presser on earth but if you don't know the precise moment during an enemy's big-bad-attack animation to dodge it's not going to do anything for you. If you can look at the buffs and weapons someone has and instantly have a good idea what their spec and playstyle will be as well as have an idea of what animations to look out for, you're heading in the right direction.

Yes, those are included in what I call "timing", knowing classes and their anims for me is a mere requirement to be deemed a non-noob in pvp.
Perhaps I have too high standards but that's how I see it.

I'm just against the common thought among traditional MMO players here that player skill=number of buttons to press.
I have at least 500 hours of PvP so far and the class with the most buttons was also the easiest the easiest to hit the skillcap with for me, while the one that has less button but is very dependant on splitting the second and positioning correctly is the one that required the most from my skills.

Most of the posts on these forums against classes are hotjoin garbage, the truth is that against a skilled player your class is the least important factor.
But I guess hotjoin scrubs will never get to that point so they'll continue to fill the forums with complaints about the class that stomps noobs the easiest instead of trying to get their skill beyond the terribad mark.

#57 Wifflebottom

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 09:25 PM

Eh it sounds like people just want mesmers to gimp themselves, we have 3 decent damage builds: phantasms, shatters, and confusion people QQ and say phants and shatters are OP. So they nerf phantasms, if shatters are nerfed as well then we have ONE decent damage build and I don't want my source of damage to be reliant on my opponent spamming skills because that's way to unreliable and almost useless against people that know what their doing. What kind of logic is it to give a class one good damage build? Shatter burst can be avoided just as easily as 100b and I don't see many people QQing about 100b warriors anymore.

#58 MrForz

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 09:33 PM

Because one dodge pretty much ruins it all. It's funny though for the Shatter Mesmer because a single AOE just ruins it all. Refusing to adapt is a crime.

#59 CepaCepa

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Posted 01 November 2012 - 10:26 PM

View Postomar316, on 01 November 2012 - 03:01 AM, said:

LOLOLOLOL. You mean, the clones actually matter where they spawn? Wow you mean, they are a situational class? Holy crap, I think I'm just an extremely good GW2 player who simply owns with a Mesmer, maybe I should try a ranger next who knows I'd be rocking out with him as well.

Maybe you are. :) I hope I don't ever bump into you in PvP or WvW or you will slaughter my whole team without even knowing what your skills are called.

By the way, "situational" means things that are only effective at particular situations, which can be numerous or rare, but typically people use it to describe rather rare scenarios. Damaging skills have particular situations to use, but such situation (such as, in combat) is so regular in this context that we don't say they are situational. Escape skills have particular situations to use, but escape is also often necessary in combat, which makes it not really "situational". Situational skills are those that you don't even put on your skill bar unless there's a particular opportunity for it, such as portal. In a more forgiving sense, situational skills is where the effectiveness of such skill dramatically increase if used at the most opportune time (which doesn't happen TOO often), and dramatically decrease when it is not. Such skills are for example, portal.

View PostXom GW2, on 01 November 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

Well lets get it out of the way, I am elitist I min/max in every game I play. I vent up with other elitist players and tend to be a top 1% pvper.  I know perfect balance is not possible but as it stands now this is the most unbalanced pvp game I have ever seen and its only going to get worst as people get used to the combat.

... Things and things...

I worry that Anet can not balance the game because I see issues with the actual class mechanics Mesmer Guardian have the tools outside of stat stacking to do very well while Necro and Warriors do not have the build in utilities and tools forcing them to stat stack into roles.   How is Anet going to balance Mesmer with a million get out of jail types skills against classes that have near none?

I dont think they can without sweeping changes to mulitple classes.

Mesmer is EASY, its easier then a thief by far and thief is damn easy, but I learned on a necro so perhaps thats why I find mesmer so faceroll easy.

1. I reserve some doubt for you being an elite player. You've definitely got the elitist attitude though, good work on that. Why do I doubt your being an elite player? Because you talk about min/maxing and yet completely ignored my gigantic wall of theory. You don't give numbers, you draw all your conclusions from personal experience instead of logic/stats, that's not min/maxing. If you think min/maxing simply means picking out this and that stats for this and that spec, that precisely means you're not big enough of a nerd yet to call yourself a "min/maxer". If you got that wrong, who knows what other definition have you got wrong. So I'm not exactly convinced. HOWEVER, let's say you are for the sake of decency, I don't want this to become yet another "I am gewd!" "I don't believe you!" argument. And to be honest, yes you do point out some things in the game that suggests you do know somethings (however, again with the lack of support or the willingness to even try... ) Anyways. Let's say you're super good at all games, now what? You do realize that stating however good you are does not counter ANY of the points I've made?

2. Of course they won't be "balanced", if you've actually read my post and thought even slightly about it, you'd see the point. What you've described is that: to experienced players, complex classes tend to be more powerful than simpler classes due to having more "options", or states, simply due to the entropy or complexity. But this "power" relies completely on the player's ability to control such a system. Hence, proving my point that the mesmer is not "easy" in the sense that it is not "simple".

Like many have said before, you can't really demand balance in an RPG. There's additional criteria other than balance that they'd have to meet, sometimes those are much more important. Now, do you expect to see a mesmer, which is an RPG profession that focuses on illusions and temporal distortion, to be stripped away with temporal/spatial/illusive abilities? Or do you expect a mesmer, an RPG profession that in theory should be all about manipulating and controlling the mind of a sentient being, to be bad at control abilities and counters (either through skills or through game play)? Now lastly, do you expect a profession which by its very nature demands control abilities and counters, to be bad in PvP in the hands of a good player? I don't mind a nerf to mesmers, I don't mind even a 20% straight damage reduction, but you've gotta be realistic here --- What are you proposing? Make mesmers exactly the same as elementalists who shoots purple butterflies and call it "another profession"?

