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There are counters for everything, even the FOTM


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#61 Wifflebottom

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 01:22 AM

View Postomar316, on 02 November 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

Yeah, I hope so too, I don't to make people rage quit.



Point taken. But consider this.
You get 2 nubs. You give them both a sharp knife. Tell them to fight, since they are both nubs of equal skill it should be 50/50 on who wins.
But the problem is a Mesmer is not just a sharp knife. It's a bloody motorised chainsaw from the get go. There is little to no way the nub with the sharp knife is going to beat the chainsaw. That's the problem with the Mesmer class. That is the complaints. You give the idea that once everyone gets to a proficient level they can beat any Mesmer, which is not a good way to judge and implement balance.

It's like saying this. Warriors get 100B at level 3. You use any other class to 1v1 a Warrior. You will not beat a Warrior who is using 100B until you get a trait at level 30. So for 30 levels, you will completely lose to a warrior with little to no chance of retaliation.

Of course I am exaggerating the example, but I do hope you get the idea. Any class can be a useful and deadly tool in a skilled player's hand. But, the tool itself must be of a based off an equal or base level players skill. No I'm not talking about people who press heal when they are full health just becasue the heal ability is on CD.

I am referring to players like me who can press buttons intelligently. Read tool tip and press button against enemies. Dodge when available and heal and stuff. You take 2 of the same skill set of players using 2 different classes, Memser being one of them. Mesmer will simply be not only an easier class to play but they'd have a higher probability and I dare say, sure to win.



Again, you do not have a valid and consistent argument with 100B. To make 100B work, you need an active root or stun, a valid gap closer, and most importantly Frenzy. Frenzy itself is a risk as you take 50% more damage while using Frenzy. Worst 100B's range is while wide, is still melee. There is a lot of factors which can go wrong.

Mesmers while do not have the same burst as Warrior's 100B, they can do it while ranged and making 5 to 6 copies of themselves hit not 1 but 2 to 3 opponents. Fine, maybe that's just me, I'm too good. Unless I meet really good thieves or ranged, I get no problems with melee classes while I play my 5 hour old Mesmer. All the dps combined with the survivability.
First of all you can only have 3 illusion active at once. I don't know what you're talking about 5 to 6 copies so I don't think you've actually played a mesmer. When you shatter the clones run into melee range and if you're a shatter mesmer you likely use the skill where you get the shatter effect on yourself which you have to be in melee range to actually damage your target with it. Dodging when the clone gets near you does work and if your stunned use your stunbreak then dodge or use a block/counter skill. You should always know when mesmer burst is coming (3 illusions, probably switched to sword/pistol to stun+blurred frenzy) this is painfully obvious and one should be able to avoid it. My point was that shatter mesmers are almost as avoidable as 100b warrior but doesn't do nearly as much damage either. When I use mind wrack I'm typically in melee range.

Edited by Mr_Original, 02 November 2012 - 01:23 AM.


#62 Red_Falcon

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:24 AM

View Postomar316, on 02 November 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

snip

Admittedly, noobstomping is easiest with thief/mesmer/warrior than other classes because they access some cheap gimmicks that people who don't know their class will not be able to avoid.

Maybe it's just me but when I read all these complaints about thieves and mesmers I wonder why they're the easiest classes to beat for me.
A good Guardian or a good Warrior for instance give me a serious fight, but Mes/Thiev are both reliant on things that are terribly easy to counter.
Thieves -> pop anti-burst or blind BS.
Mesmers -> pop anti-burst when he's about to shatter or AoE their clones (earthsaker/whirlwind ftw)
Then they are walking bags of glory/badges.
A Guardian on the other hand is a one minute fight where I have to rupt the heal and make him waste his CDs or the tides turn against me.
Same against a good Warrior or Necro.

Classes that rely on wasting all their CDs at the beginning of the fight are quite easy for me, the real challenge I find is winning those minute-long fights.

#63 omar316

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:45 AM

View PostMr_Original, on 02 November 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

First of all you can only have 3 illusion active at once. I don't know what you're talking about 5 to 6 copies so I don't think you've actually played a mesmer. When you shatter the clones run into melee range and if you're a shatter mesmer you likely use the skill where you get the shatter effect on yourself which you have to be in melee range to actually damage your target with it. Dodging when the clone gets near you does work and if your stunned use your stunbreak then dodge or use a block/counter skill. You should always know when mesmer burst is coming (3 illusions, probably switched to sword/pistol to stun+blurred frenzy) this is painfully obvious and one should be able to avoid it. My point was that shatter mesmers are almost as avoidable as 100b warrior but doesn't do nearly as much damage either. When I use mind wrack I'm typically in melee range.

I think you are mistaken. You can have more than 3 at a time, using your utility skills as well.
Erm, I did mention intelligent nubs, not nubs who only press auto attack.

http://www.gw2db.com/skills/4089-decoy
http://www.gw2db.com...ntasmal-warlock
http://www.gw2db.com...0-mirror-images

Question is are you playing a Mesmer?

Edited by omar316, 02 November 2012 - 02:46 AM.


#64 Kutsus

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 02:56 AM

View Postomar316, on 02 November 2012 - 02:45 AM, said:

I think you are mistaken. You can have more than 3 at a time, using your utility skills as well.
Erm, I did mention intelligent nubs, not nubs who only press auto attack.

http://www.gw2db.com/skills/4089-decoy
http://www.gw2db.com...ntasmal-warlock
http://www.gw2db.com...0-mirror-images

Question is are you playing a Mesmer?

Are you trolling or actually serious? If you summon more clones while you have 3 out, the oldest ones disappear.

#65 omar316

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 03:24 AM

View PostKutsus, on 02 November 2012 - 02:56 AM, said:

Are you trolling or actually serious? If you summon more clones while you have 3 out, the oldest ones disappear.

Are you trolling or serious?
Good lord. It's the same explanation I gave with healing. You don't need to click heal at full health, just because Heal is not on CD.

Do you always press HS on your thief with no initiative? Or do you always spam Evicerate to dodge or move or close gaps?

Sorry, I just realised I worded my post wrongly. You can always have 3 clones up at all times was what I was meaning to say. I apologise for the confusion.

Edited by omar316, 02 November 2012 - 03:25 AM.


#66 Kutsus

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 03:38 AM

View Postomar316, on 02 November 2012 - 03:24 AM, said:

Are you trolling or serious?
Good lord. It's the same explanation I gave with healing. You don't need to click heal at full health, just because Heal is not on CD.

Do you always press HS on your thief with no initiative? Or do you always spam Evicerate to dodge or move or close gaps?

Sorry, I just realised I worded my post wrongly. You can always have 3 clones up at all times was what I was meaning to say. I apologise for the confusion.

Yeah... saying "You can have more than 3 at a time" certainly implies that you think there can be more than 3 up at a time.

Edited by Kutsus, 02 November 2012 - 03:39 AM.


#67 Xom GW2

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 07:30 AM

I guess time will tell.  Who are the pretenders and who are the real deals.


I have to comment on one thing.... top players dont complain that something very strong is also faceroll??????

LOL you have never pvped on vent in your life.


If we want to play the 'no top player would ever say that!' game....  here is my view.

Top players dont makes posts saying overpowered shit is balanced, fotm kids that get carried do that and when the balance comes they cant adapt and fade into bottom/med tier play.

Ill role the overpowered unbalanced shit in a games if I must,  but I dont pretend its balanced, what i will do is flame the * out of people defending the class.   I likely play it better then them anyway.   Because if you dont think a mes is overpowered if you are not dominating with it you are a terrible pvp gamer.Based on the posts here Omar is probably the only decent player.   The rest of you noob stomp in spvp and think you are pro.

Edited by Xom GW2, 02 November 2012 - 07:34 AM.


#68 sagasaint

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 11:05 AM

pro players dont complain because pro players already play the OP classes.
thats the thing with being pro, you must always ensure you are on the top of the wave

show me how many truly successful (worldwide scale) paid tourney teams run without double bunker (usually guardian) + mesmer.
show me how many truly successful paid tourney teams use variations of rangers necros warriors or eles with non-cheese builds their premades.


I love how people think that pro players play stupid, strange or improvised builds in an UP class and own with them

pro players focus on mastering the FOTM classes, they wouldnt waste a single second of their existance on something that is an atom less than optimum.


nerf the FOTM and pros wont waste their breath complaining on the forums
its a waste of time, time they could devote to finding out whats the next FOTM and run it all day long

they dont care 2 hoots what they play, as long as its empirically the best

Edited by sagasaint, 02 November 2012 - 11:21 AM.


#69 CepaCepa

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Posted 02 November 2012 - 09:31 PM

View PostXom GW2, on 02 November 2012 - 07:30 AM, said:

I guess time will tell.  Who are the pretenders and who are the real deals.


I have to comment on one thing.... top players dont complain that something very strong is also faceroll??????

LOL you have never pvped on vent in your life.


If we want to play the 'no top player would ever say that!' game....  here is my view.