3. The only thing worse than writing up a gigantic post of theory and feeling like a complete nerd is to have the opposing argument completely and utterly ignore it. Again, what do you mean by "easy"? That's like saying "mesmers are so meh". I've got no idea what "meh" is. If you mean mesmers are simple to play, I just listed a whole wall of argument to state that it is not simple, if you want I can even do some preliminary math for you to illustrate the point. Yet you just ignored all of it. So what do you mean exactly?

4. Last point, and a summary. If you are an "elite player" like you've mentioned before, why are you worried about "balance" and "X and Y are easy"? You should instead focus on your own personal skill, which is FAR more important than "class balance" for an "elite player" such as yourself. Let's say mesmer is OP, broken, whatever. That simply means as you head up the ladder you'll see more and more very good mesmer players, and now all of a sudden class balance doesn't matter --- You need to play against other mesmers. And the mesmer who can consistently pull off 6 second daze on you is going to own you hard if you can't do the same. There's nothing unfair at all when you go up against other mesmers, you should be happy. AND you should be, again, working on being better than your already elite self instead of telling us how "easy" mesmer is (speaking of which, I still don't understand wth you're even referring to).

Edited by CepaCepa, 01 November 2012 - 10:45 PM.


#60 omar316

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:09 AM

View PostCepaCepa, on 01 November 2012 - 10:26 PM, said:

Maybe you are. :) I hope I don't ever bump into you in PvP or WvW or you will slaughter my whole team without even knowing what your skills are called.

By the way, "situational" means things that are only effective at particular situations, which can be numerous or rare, but typically people use it to describe rather rare scenarios. Damaging skills have particular situations to use, but such situation (such as, in combat) is so regular in this context that we don't say they are situational. Escape skills have particular situations to use, but escape is also often necessary in combat, which makes it not really "situational". Situational skills are those that you don't even put on your skill bar unless there's a particular opportunity for it, such as portal. In a more forgiving sense, situational skills is where the effectiveness of such skill dramatically increase if used at the most opportune time (which doesn't happen TOO often), and dramatically decrease when it is not. Such skills are for example, portal.


Yeah, I hope so too, I don't to make people rage quit.

View PostRed_Falcon, on 01 November 2012 - 08:53 PM, said:

Yes, those are included in what I call "timing", knowing classes and their anims for me is a mere requirement to be deemed a non-noob in pvp.
Perhaps I have too high standards but that's how I see it.

I'm just against the common thought among traditional MMO players here that player skill=number of buttons to press.
I have at least 500 hours of PvP so far and the class with the most buttons was also the easiest the easiest to hit the skillcap with for me, while the one that has less button but is very dependant on splitting the second and positioning correctly is the one that required the most from my skills.

Most of the posts on these forums against classes are hotjoin garbage, the truth is that against a skilled player your class is the least important factor.
But I guess hotjoin scrubs will never get to that point so they'll continue to fill the forums with complaints about the class that stomps noobs the easiest instead of trying to get their skill beyond the terribad mark.

Point taken. But consider this.
You get 2 nubs. You give them both a sharp knife. Tell them to fight, since they are both nubs of equal skill it should be 50/50 on who wins.
But the problem is a Mesmer is not just a sharp knife. It's a bloody motorised chainsaw from the get go. There is little to no way the nub with the sharp knife is going to beat the chainsaw. That's the problem with the Mesmer class. That is the complaints. You give the idea that once everyone gets to a proficient level they can beat any Mesmer, which is not a good way to judge and implement balance.

It's like saying this. Warriors get 100B at level 3. You use any other class to 1v1 a Warrior. You will not beat a Warrior who is using 100B until you get a trait at level 30. So for 30 levels, you will completely lose to a warrior with little to no chance of retaliation.

Of course I am exaggerating the example, but I do hope you get the idea. Any class can be a useful and deadly tool in a skilled player's hand. But, the tool itself must be of a based off an equal or base level players skill. No I'm not talking about people who press heal when they are full health just becasue the heal ability is on CD.

I am referring to players like me who can press buttons intelligently. Read tool tip and press button against enemies. Dodge when available and heal and stuff. You take 2 of the same skill set of players using 2 different classes, Memser being one of them. Mesmer will simply be not only an easier class to play but they'd have a higher probability and I dare say, sure to win.

View PostMr_Original, on 01 November 2012 - 09:25 PM, said:

Eh it sounds like people just want mesmers to gimp themselves, we have 3 decent damage builds: phantasms, shatters, and confusion people QQ and say phants and shatters are OP. So they nerf phantasms, if shatters are nerfed as well then we have ONE decent damage build and I don't want my source of damage to be reliant on my opponent spamming skills because that's way to unreliable and almost useless against people that know what their doing. What kind of logic is it to give a class one good damage build? Shatter burst can be avoided just as easily as 100b and I don't see many people QQing about 100b warriors anymore.

Again, you do not have a valid and consistent argument with 100B. To make 100B work, you need an active root or stun, a valid gap closer, and most importantly Frenzy. Frenzy itself is a risk as you take 50% more damage while using Frenzy. Worst 100B's range is while wide, is still melee. There is a lot of factors which can go wrong.

Mesmers while do not have the same burst as Warrior's 100B, they can do it while ranged and making 5 to 6 copies of themselves hit not 1 but 2 to 3 opponents. Fine, maybe that's just me, I'm too good. Unless I meet really good thieves or ranged, I get no problems with melee classes while I play my 5 hour old Mesmer. All the dps combined with the survivability.




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