Top players dont makes posts saying overpowered shit is balanced, fotm kids that get carried do that and when the balance comes they cant adapt and fade into bottom/med tier play.

Ill role the overpowered unbalanced shit in a games if I must,  but I dont pretend its balanced, what i will do is flame the * out of people defending the class.   I likely play it better then them anyway.   Because if you dont think a mes is overpowered if you are not dominating with it you are a terrible pvp gamer.Based on the posts here Omar is probably the only decent player.   The rest of you noob stomp in spvp and think you are pro.


First, I'm going to assume that these replies are at least partially targeted at my earlier response, which I'm not too sure because 1. You didn't target any of the things that I've mentioned earlier 2. You know, since you don't quote. So maybe I'm being a bit touchy and defensive here, but here goes my reply.

Have you read what I wrote? Since you're on the forum still, I assume communication is at least "somewhat" useful to you, and communication starts with reading what others have wrote, even if it is a long opposing argument. Let's be very clear here: I've never once said that mesmers are not powerful, the WHOLE argument started from an implication that playing a mesmer is "easy at all levels" and that "mesmers in any spec/build can faceroll others", which I have repeatedly disagreed with and repeatedly asked for a clarification on what you mean by "easy". I said time and time again that "mesmer will be very strong and likely always remain very strong in the hands of people who knows their stuff", and I've suggested a reason behind it: "because of the inherent complexity in the profession mechanisms as well as the philosophy behind the profession". My point is that it being powerful in that scenario does not mean it is "easy", you need knowledge and experience in order to uncover all of its "powerful potential". But you still kept referring "easy" and "powerful" like those are the same things, which I've not only stated that I disagree with, but also listed WHY I'd disagree.

If you in turn disagree with any of the reasons that I've mentioned, please state them, maybe I'm missing something, that is entirely possible. I'm not being defensive or sarcastic here, really, it is merely that if you don't target one of these reasons this argument will be going no where and we'd be stuck here saying egotistic things like "oh I'm a pro" and "no you're not", which as I mentioned, I do not want to go into. I probably shouldn't have putted that point in the earlier post to begin with, anything that involves people's ego, or my own, would always catch fire.

Let's just put this argument to rest. If you still want to go on about it, let me know more clearly, otherwise I'd just assume we're not talking about the "ease of the profession" anymore. And no, again I've got no interest in arguing "which profession is OP and which is not", all I had problem with is the whole notion of stating something as "easy" with no back-up and no clear definition.

View Postsagasaint, on 02 November 2012 - 11:05 AM, said:

pro players dont complain because pro players already play the OP classes.
thats the thing with being pro, you must always ensure you are on the top of the wave

show me how many truly successful (worldwide scale) paid tourney teams run without double bunker (usually guardian) + mesmer.
show me how many truly successful paid tourney teams use variations of rangers necros warriors or eles with non-cheese builds their premades.

I love how people think that pro players play stupid, strange or improvised builds in an UP class and own with them

pro players focus on mastering the FOTM classes, they wouldnt waste a single second of their existance on something that is an atom less than optimum.

nerf the FOTM and pros wont waste their breath complaining on the forums
its a waste of time, time they could devote to finding out whats the next FOTM and run it all day long

they dont care 2 hoots what they play, as long as its empirically the best

Precisely. It shouldn't matter to those "pro players" which profession is "OP". In the worst case they'll just do something like entire mesmer team versus entire other mesmer team. It's a chess game, a chess game where rules change as a rule of the game. Hence the fastest to adapt to new rules win the first match. The only one who may be concerned by this is ANet, if they want to promote profession diversity and all, but ultimately it doesn't even matter too much to them.

These "pro players" hopping around FOTM professions though, doesn't mean everyone else should just follow. As far as I'm concerned those "pro players" are not playing the same game with the rest of us. They're in their own league of e-sporting where winning a match is first priority and sometimes the sole reason for their play time. While most casual players, doesn't matter how good you are, simply play this game as an MMORPG where winning a match is very enjoyable, but not to the exclusion of everything else. Also, these "pro players" have presumably maximized their knowledge, skill, and experience in the PvP aspect of the game and make very few mistakes --- For such conditions, optimization becomes possible and meaningful, and everything comes down to modelling of the system and all kinds of equations/analysis. For casual players, many have not gotten even NEAR that cap, even the experienced casual players can rarely perform flawless game play. In those situations, profession balances is often overshadowed by the experience/knowledge one has with that profession.

Balancing between the professions also shouldn't matter to any bandwagon hoppers, they'll just hop to the next FOTM profession anyways. Much like the pro, but of course they're a lot less.... pro. Moreover, the OP of this post advocated (and I agree) that long term casual players of particular professions shouldn't care about these things either --- if you're very fond of certain professions, likely "to win" is not the only criteria in your books. You may like the theme. You may like the playstyle. You may have grown attached to your characters. And those things do not get "balanced" away. As a casual player (again, doesn't matter how good you are), you'd likely play against other casual players, and in this case personal skill/experience would matter more than profession balance, and sticking with a particular profession can provide you with just that.

Edited by CepaCepa, 02 November 2012 - 10:08 PM.


#70 Kutsus

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:05 AM

Have a feeling that I'm not the only one skipping these wall-of-text sized posts. If you can't state your point concisely or you have 50 points to state, people are going to skip it.

#71 antoninusthepious

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Posted 03 November 2012 - 12:11 AM

MMO PvP is a brutal cycle.  Crab mentality if you want to call it that way.  

1) Recognize the crab on top (the "OP" the FOTM Class
2) Cry nerf and bring him down
3) Next crab tries to climb out the bucket, everyone picks that crab and brings it down
4) Next crab tries to climb to the top of the bucket... everyone cries OP and pulls it down

Unless any of the dozen players on here play top high end sPvP, I would suggest playing the game and playing whatever class you enjoy... to enjoy.  

Context: A non high end top tier paid tournament player.

I got "insta killed 1shotted all my hp gone in 1 second" by a Thief while i was liesurely walking around the Eternal Battlegrounds picking flowers last night.  I lol'd.  I did not go to the forums and create a thread about OP 10K backstab, perma stealth CnD, Stealth bug delay in WvW, Hearseeker spam.  Nope.  I just simply... moved on.  I am at the least knowledgeable enough in the game to know that that Thief was geared / spec'd / traited / runed / sigil'd for max dps glass cannon build and would probably melt if discovered or if he makes a mistake.  He picks his fights more carefully than I do.  He enjoys playing in the sidelines and ganking somebody.  Whereas I enjoy being and playing a Guardian.  No, i dont need to reroll into the FOTM to enjoy playing the game.  And certainly won't waste my time in the forums about it either.  Why...?

Context: A non high end top tier paid tournament player.

Are you?

(Well if you are.. i commend you.  And  good luck on your endeavors communicating tirelessly in these forums, perhaps Anet will heed your call ^_^

Edited by antoninusthepious, 03 November 2012 - 12:13 AM.


#72 ak47_training

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Posted 04 November 2012 - 01:34 AM

Quote

If you want to see what people have been crying about, specc your mesmer 20 20 0 0 30 with emphasis on shatter, get full Berserker, and now pick 1v1 or 2v2 fights in hot joins. You simply need to experience both to know how big the difference really is.
Just for teh lulz, I did that.
Made my first eva mesmer. Picked up the spec you mentioned, got any available major traits with the word "shatter" in it. Picked up GS, S/P, three stunbreaker utilities (wub wub wub wub zoidberg.jpg)... And pwned faces of everyone in spvp the way I do on my elementalist, sometimes even better, MUCH MUCH better. Oh gawd the tears of those thieves I ripped apart were so tasty, the sweet vengeance on those cnd-steal-bs cheesers who 14k lol oneshot my not-full-bunker ele. Ah.

To do stuff at least somewhat properly in spvp on Ele I spent 100+ smth hours in various game modes, on mesmer... like 20 minutes reading tooltips and studying rotation on dummies.

Also never even used elite skill. That's how bad of a Mesmer am I.

The skill floor of Mesmer is incredibly low. Lower even than Thief's - it was much harder to perform as a Thief for me.

Skill ceiling may be above average, but that's different story.

Edited by ak47_training, 04 November 2012 - 01:40 AM.


#73 CepaCepa

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 05:49 PM

View PostKutsus, on 03 November 2012 - 12:05 AM, said:

Have a feeling that I'm not the only one skipping these wall-of-text sized posts. If you can't state your point concisely or you have 50 points to state, people are going to skip it.

I would've just state my point concisely, if I have authority over others. :)

Otherwise there's proving that needs to be done, and proving requires logic and structure and support evidence... But like I said, I should've refrained! Shouldn't get into the argument in the first place I guess...

#74 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 06:43 PM

View PostKutsus, on 02 November 2012 - 03:38 AM, said:

Yeah... saying "You can have more than 3 at a time" certainly implies that you think there can be more than 3 up at a time.

Actually you can. Use one of your shatter skills and while the 3 clones are running to your target you can summon new ones and for a brieft amount of time have more than 3 out for maximum confusion.

#75 Kutsus

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 07:23 PM

View PostAetherMcLoud, on 05 November 2012 - 06:43 PM, said:

Actually you can. Use one of your shatter skills and while the 3 clones are running to your target you can summon new ones and for a brieft amount of time have more than 3 out for maximum confusion.

That's obviously not what he meant. You're just arguing to argue.

#76 CepaCepa

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:10 PM

View Postak47_training, on 04 November 2012 - 01:34 AM, said:

Just for teh lulz, I did that.
Made my first eva mesmer. Picked up the spec you mentioned, got any available major traits with the word "shatter" in it. Picked up GS, S/P, three stunbreaker utilities (wub wub wub wub zoidberg.jpg)... And pwned faces of everyone in spvp the way I do on my elementalist, sometimes even better, MUCH MUCH better. Oh gawd the tears of those thieves I ripped apart were so tasty, the sweet vengeance on those cnd-steal-bs cheesers who 14k lol oneshot my not-full-bunker ele. Ah.

To do stuff at least somewhat properly in spvp on Ele I spent 100+ smth hours in various game modes, on mesmer... like 20 minutes reading tooltips and studying rotation on dummies.

Also never even used elite skill. That's how bad of a Mesmer am I.

The skill floor of Mesmer is incredibly low. Lower even than Thief's - it was much harder to perform as a Thief for me.

Skill ceiling may be above average, but that's different story.

Now that's something I can use! Differentiating between the skill floor and skill ceiling is a great start.

But on another note though, you only have 14K health on your ele? I'm not full bunker build either (0 0 10 30 30 for all the water cleanse, half/half on stats) but I've got nearly 20K health... :( And I rarely, rarely lose in 1v1 fights, and by rarely lose I don't mean I just RTL away lol (even though, I could, and sometimes I do), I meant I'd wear them down eventually, something like 30-40 seconds typically, within a cast cycle before fire grab and churning earth comes off CD.

I find that there's challenge in all the professions (obviously, or else I'd just shelf it due to it being too boring), but with time things become much easier for most. For example, my ele PvP play is now quite fluent, and by that I mean I don't need to think for more than a few milli-seconds what skill should I use next or which attunement should I switch to next. On my engineer I've also become very accustomed to all the kit swapping + skill combos. However, for my mesmer what was bugging me at the beginning is still somewhat bugging me right now: constantly checking where my illusions are and WHAT they are while on the move, all the while trying to be clear on standard PvP things such as what is the enemy animation right now, have he used his stun breaker/cleanse yet, etc. Yes, even without knowing where your illusions stand you'd still be able to win against many, especially if they're new, but I find that a well placed shatter (6 second daze instead of 3) or an intentional illusion composition (lining up iBerserker to cripple first, iduelist + feedback 4 seconds later) makes a very big difference when duelling experienced players. If I don't pay attention to illusions, yeah the opponent may die anyways admist the chaos, but chances are if they're good, I won't be able to catch them. After all, there's 5 second interval between phantasm attacks and 14-20 second CD on summon, if I don't pay attention to them I won't get maximal benefit out of potential combos.

I agree with what you mean there though, for ele it takes a while to get used to all the skill/attunement swapping, and it takes time to become very familiar with when to use what and which skill can be chained after which other skill. But once you become accustomed though you feel very fluent in your game play and you KNOW that you're doing the right things. With mesmer, you can win against others without really putting in too much attention for the details. But if you want to go that extra step and catch all the details, it is a daunting task and constantly force you to ask yourself "have I made the right decision last second". You'll often, and I mean often, notice your mistakes --- They're everywhere! Even if you end up winning all the time, you'll just think "oh wow I'm so lucky that they didn't catch/abuse that mistake". PvPing on my mesmer can be very exhausting, but maybe I shouldn't have put that much attention into it in the first place --- Maybe simply spamming will give me a win anyways lol...

#77 redslion

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Posted 05 November 2012 - 11:34 PM

I don't know they are overpowered or not, I don't care for I know there isn't much I can do about it.

Thieves: sometimes I'm focusing on someone to kill him, a thief comes from out my visual and deals the final burst to me, when I was just going to heal. Ok. Next time I fight the thief alone, I down him... and then it turns into a Wack-a-mole game, with the thief popping everywhere. And then he dances with heartseeker. And spins in place, even more gaily than Sailor Moon could do.

Mesmers: It gets full of clones and illusions, so sometimes by instinct I freak out because I think I'm getting heavily outrun. Nevermind, my fault. Ok. While I try to read all of the Mesmer movements, some enemy comes and takes me down, because to take down mesmer I need to focus 4 times more than with any other class, so I am less aware of what happens around me. Ok, sounds fair. I guess practice makes perfect about it. I manage to fight him 1 on 1, I get a good burst on him, he is low on health... and morphs me into a moa bird. And you run around defenseless and humilated, growing the suspect that all of them have agreed to save the morph PRECISELY for you in each battle.



I may agree on the fact that there are lots of counters for this, and maybe if I roll a mesmer and see how it works I could even manage to recognize when they cast morph and other stuff.

But are you surprised all the community HATES you?

Believe me, you should start to worry when the hate stops, because

A: All players have become thieves and mesmers
B: They are so badly nerfed they won't ever be a bother for anyone.

#78 ak47_training

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 06:36 AM

View PostCepaCepa, on 05 November 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

Now that's something I can use! Differentiating between the skill floor and skill ceiling is a great start.
These forums definitely could use more of this. Many otherwise very sound and reasonable posters do not differentiate between skill floor and skill ceiling. Spread the word :)

View PostCepaCepa, on 05 November 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

But on another note though, you only have 14K health on your ele? I'm not full bunker build either (0 0 10 30 30 for all the water cleanse, half/half on stats) but I've got nearly 20K health... :( And I rarely, rarely lose in 1v1 fights, and by rarely lose I don't mean I just RTL away lol (even though, I could, and sometimes I do), I meant I'd wear them down eventually, something like 30-40 seconds typically, within a cast cycle before fire grab and churning earth comes off CD.
I'm usually running Toughness/Healing builds (Cleric's or Valkyrie amulet) so I sit @ 2750 armor / 14k hp in most squishiest of builds I use. And yes, RtL Elementalist allows me to escape from most of sticky situations and basically choose my skirmishes... Unless I encounter a proper Thief, who is even more mobile. Some good Warriors (with GS and S/WH) are also able to get away / catchup with me sometimes.

View PostCepaCepa, on 05 November 2012 - 11:10 PM, said:

I find that there's challenge in all the professions (obviously, or else I'd just shelf it due to it being too boring), but with time things become much easier for most. For example, my ele PvP play is now quite fluent, and by that I mean I don't need to think for more than a few milli-seconds what skill should I use next or which attunement should I switch to next. On my engineer I've also become very accustomed to all the kit swapping + skill combos. However, for my mesmer what was bugging me at the beginning is still somewhat bugging me right now: constantly checking where my illusions are and WHAT they are while on the move, all the while trying to be clear on standard PvP things such as what is the enemy animation right now, have he used his stun breaker/cleanse yet, etc. Yes, even without knowing where your illusions stand you'd still be able to win against many, especially if they're new, but I find that a well placed shatter (6 second daze instead of 3) or an intentional illusion composition (lining up iBerserker to cripple first, iduelist + feedback 4 seconds later) makes a very big difference when duelling experienced players. If I don't pay attention to illusions, yeah the opponent may die anyways admist the chaos, but chances are if they're good, I won't be able to catch them. After all, there's 5 second interval between phantasm attacks and 14-20 second CD on summon, if I don't pay attention to them I won't get maximal benefit out of potential combos.

I agree with what you mean there though, for ele it takes a while to get used to all the skill/attunement swapping, and it takes time to become very familiar with when to use what and which skill can be chained after which other skill. But once you become accustomed though you feel very fluent in your game play and you KNOW that you're doing the right things. With mesmer, you can win against others without really putting in too much attention for the details. But if you want to go that extra step and catch all the details, it is a daunting task and constantly force you to ask yourself "have I made the right decision last second". You'll often, and I mean often, notice your mistakes --- They're everywhere! Even if you end up winning all the time, you'll just think "oh wow I'm so lucky that they didn't catch/abuse that mistake". PvPing on my mesmer can be very exhausting, but maybe I shouldn't have put that much attention into it in the first place --- Maybe simply spamming will give me a win anyways lol...
That's the Skill Ceiling talk :) I doubt I will ever reach skill ceiling on my mesmer - I really hate the whole randomness issue about him. I prefer to perfectly control everything related to my character and, if possible, minimize AI influence on my gameplay.
Elementalist "feels" much more fluent in that regard - I don't have to pay attention to my clumsy pets (most of the time!), and rotations are beatiful once you learn the craft.

Edited by ak47_training, 06 November 2012 - 06:38 AM.


#79 AetherMcLoud

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Posted 06 November 2012 - 05:20 PM

View PostKutsus, on 05 November 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

That's obviously not what he meant. You're just arguing to argue.

That's how I roll :D

#80 Lunacy Polish

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 02:55 PM

View PostKutsus, on 26 October 2012 - 01:04 PM, said:

<snip>
That's all I have to say, GL all.

1. I agree most of the things said about the FOTM/OP professions, etc. is QQ, and I'm guilty of it myself as anyone.  That said I've actually read some pretty good assessments of the situation why people are upset in their complaints and gained insight as to why certain professions tend to ruin my day/fun.  That insight has led to reassessing the paradigms I've used to combat these opponents and I started to do mitigate the effects of the OP/FOTM professions.

For example the forum discussions have helped me understand that the reason the thief pisses me off so much is they set the terms of each battle, and as such set them in situations favorable to them.  Now that I know that, I realize that to prevent frustration, the best thing to do is turn those situations around with the abilities I have, and when the thief escapes... let them go.  Just let them go, you're never going to catch them except in very specific circumstances where the thief player makes a mistakeke.  Once I accepted that's how it was, my enjoyment of the game increased.

The point is venting, if done a bit more calmly than it is commonly done and listing specific circumstances and reasons what is happening is frustrating, is part of the solution.  I will grant you the majority of the venting is so rage filled and inarticulate it doesn't help anything however.

2. I haven't rerolled per se because I still play my Warrior mostly, but I am working up a thief.  It's not to necessarily jump on the bandwagon, I have found it's a very well designed class that's completely different from the warrior and fun to play.  Also it actually makes me appreciate the Warrior more realizing that there are times the Warrior is better off even though I believe the Thief profession is overall a greater and more powerful profession.  I realize this is strange but I learn in certain ways, I have to touch and do things to really understand what's going on, I can't "theorycraft" my way around a tough opponent.  I have to touch and play the thing I'm so weak against to understand why I lose.  So this has in fact led to the opposite of boredom.

Also I laugh at the idea that I'm behind some learning curve.  I am the player I am regardless, whether I'm better or worse than other players is immaterial because I'm always best off improving my ability to do things to be my personal best even if my personal best isn't the best in the game.  Playing other professions is teaching me things I didn't know before, I play everything a little better as a consequence.

Furthermore some profession mechanics are just better designed for what they do than others.  Thiefs are beautifully designed to do what they were intended to do, they have very few abilities which are stinkers relative to other professions.  With other professions you are fighting to compensate for bad design, bugs, and the interface problems you have.  With the thief the way the abilities interact with the game world is intuitive, all of my abilities are highly effective when used properly, and I'm not battling the silly cooldown mechanic on weapon skills that holds my Warrior/Guardian/Necro back.

Hence I as a player am more effective as the thief than I am as other professions in many contexts, however this does nothing to inhibit my improvement as a player.

3.  Again I've gotten better at playing my regular character because I've gone against everything you've said here.  When my warrior meets a thief now I know what to do, and when I lose to a thief I see it coming a mile away because I now recognize the circumstances under which I will lose and I don't get so frustrated.  I'm not saying you are 100% wrong, maybe more insular/introverted INTJ types can overcome the problems better by retreating into their own heads exclusively.  I do some of that myself, but I need some personal data to work with first, I need the wholistic view of the situation.

Three points of my own:

A) Some professions are just inherently better than others.  Guardians, Mesmers and Thieves are just better at the moment even if there are problems within those professions.  A better solution to this situation would often be to retool professions that don't work as well to be more appealing to play (I have some ideas for making Warriors more fun without making them any more powerful), but that's a lot harder than nerf the one or two that stand out.  Sometimes you need to nerf something down, but that's become the knee jerk reaction rather than one of many options to consider. That's sad, game devs should try harder.

B) Professions/classes go in cycles over the life of the game as things are chaged and new discoveries are made.  I wouldn't be shocked if right now there isn't some crazy powerful Necro build that dominates everyone and everything and it's just not common knowledge yet, or if in a year Elementalists are suddenly at the top of the power tiers.  Now I realize there are games where certain professions never rise and only fall (DAoC Wizards for example got one patch to the earth line, but there was never a fix for most issues the Team Lead reported for years on end), and others where the same people stay on top the whole time regardless (WoW Paladins have always had it good), but the beauty of GW2 is it's not that hard to have 2 or 3 different professions on your account and you can do most of your favorite content at most levels.  Even the stuff you can only do at 80 isn't that hard to work up to in a reasonable amount of time.

C) I will complain about OP people until I'm blue in the face at times, but this is still one of the most balanced things I've ever played, I know it's hard to get balance right and I don't expect they ever will.  If I thought it was completely broken I'd have quit already.  The complaining at least means people are still playing and trying to find a way to prosper in the game, even if some employ a deplorable whine for nerfs as their coping tactic this does not diminish valid observations.

#81 Battou62

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Posted 07 November 2012 - 06:54 PM

This thread gave me cancer. Most Guru threads give me cancer.

#82 CepaCepa

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Posted 08 November 2012 - 08:06 PM

View PostBattou62, on 07 November 2012 - 06:54 PM, said:

This thread gave me cancer. Most Guru threads give me cancer.

Quaggan. Quaggan is the solution to Cancer. :)

#83 ArcherHenchman

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 01:00 PM

View PostMr_Original, on 02 November 2012 - 01:22 AM, said:

First of all you can only have 3 illusion active at once. I don't know what you're talking about 5 to 6 copies so I don't think you've actually played a mesmer. When you shatter the clones run into melee range and if you're a shatter mesmer you likely use the skill where you get the shatter effect on yourself which you have to be in melee range to actually damage your target with it. Dodging when the clone gets near you does work and if your stunned use your stunbreak then dodge or use a block/counter skill. You should always know when mesmer burst is coming (3 illusions, probably switched to sword/pistol to stun+blurred frenzy) this is painfully obvious and one should be able to avoid it. My point was that shatter mesmers are almost as avoidable as 100b warrior but doesn't do nearly as much damage either. When I use mind wrack I'm typically in melee range.

This is entirely false and you probably know better if you run a mesmer.

A mesmer can dodge near you, dom sig, switch to sword, then immobilize into frenzy while popping melee range mirror image into mind wrack. Additionally, you can setup with a dodge roll towards, then cry of frustration+ dodge into immobilize/image/wrack/frenzy. There's plenty of other setups available too. Not a single one of the conditions you listed is required to hit off the spike.

You have multiple ways of forcing an opponent to take the spike. Physical proximity opens up a LOT of setups. Dodge + Mirror is a full 4 person instant wrack if you're close. Mesmer spikes are NOT telegraphed.

#84 RandolfRa

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 03:41 PM

View PostArcherHenchman, on 09 November 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

Additionally, you can setup with a dodge roll towards, then cry of frustration+ dodge into immobilize/image/wrack/frenzy. There's plenty of other setups available too. Not a single one of the conditions you listed is required to hit off the spike.
Ya thats my favorite: dodge towards to right, dodge towards to left, ileap + blurred frenzy & shatter.

#85 Asomal

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 07:29 PM

View PostArcherHenchman, on 09 November 2012 - 01:00 PM, said:

This is entirely false and you probably know better if you run a mesmer.

A mesmer can dodge near you, dom sig, switch to sword, then immobilize into frenzy while popping melee range mirror image into mind wrack. Additionally, you can setup with a dodge roll towards, then cry of frustration+ dodge into immobilize/image/wrack/frenzy. There's plenty of other setups available too. Not a single one of the conditions you listed is required to hit off the spike.

You have multiple ways of forcing an opponent to take the spike. Physical proximity opens up a LOT of setups. Dodge + Mirror is a full 4 person instant wrack if you're close. Mesmer spikes are NOT telegraphed.

This and the fact that the clones won't stop following you till they shatter, so you have to dodge in the right damm second. But don't forget to pay attention to the phantasms (especially iZerker that can be cast out of LoS and will follow you till the end of times even if the mesmer is not fighting anymore) and of course, the mesmer himself bursting you down ( if you are not Moa'd yet...)

#86 ArcherHenchman

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Posted 09 November 2012 - 11:57 PM

View PostAsomal, on 09 November 2012 - 07:29 PM, said:

This and the fact that the clones won't stop following you till they shatter, so you have to dodge in the right damm second. But don't forget to pay attention to the phantasms (especially iZerker that can be cast out of LoS and will follow you till the end of times even if the mesmer is not fighting anymore) and of course, the mesmer himself bursting you down ( if you are not Moa'd yet...)
If the clones were shattered far enough away from you so that you can see them running towards you, you have quite a few options. Timing shouldn't be a problem, just practice. You can also blind the clones to avoid damage, although I'm not sure that works on every shatter type. Sure does on wrack, though.

#87 Shinimas

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Posted 11 November 2012 - 08:24 PM

Quote

First of all you can only have 3 illusion active at once. I don't know what you're talking about 5 to 6 copies so I don't think you've actually played a mesmer.

Uh, I definitely see more than 3 illusions up at the same time when fighting a Mesmer. I don't know what this is about.




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